PrecisionGem 1001 - Rubellite Tourmaline

[cellentani]

Chictomato, in looking at several different vendors, it seems there is some acceptable color variance in rubellites - I''ve seen red, strong purple-red, and even hot pink (although, I personally dispute the rubellite label for those hot pinks). While high quality rubellites aren''t supposed to shift color, mine do - but it''s acceptable to me because the shift is still within a normal color for rubellite and it''s a color I like. So I understand your hesitation, but is your concern over whether it''s a true rubellite, or are you just not loving the orangey color shift? Either way, the cuts on both of Gene''s stones are yummy!

 

[chictomato]

Date: 4/3/2010 10:28:05 AM
Author: cellentani
Chictomato, in looking at several different vendors, it seems there is some acceptable color variance in rubellites - I've seen red, strong purple-red, and even hot pink (although, I personally dispute the rubellite label for those hot pinks). While high quality rubellites aren't supposed to shift color, mine do - but it's acceptable to me because the shift is still within a normal color for rubellite and it's a color I like. So I understand your hesitation, but is your concern over whether it's a true rubellite, or are you just not loving the orangey color shift? Either way, the cuts on both of Gene's stones are yummy!

Thanks to all the input! I really appreciate it

I had just brought them put on a shopping trip so as to have chance to view them in various lighting. The rubellite is the only stone that appears red all the time. The purple spinel actually looks grayer in general lighting..

Cellentani- You do understand my thoughts! I have the same questions running through my mind now. I pop by this high end jewelry shop in the Fullerton Hotel and it seems that their Rubellite do have a slight shift to orangey in some light. I do not really mind the shift, I am more concern that it looks 'colored' in all light and not dark that it look 'blackish' or too gray. I do obtain a certification for all my stones (since it does not cost a lot from Singapore NGI). I believe it will come back as a true Rubellite as the color is really close to those i have seen.I have no doubt in Gene's description as well.

I have another pict in this Rhodolite link

do let me have your views on this stone too! TIA

 

[cellentani]

Date: 4/3/2010 10:51:15 AM
Author: chictomato
Thanks to all the input! I really appreciate it

I had just brought them put on a shopping trip so as to have chance to view them in various lighting. The rubellite is the only stone that appears red all the time. The purple spinel actually looks grayer in general lighting..

Cellentani- You do understand my thoughts! I have the same questions running through my mind now. I pop by this high end jewelry shop in the Fullerton Hotel and it seems that their Rubellite do have a slight shift to orangey in some light. I do not really mind the shift, I am more concern that it looks ''colored'' in all light and not dark that it look ''blackish'' or too gray. I do obtain a certification for all my stones (since it does not cost a lot from Singapore NGI). I believe it will come back as a true Rubellite as the color is really close to those i have seen.I have no doubt in Gene''s description as well.

I have another pict in this Rhodolite link

do let me have your views on this stone too! TIA

Actually, I think you should post the hand pic from your rhodolite link over here - in that light, it reminds me of Gailey''s gorgeous rubellite from Lisa Elser. I hope you post the certification info when it comes back - I''d be interested in knowing what it says.

I was wondering what that little 4th stone was, lol - I''ll post my comments over there.

 

[T L]

Date: 4/3/2010 5:00:47 AM
Author: chictomato

Date: 3/18/2010 11:42:05 PM

Author: chictomato

Date: 3/18/2010 6:24:35 AM


Author: virgoruby


Wow, someone's been busy!

I hope you like them all.

Thanks to all the inputs! I will post some RL photos when they arrives

Hi there! Gene's rubellite and spinel has arrived

Here are the picts IRL.


The rubellite seems a little oranegy red in incandescent light as shown in the pict and purplish red in daylight. Do let me know your honest view if its a keeper or not? I actually prefer it to be purplish red in all lighting. Is that possible?


The other one is the purple spinel, really nice dispersion. Gets a little gray in the sunlight, as per Gene's description. But I thought its pretty, except its a little small.


The Rubellite cushion is highly include, about 3 carats, poorly cut as you can see got it free from a jeweler friend.


Please let me know your views It doesn't need to always be a positive one

If you are looking for a stone that doesn't shift color, as you stated, then you might want to send it back. My friend just obtained a rubellite from a precision cutter, and it did the same exact color change as yours. It looked just like the above picture, and then went a bit orange in incandescent lighting. She returned it. She's extremely picky about color, more than anyone I know, and she will patiently wait until the right stone comes along.

If you think you can wait, and you don't think you can tolerate the shift in color, then I would probably send it back. I also, like you, prefer my rubellites or pink tourmalines, to hold their beautiful pink/red color in all lighting. Some people prefer the ones that shift, or don't mind the shift. It's all a matter of personal taste.

As for the term rubellite, it means "red or ruby like tourmaline" and some dealers believe that they should always hold their color, and some think the shift is acceptable. In the end, it is still a marketing name, and I wouldn't put too much emphasis on it. I will tell you that the tourmalines I have seen with the most neon color, and the ones that do hold their color, often have inclusions. The ones that do not have eye visible inclusions, are natural in color and neon pink/red, are very expensive.

 

[chictomato]

Date: 4/3/2010 8:31:40 AM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Honest opinion as you asked ..........

The Rubellite has a gorgeous proper Rubellite daylight colour (perhaps a tad too dark with a bit of extinction) BUT the incandescent colour (orangey-red) is NOT what I would expect to see from a good high quality Rubellite. Rubellite should hold it's colour and shouldn't shift to any other colour than a purple/red. Poor quality Rubellites turn brown/red in incandescent lighting and whilst yours doesn't do that, it's still going to have brown if it's looking orangey.

However, the purple Spinel I adore. It's gorgeous - much better than Gene's photos of it. For me, (and I'm a Rubellite lover) the Spinel is the winner of the bunch.

hi lovingdiamonds, thanks for the the honest reply! Whenever I make any gem purchases, the description and photos are all that I can see and I will not hesitate to buy it if it attracts me. Once I received the actual stone, I will try viewing it in all sort of light to see its color. If I do not like it, I will have it pomptly return So I am really open to all view!

But there is something I have to add. ! I tried taking a final good look the rubellite. The rubellite is the one that looks good in all light without blacking out. I would like to decide if to have it return, hence i tried looking at the rubellite under incandescent light, direct sun and under the shade. in all 3 light conditions it still look purplish red. honestly i do not know why does it appear that orangey in the group pict, nor can i take another photo of it looking that orangey red.. weird... is this the right way to view a color stone?

Since it does 'hold' its color as per described, in all light. Can I know why does it look orangey red in that particular photo (group pict)? In all 3 lights the color is closest to the 1st (real life) photo posted.

I have decided to return the purple spinel as in all lights it has this grayishness (it has a grayer tone than the RL photo in person), though great dispersion.

 

[chictomato]

Date: 4/3/2010 11:51:22 AM
Author: cellentani

Date: 4/3/2010 10:51:15 AM
Author: chictomato
Thanks to all the input! I really appreciate it

I had just brought them put on a shopping trip so as to have chance to view them in various lighting. The rubellite is the only stone that appears red all the time. The purple spinel actually looks grayer in general lighting..

Cellentani- You do understand my thoughts! I have the same questions running through my mind now. I pop by this high end jewelry shop in the Fullerton Hotel and it seems that their Rubellite do have a slight shift to orangey in some light. I do not really mind the shift, I am more concern that it looks ''colored'' in all light and not dark that it look ''blackish'' or too gray. I do obtain a certification for all my stones (since it does not cost a lot from Singapore NGI). I believe it will come back as a true Rubellite as the color is really close to those i have seen.I have no doubt in Gene''s description as well.

I have another pict in this Rhodolite link

do let me have your views on this stone too! TIA

Actually, I think you should post the hand pic from your rhodolite link over here - in that light, it reminds me of Gailey''s gorgeous rubellite from Lisa Elser. I hope you post the certification info when it comes back - I''d be interested in knowing what it says.

I was wondering what that little 4th stone was, lol - I''ll post my comments over there.

Certainly Cellentani! I will keep you update once its certified!

 

[ma re]

In all honesty, it all depends on what you paid for them. If you paid top dollar (like several hundred per carat), then I''d say they''re not good enough, as neither has the best color you could possibly find in these species, but I''m guessing the price wasn''t exactly that high, so I think you did well. I particularly like the purple spinel, cause it''s brilliance and dispersion are evident even in photos, and they''re generally not the most saturated in color, so I think it looks lovely. I''m not so crazy about the rubelite''s color, cause in some pics it looks a lot like rhodolite (which is usually less expensive). All in all, if you love them, that''s all that matters. Enjoy them!

 

[chictomato]

Date: 4/4/2010 3:13:29 AM
Author: ma re
In all honesty, it all depends on what you paid for them. If you paid top dollar (like several hundred per carat), then I''d say they''re not good enough, as neither has the best color you could possibly find in these species, but I''m guessing the price wasn''t exactly that high, so I think you did well. I particularly like the purple spinel, cause it''s brilliance and dispersion are evident even in photos, and they''re generally not the most saturated in color, so I think it looks lovely. I''m not so crazy about the rubelite''s color, cause in some pics it looks a lot like rhodolite (which is usually less expensive). All in all, if you love them, that''s all that matters. Enjoy them!

Thanks Ma re for the helpful advises! After looking at it carefully, bearing what you said in mind I think I am gonna keep it, cos I do love the color and it really does not shift to that orangey as shown in the photo. Thanks again ma re, I will be returning the spinel soon. Maybe you can have it send to you to take a look at it IRL? Gene''s description is accurate, it really does have a cool purple but it really ''loses it saturation'' in most light. Its not a color I like

 

[Sagebrush]

Cellentani,

The hue in tourmaline will almost always change when switching from daylight to incandescent. Generally speaking, tourmaline is a "day stone" meaning that it puts its best foot forward in natural light. Reds often pick up a grayish mask in incandescent, finer ones will often turn a much more desirable violetish.

Also, I have never seen a red tourmaline with a distinct orangy secondary hue as shown in one image. Tourmaline has the longest chemical formula in the gem world, so it is dangerous to use the term "never."

What is a cellentani anyway?

 

[chrono]

Sadly, I have to chime in to admit that I was the previous owner of a rubellite (or pink tourmaline for the purists) that was a lovely purplish pink outdoors but shifted to the dreaded orangish pink under incandescent lighting. It bugged me big time and I could not make myself keep the stone. This is the gorgeous daylight colour:

 

[chrono]

Here is the dreaded orange secondary.

 

[LD]

Chic - some Rubellites (as you can see from Chrono''s photo above) do shift to an orangey red in some lighting conditions. The reason it looks like that in your photo is either (a) if none of the stones look "right" then your settings on your camera may not be correct or (b) it actually does take on an orange hue in some lights and you just haven''t seen it do it since. Try putting it back where you photographed at the same time of day using the same conditions, same background etc and see what happens then.

The thing is that if you love the Rubellite then you MUST keep it. If, to you, it''s scrumptious in all lights then it''s a winner! The problem with judging any gemstone from a photo (or series of photos) is that it''s just a snapshot and may not be accurate.

I''m a Rubellite snob I''m afraid and, for me, if a Rubellite shifts at all other than to deepen or lighten then it goes back. (That comes are looking at tons of them)! Too fussy for my own good

However if I had one that did shift but I still loved all the colours it appeared to be then I''d probably keep it (how about that for a contradiction!).

 

[cellentani]

Date: 4/5/2010 9:38:22 AM
Author: Richard W. Wise
Cellentani,

The hue in tourmaline will almost always change when switching from daylight to incandescent. Generally speaking, tourmaline is a ''day stone'' meaning that it puts its best foot forward in natural light. Reds often pick up a grayish mask in incandescent, finer ones will often turn a much more desirable violetish.

Also, I have never seen a red tourmaline with a distinct orangy secondary hue as shown in one image. Tourmaline has the longest chemical formula in the gem world, so it is dangerous to use the term ''never.''

What is a cellentani anyway?

Hi Richard - I agree with all of the point made. Given what chictomato said on her garnet thread, I''m thinking that the orange hue was a camera issue, and not something she actually sees in person. However, Chrono just posted that her pink rubellite turns orange in incandescent, so I don''t know.

Cellentani is a type of corkscrew tube pasta, also known as cavatappi. I know it''s not the most imaginative username, but it''s one of my favorite pastas and I must have been hungry at the time. Kind of lame, huh?

 

[Sagebrush]

Cellantani,

I like the handle, sounds more like a musical instrument. Chrono''s images certainly give pause. When I first started going to Brazil there was no such thing as a yellow tourmaline, then there was; ditto the purple.

Judging gemstones you have three variables; the viewer, the gem and the light source. In earlier times there were only two light sources; the sun and the light from a flame (incandescent). Today we have various types of fluorescent and incandescent. People used to describe the finest alexandrite as ruby red in incandescent and emerald green by day. I spent several frustrating years trying to find a gem that fit the description. I finally figured out that the standard had changed, in the 1850s when Alexandrite was discovered and first described, the standard was daylight and candlelight. The latter is distinctly yellow at 1500 Kelvin. Today''s standard incandescent is 3200K.

I assume Chrono is using standard incandescent (3200K) but who knows, the specs are rarely printed on the bulb. The labs have not yet standardized the viewing environment. I use 5500K as does AGL, GIA uses 6200K and so it goes!

 

[chrono]

Yes, I am using the standard incandescent, whatever it may be, since it’s my dining room chandelier. The stone may look better under brighter and hotter lights at the lab but for me, it also matters that it looks just as good when I’m viewing it at home too.

 

[chictomato]

Hi there, there is this debate going on the ''right'' color for a true quality Rubellite and that pushes me to do more research I came across this link and thought that its quite informative, here you go! Rubellite linky

Cellentani- hope that you read this thread, I shall keep you update on the certification probably next week

 

[chictomato]

Date: 4/5/2010 9:53:52 AM
Author: Chrono
Here is the dreaded orange secondary.

Hi Chrono, that is an obvious brown (from the photo)!

 

[Sagebrush]

Below is an article I wrote that was originally published in GemKey Magazine in 1999. I expanded on this in Secrets Of The Gem Trade (The Connoisseur's Guide) in 2003. Hope this is useful, comments welcome.



Red Tourmaline: A New Approach

By Richard W. Wise, G.G. ©1999


Judging the various qualities of tourmaline is one of the most difficult challenges facing gem professionals today. Why? because tourmaline is the look-a-like stone. For centuries tourmaline has been evaluated mainly on how closely it resembled other gemstones. Historically, green tourmaline was compared to emerald, blue tourmaline to sapphire and red tourmaline to ruby. The discovery of Paraiba tourmaline in 1989 signaled the beginning of the end to this approach to grading. Thanks to Paraiba, tourmaline has shed its second class status, established its own aristocracy and has began to be taken seriously as a gemstone in its own right. Consider red or what is called rubellite tourmaline

Red Tourmaline is found in every conceivable variation along a continuum from pink through red. Despite the misleading appellation “rubellite”, red tourmaline looks like red tourmaline that is to say, not at all like ruby. Red tourmaline exhibits a unique combination of primary and secondary hue and red tourmaline shows a more distinct visible dichroism (multicolor affect) than ruby. Finally, the two gems behave quite differently in incandescent light.

Hue:

Using the ruby standard, stones with a visually pure red hue with the absolute minimum of secondary hue should be the most valued in the marketplace. However red tourmaline is never a visually pure red. Tourmaline always shows a distinct secondary hue, usually 20% or more of pink, violet or purple. Vividly pinkish, violetish and purplish secondary hues lend to tourmaline a distinctive appearance that can be quite beautiful though not particularly "ruby-like".

Dichroic effect, the tendency of a stone to show two or more distinct hues or tonal variations of the same hue in different parts of the stone, is very pronounced in tourmaline. Considered a defect in ruby, dichroic affect partly defines the beauty of red tourmaline.

Incandescent lighting further muddies the issue! Red tourmaline can be a real Jekyll and Hyde! When observed under a light bulb one of two things will happen: red tourmaline will either pick up a distinct brownish mask or more rarely the violet/pink component (sometimes with the addition of a bit of gray) will strengthen. Thai ruby behaves exactly the opposite. A strongly violetish or purplish red tourmaline is much more attractive than a muddy brownish “rubylike” stone. In a recent find of red tourmaline from Nigeria, the above relationship is reversed. In stones from this particular West African deposit the red sometimes tends to muddy in daylight showing a fuchsia red in incandescent light. For this reason it is particularly important to view each and every gem in all lighting environments.

Crystal:

Diaphanity, transparency or more commonly "crystal" is the true fourth C of colored gemstone evaluation. Tourmaline is normally a daystone. That is it looks its best in natural lighting. Although, as noted above, this effect can vary with tourmaline from various locales, Incandescent lighting normally produces a negative affect. The brownish mask that shows up under the lightbulb, if it is strong, causes the stone to loose its transparency, too literally "close up" under the lightbulb. Thus, it is important when considering a purchase to carefully observe the stone in incandescent light. This is the crucial test. A stone that is a limpid pinkish red in daylight but becomes a muddy brownish red in incandescent is less than desirable.

Tone:

Color scientists tell us that on a scale where window glass is 0% tone and coal is 100% tone, the ideal tone for red is eighty percent, which is also the ideal tone in ruby. However, in red tourmaline, lighter tones when combined with a higher percentage of secondary hue will often result in a marvelously beautiful gemstone. Gems with tonal values between forty and fifty percent will appear rosy, pinkish stones in the fifty-sixty percent range ape the color of Maraschino cherries. The best of the darker toned purplish reds resemble the Bing cherry.

Clarity:

Tourmaline is a type III gemstone. Eye-visible inclusions are the norm. Unlike diamonds, clarity in colored stones is judged by eye without the use of magnification. Stones with inclusions that are visible but effect neither the durability nor beauty of the gemstone are acceptable. Visibly flawless gemstones are rare and therefore should and do, command a substantial premium.

When evaluating the red variety of tourmaline the emphasis should be placed on the beauty of the tourmaline not on theoretical comparisons to ruby. In fact, the term rubellite should be consigned to the dustbin. Unlike ruby, this variety of tourmaline will normally exhibit a distinct secondary hue and strong dichroic effect. A key issue is the stone's behavior when it is shifted from a natural to an incandescent lighting environment. All other factors being equal, Red tourmaline with little or no brown mask that exhibits good crystal in all lighting environments is the crème de la crème of this tourmaline variety.

 

[T L]

I would just add to that article that some rubies, when evaluated, tend to look better in daylight due to their sometimes strong UV fluor, and this is something that I have never seen a rubellite or pink tourmaline ever have. If we're comparing rubies to rubellite, I think that's an important distinction as well.

Not all rubies have UV fluor, but some do.

Rubellites remind me more of some Mahenge spinels due to the lesser saturation of red on both, and their sometimes distinct purplish secondary. I know some Mahenges go more orange in incandescent lighting as well, and this is the case with some rubellites I have seen.

Thank you for the article Richard.

 

[Sagebrush]

Tourmaline lover,

Right you are, that discussion is in the chapter on ruby! All of the African rubies with the exception of some stones found at the old Saul Mine in the early 80s are iron-rich and if they fluoresce at all it is weak.

Best,

 

[ma re]

Thank you Richard, on another interesting read!

 

[chictomato]

what a detailed write up! thats the most informative article on rubellite i have come across so far. thanks Richard!

 

[chictomato]

Date: 4/3/2010 11:51:22 AM
Author: cellentani

Date: 4/3/2010 10:51:15 AM

Author: chictomato

Thanks to all the input! I really appreciate it

I had just brought them put on a shopping trip so as to have chance to view them in various lighting. The rubellite is the only stone that appears red all the time. The purple spinel actually looks grayer in general lighting..


Cellentani- You do understand my thoughts! I have the same questions running through my mind now. I pop by this high end jewelry shop in the Fullerton Hotel and it seems that their Rubellite do have a slight shift to orangey in some light. I do not really mind the shift, I am more concern that it looks ''colored'' in all light and not dark that it look ''blackish'' or too gray. I do obtain a certification for all my stones (since it does not cost a lot from Singapore NGI). I believe it will come back as a true Rubellite as the color is really close to those i have seen.I have no doubt in Gene''s description as well.


I have another pict in this Rhodolite link


do let me have your views on this stone too! TIA

Actually, I think you should post the hand pic from your rhodolite link over here - in that light, it reminds me of Gailey''s gorgeous rubellite from Lisa Elser. I hope you post the certification info when it comes back - I''d be interested in knowing what it says.


I was wondering what that little 4th stone was, lol - I''ll post my comments over there.

Hi Cellentani, just to follow up on the certification on the Rubellite. It is certainly a Rubellite Tourmaline according to the Gemologist, but he is not able to determine the origin. Hence, I did not obtain a detailed report

 

[cellentani]

Date: 4/17/2010 11:34:21 AM
Author: chictomato
Hi Cellentani, just to follow up on the certification on the Rubellite. It is certainly a Rubellite Tourmaline according to the Gemologist, but he is not able to determine the origin. Hence, I did not obtain a detailed report

Well, now you know for sure, but I would have been very surprised if it had come back as anything else - Gene is usually spot-on in his descriptions. He might be able to tell you where it''s from, especially if he bought it on one of his Africa trips. Have you thought about setting it yet? And where is that pic of Bob''s cushion rubellite?! I''m still curious to see it, lol!

 

[chictomato]

Hi cellentani! Yes gene told me that it was from Nigeria. Old rough that was purchased like 15 years ago. Yes I have to say that gene's description is accurate. However I think you are mistaken the heavily included cushion rubellite was from my jeweler friend not from bob. And trust me it is horribly included that it seems like a crack beneath the table, although it does not break the surface o ya I have no intention of setting it yet. When I do, it will certainly be another ring

 

[Gailey]

Hi Chic,

Sorry, I am way late to this thread.

I think you said that you have purchased the Chrome tourmaline. I hope it turns out to be a winner for you, but I suspect it will not. I think it will be a very dark stone.

Almost without exception when the tweezers appear light and bright, the stone will always be much darket than it appears in a vendors photo. The tweezers in the shot you posted show the tweezers to be almost white, and the stone still looks dark.

Now it may be that the concave faceting will make the stone much brighter. I hope that this is the case. But if not, just be aware of how the tweezers appear when evaluating future stones.

My first real-life introduction to rubellites was very recent and the thing I noticed about them is that they gave off amazing orange flashes, which is different from the orange secondary that has been talked about so far. The combination of the deep, deep pink with those orange flashes just had me mesmerised so that when I saw Lisa''s stone I virtually snapped her hand off at the elbow for it. Here''s a collage of my stone.

 

[chictomato]

Hi Gailey! Thank you for the info! the color is very close to my Rubelllite

Yes the orange flashes is kinda attractive to me too! But I have to say that you are definitely a much better photographer! 4 carat is a very substantial size

very beautifully cut too! The tourmaline is on its way, will post some picts when it arrives!

 

[chictomato]

Hi there I need some help in choosing the setting for my long cushion rubellite. Should I go for this (to customize for a emerald instead) beyondjewelry or this halo prettyjewel Tks!

 

[cellentani]

I definitely like the second one best - the rubellite is slightly skinny, so the side details will balance it out nicely. I also prefer the more delicate look of this ring to the first one. What''s your ring size?

 

[chictomato]

Date: 4/23/2010 9:09:31 AM
Author: cellentani
I definitely like the second one best - the rubellite is slightly skinny, so the side details will balance it out nicely. I also prefer the more delicate look of this ring to the first one. What''s your ring size?

Tks Cellentani, I actually prefer the 2nd one too I have tiny fingers about a US size 5 for the middle finger.