Poll: Is it ethical/do you feel comfortable having a jeweler recreate a ring you like but can''t aff

[JHeebner]

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On 7/15/2004 9:33:31 PM noobie wrote:

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On 7/15/2004 9:27:36 PM starfire wrote:



any intellectual infringement is fundamentally, ethically and morally wrong.

Can anybody give me an UNBIASED legal and practical view of infringement and some examples and cases?

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Any lawyers in the house?

The example I gave earlier in this thread---about Janel Russell and Mother & Child Jewelry---is a real case. Went to court, she's sued ... I have to refer back to the article to see how many people. Our magazine wrote an article a couple of years ago on this topic, and we interviewed a lot of people (lawyers included) about this topic. If you're in the trade, refer to JCK Magazine, Oct 2001 issue, article entitled "Knock It Off." No, I did not write it.

 

[noobie]

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On 7/15/2004 9:47:24 PM JHeebner wrote:





Any lawyers in the house?

The example I gave earlier in this thread---about Janel Russell and Mother & Child Jewelry---is a real case. Went to court, she's sued ... I have to refer back to the article to see how many people. Our magazine wrote an article a couple of years ago on this topic, and we interviewed a lot of people (lawyers included) about this topic. If you're in the trade, refer to JCK Magazine, Oct 2001 issue, article entitled 'Knock It Off.' No, I did not write it.
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Can you post the article for us?

 

[Greg]

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On 7/15/2004 9:53:28 PM noobie wrote:


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Can you post the article for us?

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...that'd be a copyright infringement. Have we learned nothing from this thread?

 

[noobie]

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On 7/15/2004 10:14:07 PM Greg wrote:

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On 7/15/2004 9:53:28 PM noobie wrote:






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Can you post the article for us?

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...that'd be a copyright infringement. Have we learned nothing from this thread?

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For heavens sake, she works for the magazine ... it would be by permission

 

[pricescope]

Valeria posted this picture in another thread

 

[strmrdr]

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On 7/15/2004 9:33:31 PM noobie wrote:

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On 7/15/2004 9:27:36 PM starfire wrote:





any intellectual infringement is fundamentally, ethically and morally wrong.

Can anybody give me an UNBIASED legal and practical view of infringement and some examples and cases?

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yep

Big corp ripes off little guy its ok:
Case in point microsoft to many times to mention them all look it up.

little guy even thinks about using some corps ip its jail time:
example:
dmca again look it up


ip laws are so screwed and anti-consumer in the us right now it isnt funny.
It is in no way shape or form what the founding fathers intended.
so the big corps can kiss my fanny I will do what I want :}
If I want a close copy of some ring I will find someone to do it or do it myself and not lose a seconds sleep :}

 

[noobie]

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On 7/15/2004 6:31:50 PM JHeebner wrote:





On some earlier page, 'copies' were discussed. And I pretty much stated what you said on some of your string on this page: 'the exact same scene, use the exact same technique & IMHO, even go as far as signing it - before I would cry 'stealing intellectual property'.

But swiping at another b/c the person introduced a thought-provoking poll? That's not nice. Heck, this poll is a good thing. Look at this series of conversations! Isn't that what this site is all about? Discussions, trade and consumers talking, learing, exchanging ideas?

I don't know what your politicism is all about, honestly, I don't care about that, I'm just here for work--reading everybody's opinions to better understand what consumers think.
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My intention was not to take a swipe at you.I originally interpreted your post to be an inference that everyone who used a custom jeweler to create something close to a design to be a thief.It was very hard to follow in the middle of thread.After re-reading I realize that may not have been the case, so I apologize.

However I also do find this thread interesting since I have often wondered where infringement begins and ends in tweaking designs.If you can obtain permission to post the article it would be helpful.

Also my point to about trying to find value for the consumer was not only about paying the set price.It’s about finding out what drives the consumer serving them. Maybe they don’t need force people to buy the diamond and can just sell them the setting at a fair margin.Fighting a battle on principals is indeed very noble and commendable, but at some point the businesses need to be practical.BTW, my personal views are probably closer to yours than you think.

 

[kevinng]

This thread hits are the hearts of many people because it questions their ability to differentiate right from wrong. We all think that we are good people. So when others judge us, we feel hurt.

To be clear about things, there are actually 3 philosophical concepts being discussed here:

1. Morality
2. Ethics
3. Legality

I read that morality is founded within oneself. It is based on our conscience. We all have our own personal standards of what is right and wrong. They are called moral values If we feel that stealing is wrong, but we steal because of greed, then we are immoral. I have a friend who thinks that it is all right to lie if the good that comes out of the lie outweighs the lie. Well that's his moral value. So, if he lies in that context, he is not immoral, technically. However, people nowadays confuse the word with what society thinks is right or wrong... and with most words, its meaning is evolving with the general usage. People like to impose moral values on other people and judge them after that. But in my view, only the individual can truly know if they are indeed immoral. A good example is Robin Hood. Was he immoral? I don't know.... but I don't think so.

Ethics, on the other hand, is the rules/standards imposed by a community, profession, or society. It is ever changing, depending on how the majority within the community feels. A good example is abortion. It is ethical. The medical profession thinks it's OK. Most people think it's OK. But according to my moral values, it is absolutely immoral.

Legality is clearer. It is based on Statutes, Regulations, Directives and judgements by the courts.

 

[kevinng]

So... is custom copying a ring illegal, ethical or immoral?

I think it is illegal if you copying it 100%. If you copy it like 78-80%, then it becomes grey. Then perhaps only the courts can decide.

Is it ethical? It should be inethical to the jewellery trade. As with most trades, how can it be ethical to copy your neighbour's designs? As for the consumer, it seems grey. In some parts of the world, it would be inethical... but in others, it's not.

Is it immoral? Frankly speaking, I think it depends on the situation. I think it's not right... but it's not as serious as stealing. In my case, I did make reasonable effort to get the original setting. However, the store refuses to set it for me unless I buy their overpriced diamond. So... I think it's ever so slightly immoral for me to get it done elsewhere.

 

[Greg]

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On 7/15/2004 10:37:18 PM noobie wrote:

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On 7/15/2004 10:14:07 PM Greg wrote:

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On 7/15/2004 9:53:28 PM noobie wrote:


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Can you post the article for us?
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...that'd be a copyright infringement. Have we learned nothing from this thread?

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For heavens sake, she works for the magazine ... it would be by permission

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1. Technically, she'd have to own the rights to the article (most likely by being either the owner of the magazine or the author). Working there isn't enough.

2. I was only kidding.

 

[mm]

ok, is this stealing intellectual property:

I like the look of vatche royal crown and x prong with a princess cut (which is similar to a number of other rings made by designers including tiffanys etc etc) - BUT i want my diamond to be rotated 45 degrees.

None of these designers make a ring that matches my description, so I am considering getting one custom made by a local platinumsmith. I am using the xprong, royal crown style as an inspiration, but putting my own twist (literally) on what they have done. They do not offer that product- I don't see that as piracy of their artistic work.

And what about designers such as vatche who tell people on this site that they make rings for tiffany, effectively cashing in on the name of another business, while offering a very similar product at a lower price?

 

[Greg]

MM,

If you're having a ring made that you can't get anywhere else (like your example), I wouldn't call that copying. I think the same goes for replicas of antique rings.

The line that gets crossed that bugs me would be more explicit than that. If I sent this picture from whiteflash to GOG and said "I want my ring to look just like this." The appropriate response (just my opinion) from GOG would be, "Then go to whiteflash and buy it." Not, "Okay, we can make that." The second response is what many, many jewelers will say, and it is very uncool. I don't know about criminal, but it's defiantly uncool.

By using whiteflash & GOG, by the way, I'm just making an example, please no one infer that GOG would do something like that (and apologies to whiteflash for posting a copyrighted picture).

 

[questionsRus]

since we're talking about ethics and whatnot, you all might want to read another post (i'm sure most of you already are) here

 

[JHeebner]

Morning, gang! That's a good post to refer to, Rus. I'll keep that in mind for another day.

I'll ask our managing editor if it's okay to post that article here. I don't see why it wouldn't be.

If you haven't officially "voted" through the buttons on the first page, PLEASE do so!!

If I get A LOT OF VOTES, then I can fashion this thread into a small article of sorts. But, I need a large sample size. Thank you.

To all just joining this thread, it is tough to follow with five pages running here ... the gist is, at this point:

IS IT ETHICAL TO HAVE A JEWELER IDENTICALLY RECREATE A PIECE YOU LIKE BUT CAN'T AFFORD OR EASILY FIND LOCALLY?

Yes, I really should have put that word--identically--in from the beginning; I should have thought about the poll question for a while and edited it later. I know better than that!! Shame on me!

 

[fire&ice]

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On 7/16/2004 9:13:49 AM JHeebner wrote:

I'll ask our managing editor if it's okay to post that article here. I don't see why it wouldn't be.

If you haven't officially 'voted' through the buttons on the first page, PLEASE do so!!

If I get A LOT OF VOTES, then I can fashion this thread into a small article of sorts. But, I need a large sample size. Thank you.

To all just joining this thread, it is tough to follow with five pages running here ... the gist is, at this point:

IS IT ETHICAL TO HAVE A JEWELER IDENTICALLY RECREATE A PIECE YOU LIKE BUT CAN'T AFFORD OR EASILY FIND LOCALLY?

Yes, I really should have put that word--identically--in from the beginning; I should have thought about the poll question for a while and edited it later. I know better than that!! Shame on me!----------------

You may be able to provide a link with no problem instead of publishing the entire article here.

That said, how often does one really create a ring *identical* to another one. At the very least, the jeweler has different techniques, tools & their own style of fabrication.

So, if you want to flip the tables on this issue, how about a manufacturer like Vatche who price fixes their retail on their rings. If the vendor doesn't price the item at Vatche's proposed price, they get their "distributorship" yanked. I think that is unethical in a fair market. The price is fixed. The Vatche 3 stone ring is not a special design & can easily be created for less than *their* retail. I feel perfectly ethical about asking a jeweler to create something along those lines - same as I would take the vintage one and ask the same. It would be at a substainial cost savings & may end up being a better design to suit me. I don't think Vatche would be too happy. Also, whose to say that a jeweler who comes close to duplicating a Tacori ring doesn't have the same inspiration that Tacori has - which is a retro design in general.

That said, I wouldn't feel comfortable asking someone to re-create down to the letter a unique design.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 7/15/2004 8:42:17 PM Superidealist wrote:



To those who say there is nothing new under the sun, Juan Lozano (of van-Graff), a sixth generation jeweler, offered to prove this to me by producing 'at least ten identical models' of prior designs for a specific setting I showed him. It's been almost two and a half years since he made that promise and he has yet come up with a single one. [link]----------------

And this is your proof that design is not derivative? A busy man doesn't produce the designs while he has to service paying customers.

Aren't we still waiting for 8* owner to humor Yourgem about the taste test difference between 8* cutting & ideals? That must mean that it's true. There is no descernible difference between the stones.

IMO, RVS has more important things to do like run a business.

 

[Superidealist]

I offered no challenge. It was Juan who told me he'd prove that the design was derivative. That no proof was given tells me something.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 7/16/2004 10:24:18 AM Superidealist wrote:

I offered no challenge. It was Juan who told me he'd prove that the design was derivative. That no proof was given tells me something.----------------

Doesn't tell me anything except maybe he's too busy.

I've handled thousands of objects. From my experience, design is derivitive. Perhaps that is a negative spin. Perhaps I should say that 99.95% of design is based on a previous design precident. This is not an out there idea. It's basic main stream teaching.

So, ulitmately for me the debate is of intent to "fake" or recreate another's design & technique to the letter.

 

[mepearl53]

Good morning! Allow me to jump in here for I have quite a bit of experence with this. I am a jeweler Pearlmansjewelers.com that is a cross between a B&M and internet store. I represent 58 different award winning designers many of whose works have been copyrighted. It is unethical to copy a artists work and aganist the law. Say someone copied Michael B's lace collection and was found out. This designer would have a legal course of action. Say someone copied Michael B's princess collection which is a design of a single row of pave diamonds around a ring this would not be a problem for this design has been made for many years. I think the question that this raises in my view is which manufacture does the best job. It's like a doctor with a speciality that they do everyday vs one that proforms a function once a week. Which Dr would you choose to operate on you. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and if a gold or platinumsmith can say do the finest micro pave and a reduced price than fine. If they can't, which in 99% of the situations I've seen than it's up to the consumer to accept or reject. The experience I've had is the young lady is dissapointed if she sees the real thing when she compares the knock off. I think a major question here is does a B&M store who has the designer one wishes get with it and see the competition on the net. If they are pricing their diamonds without a clue as to what's happening out here they are sunk. If their designer ring is profitable and they get with internet pricing it's a different story.

Bill Pearlman

 

[Superidealist]

On 7/16/2004 10:50:33 AM fire&ice wrote:
So, ulitmately for me the debate is of intent to 'fake' or recreate another's design & technique to the letter.

I agree and that's what JHeebner's poll was addressing.

You'd be surprised how many vendors, even some who are generally well regarded, are involved in this. At Sarah Leonard, a respected Westwood jeweler, I asked what we could do if I didn't find a setting I liked and was told to "just bring in a picture of any setting and we'll make it for you." When I asked if that was ethical, they hemmed and hawed. I left and never returned. I just don't do business with those kind of people.

 

[Superidealist]

By the way, welcome Bill. If anyone hasn't seen Pearlman's website, it has one of the best selections of designer settings with the nicest photos you'll find online. To make a good thing even better, most of them are priced.

 

[Greg]

I had the same experience happen at Sarah Leonard (and about two dozen other jewelry stores in LA.) In fact, the only store that didn't offer to copy the design I was looking for was 23rd Street Jewelers in Santa Monica. They're a bit pricier than other stores, but of the places I went to when looking for an e-ring, 23rd Street is the only one I'd return to.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 7/16/2004 11:24:46 AM Superidealist wrote:

On 7/16/2004 10:50:33 AM fire&ice wrote:
So, ulitmately for me the debate is of intent to 'fake' or recreate another's design & technique to the letter.

I agree and that's what JHeebner's poll was addressing.

You'd be surprised how many vendors, even some who are generally well regarded, are involved in this. At Sarah Leonard, a respected Westwood jeweler, I asked what we could do if I didn't find a setting I liked and was told to 'just bring in a picture of any setting and we'll make it for you.' When I asked if that was ethical, they hemmed and hawed. I left and never returned. I just don't do business with those kind of people.----------------

Well then, to play the devils advocate, what if you bought a picture of a Tacori ring in? I'm sure an experience goldsmith would say "sure I can do that". That goldsmith should be experienced in the old art of chasing & filigree. Doesn't mean they would copy it down to the last letter - maybe the sqigels would go North instead of South. So, on the surface, I don't think it's unethical. But, it may be an issue w/ some of the more distinct involved settings.

Look at the photos Leonid posted. I doubt the Romans would sue? I doubt that designer has any ethical problems with creating that "Roman" setting.

And, ulitmately I'm on board w/ B. Pearlman's sane post. I think many people just wouldn't be satisfied with a "copyish". But, I may excited to create something w/ the same design precident w/ my own spin.

 

[JHeebner]

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On 7/16/2004 11:24:46 AM Superidealist wrote:

On 7/16/2004 10:50:33 AM fire&ice wrote:
At Sarah Leonard, a respected Westwood jeweler, I asked what we could do if I didn't find a setting I liked and was told to 'just bring in a picture of any setting and we'll make it for you.' When I asked if that was ethical, they hemmed and hawed. I left and never returned. I just don't do business with those kind of people.----------------

Now THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!!! That kind of activity gives our trade a black eye. If that jeweler is willing to do that, what else will they do? Diamond swap? Under karat? Who knows. The point is, they compromise trust when they engage in a shady act such as that.

 

[mepearl53]

Thanks D One of the biggest problems we had in making the site is that the designers thought people would take our photos and have them knocked off. Most saw the vision of exposing their work to the greatest number of possible consumers. Some feared the mass exposure would leed to the breaking down of the brand. There really is no comparison as to what these designers are producing and what others try to replicate. I have worked in the design field for over 30 years with my first designer being Eddie Sakamoto 30 years ago. He is the father of his design style and has inspired many other in his school of design. For a designer to be inspired to learn from his design is fine. To try to copy a artists exact design is highly unethical and shows no respect for anothers work. We work in a wonderful industry where we get involved in others peoples lifes. Many in their first walk down the isle. To suggest to these people that one can do it cheeper than the original designer suggests more of a money matter than love of true design.

 

[noobie]

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On 7/16/2004 11:58:03 AM JHeebner wrote:

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On 7/16/2004 11:24:46 AM Superidealist wrote:

On 7/16/2004 10:50:33 AM fire&ice wrote:




At Sarah Leonard, a respected Westwood jeweler, I asked what we could do if I didn't find a setting I liked and was told to 'just bring in a picture of any setting and we'll make it for you.' When I asked if that was ethical, they hemmed and hawed. I left and never returned. I just don't do business with those kind of people.----------------

Now THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!!! That kind of activity gives our trade a black eye. If that jeweler is willing to do that, what else will they do? Diamond swap? Under karat? Who knows. The point is, they compromise trust when they engage in a shady act such as that.


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Before we convict anyone, again what was it they were going to do? Copy a totally unique setting to the tee or offer a service to turn some ideas teh customer wants into reality? We don't know for sure the intent of the jeweler.

You know what, this is the same thing F&I said, and since she seems to be able to type and express herself a whole lot faster than me, for the rest of this thread, I'm just going say ditto until I disagree with something she types.

 

[JHeebner]

'just bring in a picture of any setting and we'll make it for you.' When I asked if that was ethical, they hemmed and hawed.


This could not be more clear.

That is all.

 

[JHeebner]

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On 7/16/2004 12:05:42 PM mepearl53 wrote:

One of the biggest problems we had in making the site is that the designers thought people would take our photos and have them knocked off. Most saw the vision of exposing their work to the greatest number of possible consumers. Some feared the mass exposure would leed to the breaking down of the brand. There really is no comparison as to what these designers are producing and what others try to replicate. I have worked in the design field for over 30 years with my first designer being Eddie Sakamoto 30 years ago. He is the father of his design style and has inspired many other in his school of design. For a designer to be inspired to learn from his design is fine. To try to copy a artists exact design is highly unethical and shows no respect for anothers work. We work in a wonderful industry where we get involved in others peoples lifes. Many in their first walk down the isle. To suggest to these people that one can do it cheeper than the original designer suggests more of a money matter than love of true design. ----------------

I feel blessed to have a job like this one where i work in an industry full of--mostly--lovely people and FRIENDS. As you know, there are thousands of designers worldwide. I met Sakamoto for the first time in Vegas this year. [I haven't been in industry for nearly as long as you!] Every show I go to, I meet new designers or companies--or jewelry-store owners, and I am priviledged to learn about their businesses and lives. I have so much respect and interest in these industry participants ... it's a thrilling place to spend my days. I'm glad to meet another person who feels likewise. Here's to another 25 years of great design and learning.

 

[noobie]

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On 7/16/2004 12:11:45 PM JHeebner wrote:





'just bring in a picture of any setting and we'll make it for you.' When I asked if that was ethical, they hemmed and hawed.


This could not be more clear.

That is all.
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Did they hemm and haw as to the ethics or did they hemm and haw depending upon the the specific setting to be made and situation? I don't agree with copying unique pieces, but I don't think we should be publically convicting jewelers either based on a few lines of a post in a forum.

 

[Greg]

When I was making the rounds, nobody said that they could design a ring like the one I was describing, they said bring in a picture and we'll make one just like it.

Try it for yourself. Go several stores with a picture of a ring and ask if they could reproduce it exactly. More often then not, they'll say they can do it (that might be a better hook for an article than a PS poll anyway).

I don't think I'd put this kind of behavior in the same league as diamond swapping or anything like that. But it's a cruddy thing to do just the same.

Also, a bit off topic (only a bit), didn't Brad Pitt recently sue the jeweler that made his engagement ring for continuing to use his design? Is there anything from that story that applies here?