Private School: mandatory, would be nice, or never? Why?

[Imdanny]

Well, we'll let you stay as long as you don't make it a habit.

JUST KIDDING!!!!!

 

[ksinger]

Ah . . . nevermind.

I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts about how removing the tenure system will fix all the problems of our school system. I'll say this: The teachers aren't the problem. Neither are the students. If outsiders could understand that, perhaps we could start making some progress.

This. I'm the daughter of teachers, the granddaughter of a teacher, the niece of a teacher. My original foray into college was to be a teacher. Teachers, on the average, are NOT the problem. The Ivory Tower of administrators, reinventing the wheel every year with yet another innovation that will make those kiddos learn like they never learned from all of those past innovative ideas . . . uh huh. You betcha. The real problems:

Parents . . . probably.
Society . . . surely.
Resources . . . heck, yeah.
Politics . . . definitely.
Teachers . . . not so much.
Reinventing the wheel of 2+2=4, yet again . . . biggest problem of all.

Holly, it happens more and more lately, but I totally agree with you.

(I only hope the other commie-pinko-lefties will still have me )

Oh fer heaven's sake. Fear not, you're still a commie-pinko-leftie in good standing. And I'll up the ante, and twist us all into yet another twilight zone, by agreeing.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

I am happy to hear your experience. I have a choice to make. Spend $18k per year per kid on a private school (in 2 years), or spend $700k on a new house in a premier school district. I am in a good district, but not good enough for my taste. Remember folks, too each their own. I do understand it is a luxury to send your kid to a private school or to purchase a home is a desireable district, but that is our payoff for all of the sacrifices and hard work my wife and I endured.

???

I'll ditto that

He's trying to impress us, I think.

I can't keep reading Cuso's posts because then I will say what I think and I'll get another admin warning . . .

I will say this, though, Cuso; only $700K? That won't buy a guest house in my neighborhood.

Plus I'm one of those extreme lefties you mentioned earlier.

I think the public schools, and their underpaid teachers, do an amazing job.

I cannot keep reading either. If Cuso hadn't have shown us a purchase, I would have questioned his ligitimacy re: any of his posts. Maybe the rest are nonsense posts???

I also agree public schools do an amazing job.

Cuso: A friend of mine took her child out of an extremely expensive private school and put him into the public school my kids go to because it's so highly recommended. She lives in a 650K+ big & exquisite house. So, yeah, she rocks. She could pay for that house AND put her child through private school, yet she still switched him to public because she has a lot of faith in that school.

ETA - and parents' involvement matters a lot as well. Regardless of where the kid goes to school, the kid NEEDS to know the parent(s) support him/her. Be sure you're taking your child to the library and doing crafts and stuff. You are doing that, right? Ah, the wonderful days of weekly visits to the library to hear stories read. Now my kids each have their own library card and order the books they want right online and we visit the library to pick them up. They're so funny that they insist on each having their own card.

 

[swimmer]

I forgot to reply to this earlier; if I could send my baby to Hogwart's of course I would.

 

[CUSO]

He's trying to impress us, I think.

I can't keep reading Cuso's posts because then I will say what I think and I'll get another admin warning . . .

I will say this, though, Cuso; only $700K? That won't buy a guest house in my neighborhood.

Plus I'm one of those extreme lefties you mentioned earlier.

ETA - and parents' involvement matters a lot as well. Regardless of where the kid goes to school, the kid NEEDS to know the parent(s) support him/her. Be sure you're taking your child to the library and doing crafts and stuff. You are doing that, right? Ah, the wonderful days of weekly visits to the library to hear stories read. Now my kids each have their own library card and order the books they want right online and we visit the library to pick them up. They're so funny that they insist on each having their own card.[/quo



I try to impress nobody. If anything I would hope you would be impressed with the sacrifice me and my wife are willing to make to give our daughters the best possible education available (according to us of course). Just because I said what it would take to get my kids the education that I see fit, I.e, 18k per year or moving to a 700k home. These are facts. 1 thing I learned on this board is that there is so much resentment to money around here. My wife is a lawyer, I owned a mortagage company and now own sev appartment buildings, but you would never know it. When my wife or I buy something extravagant we tell our friends our parents bought it for us, because we learned the hard way, people resent, when you have more money than them. This is a pretty anonymous board, so nobody knows me, I figured it was a good a place as anybto be open and honest and get honest opinions. Not just lefty jiberish. An if i were trying to impress you I would go to the safety deposit box and show you the good stuff, or show you the picture of me wearing a 60k watch wearing a 300 shirt in Dubai sitting in my Ferrari.

 

[megumic]

My four kids went to private school K-12 and all got an EXCELLENT education. My local school district is one of the top in Illinois. I don't regret a single penny I spent on private school.

I am happy to hear your experience. I have a choice to make. Spend $18k per year per kid on a private school (in 2 years), or spend $700k on a new house in a premier school district. I am in a good district, but not good enough for my taste. Remember folks, too each their own. I do understand it is a luxury to send your kid to a private school or to purchase a home is a desireable district, but that is our payoff for all of the sacrifices and hard work my wife and I endured.

Impossible to compare without knowing about each school specifically, as well as your kids. However, from a purely financial standpoint, not including interest, you'll spend roughly $468k over the course of a K-12 education for both kids, versus the $700k house. However, the house in the "premier" school district may have better resell value. If you sell your current house and move to the "premier" district, will that cost more than $700k than your current house? B/c unless you plan on keeping both, you won't be shelling out the whole $700k, no?

Honestly, it doesn't exactly seem like you've thought about this from the lack of details in your posts...

 

[Haven]

[ . . . ] An if i were trying to impress you I would go to the safety deposit box and show you the good stuff

I WANT TO SEE THE GOOD STUFF!

(Where do I find those emoties holding up the signs saying "This Thread is Worthless Without Pictures!")

Anyway, on a more serious note:
I'm surprised to read that you think people resent money around here. I've never experienced that on PS. As a diamond forum, I think it attracts many people who have enough fun money to buy luxury items, so I'm surprised to read that anyone gets the feeling there's resentment towards money around here. In fact, the thing that originally drew me to PS was the fact that this community understood my desire to spend my hard-earned money on a luxury item, and they didn't question it.

 

[Maria D]

Somewhere in this discussion, Haven said that if you want to make a difference, become a teacher - hear, hear!

Last Spring, the district I work in had this ad for a middle school math teacher position:

***Qualifications: The successful candidate must have
appropriate certification and be highly qualified to teach
mathematics. Preference will be given to candidates with an
ESL endorsement. Additionally, knowledge about This We
Believe, Turning Points, Breaking Ranks in the Middle, and
Service Learning is desired. Position Description: XXXX
Public Schools is seeking a dynamic, experienced and
innovative mathematics teacher to be part of a 6/7 looping
team at XXX Middle School. XXXX serves a diverse
population of 500 students with a staff of 80. The
successful candidate will demonstrate the following
qualifications: Masters degree in education, mathematics or
related area; Willing to work as part of an
interdisciplinary looping team; Demonstrated experience
working with research-based best practices and NCTM
standards;; Skillful at curriculum integration and able to
engage students in authentic learning experiences;
Experience working with disadvantaged youth, including
students from poverty and ELL students; and Willingness to
collaborate with parents and staff to improve learning for
all students.***

I think most would agree that's quite the job description.
Starting Salary assuming your fresh out of college with that masters degree? $33,669

If you have 10 years experience, the range would be from $45K to $53K. So who is going to step up to do this once we purge all the bad teachers? Oh yeah, but you get the summer off. That's when you'll be taking courses/workshops in curriculum integration, ELL certification, Service Learning, etc. Private school teachers typically make less than public school teachers, with fewer benefits. For some, the intangibles of parental support and selected students make it worth their while.

 

[Imdanny]

I don't think there are that many "bad" teachers. I think that's being used as an excuse to attack public schools. There's a lot of money to be made in various forms of privatization and very powerful people behind the effort.

 

[davi_el_mejor]

I try to impress nobody. If anything I would hope you would be impressed with the sacrifice me and my wife are willing to make to give our daughters the best possible education available (according to us of course). Just because I said what it would take to get my kids the education that I see fit, I.e, 18k per year or moving to a 700k home. These are facts. 1 thing I learned on this board is that there is so much resentment to money around here. My wife is a lawyer, I owned a mortagage company and now own sev appartment buildings, but you would never know it. When my wife or I buy something extravagant we tell our friends our parents bought it for us, because we learned the hard way, people resent, when you have more money than them. This is a pretty anonymous board, so nobody knows me, I figured it was a good a place as anybto be open and honest and get honest opinions. Not just lefty jiberish. An if i were trying to impress you I would go to the safety deposit box and show you the good stuff, or show you the picture of me wearing a 60k watch wearing a 300 shirt in Dubai sitting in my Ferrari.

Honest opinions? Minus lefty jibberish? Well, there goes my involvement in this thread...

 

[Imdanny]

I try to impress nobody. If anything I would hope you would be impressed with the sacrifice me and my wife are willing to make to give our daughters the best possible education available (according to us of course). Just because I said what it would take to get my kids the education that I see fit, I.e, 18k per year or moving to a 700k home. These are facts. 1 thing I learned on this board is that there is so much resentment to money around here. My wife is a lawyer, I owned a mortagage company and now own sev appartment buildings, but you would never know it. When my wife or I buy something extravagant we tell our friends our parents bought it for us, because we learned the hard way, people resent, when you have more money than them. This is a pretty anonymous board, so nobody knows me, I figured it was a good a place as anybto be open and honest and get honest opinions. Not just lefty jiberish. An if i were trying to impress you I would go to the safety deposit box and show you the good stuff, or show you the picture of me wearing a 60k watch wearing a 300 shirt in Dubai sitting in my Ferrari.

Honest opinions? Minus lefty jibberish? Well, there goes my involvement in this thread...

I know what you mean. Groan.

Politics and religion are banned topics on this site anyway, so that was, um, yeah, a little gratuitous.

 

[Imdanny]

Somewhere in this discussion, Haven said that if you want to make a difference, become a teacher - hear, hear!

Last Spring, the district I work in had this ad for a middle school math teacher position:

***Qualifications: The successful candidate must have
appropriate certification and be highly qualified to teach
mathematics. Preference will be given to candidates with an
ESL endorsement. Additionally, knowledge about This We
Believe, Turning Points, Breaking Ranks in the Middle, and
Service Learning is desired. Position Description: XXXX
Public Schools is seeking a dynamic, experienced and
innovative mathematics teacher to be part of a 6/7 looping
team at XXX Middle School. XXXX serves a diverse
population of 500 students with a staff of 80. The
successful candidate will demonstrate the following
qualifications: Masters degree in education, mathematics or
related area; Willing to work as part of an
interdisciplinary looping team; Demonstrated experience
working with research-based best practices and NCTM
standards;; Skillful at curriculum integration and able to
engage students in authentic learning experiences;
Experience working with disadvantaged youth, including
students from poverty and ELL students; and Willingness to
collaborate with parents and staff to improve learning for
all students.***

I think most would agree that's quite the job description.
Starting Salary assuming your fresh out of college with that masters degree? $33,669

If you have 10 years experience, the range would be from $45K to $53K. So who is going to step up to do this once we purge all the bad teachers? Oh yeah, but you get the summer off. That's when you'll be taking courses/workshops in curriculum integration, ELL certification, Service Learning, etc. Private school teachers typically make less than public school teachers, with fewer benefits. For some, the intangibles of parental support and selected students make it worth their while.

Yes, it's quite the job description and quite the diversion from rigorously teaching basic math skills, hopefully without "looping" and with, needless to say, "authentic learning experiences."

 

[Imdanny]

...

 

[Imdanny]

Ah . . . nevermind.

I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts about how removing the tenure system will fix all the problems of our school system. I'll say this: The teachers aren't the problem. Neither are the students. If outsiders could understand that, perhaps we could start making some progress.

But.. but... Haven, don't you want to turn public school teachers into wage slaves with no job security? (Kidding.)

 

[Imdanny]

"Students thrive when allowed to learn in a safe and supportive environment."

True. They also thrive when they are born to literate non-gang parents who weren't teen parents, who have a college education, jobs and money, and who read to them, feed them healthy food, and aren't currently at home sleeping off the last round of crack they took, says the wife of a teacher in a tough, impoverished urban district.

The single most important factor in student success is the STATUS OF THE PARENTS. Period. Any attempts to focus attention strictly on the schools, is a distraction from the real problem facing education today.

An interesting choice of words.

 

[ksinger]

"Students thrive when allowed to learn in a safe and supportive environment."

True. They also thrive when they are born to literate non-gang parents who weren't teen parents, who have a college education, jobs and money, and who read to them, feed them healthy food, and aren't currently at home sleeping off the last round of crack they took, says the wife of a teacher in a tough, impoverished urban district.

The single most important factor in student success is the STATUS OF THE PARENTS. Period. Any attempts to focus attention strictly on the schools, is a distraction from the real problem facing education today.

An interesting choice of words.

Parse away.

 

[Imdanny]

"Students thrive when allowed to learn in a safe and supportive environment."

True. They also thrive when they are born to literate non-gang parents who weren't teen parents, who have a college education, jobs and money, and who read to them, feed them healthy food, and aren't currently at home sleeping off the last round of crack they took, says the wife of a teacher in a tough, impoverished urban district.

The single most important factor in student success is the STATUS OF THE PARENTS. Period. Any attempts to focus attention strictly on the schools, is a distraction from the real problem facing education today.

An interesting choice of words.

Parse away.

No, thank you. I'm done.

 

[ksinger]

Somewhere in this discussion, Haven said that if you want to make a difference, become a teacher - hear, hear!

Last Spring, the district I work in had this ad for a middle school math teacher position:

***Qualifications: The successful candidate must have
appropriate certification and be highly qualified to teach
mathematics. Preference will be given to candidates with an
ESL endorsement. Additionally, knowledge about This We
Believe, Turning Points, Breaking Ranks in the Middle, and
Service Learning is desired. Position Description: XXXX
Public Schools is seeking a dynamic, experienced and
innovative mathematics teacher to be part of a 6/7 looping
team at XXX Middle School. XXXX serves a diverse
population of 500 students with a staff of 80. The
successful candidate will demonstrate the following
qualifications: Masters degree in education, mathematics or
related area; Willing to work as part of an
interdisciplinary looping team; Demonstrated experience
working with research-based best practices and NCTM
standards;; Skillful at curriculum integration and able to
engage students in authentic learning experiences;
Experience working with disadvantaged youth, including
students from poverty and ELL students; and Willingness to
collaborate with parents and staff to improve learning for
all students.***

I think most would agree that's quite the job description.
Starting Salary assuming your fresh out of college with that masters degree? $33,669

If you have 10 years experience, the range would be from $45K to $53K. So who is going to step up to do this once we purge all the bad teachers? Oh yeah, but you get the summer off. That's when you'll be taking courses/workshops in curriculum integration, ELL certification, Service Learning, etc. Private school teachers typically make less than public school teachers, with fewer benefits. For some, the intangibles of parental support and selected students make it worth their while.

In my husband's district, with a PhD and 20+ years, you will be topping out at 59 something, and that is a misleading number because the district adds in the $$ paid for the teachers' health care as part of their advertised "income".

My husband only has a bachelors, and would love to get a masters, but at his age, and with the cost of grad school now, even at a state college, we just can't justify it. Especially since, and I'm NOT making this up - he would only bring home $300 more a year for that degree. Crazy.

 

[ksinger]

I realize that few here are truly of the "fire 'em all, let God sort 'em out" mindset, (at least I HOPE), but I thought people might find this very interesting.

Report: Only 1 percent of 'bad' schools turn around
An examination of poorly performing schools underlines how hard it is to turn them around.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2010/1214/Report-Only-1-percent-of-bad-schools-turn-around

 

[soocool]

My four kids went to private school K-12 and all got an EXCELLENT education. My local school district is one of the top in Illinois. I don't regret a single penny I spent on private school.

I am happy to hear your experience. I have a choice to make. Spend $18k per year per kid on a private school (in 2 years), or spend $700k on a new house in a premier school district. I am in a good district, but not good enough for my taste. Remember folks, too each their own. I do understand it is a luxury to send your kid to a private school or to purchase a home is a desireable district, but that is our payoff for all of the sacrifices and hard work my wife and I endured.

In my neck of the woods in PA, many homes go for around 1 - 1.5 million and upward in the best school districts. In upstate PA where my friends are building a home a comparable one would be around $700,000. So how much your home costs is really relative to the area of the country in which you live. While to me $700,000 is not much for a home to someone else it is, so what is your point?


If you want the best for your kids send them to boarding school. There is one near me, the George School. Tuition for boarders is around $43,000 per school year. Keep this in mind when your kids are ready for high school. If you want the best you should certainly look into this.

 

[soocool]

[ . . . ] An if i were trying to impress you I would go to the safety deposit box and show you the good stuff

I WANT TO SEE THE GOOD STUFF!

(Where do I find those emoties holding up the signs saying "This Thread is Worthless Without Pictures!")

Anyway, on a more serious note:
I'm surprised to read that you think people resent money around here. I've never experienced that on PS. As a diamond forum, I think it attracts many people who have enough fun money to buy luxury items, so I'm surprised to read that anyone gets the feeling there's resentment towards money around here. In fact, the thing that originally drew me to PS was the fact that this community understood my desire to spend my hard-earned money on a luxury item, and they didn't question it.

I totally agree with Haven. In fact, I find many of the posters quite modest. We all work hard for our money and we make the choice as how we want to spend it. It is all about choices and what works for you may not work for the next guy. Have a nice day!

 

[rosetta]

Eh?

PSers judgemental about money?

Are you kidding cuso?

Where else can you post about a $100,000 piece of carbon and still only get admiring replies?

Trust me, this forum is about high-end luxury items, no one is intimidated by money here.

I can think of loads of other fora where they would tear you a new one for bragging, but this place certainly isn't it.

 

[atroop711]

He's trying to impress us, I think.

I can't keep reading Cuso's posts because then I will say what I think and I'll get another admin warning . . .

I will say this, though, Cuso; only $700K? That won't buy a guest house in my neighborhood.

Plus I'm one of those extreme lefties you mentioned earlier.

ETA - and parents' involvement matters a lot as well. Regardless of where the kid goes to school, the kid NEEDS to know the parent(s) support him/her. Be sure you're taking your child to the library and doing crafts and stuff. You are doing that, right? Ah, the wonderful days of weekly visits to the library to hear stories read. Now my kids each have their own library card and order the books they want right online and we visit the library to pick them up. They're so funny that they insist on each having their own card.[/quo



I try to impress nobody. If anything I would hope you would be impressed with the sacrifice me and my wife are willing to make to give our daughters the best possible education available (according to us of course). Just because I said what it would take to get my kids the education that I see fit, I.e, 18k per year or moving to a 700k home. These are facts. 1 thing I learned on this board is that there is so much resentment to money around here. My wife is a lawyer, I owned a mortagage company and now own sev appartment buildings, but you would never know it. When my wife or I buy something extravagant we tell our friends our parents bought it for us, because we learned the hard way, people resent, when you have more money than them. This is a pretty anonymous board, so nobody knows me, I figured it was a good a place as anybto be open and honest and get honest opinions. Not just lefty jiberish. An if i were trying to impress you I would go to the safety deposit box and show you the good stuff, or show you the picture of me wearing a 60k watch wearing a 300 shirt in Dubai sitting in my Ferrari.

Cuso play nice!!!! I held back the other day when you named S. Palin and A.Coulter as 2 of your 3 most admired women of this century. It took a lot of self restraint not to be sarcastic with your answers..and out of RESPECT, I stayed shut. So I think you should be respectful of the PS rules where we aren't allowed to discuss politics or religion.

 

[waterlilly]

He's trying to impress us, I think.

I can't keep reading Cuso's posts because then I will say what I think and I'll get another admin warning . . .

I will say this, though, Cuso; only $700K? That won't buy a guest house in my neighborhood.

Plus I'm one of those extreme lefties you mentioned earlier.

ETA - and parents' involvement matters a lot as well. Regardless of where the kid goes to school, the kid NEEDS to know the parent(s) support him/her. Be sure you're taking your child to the library and doing crafts and stuff. You are doing that, right? Ah, the wonderful days of weekly visits to the library to hear stories read. Now my kids each have their own library card and order the books they want right online and we visit the library to pick them up. They're so funny that they insist on each having their own card.[/quo



I try to impress nobody. If anything I would hope you would be impressed with the sacrifice me and my wife are willing to make to give our daughters the best possible education available (according to us of course). Just because I said what it would take to get my kids the education that I see fit, I.e, 18k per year or moving to a 700k home. These are facts. 1 thing I learned on this board is that there is so much resentment to money around here. My wife is a lawyer, I owned a mortagage company and now own sev appartment buildings, but you would never know it. When my wife or I buy something extravagant we tell our friends our parents bought it for us, because we learned the hard way, people resent, when you have more money than them. This is a pretty anonymous board, so nobody knows me, I figured it was a good a place as anybto be open and honest and get honest opinions. Not just lefty jiberish. An if i were trying to impress you I would go to the safety deposit box and show you the good stuff, or show you the picture of me wearing a 60k watch wearing a 300 shirt in Dubai sitting in my Ferrari.

Actually, we "would" know it, because pretty much every single topic you've posted since you came here has to do with money in some way. This purchase, that purchase, my wife is a lawyer, I made this much money, etc. etc. You go out of your way to talk about how modest you are ... but in the same breath have to divulge how much you spend on things..?

There is no resentment, trust me - most forum members are not strangers to great wealth - and truth be told - anyone that really has it, never flaunts it. Your posts are just completely confusing to me.

 

[CUSO]

Actually, we "would" know it, because pretty much every single topic you've posted since you came here has to do with money in some way. This purchase, that purchase, my wife is a lawyer, I made this much money, etc. etc. You go out of your way to talk about how modest you are ... but in the same breath have to divulge how much you spend on things..?

There is no resentment, trust me - most forum members are not strangers to great wealth - and truth be told - anyone that really has it, never flaunts it. Your posts are just completely confusing to me.[/quote]


You know, I come here to talk about all of the expensive things that I have that I could never tell to my friends or my wifes friends. Trust me, if they thought we spent 20k+ on a watch, or dont even get me started on the 2ct (each) matched pair of fancy blue near flawless diamonds that we recently acquired, and are unset (pics will be posted, they are in the safety deposit box) that we will have to tell them are fake, they would not be friends for long. I come here because everyone is so nonjudgemental . I dont really even care to have great stuff for me, but the entire reason I quest for "world class" items, is because I dont want to leave my daughters with a big bag of crap when I die. Of couse my wife and I enjoy the things we have, but we do it so they get the good stuff. I am sure people collect for different reasons, but that is my main reason. Let me also say how proud of my wife I am. She wears a Patek Philippe watch to work every day. One of her coworkers got a Tag watch for christmas and everyone was fawning over how lucky she was and how gorgeous it was. Nobody has yet to notice my wifes watch. It is our secret and we like that. In the real world we flaunt nothing. She finnaly got tired of understated and wanted some bling and I got her the whiteflash earrings. You can believe me or not, nobody knows about our finances in the real world. This is the place to talk about things like expensive luxuries.
Now if you want public schools, great, good for you. If I want to spend silly ammounts of money to send the kids to private school, good for me.
This board is called PRICESCOPE, what do we discuss, PRICES. Since it is pretty anonymous I feel OK about it. I am lucky I did not attach my LUXURY BLOG to my posts because you guys attack, rather than chat.

 

[Haven]

[ . . . ] I am lucky I did not attach my LUXURY BLOG to my posts because you guys attack, rather than chat.

Most of us are here for the discussion, CUSO. It's a small yet vocal minority who bring out the claws. (I'm even going to say that there has been a recent growth in snarkiness in our little community.)

Now, about those pictures . . .

 

[MichelleCarmen]

... oops, I found what I was looking for.

 

[TravelingGal]

[ . . . ] I am lucky I did not attach my LUXURY BLOG to my posts because you guys attack, rather than chat.

Most of us are here for the discussion, CUSO. It's a small yet vocal minority who bring out the claws. (I'm even going to say that there has been a recent growth in snarkiness in our little community.)

Now, about those pictures . . .

I've been quite restrained on this thread, thank you very much.

 

[Haven]

[ . . . ] I am lucky I did not attach my LUXURY BLOG to my posts because you guys attack, rather than chat.

Most of us are here for the discussion, CUSO. It's a small yet vocal minority who bring out the claws. (I'm even going to say that there has been a recent growth in snarkiness in our little community.)

Now, about those pictures . . .

I've been quite restrained on this thread, thank you very much.

Haha!
Yes, TGal, you have been *very* well-behaved in this thread.
Nicely done.

 

[rosetta]

Um hello?

Two 2 carat near flawless fancy blue diamonds??

Did I not say you could brag here shamelessly?

Where are the pics??

(hold on, lemme get kenny....)