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Question on How Much I Should Pay for a Brown Diamond

JJNPJ

JJNPJ

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 4, 2020
Messages
11
So I have lurked here for years but only finally registered today. I have an extensive collection and I look forward to sharing!

But first, I have a question on a diamond. This lovely diamond has captured my eye and I don’t know why, but I just really like it.

No cert, but appraised at fancy brown VVS2 2.9ct by an appraiser I know and trust. It is an old European cut (also a favorite of mine). Attached a few photos. it shifts what color it shows based on lighting, which is SO cool to me.

I like my diamonds warmer (off color/tinted) but I have never had or bought a colored diamond and I really have no idea what the market for brown/champagne is like beyond “mostly less than white diamonds“. I don’t want to overpay.

How much would you guys think is reasonable (if I buy it I will be paying cash via private sale)?

E070915D-4DC8-49E7-871F-D5B1C6C120C8.jpegE12D42D1-57AC-413D-9ECD-E8C0A0F4BD5C.jpegC02B276D-9B48-4F87-8D4F-0F08475A2CCC.jpegCAFB80D5-44E7-4EAC-A7AC-8AF11DD92179.jpeg
 
Pretty ring! I would suggest you report this post to be moved to Rocky Talk because you will get more eyes on it there.
 
I hope experts chime in bc I’m curious too! I would prob start my comparisons by searching James Allen under brown stones the same size. That be my starting point.
 
JJNPJ said:
... No cert, but appraised at fancy brown VVS2 2.9ct by an appraiser I know and trust. It is an old European cut (also a favorite of mine). Attached a few photos. it shifts what color it shows based on lighting, which is SO cool to me.

I like my diamonds warmer (off color/tinted) but I have never had or bought a colored diamond and I really have no idea what the market for brown/champagne is like beyond “mostly less than white diamonds“. I don’t want to overpay.
Click to expand...

I have some experience buying Fancy Colored Diamonds.
... https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/fancy-colored-diamond-collection.159746/

You say you don't want to over pay.
Then, (regardless of your feelings about your appraiser and/or the seller) step 1 is to have the seller remove the stone from the setting and send the loose diamond to GIA in Carlsbad, CA or NYC, NY.

This is the ONLY way to really know what it is.
After that can you start the difficult task of arriving at a fair value for an FCD.
GIA accepts diamonds for grading from private individuals, so don't pay extra for anyone who says they have to send it to GIA for you. (A red flag).
Here are GIA Fee Schedules:


You can ship it to GIA insured, or hand carry it in if you are near 1 of GIA's 2 US locations.

FCDs are rare, so there are few comps to help arrive at a fair price ... and that's even after getting a GIA report.
You can get super ripped off, especially without a GIA report.
Other labs also grade FCDs but can be more "lenient" with their grades, making the diamond seem better than GIA would grade it to be.

Differences in FCDs that are subtle to you and I, but apparent to GIA, can make a huge difference in its value.
Without a GIA grading report you are at the mercy of the seller and the appraiser.
Few appraisers have a high level of FCD grading - and people in the know would not buy an FCD without a GIA report.
This means whatever "grades" your seller/appraiser claim the lack of GIA issuing those grades means it will be worth less when you sell it without a GIA report.

GIA is your best protection.
They will determine whether the material itself was mined from the earth, or grown in a lab ... and whether the origin of the color itself is the earth or treatment in a lab - both major factors affecting an FCD's value.
IOW GIA is the gold standard for grading FCDs.

If you can't get it graded by GIA (not any person who was trained at GIA - but GIA itself!) I have no further advice beyond moving on.
Then and only consider FCDs that were graded by GIA.

Another FCD buyer beware ...
There are TWO things about an FCD that can be natural or man made - the material AND the color itself.
GIA will establish the origin of both.
Unfortunately many unethical FCD sellers tell you their FCDs are "natural" when only the material is from the earth - yet the color is the result of treatment in a lab.
More ethical ones will admit up front the FCDs were mined, not lab-created, and the color is from treatment rather than natural.

Good Luck.
 
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nala said:
I hope experts chime in bc I’m curious too! I would prob start my comparisons by searching James Allen under brown stones the same size. That be my starting point.
Click to expand...

I looked there first... but they seem to be very shy on high-clarity brown diamonds in the 3ct range. When they do have in the 2ct range is just so light too.
 
kenny said:
I have some experience buying Fancy Colored Diamonds.
... https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/fancy-colored-diamond-collection.159746/

Regardless of your feelings about your appraiser and/or the seller, step 1 is to have the seller remove the stone from the setting and send the loose diamond to GIA in Carlsbad, CA or NY NY.
GIA accepts diamonds from private individuals, so don't pay more for anyone else to send it in for you.


You can ship it to them insured, or hand carry it in if you live close to their 2 locations.

FCDs are rare, so there are few comps to help arrive at a fair price ... and that's even after getting a GIA report.
You can get super ripped off, especially without a GIA report.
Other labs also grade FCDs but can be more "lenient" with their grades, making the diamond seem better than GIA would grade it to be.

Differences in FCDs that are subtle to you and I, but apparent to GIA, can make a huge difference in its value.
Without a GIA grading report you are at the mercy of the seller and the appraiser.
Few appraisers have a high level of FCD grading - and people in the know would not buy an FCD without a GIA report.
This means whatever "grades" your seller/appraiser claim the lack of GIA issuing those grades means it will be worth less when you sell it without a GIA report.

GIA is your best protection.
They will determine whether the material itself was mined from the earth, or grown in a lab ... and whether the origin of the color itself is the earth or treatment in a lab - both major factors affecting an FCD's value.
IOW GIA is the gold standard for grading FCDs.

If you can't get it graded by GIA (not any person who was trained at GIA - but GIA itself!) I have no further advice beyond moving on.
Then and only consider FCDs that were graded by GIA.

Another FCD buyer beware ...
There are TWO things about an FCD that can be natural or man made - the material AND the color itself.
GIA will establish the origin of both.
Unfortunately many unethical FCD sellers tell you their FCDs are "natural" when only the material is from the earth - yet the color is the result of treatment in a lab.
More ethical ones will admit up front the FCDs were mined, not lab-created, and the color is from treatment rather than natural.

Good Luck.
Click to expand...

I will send it to GIA if I buy it. I am buying from a local seller, and I do 100% know that this diamonds has been privately owned here, for as long as I’ve been alive (over 30 years). Many of the things you cite - HPHT/irradiation/worse yet, crappy color coating in particular - are a large part of why I don’t own any fancy diamonds. So many sellers are dishonest.

The only reason I am considering this is because I know its history with certainty. It has been a lovely brown stone for 30 years... and over 30 years ago, lab grown and color treatments were a rarity. It is also part of why I haven’t pushed the seller to get a GIA report. I fear the price will increase significantly.

With a base presumption that it is as it is described - and natural - may I ask what you think a fair cash price would be?
 
JJNPJ said:
I will send it to GIA if I buy it. I am buying from a local seller, and I do 100% know that this diamonds has been privately owned here, for as long as I’ve been alive (over 30 years). Many of the things you cite - HPHT/irradiation/worse yet, crappy color coating in particular - are a large part of why I don’t own any fancy diamonds. So many sellers are dishonest.

The only reason I am considering this is because I know its history with certainty. It has been a lovely brown stone for 30 years... and over 30 years ago, lab grown and color treatments were a rarity. It is also part of why I haven’t pushed the seller to get a GIA report. I fear the price will increase significantly.

With a base presumption that it is as it is described - and natural - may I ask what you think a fair cash price would be?
Click to expand...

You said you don't want to overpay, so my advice is to slow down, way down, and learn more.

When it comes to FCDs trusting your judgement may end up being a very expensive mistake.
The only way to know what it is, and therefore begin to speculate on value, is for GIA to grade it.
If you prefer to buy it with no legit report, just trusting the owner (who may have been lied to 30 years ago when they bought it) which party is more likely to get the short end of the stick, buyer or seller? I'd say buyer.

If synthetic and/or treated it could have a low value, if both material and color are natural and GIA grades is VVS2 and it falls into one of the more-desirable tone and saturation grades of their chart (see below) it could be worth lots.

I know enough about FCDs to know that throwing out a value on an ungraded stone is doing you a disservice.
And don't bother looking at any legit FCD website (like Leibish) that sells GIA-graded Brown diamonds to find comparable diamonds.
Without a GIA report you do not know what it is.
Nothing with a GIA report is comparable to what you are considering, because its material and/or the color may be not natural.

Another important thing affecting price (which you do not know) is which of GIA's 9 Tone-Saturation grades it belongs in - see chart below.
These grades are another thing that also dramatically affect the value, and only GIA can grade this.

Buying an FCD without a GIA report is gambling.
And when gambling, odds are always with the house.


1.png
 
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I couldn't give you a price but from my observations in the second hand market, I've seen a few fancy brown bargains, especially out of Japan where I guess colourless is still very much king. They aren't necessarily the best colour/clarity though either. I think it's quite hard getting high clarity browns?

It's a gorgeous stone though. I like that it's an older cut. Have you been offered a price to work with? At least then you can research some comparable stones and make a cheeky offer that suits you.
 
kenny said:
I have some experience buying Fancy Colored Diamonds.
... https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/fancy-colored-diamond-collection.159746/

You say you don't want to over pay.
Then, (regardless of your feelings about your appraiser and/or the seller) step 1 is to have the seller remove the stone from the setting and send the loose diamond to GIA in Carlsbad, CA or NYC, NY.

This is the ONLY way to really know what it is.
After that can you start the difficult task of arriving at a fair value for an FCD.
GIA accepts diamonds for grading from private individuals, so don't pay extra for anyone who says they have to send it to GIA for you. (A red flag).
Here are GIA Fee Schedules:


You can ship it to GIA insured, or hand carry it in if you are near 1 of GIA's 2 US locations.

FCDs are rare, so there are few comps to help arrive at a fair price ... and that's even after getting a GIA report.
You can get super ripped off, especially without a GIA report.
Other labs also grade FCDs but can be more "lenient" with their grades, making the diamond seem better than GIA would grade it to be.

Differences in FCDs that are subtle to you and I, but apparent to GIA, can make a huge difference in its value.
Without a GIA grading report you are at the mercy of the seller and the appraiser.
Few appraisers have a high level of FCD grading - and people in the know would not buy an FCD without a GIA report.
This means whatever "grades" your seller/appraiser claim the lack of GIA issuing those grades means it will be worth less when you sell it without a GIA report.

GIA is your best protection.
They will determine whether the material itself was mined from the earth, or grown in a lab ... and whether the origin of the color itself is the earth or treatment in a lab - both major factors affecting an FCD's value.
IOW GIA is the gold standard for grading FCDs.

If you can't get it graded by GIA (not any person who was trained at GIA - but GIA itself!) I have no further advice beyond moving on.
Then and only consider FCDs that were graded by GIA.

Another FCD buyer beware ...
There are TWO things about an FCD that can be natural or man made - the material AND the color itself.
GIA will establish the origin of both.
Unfortunately many unethical FCD sellers tell you their FCDs are "natural" when only the material is from the earth - yet the color is the result of treatment in a lab.
More ethical ones will admit up front the FCDs were mined, not lab-created, and the color is from treatment rather than natural.

Good Luck.
Click to expand...

Hi @kenny! Does it mean that we should purchase 0.15c for FCD? Since GIA doesn't perform appraisals for anything lower than 0.15c.
 
La2020 said:
Hi @kenny! Does it mean that we should purchase 0.15c for FCD? Since GIA doesn't perform appraisals for anything lower than 0.15c.
Click to expand...

Actually, GIA does not perform any appraisals, only grading reports.
Also GIA is careful to not call them certificates, an important legal distinction.
Some members of the public, and some vendors, incorrectly call them certs, or certificates.
Gem labs do not certify anything.
They grade gems, subject the caveats in the fine print on the reverse.

GIA offers 3 different FCD reports, and one does not have that 0.15 ct minimum.
My 0.10 carat Fancy Red has that type of report.
Since that report does not grade clarity it's also often chosen for FCDs, of any size, with very low clarity.
Vendors may not want to have to state grades of I1 or I2 in their listings.

Compare Colored Diamond Grading Reports

View a detailed chart comparing the features of the Colored Diamond Grading Report and the Colored Diamond Identification and Origin Report.
www.gia.edu www.gia.edu

Chart from above link.

Screen Shot 2020-12-05 at 2.11.25 AM.png
 
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kenny said:
Actually, GIA does not perform any appraisals, only grading reports.
Also GIA is careful to not call them certificates, an important legal distinction.
Some members of the public, and some vendors, incorrectly call them certs, or certificates.
Gem labs do not certify anything.
They grade gems, subject the caveats in the fine print on the reverse.

GIA offers 3 different FCD reports, and one does not have that 0.15 ct minimum.
My 0.10 carat Fancy Red has that type of report.
Since that report does not grade clarity it's also often chosen for FCDs, of any size, with very low clarity.
Vendors may not want to have to state grades of I1 or I2 in their listings.

Compare Colored Diamond Grading Reports

View a detailed chart comparing the features of the Colored Diamond Grading Report and the Colored Diamond Identification and Origin Report.
www.gia.edu www.gia.edu

Chart from above link.

Screen Shot 2020-12-05 at 2.11.25 AM.png
Click to expand...

Thank you! this is so useful!
 
JJNPJ said:
A little update... it is going to GIA. Then I consider purchase! I like the price, I like the stone... but I do need certainty.
Click to expand...

Would love to hear you describe what you live about it. I’ve never seen a brown oec! How does it perform?
 
Brown diamonds, in general, follow different rules as compared with colorless diamonds, or fancy colors such as yellow.
One of the main reasons is price. Browns are ( generally) far less costly than other FCDs or colorless. Also, unless there’s a special modifying color such as orange or pink, differences in saturation don’t necessarily affect the price logically ( consistently).
Fancy Deep Brown is not necessarily more or less valuable than Fancy Brown
If it’s a one carat stone for $1500, a GIA report adds 10% to the price with no corresponding increase in price.
The lower prices also allay fears of treatment to sone extent. If a crook waned to fake a fcd they’d go for more expensive colors...

For this reason, it’s far more common for cutters and dealers to trade brown diamonds sans GIA

But there are certainly times a GIA report is warranted on a brown diamond- especially one such as the gem you’re considering. Super cool looking stone for sure.
About price- asking people to guess is unlikely to provide any meaningful info.

If you’d like to let us know that asking price, people will be able to give some sort of considered answers
 
JJNPJ said:
A little update... it is going to GIA. Then I consider purchase! I like the price, I like the stone... but I do need certainty.
Click to expand...

I'm glad it's going to GIA. :dance:

I want to correct an error I posted.
My bad.

GIA's Colored Diamond Identification and Origin Report does not require the diamond be removed from its setting.
But I wonder how accurately they can determine the carat weight.
Plus, I wonder whether there could be an inclusion under a prong that GIA can't detect.

Personally, despite the extra cost I'd send the diamond in loose.
Not being a gambler, I like to be as sure as possible about FCDs I buy.
 
kenny said:
GIA's Colored Diamond Identification and Origin Report does not require the diamond be removed from its setting.
But I wonder how accurately they can determine the carat weight.
Plus, I wonder whether there could be an inclusion under a prong that GIA can't detect.
Click to expand...

If the diamond is mounted, they just identify whether it's natural color or not. They don't indicate clarity or exact weight on the report. I would definitely have it removed and sent in loose.
 
Thanks. :wavey:
 
nala said:
Would love to hear you describe what you live about it. I’ve never seen a brown oec! How does it perform?
Click to expand...

It is just very interesting. It looks very champagne in certain light conditions, and very chocolate in others. I expect it will come back yellowish brown... it clearly has yellow undertone to it - and not the much more expensive orange, red, pink, etc. (Yes, some of the pics look orange undertone but it is definitely yellow). Also, the other thing I LOVE is the cut. I love OECs and mine cuts. It has an exceptional fiery cut, one of the nicest OEC cuts I have ever seen. The pics don’t do it justice in the slightest.

I was looking at spending $6k-$7k cash - which is super cheap budget-wise to me... but then again I have never bought a stone like this, so I really am way out of my depth. It feels very low, which is part of why I paused.

Lastly, she is mounted but she will go to the GIA loose.
 
JJNPJ said:
It is just very interesting. It looks very champagne in certain light conditions, and very chocolate in others. I expect it will come back yellowish brown... it clearly has yellow undertone to it - and not the much more expensive orange, red, pink, etc. (Yes, some of the pics look orange undertone but it is definitely yellow). Also, the other thing I LOVE is the cut. I love OECs and mine cuts. It has an exceptional fiery cut, one of the nicest OEC cuts I have ever seen. The pics don’t do it justice in the slightest.

I was looking at spending $6k-$7k cash - which is super cheap budget-wise to me... but then again I have never bought a stone like this, so I really am way out of my depth. It feels very low, which is part of why I paused.

Lastly, she is mounted but she will go to the GIA loose.
Click to expand...

I have a GIA graded fancy yellow-brown oec and I adore the color. So many varying looks depending on lighting. Very excited to see what this diamond grades, and can't wait to see it in other lighting once you get it back. The price sounds great!
 
Diamonds by Lauren have 34 pages of brown diamonds, so that might be a good place to get an idea of pricing.

TIP: if you actually want to be able to filter the 34 pages by shape or carat weight then start at the "Loose Diamonds" tab.

Edit: if you start at loose diamonds you only get 5 pages. To get the 34 pages start at "Shop by Color" on the right hand side of the page, that adds all the stones set in jewelry. I could find no way at all to sort the 34 pages!!!!!
 
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Thank you @prs !!
Our site is...pre-historic, by internet standards.
It was designed waaaaaay bak in 2005!! There were dinosaurs walking around back then:)
The "Shop by Color" section never quite worked as intended.....but we love the way the site works overall, so there it is....prehistoric an all:)


JJNPJ said:
I don’t want to overpay.
Click to expand...

I can't say anything specific about the stone you're considering- but I can say that $7k for a 2.9ct diamond is a very low price. Low enough that my first instinct would be skeptical if it was a dealer.
Re-reading your first post- I see it's a private sale.
I totally agree with Kenny- no way you should consider without a GIA. And in terms of the manner of transaction......will the appraiser act as a middle man?
When I am advising consumers of where to sell diamonds, back to the trade for a low price, or higher-priced, as a private sale, consider the risk....
Same as a buyer- the aspect of risk in a sale like this is large if you don't know the seller.
 
Rockdiamond said:
Thank you @prs !!
Our site is...pre-historic, by internet standards.
It was designed waaaaaay bak in 2005!! There were dinosaurs walking around back then:)
The "Shop by Color" section never quite worked as intended.....but we love the way the site works overall, so there it is....prehistoric an all:)
Click to expand...

Yes, your site is prehistoric, but so am I, so I should enjoy using it. Unfortunately I don't find it very user friendly, and being prehistoric, I need all the user friendliness I can get. :mrgreen2:

I see now you do have a sort function on the site that works well for colored gemstones. However, and it may be a recent glitch, as soon as I select a category of diamonds, the sort box disappears. :eek-2: So if the OP was trying to find all your brown diamonds between 2.0 and 4.0ct, she would have to plough thru all 34 pages, one at a time. :o

If the ability to sort a diamond search could be easily resumed, adding sort by carat weight might make it even more useful.

David, just trying to be helpful, and for sure no offense intended.
 
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I know the seller, in a friend-of-a-friend, know many people who have known of them for decades sort of way. It feels low to me too, on one hand... on the other, almost all of my larger diamonds have been bought at prices few would believe. My husband jokes that I have a diamond fairy godmother... I have taken some expensive gambles over the years that you PSers would probably call nuts and every single one has been insanely lucky.

I know yellow-brown diamonds are cheaper and more common than white/colorless (and other FCD) but... damn, it feels low, especially for such high clarity and a great cut. It is hard because I REALLY want this thing. I need it. It spoke to me. Nothing has grabbed me like this has in years. Something caused me to ask here, though, so... better safe than sorry. We will see what GIA comes back with.

No middle men. I am looking to wait til jeweler gets it back from GIA, meet seller there, review it, and then walk across the street to Bank of America with the seller. I am a 34 year old female... there are VERY few people I would feel comfortable doing this with.
 
Also, oh my gosh, I can’t tell you how often I peruse Diamonds By Lauren. There are some crazy amazing old cuts. I love the old cuts and I don’t see NICE old cuts all that often. Ayyyy.
 
My first thought reading this thread was, "She knows the seller and doesn't want to offend them by asking for a GIA report." If this diamond is what you and that party think it is, it can only reinforce their position. Do you believe they'll ask more once the diamond is verified? If so, would you still want to do business with them?
7 K seems awfully low to me. A brown OEC is not very common, and Fairy Godmother might be on vacation. Glad you're using GIA.
 
Some retailers want you to wander and linger and look at all of their merchandise.
Saving you time is not their priority.

I love Costco but they are constantly changing where they display stuff. :angryfire:
If you find the shampoo where it always is you won't notice other stuff they want to sell to you.
If they move things, you'll have to walk around searching for it.
Then you're more likely to notice, and buy :Up_to_something:, stuff you weren't looking for.

They know exactly what they are doing.
It's intentional, slimy, but intentional.
 
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It’s partially that I don’t want to offend them... I do trust that they are not trying to dupe me. But... if they got duped years ago, I also don’t want that to be my mistake. I don’t know if price will go up once they get to talking to someone with the GIA cert in hand and realizing they could get more. I also really couldn’t blame them for wanting more at that point. As a seller, would you want to honor a price for a friend of a friend after having to jump through hoops and spend some money and wait for it to come back from GIA, when you now know you could get more elsewhere? And are only selling due to financial need during this crappy pandemic...?

I don’t want to offend and I don’t want to kill my deal either. LOL.

We will see. If it’s meant to be, it will be. If not... onto the next search
 
So they got as far as deciding to sell the ring and putting a price on it without talking to anyone about what it might be worth? This is what sticks in my craw. A GIA report isn't going to tell them anything about its value, but if they do decide to do some research, they're in the awkward position of having to say, We were pretty sure it's a natural untreated diamond but now that we know it is, we're going to ask more. Either way, the report will protect them as well as you.
I think you're approaching this squarely, and that you're going to have a good story to tell this forum.
 
I've been reading PS for 17 years.
IIRC there have been 2 times someone posted that they took a gamble and bought an FCD without a report.
After the sale they sent it to GIA and it was graded fully natural, and they got a great deal.

It can happen.
Of course people vary and Kenny is not a gambler with his hard earned money.
Plus, I'm unusually well-informed about FCDs and the vendor-snakes slithering around the FCD marketplace.
When it comes to FCDs, buyer beware is an understatement.

But, as with all gambling, people don't say much when they gamble and lose.

But yes, GIA grading it fully natural does not assign a value.
The report just satisfies step 1, the maximum-possible certainty of what it is.
Then buyer & seller can move on to step 2 with confidence and peace of mind, arriving at a price.
 
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