Reality check for collectors who sell

[Autumn in New England]

Hello all,

I have had a most unpleasant experience with a buyer. I am not a retailer... I am a collector who sells stones I no longer want. I had a woman contact me interested in a 2ct. padparadscha sapphire I had for sale. I had it certified as natural and untreated by the GIA and AGL. It had been purchased from the NSC. The buyer must have asked me 35 questions prior to the purchase, and I happily responded to each, holding her hand along the way. She mentioned that she is an amateur collector. I gave her a sizable discount, against my better judgment, as I knew I could sell the stone for more. But she claimed it was her dream pad and her father was sick and her truck broke down, and blah blah blah. Yes, I'm loathe to admit that it moved me. She also asked for a payment plan. Obliged. I also gave her a one week, no questions asked, return policy. She purchased the gem, eventually paid in full, and it was safely shipped and delivered.

The one week period passes without a word from her. Today, she wrote me to say she went to a jeweler who proclaimed the stone synthetic. She still wanted to keep the gem, but was demanding a $6,000 partial refund. I calmly explained there was just NO possible way this stone was a synthetic. I should also mention that I am a GIA grad. It is utterly farcical that this gem not only duped the NSC and myself, but also the GIA and AGL. She told me the jeweler saw "bubbles" under a microscope. I told her that was likely inaccurate, but that

natural sapphires can sometimes show gas bubbles, and that they are usually contained within negative crystal inclusions, which are basically mineral-shaped holes that have liquid suspended within them, and pockets of trapped air. So even if she and/or this jeweler were indeed seeing what they believed to be bubbles under a microscope, that is not a definitive indicator of synthetic corundum. This is why we have gem labs!

In any event, I asked her for the name and number of the "jeweler" and his credentials. She told me he was not an actual gemologist, but refused to name him. After some prodding, she divulged the store's name, but asked me not to contact them. "It's a small town," she said. Naturally, I call, and the owner has quite a tale to tell me. He said she has never been in his shop and he's never examined a gem for her. But he used to work with her and they did not get along. She was removed from the position, which eventually went to his friend. He went on to tell me some very troubling things about this person. Naturally, we were both very upset. When I relayed this info to the buyer, she erupted... a far cry from the kindly demeanor she had at the outset of this transaction.

So now I have a headache on my hands, and even though I know I am clearly in the right, I have no idea how this will play out if she continues to pursue it. I told her to have the gem reexamined by the GIA or AGL, if that will put her mind at ease. But she was furious I contacted the jewelry store, spoke with her nemesis, and "raised hell" for her. Of course, I had the absolute right. I'm not sure she understands how serious a synthetic allegation is to a gem seller.

I won't harp on and on. But I wanted to mention this issue here as a reminder that it is not only buyers who must be leery and stay vigilant. We take a chance every time we sell something, that there may be an unstable or nefarious individual on the other side of the transaction.

Sigh,
Autumn​

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Good Lord Autumn
If only i could pop over and put the kettle on
Some people have no scruples
What an ugly situation its become especially as you were so generouse towards her
btw i would never buy some thing off a private person on a payment plan
But you were trying to be kind

how can you get the gem back ?

 

[Autumn in New England]

Aww thanks for reading and commenting, @Daisys and Diamonds! Truthfully, I don't particularly want the gem back, as it was an honest transaction and she contacted me after expiration of the return period. But she's trying to keep the gem and demand a partial refund. I certainly don't want to be made to do that either, especially since her argument is based solely upon a fabricated story and not a conflicting gem report. So I have no idea where this is going at the moment! But it's nerve-wracking, for sure. I get the impression she is not done.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Aww thanks for reading and commenting, @Daisys and Diamonds! Truthfully, I don't particularly want the gem back, as it was an honest transaction and she contacted me after expiration of the return period. But she's trying to keep the gem and demand a partial refund. I certainly don't want to be made to do that either, especially since her argument is based solely upon a fabricated story and not a conflicting gem report. So I have no idea where this is going at the moment! But it's nerve-wracking, for sure. I get the impression she is not done.

Phew
but you have the money

It does sound like she is trying to pull a fast one over you
And you called her out on it
you are totally in the right on this
she is just being a needy bully

 

[Rfisher]

How did the buyer pay you? What method?

Did you transfer the actual GIA and AGL lab reports to them with the sale?

Edited to add: what platform did you use to sell that they contacted you on?

 

[Autumn in New England]

Yes, right now I have the upper hand. Hopefully she's not able to convince Paypal otherwise. They're not very well-informed over there, especially when it comes to the minutia of gem buying and selling. Thank you for the support, @Daisys and Diamonds!

 

[Autumn in New England]

How did the buyer pay you? What method?

Did you transfer the actual GIA and AGL lab reports to them with the sale?

We used Paypal. Yes, she does have the lab reports.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Seems like you send her a cease and desist letter or tell her to send the stone back and you will give her an 80% refund etc and then nothing is likely to happen.

In the retail trade as I have been for 46 years we get all sorts of issues every week. this mornings - lady calls and asks for me because she knows me (her husband was once my wifes dentist). Daughter was upset by my staff who booked her gold bangle bought at auction as 'yellow metal bangle'.
We never write 18k bangle because if it is stamped thus and fake we are liable to replace the fake with the real McCoy. This was of course explained to her but she thinks we are going to replace her bangle with a fake.
Yup, ruin a 46 year reputation and livelihood for a few hundred bucks.

BTW my standard reply to a customer who wants an appraisal done infront of them to go away and find someone else do that. If person has such low trust almost always they have proven themselves to me to be crooks.

I think your lady dear Autumn - is no lady and I would not trust her an inch!

 

[Rfisher]

We used Paypal. Yes, she does have the lab reports.

What a nightmare.
I’ll be very curious how this pans out for you. I hope you share the ending.
I’d like to think PP or credit card will not blindly refund them the money without any investigation - but I don’t know how these things go.
I’d hope records of the lab reports (if you kept copies or available online) and your initial purchase records from NSC would help?
Do they then arbitrarily debit your PP account if they feel like not investigating?
PP goods and services or F&F?
Wasnt there something about PayPal goods and services not protecting any purchaes with gemstones something something or other like that?

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Seems like you send her a cease and desist letter or tell her to send the stone back and you will give her an 80% refund etc and then nothing is likely to happen.

In the retail trade as I have been for 46 years we get all sorts of issues every week. this mornings - lady calls and asks for me because she knows me (her husband was once my wifes dentist). Daughter was upset by my staff who booked her gold bangle bought at auction as 'yellow metal bangle'.
We never write 18k bangle because if it is stamped thus and fake we are liable to replace the fake with the real McCoy. This was of course explained to her but she thinks we are going to replace her bangle with a fake.
Yup, ruin a 46 year reputation and livelihood for a few hundred bucks.

BTW my standard reply to a customer who wants an appraisal done infront of them to go away and find someone else do that. If person has such low trust almost always they have proven themselves to me to be crooks.

I think your lady dear Autumn - is no lady and I would not trust her an inch!

Arnt we generally more trusting in our part of the world becsuse the minute someone screws someone over the whole town knows about it ?

(Not at all related to your situation Autumn)

 

[Autumn in New England]

What a nightmare.
I’ll be very curious how this pans out for you. I hope you share the ending.
I’d like to think PP or credit card will not blindly refund them the money without any investigation - but I don’t know how these things go.
I’d hope records of the lab reports (if you kept copies or available online) and your initial purchase records from NSC would help?
Do they then arbitrarily debit your PP account if they feel like not investigating?
PP goods and services or F&F?
Wasnt there something about PayPal goods and services not protecting any purchaes with gemstones something something or other like that?

Yes, it was goods and services (I sent one invoice that she could make payment on in multiple installments). If it were F&F, she'd have no recourse. So, from my understanding, PP only backs your purchase if an item is significantly not as described. She has not a shred of proof in that regard, because it does not exist. So I hope any person at PP reviewing the matter recognizes this and doesn't become confused on a topic they likely don't really understand. The rep will probably be a rice farmer from Rawalpindi. No offense to them, but I doubt they'll know anything about gem labs and two-phase corundum inclusions. So you see why I'm concerned! Thanks for your help!!

P.S. I do have photocopies of the lab reports.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Yes, it was goods and services (I sent one invoice that she could make payment on in multiple installments). If it were F&F, she'd have no recourse. So, from my understanding, PP only backs your purchase if an item is significantly not as described. She has not a shred of proof in that regard, because it does not exist. So I hope any person at PP reviewing the matter recognizes this and doesn't become confused on a topic they likely don't really understand. The rep will probably be a rice farmer from Rawalpindi. No offense to them, but I doubt they'll know anything about gem labs and two-phase corundum inclusions. So you see why I'm concerned!

Good luck
we must all send positive vibs this will turn out in your favor, as is only right

 

[Autumn in New England]

Good luck
we must all send positive vibs this will turn out in your favor, as is only right

Greatly appreciated, my friend!

 

[Rfisher]

Maybe LT is down because they are implementing a buyer rating system - you can let the rest of us know specifically about this buyer


Wishful thinking….and yes I know it’s not realistic

 

[Autumn in New England]

Seems like you send her a cease and desist letter or tell her to send the stone back and you will give her an 80% refund etc and then nothing is likely to happen.

In the retail trade as I have been for 46 years we get all sorts of issues every week. this mornings - lady calls and asks for me because she knows me (her husband was once my wifes dentist). Daughter was upset by my staff who booked her gold bangle bought at auction as 'yellow metal bangle'.
We never write 18k bangle because if it is stamped thus and fake we are liable to replace the fake with the real McCoy. This was of course explained to her but she thinks we are going to replace her bangle with a fake.
Yup, ruin a 46 year reputation and livelihood for a few hundred bucks.

BTW my standard reply to a customer who wants an appraisal done infront of them to go away and find someone else do that. If person has such low trust almost always they have proven themselves to me to be crooks.

I think your lady dear Autumn - is no lady and I would not trust her an inch!

Oh my goodness... that is awful! Every single time I've had work done on my jewelry, they've listed the item generically as a "yellow (or white) metal set with 10 round brilliant clear accent stones," etc. No one lists the karatage of the metal or authenticity of the stones. That would essentially require a lab-level examination of the piece, which you would then have to guarantee. And you're correct... it's one thing to be cautious... it's quite another to be paranoid. If they're thinking the worst of everyone, it often times means they are the actual deviant. My buyer told me I could have had a "synthetic stone made" after certifying the natural gem, and sent that one to her. Cuckoo! If she wants to spend the money to ship the piece insured both ways and pay for a new report, be my guest. Oddly, she also keeps referring to it as a ring. It was a loose stone. Anyway... thank you for commenting!!

 

[Autumn in New England]

Maybe LT is down because they are implementing a buyer rating system - you can let the rest of us know specifically about this buyer


Wishful thinking….and yes I know it’s not realistic

lol They should! Like ridesharing apps or airbnbs!!

 

[yssie]

I’m sorry. There are so many things I want to say - but all of them are variants of “I’m sorry”, what a nightmare!! I would love to tell you to not worry - I know that’s easier said than done. But you 100% have the upper hand here, with actual objective evidence to back your side of the story up.

Please share the buyer so no one else falls victim to this scam artist.

 

[Autumn in New England]

I’m sorry. There are so many things I want to say - but all of them are variants of “I’m sorry”, what a nightmare!! I would love to tell you to not worry - I know that’s easier said than done. But you 100% have the upper hand here, with actual objective evidence to back your side of the story up.

Please share the buyer so no one else falls victim to this scam artist.

Thank you! I'm a little leery of sharing her name just yet. But as soon as I'm comfortable that this assault is over, I will absolutely name names, mate. Stay tuned!

 

[CaseyLouLou]

Thank you! I'm a little leery of sharing her name just yet. But as soon as I'm comfortable that this assault is over, I will absolutely name names, mate. Stay tuned!

I posted a question related to this topic of selling online on LoupeTroop not long ago because I was concerned when a buyer asked to use G&S instead of F&F. I said no because I am a private seller not a business and he disappeared but I was wondering how likely it was that he could buy my gem, claim something was wrong, pretend to return it and file a claim with PP. Or something like that.

I do worry about this happening in your situation but it sounds like you have all the paperwork to back up your sale. Businesses with higher volumes can accept the risk and may also even have insurance to protect them but we don’t have that.

I sold a spinel for less than I paid to a buyer in Canada (who I then saw had listed it on Etsy for a higher price.) But anyway, I properly insured the package using USPS and when she received it there was a $40 customs charge that she said has never happened before. She was furious. I felt terrible at the time because I had no clue I did anything wrong when filling out the mailing paperwork. I think I was supposed to call it a gift. I feel less bad now since she seems to think she can make a substantial profit reselling the stone.

 

[ShinyPink]

Aside from all the crazy "sell it to me for 90% less" requests I receive, I did have one buyer who insisted on not using F&F. She then emailed me a month or two later that the stone didn't look like the photos. She was going to return it for a restocking fee, but I never heard about it again. She did email since then to ask about a stone I had. She's blocked now.

You just never know. Most people are so nice. I hope she just goes away and you don't have to do battle with her. Your anxiety and frustration must be high right now! I'm sorry you have to go through this! Sending good vibes to you.

 

[Autumn in New England]

I posted a question related to this topic of selling online on LoupeTroop not long ago because I was concerned when a buyer asked to use G&S instead of F&F. I said no because I am a private seller not a business and he disappeared but I was wondering how likely it was that he could buy my gem, claim something was wrong, pretend to return it and file a claim with PP. Or something like that.

I do worry about this happening in your situation but it sounds like you have all the paperwork to back up your sale. Businesses with higher volumes can accept the risk and may also even have insurance to protect them but we don’t have that.

I sold a spinel for less than I paid to a buyer in Canada (who I then saw had listed it on Etsy for a higher price.) But anyway, I properly insured the package using USPS and when she received it there was a $40 customs charge that she said has never happened before. She was furious. I felt terrible at the time because I had no clue I did anything wrong when filling out the mailing paperwork. I think I was supposed to call it a gift. I feel less bad now since she seems to think she can make a substantial profit reselling the stone.

You did the right thing... you have no obligation to under value an item's declared worth on an international shipment or for insurance purposes. Taxes and duties are strictly the importer's responsibility!

 

[Autumn in New England]

Aside from all the crazy "sell it to me for 90% less" requests I receive, I did have one buyer who insisted on not using F&F. She then emailed me a month or two later that the stone didn't look like the photos. She was going to return it for a restocking fee, but I never heard about it again. She did email since then to ask about a stone I had. She's blocked now.

You just never know. Most people are so nice. I hope she just goes away and you don't have to do battle with her. Your anxiety and frustration must be high right now! I'm sorry you have to go through this! Sending good vibes to you.

Thank you for the support! So true... most of my customers have been a pure delight to deal with. I've never had a return (knock on wood)!!

 

[OreoRosies86]

Stories like this scare me so much
Sorry this happened to you! She sounds like quite the scam artist.

 

[Avondale]

What I find most surprising here is that she got not one but two certificates issued by reputable labs and still tried to lie despite that. Like, lady, what are you hoping to achieve? Maybe if the gem was sold without any certification, maybe, but you're staring at hard evidence that can't just be overlooked. Some people have the wildest thought process.

 

[demantoidz]

Between this and the F2 emerald, you aren't having the best time. What a nightmare.

 

[Mreader]

I’m so sorry this happened and she’s obviously trying to keep the gem for a sizable discount. Ugh. Has she actually filed a claim or is she still in just complain mode?

 

[RMOO]

Oh my goodness... that is awful! Every single time I've had work done on my jewelry, they've listed the item generically as a "yellow (or white) metal set with 10 round brilliant clear accent stones," etc. No one lists the karatage of the metal or authenticity of the stones. That would essentially require a lab-level examination of the piece, which you would then have to guarantee. And you're correct... it's one thing to be cautious... it's quite another to be paranoid. If they're thinking the worst of everyone, it often times means they are the actual deviant. My buyer told me I could have had a "synthetic stone made" after certifying the natural gem, and sent that one to her. Cuckoo! If she wants to spend the money to ship the piece insured both ways and pay for a new report, be my guest. Oddly, she also keeps referring to it as a ring. It was a loose stone. Anyway... thank you for commenting!!

Couldn't she have done the same? I once worked with a couple of individuals (borderline sociopaths) who tried to steal the company I worked for, out from under the other two partners. They were constantly accusing everyone else of the very things they were actually doing.

 

[bright&shiny]

@Autumn in New England , I don’t have anything substantive to add other than I hope this works out as it should: that she and her true intent are revealed to Pp and the situation is resolved in your favor! You are so eloquent and able to communicate clearly that surely that should help in your rebuttal should it come to that. How in the world did she find you?

 

[lala646]

@Autumn in New England Hoping for the best resolution for you. This lady sounds like a nightmare. I will share a cautionary tale my husband went through with PP last year. He had a very expensive graphics card he was selling, and was approached by a buyer. They had a very friendly and technical chat, and the buyer was interested in picking up the card that night. My husband was working, so the gentleman came to his firehouse to make the transaction. He asked if it would be ok for his wife to send the payment via F&F, and he received the payment instantly. All good!

Cut to 6-8 weeks later, and DH gets a letter from PP that there is a dispute on the transaction, claiming the payment was fraudulent, and the account of the payer had been hacked to make the payment. Turns out the guy was a complete scammer. We filed a report with the police, DH had images of the guy's car from the security cameras and the plates were stolen. The phone # was throw-away. The guy was a ghost. DH was out the $$$ graphics card, and had to pay back the money, and there was a small penalty on top of it. Suffice it to say, G&S all the way from now on for anything we can't afford to lose.

And yes, the CS reps we dealt with from PP were all from SE Asia, and very "on script".

 

[DAF]

If the item is disputed, I would hope PayPal would require an appraisal from a qualified individual stating that the item is synthetic. Hopefully you have copies or serial numbers of the certs to dispute. I think science (gem testing equipment) trumps visual inspection.