Racism on Pricescope

[Dancing Fire]

Tacori E-ring presented a cogent assessment (IMO) of Ruby as a psychologically damaged person who has been deeply hurt in a thread about the women's march against Trump. Ruby was incensed by Tacori's comments and I feel as though I'm treading on thin ice bringing it up. Tacori's assessment resonated with me. Those who engage with Ruby in an attempt to educate her or others who may be swayed by her words reveal more about themselves than they reveal about Ruby and so I have, much to my dismay, stopped reading their attempts. I have Ruby on ignore because, for me personally, it is the humane thing to do.

Click the "ignore all conservative" button...

 

[AGBF]

I am not drunk as a skunk, perhaps tipsy as a loon, and I showered so I for sure know I do not stink. And I looked up the quote before I posted it so perhaps insanity and stupidity are one and the same. Topic for another thread.

I acknowledged the stupidity point in my second go at a response to you, Matata. I got mad.

Deb

 

[Dancing Fire]

I don't see it so much as sanitiztion. You can be a provocateur and still be a funny/interesting/intelligent one. I do have standards, even for trolls.

But I don't see this so much as a discussion about what we think is outright racism, or trolling, but where does PS draw the line? What if any is the standard?

Easy, just ban the four conservative PSers...

 

[Matata]

I acknowledged the stupidity point in my second go at a response to you, Matata. I got mad.

Deb

Yep you did get mad. I didn't see your 2nd post before I responded to your first. You sure exposed some your insecurities in that angry response. Interesting. Perhaps you'll reread it tomorrow and consider how shrill, defensive, and judgmental you sound which you tend to do when you perceive anyone has assaulted your sensibilities. Maybe you'll stay on your high-horse. In the meantime, I propose that we stop this discussion which is getting the thread too far off topic. If you want to attempt to put me in my place, start a new thread.

 

[Queenie60]

I find it intolerable that all of you have taken a turn to make this post about "Ruby bashing" - how can "two wrongs" make a right? I'm not siding with anyone - I just do not condone bullying.

 

[redwood66]

Easy, just ban the four conservative PSers...

Are you volunteering?

I find it intolerable that all of you have taken a turn to make this post about "Ruby bashing" - how can "two wrongs" make a right? I'm not siding with anyone - I just do not condone bullying.

Oh its not just ruby. I am sure that I am in the cabal of 3.

Edit - Had to go check who wrote that. Oh I am definitely who that white dog person is talking about. Normally I do not see that person's posts.

 

[Indylady]

I find it intolerable that all of you have taken a turn to make this post about "Ruby bashing" - how can "two wrongs" make a right? I'm not siding with anyone - I just do not condone bullying.

This thread is about racism, as it has been perpetuated by many posters on this forum. Racist posts did not simply appear on the forum. There is no sense in bullying. There is also no sense in pretending that racist, and unwanted opinions simply happened to be borne on this site without an author.

 

[Dancing Fire]

And it's not just racism, it's classism too, with certain long time members constantly categorizing those who live on the poverty line as being lazy, uneducated, and unwilling to go be rich.

Yup, are you talking to me?.... yes, wife and I could have chosen the poverty route when she was pregnant (1986) with our first daughter, but we both were young and naive instead of going on welfare we chose to work and raise our kids. Had we chosen the welfare route what do you think the chances of my daughters graduating from college? the answer? ...slim and none!. We always keep in mind that as parents what we chose in our lives will have big influences on our kids.

To this day wife and I are very proud.. not to depend on welfare when we were young with a baby on its way.

So, yeah both of our daughters are now working full time and contributing to the treasury of the US (paying a lot of taxes) don't you liberals love to hear that?

My apologies to all the PSer liberals here....I'm sorry that we didn't choose the liberal way.

 

[Indylady]

Yup, that's me....And yes, wife and I could have chosen the poverty route when she was pregnant (1986) with our first daughter, but we both were young and naive instead of going on welfare we chose to work and raise our kids. Had we chosen the welfare route what do you think the chances of my daughters graduating from college? the answer? ...slim and none!. We always keep in mind that as parents what we chose in our lives will have big influences on our kids.

To this day wife and I are very proud.. not to depend on welfare when we were young with a baby on its way.

So, yeah both of our daughters are now working full time and contributing to the treasury of the US (paying a lot of taxes) don't you liberals love to hear that?

My apologies to all the PSer liberals here....I'm sorry that we didn't choose the liberal way.

You misunderstand this thread. This thread is about racism on Pricescope, as delineated by the heading, not politics or the American welfare system.

 

[arkieb1]

This thread is about racism, as it has been perpetuated by many posters on this forum. Racist posts did not simply appear on the forum. There is no sense in bullying. There is also no sense in pretending that racist, and unwanted opinions simply happened to be borne on this site without an author.

But Indylady this is the problem, posters that make racist and indeed many ill informed comments about the poor and other minority groups claim they are not in fact racist, they claim they are simply reporting what they see and read. I've read countless comments about how they grew up poor, or somehow marginalised and therefore they and their children should matter as much if not more than any other minority group.

Thusfar, no amount of arguing, calling them out or otherwise prevents them from deflecting what is truly going on here, in fact in many of the other posts we all get to the point where you yourself (as has already happened here) will be singled out as the bully or the aggressor for even starting such a topic or that if we prevent their freedom of speech that it is not our place to be "net nannies." People like a few of our posters above have said on a number of occasions they hate political correctness and liberals way of thinking in general.

I would suggest the PSers that have worked out it's not worth wasting a millisecond or more trying to change their points of view or pointing out their views are unacceptable, and exercise the block function are indeed getting far more satisfaction. And as a few wise people have already suggested the more of us that do that and stop feeding whatever it is that makes them want this attention, the better.

 

[Dancing Fire]

You misunderstand this thread. This thread is about racism on Pricescope, as delineated by the heading, not politics or the American welfare system.

No I didn't. The long time member Elliot referring to on her post was me.

 

[Indylady]

But Indylady this is the problem, posters that make racist and indeed many ill informed comments about the poor and other minority groups claim they are not in fact racist, they claim they are simply reporting what they see and read. I've read countless comments about how they grew up poor, or somehow marginalised and therefore they and their children should matter as much if not more than any other minority group.

Thusfar, no amount of arguing, calling them out or otherwise prevents them from deflecting what is truly going on here, in fact in many of the other posts we all get to the point where you yourself (as has already happened here) will be singled out as the bully or the aggressor for even starting such a topic or that if we prevent their freedom of speech that it is not our place to be "net nannies." People like a few of our posters above have said on a number of occasions they hate political correctness and liberals way of thinking in general.

I would suggest the PSers that have worked out it's not worth wasting a millisecond or more trying to change their points of view or pointing out their views are unacceptable, and exercise the block function are indeed getting far more satisfaction. And as a few wise people have already suggested the more of us that do that and stop feeding whatever it is that makes them want this attention, the better.

But the answer is so simple--the moderators can stop and delete threads that become racist in nature, and block posters that continue to post discriminatory threads.

 

[Indylady]

No I didn't. The long time member Elliot referring to on her post was me.

You do misunderstand. The topic I have posted about is racism on Pricescope. It is very important to me to address this issue.

If you would like to discuss your personal history, the success of your children, or your opinions on welfare, I invite you to do so elsewhere.

 

[Arkteia]

I went to that thread and reread it. Hopefully, I did not post anything offensive to minorities. I disagreed with the OP. In general, I'd feel extremely ashamed if I caught myself thinking - not saying, thinking to myself - in what I perceive would be a racist way.

I have not been on the PS too often for reasons unrelated to PS. Internet is vast, and trust me, some other forums are way harsher when it comes to discussions about race, or homosexuality, or religion.

So I'd like to play the devil's advocate here. Ruby mentioned something about her Jewish relatives having bad time in Deep South. I started answering and then deleted.

Recently by genetic tests I found out I was 1/4 Ashkenazi. I never knew it. Moreover, my great-grandfather, according to Yad Vashem, perished in the Holocaust. The circumstances were such that even my mom did not know about it.

Now I have found some Jewish relatives. And most, to my delight, are super-liberal, super-just and fair, especially when it comes to other minorities.

So it is interesting to me how someone whose relatives emigrated from the Soviet Union (and it means, were subjected to discrimination there) does not see why we should support minorities, especially the ones who are really having hard time? It already happened to your people, it can happen again, why can't you notice when it is happening to other groups? (Have you ever read Victor Klemperer, the Jew who survived the Holocaust in Germany? What if today some groups feel the same way here?)

So I don't mind being engaged in some discussions with Ruby.

I think if I don't try to understand, and discuss, I am in for repeating the shock of 2016.

 

[Dancing Fire]

You do misunderstand. The topic I have posted about is racism on Pricescope. It is very important to me to address this issue.

Racism?? I have live here in Ca. for the past 51 yrs and the last time someone call me a "Chinaman" was in grade school.

 

[kenny]

I believe the thread proves discontent at and intolerance of perceived racism on PS. What harm has been done? If the 1st Amendment doesn't apply to PS (I'm assuming because it's a private entity -- is that correct?) then no harm is done under the law. We can be upset, incensed, disappointed, irate but racism here does not interfere with anyone's rights, correct?

This is an interesting thread in light of people's reactions to what happened at Berkeley with Milo Yiannopoulos and Ann Coulter. I was pleased that both were prevented from speaking but also concerned about how sanitized we want the world to be.

Kudos.
Not easy, but very well put Matata.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

I find it intolerable that all of you have taken a turn to make this post about "Ruby bashing" - how can "two wrongs" make a right? I'm not siding with anyone - I just do not condone bullying.

Queenie, I can only speak for my part in this and say that I didn't bash Ruby, but I did respond that I find her posts of a certain nature and tone and do not read them as a result.

Unless I missed it, apart from being referred to as a troll, nobody has called her names. Bullying would be a bit of a stretch here no?

I had one exchange with Ruby where she insulted me by accusing me of being ignorant, accused me of being part of some thread about Donald Trump (which I never was) and responded to me in an accusatory, condescending tone. My responses to her were factual and not emotionally charged however she went on the attack with me and I told her I would never respond to another one of her threads.

So, with all due respect, she has already demonstrated bullying behavior. My response in this thread is not to attack her but to express my opinion that this thread about Michelle was in extremely poor taste and had a racist tone. If these posts are to be tolerated as freedom of speech, then whoever the poster is needs to accept there will be a strong opinion as a result or not post to incite reaction.

 

[missy]

Indylady, thank you for calling out racism on Pricescope. I have long given up because I am weary and have been ignoring a few posters because it was like hitting our head on that proverbial wall discussing anything with them. To say this is an important discussion to have though is an understatement and I appreciate you having the energy to talk about it here.

However racism and other hateful actions/beahavior/thoughts are a reflection of what is happening all over our country and yes all over the world. Racism exists. Hate exists. Do we allow it here or delete all hateful racist posts and ban the perpetrators? Will that delete the behavior? Will that stop racism from occurring? No, but it would make PS a better and kinder and more pleasant place to be so I see both your position and others (Matata for one who makes excellent points as always) positions as well.

I get where engaging in discourse about this topic is positive but is that true only when the discussion can result in showing that person the error of their unhealthy thinking? Or could it be that other people reading the discussion might be shown the error of their thinking so in that way be helpful? Is that possible? Or is it so deeply ingrained there is no hope for the people who are already thinking this way?

I realized a while ago that wasn't going to happen with a few posters here so I gave up. Because it was insanity (for me to continue as it was taking a toll on my well being). Repeating the same efforts hoping for different results. Some people are just racist through and through. Period. You won't change their minds. Or can you? I could give examples of people throughout history whose minds you wouldn't have been able to change but hopefully you get what I am saying without me bringing up those examples.

I admire you for starting this thread and I admire many other posters here for fighting against hate. In real life I hope we all do this. People are not born hating but they learn to hate so maybe people can unlearn it too. That is my fervent hope. I always believed that (many) people who hate others hate themselves too (but don't always realize it) and that might be an even more difficult fight because that is one they must undertake themselves and if they don't realize it what hope is there.

And then there is a saying about tolerance- in the practice of tolerance your enemy can be a great teacher so for maybe that reason alone it is important to let these discussions continue even if it makes for very unpleasant conversation. It is important to talk about hate because we cannot let it go unchecked.

We should always speak out against hate of any kind. Who can forget this haunting quote by
Martin Niemöller.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

 

[cmd2014]

Silence can also be a powerful response in social (not political) interaction. If someone's comments are met with an overwhelming stony silence, it's a message in and of itself that what was said isn't ok. In having given this more thought, this is what I am determined to do. I would encourage others to do this too. Or if what is said is too offensive to let pass, hit report and move on.

 

[CJ2008]

My general opinion is that

a. if the person is behaving like a troll solely for the purpose of getting attention or to spice up the forum, or just because they want to be a pain in the a**, then like arkie said, ignore is the best option and the most satisfying. If I ever feel like I have the energy to read what they're saying, I can show the ignored content.

b. if the person truly believes the things he/she is saying, I'd rather know what they are, even if I don't agree with them. I want to know what the person is about. I might post / respond to state MY viewpoint, but not be attached to it. Meaning I don't expect - nor do I want - back and forth conversation. I'd say my piece, and go. But I want to know what that person is about as that may influence how I deal with them in all threads, not just in political / sensitive ones.

So either way, I'd rather have the option to read what they have to say than not. Like missy said deleting them doesn't delete their thoughts or behavior. We're better off knowing what those thoughts are.

 

[AGBF]

Yep you did get mad. I didn't see your 2nd post before I responded to your first. You sure exposed some your insecurities in that angry response. Interesting. Perhaps you'll reread it tomorrow and consider how shrill, defensive, and judgmental you sound which you tend to do when you perceive anyone has assaulted your sensibilities. Maybe you'll stay on your high-horse. In the meantime, I propose that we stop this discussion which is getting the thread too far off topic. If you want to attempt to put me in my place, start a new thread.

Hi, again, Matata-

I am not starting a new thread because I have no intention of trying to put you in your place. In addition, I am sure that a few people reading this thread would like to be able to watch our conversation here while eating some popcorn and not have to change channels to do it.

I find you incredibly compelling intellectually and very, very well-informed. I almost always agree with your stands on politics and free speech and tolerance. (Not that you need my imprimatur.) In short, I admire you. You find articles in magazines that no one else does and post them here without fanfare as a public service. You do not seek adulation for doing so.

Sometimes you have said demeaning things to me, however, usually about how I converse with posters you find to be "trolls". You once told me to "put on my big-girl panties". You have now accused me of hubris and, when I became emotional, of being shrill "as I tend to do". These are personal comments about me.

I did, certainly, become shrill. I am a flawed person, struggling to be better. I hear you about the "shrillness". I will work on it.

I still admire you. However, I do not react well to demeaning comments. (I didn't say I will not try to work on this, simply that this has been my pattern in life.) I do tend to want to defend myself.

Deb

 

[ksinger]

I'm somewhat conflicted about whether to respond or ignore. I used to engage kind of a lot. However, after a lot of engaging but never getting anywhere at all, I finally began using the new and improved "ignore" function (after the update). I felt like it was necessary if I wanted my enjoyment of Hangout to continue. I had never, ever used the ignore function previously, and a part of me felt like I was "caving" by doing so, that is was wrong to ignore the racism, sexism, etc etc that I know is going on - I know it's all still here, I just can't see it.

Is that really the right thing to do? I still don't know, but I do know that I get FAR less upset when I come here, and my general enjoyment of Hangout has definitely gone up. At a certain point I realized that there are some people I just cannot positively interact with, so I'd rather not see anything they have to say.

That being said, I agree that it's very important to call out racism when I see it. Sometimes it's just hard to have to see it so frequently, though, which is why I've gone this route.

I certainly don't think anyone who calls out racist posts needs to apologize for anything! At least now you all know why I don't respond to those inflammatory posts anymore (bc I don't see them! Lol).

"I used to engage kind of a lot. However, after a lot of engaging but never getting anywhere at all, I finally began".......
.....mostly just really not engaging at all.

I learned this the hard way about PS many years ago, and have been working on firming up that stance for quite a while now. The energy of putting out a well-reasoned and researched response, that results in nothing but frustration when you get the the inevitable deflecting one-liner that reduces to "I believe what I believe because I believe it", or the equally deflecting illogical non sequitur, takes more out of me these days than I can afford to give. It's not worth the energy expenditure anymore. I respond very occasionally, but most of the time, read the fray just for the entertainment value.

About racism. More than politics, more than women's issues, maybe more than religion, racism is THE issue in the US. It has been with us since our founding an is the thing that just will.not.go.away. No one is ever racist and yet somehow racism corrodes our ideals still.

Well, I'm admitting it. I am racist. i was raised in Oklahoma - which is overwhelmingly white - in the 60s and 70s, when it was even more overwhelmingly white. Is there any chance I would not have abundant racist tapes in my head? Not anything my mother ever said, because she almost never talked badly about any group of people. But all the casual, assumed racism of other relatives, the racism that permeated all types of media, and the racist statements that were made because it was assumed (correctly) that they would be unchallenged? Those I absorbed quite like breathing. As did most of us I suspect.

I've been actively working at un-learning it since my late 20s, when I said something that was graciously ignored by the person I said it to, but still embarrasses me to remember to this day. It hit me square between the eyes that I was racist. It was painful to realize this. It was one of those glimpses of an unattractive part of the self, that either makes a person dig deeper to try to understand and root that ugliness out by bringing it to light, or (more often) makes one turn away from the pain of looking. I chose to look and to dig, and I'm digging still. I think the old tapes will ensure that I always have to keep on my toes.

So, basically, I don't think there are many white people who are not racist. There are however, a bunch of us who think we aren't and are highly invested in not looking too closely to check. And the more violent and personally offended the reaction to the idea that you might be expressing something racist, the more the chance that you probably are racist. Think ministers or politicians who rail against gays, only to turn out to be gay themselves. Same kind of thing - methinks thou doth protest too much.

So I've ignored many, maybe most, statements on here that were clearly racist, in the interests of not fanning the flames, and because I've felt it's mostly pointless. Perhaps it's not. Like others, I'm not always sure silence is the way to go - I waffle from time to time - speak out, or shut up. It's a balancing act. Silence is sure as heck more personally peaceful though.

I hardly ever report stuff, because I just don't. It's not my style. I think I've done it twice? since I started on PS. It's also very revealing what people say when they assume no one will challenge them. I do like the idea of concerted stony silence when whole threads are started with a racist theme. And I confess to finding it entertaining to watch the increasingly frantic attempts to goad people into responding.

Annnd....thus ends my (probably) single "big post" of the month. Time to lapse back into my torpor.

 

[CJ2008]

I've been actively working at un-learning it since my late 20s, when I said something that was graciously ignored by the person I said it to, but still embarrasses me to remember to this day. It hit me square between the eyes that I was racist. It was painful to realize this. It was one of those glimpses of an unattractive part of the self, that either makes a person dig deeper to try to understand and root that ugliness out by bringing it to light, or (more often) makes one turn away from the pain of looking. I chose to look and to dig, and I'm digging still. I think the old tapes will ensure that I always have to keep on my toes.

Not the exact same story, but same for me...I have had thoughts that surprised me, and in those moments I felt embarrassed and questioned myself. And these sinking feeling that these thoughts meant I couldn't be any better if I had them. But what I chose to do what I promised myself is that whenever I have these thoughts I would acknowledge them, and dig...see where they come from...see whether there's truth in them, see if I can correct them.

 

[redwood66]

As far as the Michelle college thread from the OP I have made my opinion known that I think it is a ridiculous thread and my opinion of the issue is on the first page. I did not read all of it because it is ridiculous. Ruby does start inflammatory posts on occasion and I guess so do I, though less frequently.

But since some have decided to expand on that thread to obviously include me in their posts on this thread regarding racism I have to respond. I will not try to change any of your minds about me because if any of you think I am a racist then that is your problem and definitely not mine. It is interesting that the members some of you are talking about are conservative. Conservatives have known for years that the way some liberals shut down a conversation is to charge racism. If racism to you is defined by someone talking about personal responsibility, enforcing immigration laws, disagreement with the tenets of BLM, welfare abuse, and heaven forbid affirmative action (which is too charged for even me to discuss here at any length) or any other issue of the day then you are conflating racism with opposing opinion. I do not feel my race is superior to ANY other and that is the definition of racism. So it seems you are really talking about perceived prejudice. You have no idea what is in someone else's heart and nor do I so I do not presume to know, however many of you do make that presumption. Or even go so far as to psychoanalyze the offending poster. The hubris in that is astounding. Then there are those who feel the need to show the offenders the error of their ways by "educating" them. Also astounding hubris.

If the members here want to ask Andrey to ban all posters who disagree with the pack mentality shown in this thread then by all means do it. Because that is not a place I would like to spend time anyway. I already ignore the nastiest here but peeked in this thread to ensure I followed the conversations being discussed.

 

[arkieb1]

Ksinger, I think that is an incredibly brave and insightful post. I used to get beaten up when I was 5 and 6 at school because I have a white (half English half Scottish) very strict father and a Chinese with a dash of Aboriginal (black) mother, so growing up an a small country town the Aboriginal kids beat the s@$* out of me for being too Asian looking and different to all the other black kids, and a hand full of the white farming kids used to beat the s@#* out of me and call me "China Doll" and a heap of less flattering names I won't repeat here, etc as well.

So while I don't claim to know jack about being a black person in the US, I probably have a few insights into what it means to be discriminated against because of ethnicity. Being spat on by a man and called a number of names on a main street in Sydney is one example that comes to mind. And another is when a rich white family in another rural town I once lived in asked me when my husband bought me and brought me out to Australia (despite being a third generation born Australian with no Asian or other accent and not being what they perceived to be a "bought" Asian wife).

I actually think when thoughts and points of view are so entrenched unlike you Ksinger who obviously have taken the time to reflect and have the critical thinking skills required to do so, lots of people don't see themselves or their actions as racist, even when they are, and that IndyLady is the point, it's very hard to call out people on racism when you and I and others see it when the people who are being racist don't see it, possibly don't even fully comprehend they are doing it because they are incapable of doing what a few smart, enlightened people here have done and self examine what it even means.

 

[iLander]

THANK YOU INDY LADY! You have articulated what many of us feel about Hangout today:

Moderators, will you be doing anything about this? I feel like our community has been eroded by needling and discriminatory threads and posts--this was once a wonderful place to chat with friends about diamonds, gems, common interests, and popular culture, but feels very different now.

Hangout is being dominated by a troll, with false equivalency, lack of facts, aggressive tendencies, and apparently nothing better to do than attack others. When cornered she resorts to martyrdom In the Trump Tweets thread, I posted that Trump exhibited signs of dementia. I got this reply after being TOLD by ruby that I shouldn't post that because her grandmother had Alzeheimers:

As far as not telling you what to do, you jump on how disgusting Trump is. Well look in your own backyard when you make these types of comments.

Soooo . . . a false equivalency, martyrdom, topped by an insult. I called her on it, but then I left PS for a few more weeks. Again. Having to defend myself makes me feel bad, I hate to have to be that person, I hate that this troll forces me into that position. So I leave. I have no interest in dealing with Hangout's new Troll-in-residence. Which has turned me off of PS entirely, and I have found, through other social media, with which I now fills my time, that others have also left or reduce their PS time substantially.

I no longer see the ads from the vendors, no longer go to SMTB, no longer go to colored stones, and I'm not particularly interested in jewelry lately. My local RL peer group does not value jewelry very much, and without PS as my virtual peer group, my jewelry interest is not reinforced, so I don't look to purchase new items. I wonder if the vendors have noticed a drop in sales?

There is a negative association, a definite un-branding that is happening to PS. What used to be a happy, supportive place is now negative, divisive, nasty, rude, etc., and that association clouds all aspects of the entire PS site. But the owners don't seem to realize it. They are killing the goose that laid their golden egg. I have seen this happen to other internet forums; the trolls come in and drive away other posters, slowly at first, then it picks up speed. And then a few years go by, and the forum is empty and management can't quite figure out why. And the trolls are long gone. Why would I spend time in a place that puts me in a bad mood?

As for "we all agreed to allow political discussions", we did not All agree to THIS. I thought it would be a few threads that I could ignore. I did not realize it would be unbridled garbage spewing.

So, I'm off again. I might check back in a few weeks. But don't count on it. And thank you, Indy Lady. I miss you all.

 

[Tekate]

Oh dear! No apologies needed! Siamese3 and Tekate, great to see you both!!

I certainly didn't intend to seek apologies for folks responding to those messages. Quite the opposite--I appreciate and admire the people that have spoken up against inflammatory posters on the site.

Indylady, thank you and you know, everytime I reply to those posts I want to kick myself in the butt, because I know I shouldn't.. so peace and thanks for your post.. I will be sharing pix of my new trellis ring (when it comes).. (((INDYLADY)))))

peace to you and yours

 

[lyra]

I'm going to agree with Ilander. I've been avoiding PS a lot. I use the mark forums read every time I check in, mostly out of frustration. This used to be a great place to hangout. Now I'm supposed to just ignore racism, and other offensive posts, instead of PS moderators actually dealing with the problem? No thanks. Ignoring is IMO a form of condoning the fact that the subject matter is okay to post here.

 

[ksinger]

Ksinger, I think that is an incredibly brave and insightful post. I used to get beaten up when I was 5 and 6 at school because I have a white (half English half Scottish) very strict father and a Chinese with a dash of Aboriginal (black) mother, so growing up an a small country town the Aboriginal kids beat the s@$* out of me for being too Asian looking and different to all the other black kids, and a hand full of the white farming kids used to beat the s@#* out of me and call me "China Doll" and a heap of less flattering names I won't repeat here, etc as well.

So while I don't claim to know jack about being a black person in the US, I probably have a few insights into what it means to be discriminated against because of ethnicity. Being spat on by a man and called a number of names on a main street in Sydney is one example that comes to mind. And another is when a rich white family in another rural town I once lived in asked me when my husband bought me and brought me out to Australia (despite being a third generation born Australian with no Asian or other accent and not being what they perceived to be a "bought" Asian wife).

I actually think when thoughts and points of view are so entrenched unlike you Ksinger who obviously have taken the time to reflect and have the critical thinking skills required to do so, lots of people don't see themselves or their actions as racist, even when they are, and that IndyLady is the point, it's very hard to call out people on racism when you and I and others see it when the people who are being racist don't see it, possibly don't even fully comprehend they are doing it because they are incapable of doing what a few smart, enlightened people here have done and self examine what it even means.

Meh. It's not brave, merely an admitting of reality. I've always been something of a navel-gazer. And when there is something "wrong" with me, I always feel that I have the power to change it, or at least tone it down. (Thanks Mom, for giving me that confidence in my own power to change my thoughts!)

And just to put a bit more out there, thinking back (and back and back and dang that was a long time ago!) there was not to my knowledge (and this is key) overt racism at my high school, although I suspect this had more to do with the sheer lack of minorities there. We had one Vietnamese kid (the always flush with a hot car class drug dealer, I found out later) and probably less than 10 blacks. Too few to threaten I expect, so they were less likely to be beaten up than adopted as oddities. They seemed to blend pretty well, but I could be way off base in that. I never had a class with any of them. But that should just highlight again how homogeneous my world was until well into adulthood.

 

[Indylady]

Indylady, thank you for calling out racism on Pricescope. I have long given up because I am weary and have been ignoring a few posters because it was like hitting our head on that proverbial wall discussing anything with them. To say this is an important discussion to have though is an understatement and I appreciate you having the energy to talk about it here.

However racism and other hateful actions/beahavior/thoughts are a reflection of what is happening all over our country and yes all over the world. Racism exists. Hate exists. Do we allow it here or delete all hateful racist posts and ban the perpetrators? Will that delete the behavior? Will that stop racism from occurring? No, but it would make PS a better and kinder and more pleasant place to be so I see both your position and others (Matata for one who makes excellent points as always) positions as well.

I get where engaging in discourse about this topic is positive but is that true only when the discussion can result in showing that person the error of their unhealthy thinking? Or could it be that other people reading the discussion might be shown the error of their thinking so in that way be helpful? Is that possible? Or is it so deeply ingrained there is no hope for the people who are already thinking this way?

I realized a while ago that wasn't going to happen with a few posters here so I gave up. Because it was insanity (for me to continue as it was taking a toll on my well being). Repeating the same efforts hoping for different results. Some people are just racist through and through. Period. You won't change their minds. Or can you? I could give examples of people throughout history whose minds you wouldn't have been able to change but hopefully you get what I am saying without me bringing up those examples.

I admire you for starting this thread and I admire many other posters here for fighting against hate. In real life I hope we all do this. People are not born hating but they learn to hate so maybe people can unlearn it too. That is my fervent hope. I always believed that (many) people who hate others hate themselves too (but don't always realize it) and that might be an even more difficult fight because that is one they must undertake themselves and if they don't realize it what hope is there.

And then there is a saying about tolerance- in the practice of tolerance your enemy can be a great teacher so for maybe that reason alone it is important to let these discussions continue even if it makes for very unpleasant conversation. It is important to talk about hate because we cannot let it go unchecked.

We should always speak out against hate of any kind. Who can forget this haunting quote by
Martin Niemöller.

Your second paragraph hits the nail of it, and is also some of what Deb, Matata, and others have been discussing--does it belong here? What of someone's right to be bigoted? What is the harm? Is this "policing" speech? Wonderful to see you, Missy. You are such an incredible part of this community.