Princess Cut Ideal Cut

[diagem]

Date: 12/20/2008 3:17:58 PM
Author: oldminer
Now, I''m not a sole voice of authority, but the AGS 0 comes out more and more as a brand with a certain range of ASET characteristics. Of course, this is an important component of a ''brand''. It also makes sense that some princess cuts look best when observed tilting and rocking instead of just viewed face up. This is sensible since consumers might well choose to tilt and rock while others might go with a face-up method of choosing or observing beauty. I would contend that a ''brand'' is not the perfect candidate for the creation of an international grading standard. I am also certain that many very good looking and high performing Princess cuts which would not grade AGS 0 are their equal and potentially superior to some AGS 0 graded ones.

The selection of any individual diamond is based on whatever the consumer believes works for them. It is a hugely complex mix of quality, beauty and financial considerations. A grading standard for cut should be based on a face-up view alone. This allows fully repeatable comparison of apples to apples in a very acceptable, normal, common and consistent manner. Just like we use a standard lighting for color grading with a standard viewing angle, or the 10X limit on what inclusions count in clarity grading the final international standard for cut should be narrow enough to be meaningful yet broad enough to be a continuum over its range. It would make it less difficult for cutters to go for the top grade and lead to more choices for consumers as well as vendors.

Consumers would be unusually unlucky to find a bad AGS 0. They are a safe bet, but you must pay the price for the extra hard work the cutter goes through. A broader bulls eye for the top quality cut would make a lot of sense to me. No doubt, all the AGS 0 stones would make the top cut so no one is going to be hurt in the process.

Dave..., I believe the scope is broad (wouldnt make sense if its not).
Just add the tremendous high cutting costs + all the technology needed to achieve the goals (production and marketing) into the mix of the already extremely expensive substance (Diamond) = a very limited and safe scope/range.

You should understand the translation.......

 

[strmrdr]

If one wanted to argue that the ASET is flawed in the degree of obstruction and selected red/green split angles then I would agree that the selection is arbitrary and does not fit all real world conditions.
Under a specific set of conditions it is fairly accurate (high lighting, looking down on the stone from a close distance) at predicting the light return potential of a diamond.
From there you have to look at the distribution of the colors and the pattern produced to see if the stone will be pleasing to someone and has the type of light return they like.
Some people like crushed ice, some people like chunky and some like a mix of light return.
The red/green/blue raw percentages does not tell you this.
imo the light performance is in how much light it returns but the beauty is in the effective patterns(both diamond body and sparkle patterns) in the real world.

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 12/20/2008 2:47:59 AM
Author: avengerzx9
All,

I am still in the process of finding my diamond. I agree with Paul-Antwerp that it is impossible to find out more about the diamond without an ASET-image or an Ideal-scope. However, most of the vendors I go to in LA Jewelery district only has a GIA certificate, which does not show any more information than what I have provided thus far

So the search continues.

I''m not sure why this hasn''t been said yet..
Avenger, do you have something against buying online from one of the great vendors who have given their knowledge and expertise in this thread.?

If not, that is what you should do. Nobody can advise you whether or not to buy the diamonds you are looking at, as the people selling them are not giving you enough info to make an informed decision (without us being there in person with you to actually see the stones)..

Both Jon from GOG and Paul from Infinity will be able to find you an wonderful diamond, and take the guess-work and worry out of you trekking around the DD for days..

You need just email them with your budget and colour/size/clarity preferences, then let them do the looking for you.
Then you will be presented with a number of choices, and the proper tools to judge them, and make your decision.
easy!

I apologize if this was already suggested but I missed it.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 12/20/2008 3:06:15 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 12/20/2008 1:54:52 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

http://www.ideal-scope.com/using_reference_chart_ASET.asp
At the above link you can see some work that took Arthur and I a lot of development time.
Unlike the round stone ideal-scope reference chart - we decided to make this one a series of movies.

This is based on my experiance - not something AGS told me (although they do this with both rounds and all cuts - I think it is not required on rounds).

Dave if you test stones that you think are weak - but have great face up ASET appearance - then rock them - I bet you will find the ASET works.

that is my experiance after buying heaps of Princess when they were popular.

Hi Garry,

That link doesnt work good on my PC and it gets stuck...
Do you have movie comparisons link on real life appearance vs. ASET appearance of the same stone?

That would give a better notion...

The link has a lot of video streaming DG

It may have been that too many people were playing it when you tried (could it be techy''s?)
or your fliters might be set too tough?

It shows movies of what you see with various quality princess

http://www.ideal-scope.com/newsletters_issue009.asp was in an email format - it might be better for you?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 12/21/2008 5:02:02 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

The link has a lot of video streaming DG


It may have been that too many people were playing it when you tried (could it be techy''s?)

or your fliters might be set too tough?


It shows movies of what you see with various quality princess


http://www.ideal-scope.com/newsletters_issue009.asp was in an email format - it might be better for you?

The site is fine Garry, DG is having computer problems.

 

[diagem]

Date: 12/21/2008 5:02:02 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 12/20/2008 3:06:15 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 12/20/2008 1:54:52 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

http://www.ideal-scope.com/using_reference_chart_ASET.asp
At the above link you can see some work that took Arthur and I a lot of development time.
Unlike the round stone ideal-scope reference chart - we decided to make this one a series of movies.

This is based on my experiance - not something AGS told me (although they do this with both rounds and all cuts - I think it is not required on rounds).

Dave if you test stones that you think are weak - but have great face up ASET appearance - then rock them - I bet you will find the ASET works.

that is my experiance after buying heaps of Princess when they were popular.

Hi Garry,

That link doesnt work good on my PC and it gets stuck...
Do you have movie comparisons link on real life appearance vs. ASET appearance of the same stone?

That would give a better notion...

The link has a lot of video streaming DG

It may have been that too many people were playing it when you tried (could it be techy''s?)
or your fliters might be set too tough?

It shows movies of what you see with various quality princess

http://www.ideal-scope.com/newsletters_issue009.asp was in an email format - it might be better for you?

I managed to see it..., but,

I wanted to see video streaming on comparisons of:

Princess or other fancy cuts that compare a Diamond in regular lighting (office or outdoors etc...) vs. the same Diamond in the ASET tool!

Particular a top performer and a mediocre performer in ASET results.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 12/21/2008 9:47:56 AM
Author: DiaGem
I managed to see it..., but,

I wanted to see video streaming on comparisons of:

Princess or other fancy cuts that compare a Diamond in regular lighting (office or outdoors etc...) vs. the same Diamond in the ASET tool!

Particular a top performer and a mediocre performer in ASET results.

I am afraid it would take me a week to film all that.
DG surely you have an ASET scope by now? If not, then you are very very naughty.
the hand held AGS sell is about $35 (only for very small stones), and my better one is $50.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 12/20/2008 3:17:58 PM
Author: oldminer
Now, I''m not a sole voice of authority, but the AGS 0 comes out more and more as a brand with a certain range of ASET characteristics. Of course, this is an important component of a ''brand''. It also makes sense that some princess cuts look best when observed tilting and rocking instead of just viewed face up. This is sensible since consumers might well choose to tilt and rock while others might go with a face-up method of choosing or observing beauty. I would contend that a ''brand'' is not the perfect candidate for the creation of an international grading standard. I am also certain that many very good looking and high performing Princess cuts which would not grade AGS 0 are their equal and potentially superior to some AGS 0 graded ones.

The selection of any individual diamond is based on whatever the consumer believes works for them. It is a hugely complex mix of quality, beauty and financial considerations. A grading standard for cut should be based on a face-up view alone. This allows fully repeatable comparison of apples to apples in a very acceptable, normal, common and consistent manner. Just like we use a standard lighting for color grading with a standard viewing angle, or the 10X limit on what inclusions count in clarity grading the final international standard for cut should be narrow enough to be meaningful yet broad enough to be a continuum over its range. It would make it less difficult for cutters to go for the top grade and lead to more choices for consumers as well as vendors.

Consumers would be unusually unlucky to find a bad AGS 0. They are a safe bet, but you must pay the price for the extra hard work the cutter goes through. A broader bulls eye for the top quality cut would make a lot of sense to me. No doubt, all the AGS 0 stones would make the top cut so no one is going to be hurt in the process.

Dave,

I quoted your whole post, since I find it jumping from one end to the other, and it is difficult to follow your reasoning.

I do not understand the highlighted part at all. You are basically claiming that one should only assess cut in a perfect perpendicular position above the stone. That does not make sense. A diamond has to move to show its most unique (and I would say most important) feature, scintillation. And consumers are enjoying their stones daily while rocking and moving them, while you would like to have a fixed viewing position that would also involve the observer closing one of his eyes.

Is such a position of yours maybe a hidden defense of automatic cut-grading devices, like Imagem (consulted by yourself) and Brilliance-scope?

As for your call to broaden the range for AGS-0 princess-cuts, I have the opposite position. According to me, the current range is way too broad, with still various easily distinguishable levels of performance within AGS-0. Compared to the AGS-system for rounds, the one for princess-cuts is clearly more liberal. Because of this too broad range, you and others in this thread also do not understand my position. You all may have seen a few AGS-0 princess-cuts from a few producers (there are only a handful), and you seem to think that you have seen enough and know them sufficiently to pass generalized judgments on them.

I for one am waiting until AGS finishes their scintillation-study and incorporates that into their grading-system. It will be good to finally have a lab that also grades scintillation.

Live long,

 

[diagem]

Date: 12/21/2008 1:25:09 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 12/21/2008 9:47:56 AM
Author: DiaGem
I managed to see it..., but,

I wanted to see video streaming on comparisons of:

Princess or other fancy cuts that compare a Diamond in regular lighting (office or outdoors etc...) vs. the same Diamond in the ASET tool!

Particular a top performer and a mediocre performer in ASET results.

I am afraid it would take me a week to film all that.
DG surely you have an ASET scope by now? If not, then you are very very naughty.
the hand held AGS sell is about $35 (only for very small stones), and my better one is $50.

Common Garry..., you should know me a bit by now....

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 12/21/2008 2:08:01 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 12/21/2008 1:25:09 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)


I am afraid it would take me a week to film all that.
DG surely you have an ASET scope by now? If not, then you are very very naughty.
the hand held AGS sell is about $35 (only for very small stones), and my better one is $50.

Common Garry..., you should know me a bit by now....

DG are you a Neo or classical?

 

[Rhino]

Date: 12/21/2008 9:47:56 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 12/21/2008 5:02:02 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 12/20/2008 3:06:15 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 12/20/2008 1:54:52 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

http://www.ideal-scope.com/using_reference_chart_ASET.asp
At the above link you can see some work that took Arthur and I a lot of development time.
Unlike the round stone ideal-scope reference chart - we decided to make this one a series of movies.

This is based on my experiance - not something AGS told me (although they do this with both rounds and all cuts - I think it is not required on rounds).

Dave if you test stones that you think are weak - but have great face up ASET appearance - then rock them - I bet you will find the ASET works.

that is my experiance after buying heaps of Princess when they were popular.

Hi Garry,

That link doesnt work good on my PC and it gets stuck...
Do you have movie comparisons link on real life appearance vs. ASET appearance of the same stone?

That would give a better notion...

The link has a lot of video streaming DG

It may have been that too many people were playing it when you tried (could it be techy''s?)
or your fliters might be set too tough?

It shows movies of what you see with various quality princess

http://www.ideal-scope.com/newsletters_issue009.asp was in an email format - it might be better for you?

I managed to see it..., but,

I wanted to see video streaming on comparisons of:

Princess or other fancy cuts that compare a Diamond in regular lighting (office or outdoors etc...) vs. the same Diamond in the ASET tool!

Particular a top performer and a mediocre performer in ASET results.

If you haven''t seen my video on "The Optics of the Jubilee" I do this very thing DG. I show 3 princess cuts that vary in light performance along with their ASET and Dxray images as well as a Jubilee as we view their appearance in diffuse and spot lighting. In it you can easily see the correllation.

I have something a little more interesting though that''s not edited yet. Two diamonds with AGS Ideal Light Performance, jamming ASET images yet one diamond is a visual dud and the other is an optical stunner. Not sure if I''ll have this finished before the holidays though as its busy round these parts (thank God!).

All the best,

 

[diagem]

Date: 12/21/2008 5:06:51 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 12/21/2008 2:08:01 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 12/21/2008 1:25:09 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)


I am afraid it would take me a week to film all that.
DG surely you have an ASET scope by now? If not, then you are very very naughty.
the hand held AGS sell is about $35 (only for very small stones), and my better one is $50.

Common Garry..., you should know me a bit by now....

DG are you a Neo or classical?

Garry..., or????

 

[diagem]

Date: 12/21/2008 11:24:42 PM
Author: Rhino

Date: 12/21/2008 9:47:56 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 12/21/2008 5:02:02 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 12/20/2008 3:06:15 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 12/20/2008 1:54:52 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

http://www.ideal-scope.com/using_reference_chart_ASET.asp
At the above link you can see some work that took Arthur and I a lot of development time.
Unlike the round stone ideal-scope reference chart - we decided to make this one a series of movies.

This is based on my experiance - not something AGS told me (although they do this with both rounds and all cuts - I think it is not required on rounds).

Dave if you test stones that you think are weak - but have great face up ASET appearance - then rock them - I bet you will find the ASET works.

that is my experiance after buying heaps of Princess when they were popular.

Hi Garry,

That link doesnt work good on my PC and it gets stuck...
Do you have movie comparisons link on real life appearance vs. ASET appearance of the same stone?

That would give a better notion...

The link has a lot of video streaming DG

It may have been that too many people were playing it when you tried (could it be techy''s?)
or your fliters might be set too tough?

It shows movies of what you see with various quality princess

http://www.ideal-scope.com/newsletters_issue009.asp was in an email format - it might be better for you?

I managed to see it..., but,

I wanted to see video streaming on comparisons of:

Princess or other fancy cuts that compare a Diamond in regular lighting (office or outdoors etc...) vs. the same Diamond in the ASET tool!

Particular a top performer and a mediocre performer in ASET results.

If you haven''t seen my video on ''The Optics of the Jubilee'' I do this very thing DG. I show 3 princess cuts that vary in light performance along with their ASET and Dxray images as well as a Jubilee as we view their appearance in diffuse and spot lighting. In it you can easily see the correllation.

I have something a little more interesting though that''s not edited yet. Two diamonds with AGS Ideal Light Performance, jamming ASET images yet one diamond is a visual dud and the other is an optical stunner. Not sure if I''ll have this finished before the holidays though as its busy round these parts (thank God!).

All the best,

Jon..., so the opposite might be possible too..., right?

Two stones..., one jamming ASET the other a so-so ASET..., and two beautiful stunners?