pink sapphire lab or natural

[3hearts]

Aside from the vendor telling you "yes its a natural pink sapphire," is there any way of telling the difference between lab created pink sapphire vs. natural pink saphhire?

thanks in advance,
Lyn

 

[valeria101]

Lab reports and appraisals are just meant for that.


By just looking at it in the shop - not really, it is not easy to get an educated guess most of the time. I surely can''t but this is not too relevant. No one advices this sort of bootleg gemology as far as I know.


My 0.2

 

[bar01]

Confusing terms - even the term Natural is subject to confusion. The only way to confirm any of this is to have an independent lab/appraiser check your gem out.

 

[strmrdr]

The cheap synthetics you can usually tell, the good ones you cant without the right equipment and skill.

I always assume its synthetic unless its either proven otherwise or I trust the seller to know the difference and be honest about it and am only willing to pay accordingly.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

If you were a guy, I would tell you to give it the infallible "fiancee'' test".

Give it to your fiancee'' as a natural pink sapphire, and if she throws it in your face the next day you know it is a synthetic.

 

[The Joker]

Sometime the Experts can''t even tell the difference between a real and lab grown corundum.

I found this article awhile back. It''s from a Smithsonian news release:

"Since 1983 when Judith Osmer started the J.O. Crystal Co., gemologists voiced concern over the difficulty of recognizing a cultured ruby from a natural ruby. The result is that every Ramaura ruby has a tiny identifier built into its chemistry to aid gemologists in its identification."

The whole Smithsonian press release from Feb 2002, can be found here.

http://www.mnh.si.edu/publicaffairs/releases/ramaura.pdf

There is also an article about Judith''s home grown rubies in the May 2005 issue of "Rock and Gem."

Joker....

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 11/29/2005 10:44:01 AM
Author: The Joker

Sometime the Experts can''t even tell the difference between a real and lab grown corundum.

Although the Ramaura ruby is one of the more difficult synthetics to detect, and the identifier is helpful, I''m not aware of any synthetic gemstones which a trained gemologist with the proper equipment can not detect.

 

[The Joker]

Date: 11/29/2005 9:29:52 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Date: 11/29/2005 10:44:01 AM
Author: The Joker

Sometime the Experts can''t even tell the difference between a real and lab grown corundum.

Although the Ramaura ruby is one of the more difficult synthetics to detect, and the identifier is helpful, I''m not aware of any synthetic gemstones which a trained gemologist with the proper equipment can not detect.

Richard:

This is from the article in "Rock and Gem" May 2005.

"The GIA gemologists agreed that Osmer''s Ramaura Cultured Rubies were very, very good, the best they had ever seen. In fact they were so good that they posed a serious problem. In the past, GIA gemologist, after studying countless natural and synthetic rubies, had always been able to positively differentiate between the two. But only after lengthy laboratory analysis could they positively differentiate Osmer''s crystals from natural rubies - and then only some of the time."

If you would like me to scan the article and e-mail it to you, just send me your e-mail address.

Joker....

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 11/30/2005 8:35:28 AM
Author: The Joker

''The GIA gemologists agreed that Osmer''s Ramaura Cultured Rubies were very, very good, the best they had ever seen. In fact they were so good that they posed a serious problem. In the past, GIA gemologist, after studying countless natural and synthetic rubies, had always been able to positively differentiate between the two. But only after lengthy laboratory analysis could they positively differentiate Osmer''s crystals from natural rubies - and then only some of the time.''

The Ramaura rubies are indeed the best synthetics. However, I would disagree with the Rock & Gem statement. A gemologist trained in the identification of corundum with the proper equipment is not going to ID a Ramaura as a natural ruby. They are flux grown, with the distinguishing characteristics of a flux grown ruby. They are cleaner than most flux grown rubies, which makes their identification more difficult, but not impossible to a properly trained and properly equipped gemologist.

Mind you I''m talking about "postgraduate" gemology here, not your average gemology. But then again, the average gemologist should be passing on this kind of work and sending it to the gemologist with the proper training and equipment.

 

[The Joker]

Richard:

I''m also talking about "postgraduate" gemology here, and not your average gemology.

You are right that Osmer uses a flux technique.
But she sent samples of her rubies to GIA laboratories as a professional courtesy.
All I am saying is that there may be some cultured corundum that even you might not be able to distinguish from natural.

Joker....

Here''s two more paragraphs from the article.

 

[The Joker]

If anyone is interested in learning how to cook up your own rubies,
you can find the recipe here:

http://www.ramaura.com/recipe.htm

Joker....

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 11/30/2005 2:26:21 PM
Author: The Joker
If anyone is interested in learning how to cook up your own rubies,

you can find the recipe here:

LOL! I used to spend quite a bit of time chatting with Judith and her associate Virginia at various shows, Santa Monica especially. I got to know both quite well. Judith was always adamant that cat hair was the truly vital ''secret ingredient.'' Unfortunately she didn''t specify what kind of cat -- long hair, short hair, Siamese (a likely candidate!) or...?

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 11/30/2005 2:00:22 PM
Author: The Joker

I'm also talking about 'postgraduate' gemology here, and not your average gemology.

You are right that Osmer uses a flux technique.

But she sent samples of her rubies to GIA laboratories as a professional courtesy.

All I am saying is that there may be some cultured corundum that even you might not be able to distinguish from natural.

Joker....

The introduction of Ramaura synthetic ruby was very similar to the introduction of HPHT treated and synthetic diamonds.

It caused an uproar and consternation in the industry at first, with requests to manufacturers to identify their product with dopants or identifiers of some kind.

But consequent intensive study on how to distinguish the natural from the synthetic revealed conclusive results and alleviated trade panic.

You can send me all the Ramaura and flux rubies you like. I will bet you a thousand dollars per stone that I will identify them correctly as synthetics.

 

[The Joker]

Date: 11/30/2005 10:46:56 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Date: 11/30/2005 2:00:22 PM
Author: The Joker

I''m also talking about ''postgraduate'' gemology here, and not your average gemology.

You are right that Osmer uses a flux technique.

But she sent samples of her rubies to GIA laboratories as a professional courtesy.

All I am saying is that there may be some cultured corundum that even you might not be able to distinguish from natural.

Joker....

You can send me all the Ramaura and flux rubies you like. I will bet you a thousand dollars per stone that I will identify them correctly as synthetics.

LOL
Richard S:
That is not much of a bet

.
If I sent you 10 rubies, and you only got half of them right, you wouldn''t loose anything.

Joker....

 

[strmrdr]

This thread is funny, If Richard S. says he can do it he can do it.
Those that have gotten to know his skill levels thru the years have no doubt he can do it.
Those that know how well equipped his lab is are double sure.
Send 10 stones and you would owe him $10000
Id be tempted to put money on it myself if I had any :}

 

[The Joker]

Date: 12/1/2005 7:27:53 AM
Author: strmrdr
This thread is funny, If Richard S. says he can do it he can do it.
Those that have gotten to know his skill levels thru the years have no doubt he can do it.
Those that know how well equipped his lab is are double sure.
Send 10 stones and you would owe him $10000
Id be tempted to put money on it myself if I had any :}

Good morning strmrdr:

My point was:

Send him 10 stones, he only has to get 5 of them right to break even.

My other point was that some cultured rubies were sent to GIA with out any trace elements, and they (with all their equipment) were unable to detect the cultured from real 100% of the time. LOL, I guess I didn''t realize that Richard S was that much better then GIA Gem Trade Lab.

Joker....

 

[strmrdr]

that was 1983.. things change... tools change.. procedures change.
The sas2000 would make short work of them today more than likely.

As Richard S. said this happens all the time a new treatment/synthetic comes up and everyone gets all bent about it then some very smart people get to work on it and come up with a procedure to detect it and the best labs/appraisers add the new procedure to their tool chain and the crisis is over.

 

[The Joker]

Date: 12/1/2005 8:57:51 AM
Author: strmrdr
that was 1983.. things change... tools change.. procedures change.
The sas2000 would make short work of them today more than likely.

Strmrdr:

It wasn''t 1983... J.O. Crystal Co. started in 1983.
Here''s the link to the GIA article, Dated March 26, 2003.

http://www.gia.edu/newsroom/608/11155/news_release_details.cfm

I have yet to see any lab report that does not have some sort of disclamer saying something to effect "This report is not a guarantee" or "It is the opinion of this lab".
Experts disagree.

A bet with Richard S. is one that I couldn''t possibly win. I have no way to prove that he might be wrong. Experts disagree.

It would turn into a debate like the one we have about Fancy Brown Diamonds. Experts disagree.
(But then I''m not an expert, just a interested "Rock Hound" who likes pretty gems of all types

.)

Joker....

 

[devientdrow]

Sorry if this has already been said, i''m at work and need to be sneaky with the internet!! I LOVE pink sapphires. I have an opal (square, like an emerald cut, I LOVED that considering most opals I see are oval)white gold ring with two emerald cut pink sapphires next to it. They are lab created. I purchased a pair of emerald cut NATURAL pink sapphires to go with it and you can barely tell the difference. The only thing is the natural, at least in my set, is somewhat paler than the lab. For my bday my husband got me a GORGEOUS diamond and lab created pink sapphire necklace, which is much brighter than the ones in my ring or my earrings and at first he was upset thinking that I needed it to match exactly but I LOVED it!! I have definatly noticed that some of the lab created gems can come out SOOOOO very bright and vivid and it''s beautiful, and cheaper!

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Hi Joker. The only reason I stress the point is because your assertion gives people the impression that there is no guarantee that the ruby they own or are considering buying is natural, and that even the experts can't tell for sure.

This incorrect information could unnecessarily alarm people. The truth is that the vast majority of natural stones can be readily ID'd as natural, and the vast majority of synthetic stones (Ramaura included) can be readily ID'd as synthetic. The very small percentage which can not be readily ID'd by the average gemologist can be positively ID'd by a gemologist with advanced training and equipment.

The paragraph below is taken from the link you supplied to the GIA article:

"Ramaura synthetic rubies contain all the physical, chemical and optical properties of their natural counterparts, with the exception of unique inclusions caused by flux material found in a number of gems."

Nowhere in that article does it say that the GIA Gem Trade Laboratory can not identify Ramaura rubies. Judith Osmer originally sent the rubies to GIA just like most every synthetic manufacturer with a new synthetic does, to give them time to study the stones and find their distinguishing characteristics. That, and adding a "dopant" to give a clue to the rubies synthesis was good marketing hype on Ramaura's part, giving the impression that the rubies are so good that gemologists can't distinguish them without help from the manufacturer.

I don't think the Rock & Gem article is even referring to gemologists at the GIA Gem Trade Laboratory, Joker. It just says "GIA Gemologists". That could be any graduate of GIA they are quoting.

Journalists love to sensationalize the "undetectable synthetic" issue. It happens all the time.

Since I make my living at this, and fine colored stones is one of my areas of specialty, I tend to keep up on the detection of synthetics. I am unaware of any synthetic corundum on the market which a trained gemologist with proper equipment can not detect, Ramaura or otherwise.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 12/1/2005 7:43:54 AM
Author: The Joker

My other point was that some cultured rubies were sent to GIA with out any trace elements, and they (with all their equipment) were unable to detect the cultured from real 100% of the time.

Joker....

First of all, you're talking about over two decades ago. Gemology, instrumentation, and detection techniques have come a long way since then. Whenever a new synthetic comes out, gemology, instrumentation and detection techniques are spurred to advance accordingly.

Second, you're talking about GIA's intial examination of Ramauras before they underwent the intense study which created the improved detection techniques.

Third, the very small percentage of synthetics which they were initially unable to detect were flawless stones. This in itself is a major indicator of synthesis. I don't know any knowledgeable dealers who would purchase a flawless ruby as natural.

Fourth, and off topic, I find it interesting that the Ramaura inventors were not able to sell their company when they wanted to retire. They attempted to do so, but couldn't find any buyers. You would think buyers would line up to purchase a company which could produce "undetectable" rubies, wouldn't you?

 

[bar01]

Date: 12/1/2005 7:27:53 AM
Author: strmrdr
This thread is funny, If Richard S. says he can do it he can do it.
Those that have gotten to know his skill levels thru the years have no doubt he can do it.
Those that know how well equipped his lab is are double sure.
Send 10 stones and you would owe him $10000
Id be tempted to put money on it myself if I had any :}

I''ll second that !

 

[The Joker]

Date: 12/1/2005 11:38:15 AM
Author: Richard Sherwood


Fourth, and off topic, I find it interesting that the Ramaura inventors were not able to sell their company when they wanted to retire. They attempted to do so, but couldn''t find any buyers. You would think buyers would line up to purchase a company which could produce ''undetectable'' rubies, wouldn''t you?

Richard S.:
I have no idea why they couldn''t sell the company.
If I had to guess I would guess that it was because the two Key People (Judith and Virginia) retired.
I, for one, would have no idea how to cook-up a ruby.

I understand where you are coming from, and I do not want to cause panic in the ruby or sapphire industry. I just thought that this was a good topic for discussion and I''m just curiously interested.

How is your "guaranteed appraisal" worded and how many rubies have you written reports on in the last 25-30 years that were natural?
Have you ever come across a Ramaura ruby, and if so, how did you tell that it was a cultured or natural, other then the rare earth element that was added for detection purpose? I don''t want you to give up any trade secrets.

Once again Richard, I want to stress the fact that I am not trying to argue with you, it''s just that I am Culturally Interested. (Pun intended).

Joker....

 

[The Joker]

P.S.
Pictures would be great....

Joker....

 

[bettyann]

I am curious about the debate you mention about Fancy Brown Diamonds. What is the debate?
Thanks.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 12/1/2005 1:10:56 PM
Author: The Joker

I have no idea why they couldn't sell the company.

If I had to guess I would guess that it was because the two Key People (Judith and Virginia) retired.

Judith and Virginia were not only the two Key People, they were the owners.

I understand where you are coming from, and I do not want to cause panic in the ruby or sapphire industry. I just thought that this was a good topic for discussion and I'm just curiously interested.

Sure, it's fun now that it's balanced somewhat.

How is your 'guaranteed appraisal' worded and how many rubies have you written reports on in the last 25-30 years that were natural?

Good Lord, I have no idea. I started in the retail estate jewelry business 26 years ago, in a medium to high end operation with six stores in the Tampa Bay area. My primary education came from "hands on" instruction by a third generation master gem dealer, my secondary education from the GIA and my tertiary education came from my role as buyer for the six stores and top salesperson. During those seven years I must have bought, sold & appraised several thousand rubies.

The next twelve years I owned my own fine estate jewelry store, dealing in medium to high end gemstone jewelry. I must have bought, sold & appraised several thousand more rubies during that period of time.

The past six years I've been appraising only. I'm not sure how many rubies I've appraised during that time, but the number of appraisal reports I've issued has topped the 21,000 mark.

I'm not sure what you mean by "guaranteed appraisal", but when I make a positive indentification I list it as "conclusive".

Have you ever come across a Ramaura ruby,

Yes. Hundreds. One of my good friends here in Sarasota was a distributor for them for two decades. He's a gemologist as well, and we used to get together after closing time and study them for hours. He was one of the fellows that Judith & Virginia asked if he'd be interested in buying their operation.

and if so, how did you tell that it was a cultured or natural, other then the rare earth element that was added for detection purpose? I don't want you to give up any trade secrets.

There's no secret to it. The methods of detection are well publicized. Richard Hughes gives a great overview in his book Ruby & Sapphire, and Gubelin's & Koivula's PhotoAtlas of Gemstone Inclusions has two dozen photos of characteristic inclusions of the Ramaura ruby, along with dozens of the other types.

By the way, that "rare earth element" which was added as a "dopant" to help in identification creates a slightly more orange-yellow fluorescence than normal under ultraviolet light. However, since the dopant tends to concentrate on the surface regions of the crystals, these fluorescent areas are often removed during the cutting process, leaving no tell-tale fluorescence that you can count on.

The thing that creates the characteristic inclusions of flux grown rubies is the relatively rapid growth (Ramaura reported 2 to 3 months, Chatham reports up to 8 months) in comparison to natural ruby (millions of years). This rapid growth along with the flux used in synthesis leaves telltale signs in the stone's inclusionary universe.

You only have to know what to look for. Chief among this is the residual unmelted fluxes used in the synthesis (lead monoxide, lead fluoride, bismuth oxide or lanthanum oxide). These fluxes show up under oblique illumination as yellowish to orange in body color, with a granular texture and distinctly different appearance than inclusions found in natural ruby.

Other distinguishing characteristics which are peculiar to the Ramaura are triangular and spindle shaped color "patches"; brown toned color patches; unusual growth zones, bands & lines; blank "fields"; unusually shaped fluid inclusions and "crazed" flux-filled negative crystals, among others.

In addition the maturing fields of UV/VIS, infrared & Raman laser spectrophotometry is rapidly giving gemologists a database which offers conclusive evidence of synthesis of all types, including Ramaura.

Once again Richard, I want to stress the fact that I am not trying to argue with you, it's just that I am Culturally Interested. (Pun intended).

Sure, no problem. I'm not trying to argue either, but just put things in the proper perspective. Thanks for the opportunity to do so.

 

[The Joker]

Date: 12/1/2005 7:30:57 PM
Author: bettyann
I am curious about the debate you mention about Fancy Brown Diamonds. What is the debate?
Thanks.

Here''s a link to an old discussion on Fancy Brown Diamonds. There are other ones.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/colored-diamonds.11417/

Richard S:
Thanks for the informative information above. Now I learned something. If I have a Natural ruby that I want a report on, I will be sending it to you for a "Conclusive Lab Report".

LOL But, I still don''t think it would a "Fair Bet". All you have had to do would be flip a coin - Heads for natural and tails for cultured. You wouldn''t need any equipment at all to break even, just even luck.
Have a Good Day, and thanks again for the information.

Joker....

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 12/2/2005 7:42:44 AM
Author: The Joker

LOL But, I still don''t think it would a ''Fair Bet''. All you have had to do would be flip a coin - Heads for natural and tails for cultured. You wouldn''t need any equipment at all to break even, just even luck.

Joker....

Actually, I would lose, big time, with the first stone I misidentified. My reputation would be toasted.

Nice chattin'' with ya.

 

[jszweda]

Lyn,

There are a few ways to tell and at the risk of repeating what others have said on here, a good gem lab should be able to tell you without an issue. However, there are a few things you can look for that will tell you that it is more likely one vs. the other.

First of all, a good lab created pink sapphire is going to be a little deeper in color than the most intense natural pinks that you see. For instance, if you noticed a pink tourmaline is a little deeper shade of pink than other pink stones, a lab created pink is almost that shade minus some of what appears to be a slight tone in a tourmaline. So if it looks just a tad too deep for what a natural pink should be, that may give you a clue.

However, if you have a 10x loupe, this can tell a more accurate story. If you don''t have one, ask the jeweler for their loupe. With very few exceptions, there are going to be some sort of inclusions in that sapphire. It''s very rare to see a any sapphire without and visible inclusions under 10x magnification.

If you see something like a swirly hair in there like a cycloid, it''s likely a natural inclusion in the stone. You may see some internal fractures that occur naturally in those stones-no big deal there. If you see something like an insect wing or something under the loupe, that''s a dead give away there as well. If you see anything that looks like halo''s or bubbles in it, chances are it''s a typical heat treated sapphire. There is an article on the GIA''s site that talks about that and what to look for under a microscope. The bottom line is that if it''s lab, it''s going to be rediculously cheap and when you loupe it, it will look perfect. If you loupe it and it''s not so perfect, chances are it''s natural.

I will tell you a story though about a little pink sapphire though I think you''ll like. I was with someone eyeing a multi-sapphire bracelet that the store had that was old inventory. They were gorgeous sapphires. The diamonds in it weren''t bad either, and it was priced right. Then there were 1 or 2 pink sapphires in there that didn''t look quite right.

I louped them both, and I came to an interesting conclusion on at least the one. These were all super clean sapphires. The one pink one looked like it was an odd ball shade of pink, and the store lighting wasn''t the best either. I louped it, and I saw pink alright. Then I saw this very distinctive shade like you would expect in a mandarin garnet. As I rotated the thing around, I could see a glimmer of a hot flame orange in the belly of the stone. When the light hit it right, you could see it. There is no signs of any rimming or anything else, and I know that shade of pure orange distincitively and it explained that slightly more fuschia color I was seeing.

The pink sapphire turned out to be a Padparadschia. The other one is close but I am not 100% certain on that. The rest of the pink ones are pink. However, sometimes people do screw up and you luck out and a pink turns into a Padparadschia.

Needless to say, I told them they better jump on it and when they saw the Pad, they thought the same thing theirself without saying it. I just confirmed it. Later on the manager figured it out too but let it go for the same price. LOL.

So the moral of the story is to learn what to look for in the loupe. Sometimes you won''t get screwed but someone else screwed up to your benefit.