Reality check for collectors who sell

[Mooshi]

For what it's worth, I was on the other end once. I did actually receive a synthetic gemstone that was sold to me as real. I had to open a case with paypal (I also provided a written appraisal from a GIA gemologist saying the gem was fake), and they then contacted the seller to prove it was real. He of course couldn't, and since I had uploaded proof of MY claim, they ruled in my favor and gave me back my money.

I've also been on the seller end where I sold an item of clothing on ebay and a few months later, a case was opened against me where the buyer said their credit card was stolen. I responded to paypal with a tracking receipt showing that the item was sent to the buyers paypal-approved address on file. The case was still ruled in the buyers favor, but they didn't remove the money from my paypal account and said I was not in the wrong.

You probably have copies of the documentation showing proof the stone is real, and she obviously will not have any proof it is fake, so I wouldn't worry if I were in your shoes. HTH

 

[fredflintstone]

Hello all,

I have had a most unpleasant experience with a buyer. I am not a retailer... I am a collector who sells stones I no longer want. I had a woman contact me interested in a 2ct. padparadscha sapphire I had for sale. I had it certified as natural and untreated by the GIA and AGL. It had been purchased from the NSC. The buyer must have asked me 35 questions prior to the purchase, and I happily responded to each, holding her hand along the way. She mentioned that she is an amateur collector. I gave her a sizable discount, against my better judgment, as I knew I could sell the stone for more. But she claimed it was her dream pad and her father was sick and her truck broke down, and blah blah blah. Yes, I'm loathe to admit that it moved me. She also asked for a payment plan. Obliged. I also gave her a one week, no questions asked, return policy. She purchased the gem, eventually paid in full, and it was safely shipped and delivered.

The one week period passes without a word from her. Today, she wrote me to say she went to a jeweler who proclaimed the stone synthetic. She still wanted to keep the gem, but was demanding a $6,000 partial refund. I calmly explained there was just NO possible way this stone was a synthetic. I should also mention that I am a GIA grad. It is utterly farcical that this gem not only duped the NSC and myself, but also the GIA and AGL. She told me the jeweler saw "bubbles" under a microscope. I told her that was likely inaccurate, but that

natural sapphires can sometimes show gas bubbles, and that they are usually contained within negative crystal inclusions, which are basically mineral-shaped holes that have liquid suspended within them, and pockets of trapped air. So even if she and/or this jeweler were indeed seeing what they believed to be bubbles under a microscope, that is not a definitive indicator of synthetic corundum. This is why we have gem labs!

In any event, I asked her for the name and number of the "jeweler" and his credentials. She told me he was not an actual gemologist, but refused to name him. After some prodding, she divulged the store's name, but asked me not to contact them. "It's a small town," she said. Naturally, I call, and the owner has quite a tale to tell me. He said she has never been in his shop and he's never examined a gem for her. But he used to work with her and they did not get along. She was removed from the position, which eventually went to his friend. He went on to tell me some very troubling things about this person. Naturally, we were both very upset. When I relayed this info to the buyer, she erupted... a far cry from the kindly demeanor she had at the outset of this transaction.

So now I have a headache on my hands, and even though I know I am clearly in the right, I have no idea how this will play out if she continues to pursue it. I told her to have the gem reexamined by the GIA or AGL, if that will put her mind at ease. But she was furious I contacted the jewelry store, spoke with her nemesis, and "raised hell" for her. Of course, I had the absolute right. I'm not sure she understands how serious a synthetic allegation is to a gem seller.

I won't harp on and on. But I wanted to mention this issue here as a reminder that it is not only buyers who must be leery and stay vigilant. We take a chance every time we sell something, that there may be an unstable or nefarious individual on the other side of the transaction.

Sigh,
Autumn​

Sorry to read this. All too familiar.

The whole first paragraph was all red flags. Can't say how many times I heard sob stories to get gemstones from me in the past. The whole point being gemstones are a want not an essential need. I have told these customers in the past that instead of buying a gemstone they maybe should consider using that money on something they truly need. Even refused to sale a gemstone. Gently, but firmly.

All this I'm not saying to ridicule you. You are a very nice person, but sometimes you just must be tough and say no. Always someone out there looking to scam you. Unfortunately.

 

[CaseyLouLou]

@Autumn in New England Hoping for the best resolution for you. This lady sounds like a nightmare. I will share a cautionary tale my husband went through with PP last year. He had a very expensive graphics card he was selling, and was approached by a buyer. They had a very friendly and technical chat, and the buyer was interested in picking up the card that night. My husband was working, so the gentleman came to his firehouse to make the transaction. He asked if it would be ok for his wife to send the payment via F&F, and he received the payment instantly. All good!

Cut to 6-8 weeks later, and DH gets a letter from PP that there is a dispute on the transaction, claiming the payment was fraudulent, and the account of the payer had been hacked to make the payment. Turns out the guy was a complete scammer. We filed a report with the police, DH had images of the guy's car from the security cameras and the plates were stolen. The phone # was throw-away. The guy was a ghost. DH was out the $$$ graphics card, and had to pay back the money, and there was a small penalty on top of it. Suffice it to say, G&S all the way from now on for anything we can't afford to lose.

And yes, the CS reps we dealt with from PP were all from SE Asia, and very "on script".

This is a scary story! I thought at least with F&F it wasn’t disputable. Seems they would have needed some evidence of actual hacking.

Now I’m worried about selling anything else and using PP. I did use Zelle once and felt ok with that but who knows.

 

[seaurchin]

I kinda get the idea that you've already kicked her assss but just don't realize it lol.

Anyway, personally, I really hate selling. I've gotten so when I do sell (rather than just donate my unwanted items to a charity), I tend to make the offer strictly how I want it all around and it's either that or no deal.

People just ask for too many ridiculously steep discounts or know too many tricks or just unintentionally lead you into pitfalls (like surprise problem details with shipping outside the country or with various other payment methods that they request). I'd rather not make the sale than bother with it all. Of course if I was selling something worth as much as the item in this thread, that would be different.

 

[ShinyPink]

Is it mail fraud when the recipient lies and claims something mailed wasn't as described and then tries to get money in return from you?

 

[CaseyLouLou]

Anyway, personally, I really hate selling. I've gotten so when I do sell (rather than just donate my unwanted items to a charity), I tend to make the offer strictly how I want it all around and it's either that or no deal.

I'd rather not make the sale than bother with it all. Of course if I was selling something worth as much as the item in this thread, that would be different.

I, too, donate a lot to charity as opposed to using Ebay or Craigslist but with gems I do try to resell the ones I don't want or can't use in order to support my expensive hobby! I think your approach is the way to go.

 

[deco1]

This is a scary story! I thought at least with F&F it wasn’t disputable. Seems they would have needed some evidence of actual hacking.

Now I’m worried about selling anything else and using PP. I did use Zelle once and felt ok with that but who knows.

Yesterday the NY Times had a story about Zelle and rampant fraud.

Fraud Is Flourishing on Zelle. The Banks Say It’s Not Their Problem. (Published 2022)

Zelle, the payments platform used by millions of customers, is a popular target of scammers. But banks have been reluctant to make fraud victims whole — despite owning the system.

www.nytimes.com

 

[CaseyLouLou]

Yesterday the NY Times had a story about Zelle and rampant fraud.

Fraud Is Flourishing on Zelle. The Banks Say It’s Not Their Problem. (Published 2022)

Zelle, the payments platform used by millions of customers, is a popular target of scammers. But banks have been reluctant to make fraud victims whole — despite owning the system.

www.nytimes.com

I have seen those stories and I think it has more to do with people calling and pretending to be the bank. If someone pays with Zelle, it sounds like the bank is unlikely to refund them if they claim the payment wasn't made with consent. Maybe.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

The funny thing is, I told her straight away that the reason I was asking for the contact info was to call the person. And she still gave me a bogus name! But not only that, she gave me the name of a jewelry store owned by her arch rival!! You'd think she would have just refused to reveal it. What in the world? As we ended the conversation, the store owner told me he was calling the sheriff, who was a good friend. Apparently, she lives right around the corner from the store. So he's already taking this very seriously. And she slandered him terribly in our subsequent emailings. I'm afraid to send them to him and stoke the fire though. He's also a local politician, and I got the impression he does not mess around.

She is slandering him

that's terrible for a person in bussiness

Perhaps she will get her come-uppence over this

 

[lala646]

That is SHOCKING. I cannot believe PP did not back you guys on that transaction!! I'm thinking about all of the money I've exchanged using that platform, all the while believing I was protected. That's outrageous. Do you have any recourse against PP?

Zero recourse. DH believed since he had acted in good faith, had emails, and recordings of their phone conversations, that PP would affirm he too was a victim, but no dice. They threatened to send him to collections. Zero consideration at all. I would love to swear off the platform entirely, but it's really embedded in e-commerce at this point, so it's difficult. The entire episode was eye-opening, for sure.

 

[lala646]

This is a scary story! I thought at least with F&F it wasn’t disputable. Seems they would have needed some evidence of actual hacking.

Now I’m worried about selling anything else and using PP. I did use Zelle once and felt ok with that but who knows.

We thought it was really safe too, which is why he agreed to use F&F when they requested it! Funny thing is, in the process of everything, we were given the name of the account holder claiming the fraud, and when we searched the name, zero results. Like the person doesn't exist. Which makes me wonder if even that wasn't a part of the scam by the guy. I think PP just doesn't want to admit their system, which is supposed to be so safe, can be manipulated that easily, so side with the person claiming theft, even when the actual situation is much more complicated.

 

[CaseyLouLou]

We thought it was really safe too, which is why he agreed to use F&F when they requested it! Funny thing is, in the process of everything, we were given the name of the account holder claiming the fraud, and when we searched the name, zero results. Like the person doesn't exist. Which makes me wonder if even that wasn't a part of the scam by the guy. I think PP just doesn't want to admit their system, which is supposed to be so safe, can be manipulated that easily, so side with the person claiming theft, even when the actual situation is much more complicated.

There should be an appeal process - or take PayPal to court or something!

 

[VividRed]

So much of this doesn't make sense! Who on earth would be willing to settle for a synthetic (even with a substantial partial refund) when they thought they were purchasing their "dream pad," which was natural and untreated?

It makes a lot of sense if she/he is a scammer.

 

[demantoidz]

The buyer could send back something completely different. A pebble, even.

If PayPal tells her to return it for a refund, I would be very careful -- maybe even open the package at the local police station and file a theft report if what she returns is different from what you sent her.

I have heard stories like this. Paypal also can refund the buyer and let the buyer choose to keep the item. I don't understand under what circumstance that is fair to the seller, unless shipping and other fees cost more than the item.
I have sold a few cheap gems on Ebay with extremely honest descriptions and pics - even downplaying the quality.
I was scared every time that the buyer would end up being a crazy person who would just add stress to my life over 100 dollars

All this I'm not saying to ridicule you. You are a very nice person, but sometimes you just must be tough and say no. Always someone out there looking to scam you. Unfortunately.

I was glad to see you comment knowing you're a former vendor.
Hopefully OP knows no one here is ridiculing her!
We learn lessons from experiences like this, and by sharing, we are all learning in a way.
At the end of the day, a lot of human interactions (financial or otherwise) are based on the assumption that the individuals involved are trying to co-operate.

 

[thirdrock]

There should be an appeal process - or take PayPal to court or something!

Using PayPal friends and family offers no protection. It’s against PayPal policy to accept money for goods and services this way. They can shut your account down for doing so. That’s why PayPal refused to help and were basically treating the sellers as if they were the scammers.

It’s unfortunate that this happened. It’s far too easy to get scammed these days. I especially worry about some of the elderly people that may not be tech savvy. Technology changes almost daily and it gets harder and harder to keep up. There were always scams on vulnerable populations, but now the cons are far more sophisticated and on a global level. No one is completely safe from falling victim to some sort of scam.

 

[thirdrock]

I kinda get the idea that you've already kicked her assss but just don't realize it lol.

I agree with this too. I think she thought that nice = doormat. Clearly, she didn’t expect you to call her bluff by calling her nemesis. She’s the one that should be nervous! It sounds like the whole town is on to her bs.

 

[athenaworth]

Reading through this, I'm glad to see you used G&S on PP instead of F&F. Hopefully PP will back you up if she decides to do a charge back on her credit card. I had a reseller buy from me a few years back. She paid F&F and 2 months later the card holder disputed the charge. I had all of the proof that she not only received the ring but also that she resold it, but it didn't matter. Because the transaction was done via F&F I lost my money and the ring. Expensive lesson learned.

 

[Mreader]

Reading through this, I'm glad to see you used G&S on PP instead of F&F. Hopefully PP will back you up if she decides to do a charge back on her credit card. I had a reseller buy from me a few years back. She paid F&F and 2 months later the card holder disputed the charge. I had all of the proof that she not only received the ring but also that she resold it, but it didn't matter. Because the transaction was done via F&F I lost my money and the ring. Expensive lesson learned.

That’s AWFUL. I hate that happened to you!

 

[CaseyLouLou]

Reading through this, I'm glad to see you used G&S on PP instead of F&F. Hopefully PP will back you up if she decides to do a charge back on her credit card. I had a reseller buy from me a few years back. She paid F&F and 2 months later the card holder disputed the charge. I had all of the proof that she not only received the ring but also that she resold it, but it didn't matter. Because the transaction was done via F&F I lost my money and the ring. Expensive lesson learned.

That's interesting. My understanding, though, is that with G&S, PP will generally side with the buyer when they claim the goods were "not as described". If the buyer also claims to have sent the item back simply by providing a tracking number, there's no real way to prove that the item was not the actual item mailed. So my feeling is that no way is safe.

Most of us are just re-selling items we no longer want at a financial loss in order to recoup some of the money. A business can probably write off losses such as that but individuals really have no way of doing that.

 

[athenaworth]

That's interesting. My understanding, though, is that with G&S, PP will generally side with the buyer when they claim the goods were "not as described". If the buyer also claims to have sent the item back simply by providing a tracking number, there's no real way to prove that the item was not the actual item mailed. So my feeling is that no way is safe.

Most of us are just re-selling items we no longer want at a financial loss in order to recoup some of the money. A business can probably write off losses such as that but individuals really have no way of doing that.

There are still a lot of hoops we have to jump through as sellers to get PP to understand that it's a fraudulent complaint, but at least they can offer resolution services. They won't do it at all if it's via F&F.

 

[Autumn in New England]

I was glad to see you comment knowing you're a former vendor.
Hopefully OP knows no one here is ridiculing her!
We learn lessons from experiences like this, and by sharing, we are all learning in a way.
At the end of the day, a lot of human interactions (financial or otherwise) are based on the assumption that the individuals involved are trying to co-operate.

Oh of course! Quite the contrary... I'm super grateful to everyone who's commented! I appreciate learning from other people's experiences as well, so it's been most helpful and enlightening. Nothing further to report on my end... yet.

 

[Bron357]

Sorry you are going through this @Autumn in New England , I’d say she is just trying it on.
She isn’t going to send it in for another report, she wanted you to be a patsy and roll over and give her a big discount. You have record of the emails? If she generates a claim you will have adequate evidence that 1) the gem was certified natural by two labs and 2) that she wanted to keep the stone but at a huge discount. If the gem was synthetic as she claims, she should be wanting to return it for a refund.
With PayPal F & F is safe for the seller, the buyer who sends the money has zero recourse. Of course no matter where you are and how you receive or send money there are potential pitfalls and scammers.
Personally, I’m only happy to buy and sell to Pricescope people who I can trust or through eBay because I can vet the buyers.
Hopefully she will just go away and stay away.

 

[elle_71125]

I’m sorry you’re going through this. I think this women knew what she was doing from the second she started talking to you. Act sweet until she has the pad, then pretends it’s fake so she can have all her money back. I’m not sure why she’d think you’d just roll over, especially since you have all the lab reports, etc. Some people are just conniving jerks.

I hope she just goes away but my guess is she’s going to say she sent it to GIA and they labeled it as synthetic too. I wouldn’t accept her word on anything at this point.

 

[thirdrock]

With PayPal F & F is safe for the seller, the buyer who sends the money has zero recourse. Of course no matter where you are and how you receive or send money there are potential pitfalls and scammers.

It’s not really safe for sellers either. Athenaworth gave an example several posts back.

 

[Autumn in New England]

Sorry you are going through this @Autumn in New England , I’d say she is just trying it on.
She isn’t going to send it in for another report, she wanted you to be a patsy and roll over and give her a big discount. You have record of the emails? If she generates a claim you will have adequate evidence that 1) the gem was certified natural by two labs and 2) that she wanted to keep the stone but at a huge discount. If the gem was synthetic as she claims, she should be wanting to return it for a refund.
With PayPal F & F is safe for the seller, the buyer who sends the money has zero recourse. Of course no matter where you are and how you receive or send money there are potential pitfalls and scammers.
Personally, I’m only happy to buy and sell to Pricescope people who I can trust or through eBay because I can vet the buyers.
Hopefully she will just go away and stay away.

Thank you for the support and advice, @Bron357!

 

[Autumn in New England]

I’m sorry you’re going through this. I think this women knew what she was doing from the second she started talking to you. Act sweet until she has the pad, then pretends it’s fake so she can have all her money back. I’m not sure why she’d think you’d just roll over, especially since you have all the lab reports, etc. Some people are just conniving jerks.

I hope she just goes away but my guess is she’s going to say she sent it to GIA and they labeled it as synthetic too. I wouldn’t accept her word on anything at this point.

You know, she seemed confused that I was automatically done with her once we uncovered her lie. She was angry with ME for calling the jewelry store! But, truly, I believed her story at first and was only concerned with getting the jeweler's credentials, because I wanted my customer to be confident and satisfied with her purchase. Lie to me once though and I'm out. Essentially, she was questioning my integrity or intelligence, or both. So, yeah, not the crime of the century, but I agree with you. That's it for me now, unless I'm forced to respond via PP or a CC charge back, etc. Thanks for your comment!

 

[Kota]

Hello all,

I have had a most unpleasant experience with a buyer. I am not a retailer... I am a collector who sells stones I no longer want. I had a woman contact me interested in a 2ct. padparadscha sapphire I had for sale. I had it certified as natural and untreated by the GIA and AGL. It had been purchased from the NSC. The buyer must have asked me 35 questions prior to the purchase, and I happily responded to each, holding her hand along the way. She mentioned that she is an amateur collector. I gave her a sizable discount, against my better judgment, as I knew I could sell the stone for more. But she claimed it was her dream pad and her father was sick and her truck broke down, and blah blah blah. Yes, I'm loathe to admit that it moved me. She also asked for a payment plan. Obliged. I also gave her a one week, no questions asked, return policy. She purchased the gem, eventually paid in full, and it was safely shipped and delivered.

The one week period passes without a word from her. Today, she wrote me to say she went to a jeweler who proclaimed the stone synthetic. She still wanted to keep the gem, but was demanding a $6,000 partial refund. I calmly explained there was just NO possible way this stone was a synthetic. I should also mention that I am a GIA grad. It is utterly farcical that this gem not only duped the NSC and myself, but also the GIA and AGL. She told me the jeweler saw "bubbles" under a microscope. I told her that was likely inaccurate, but that

natural sapphires can sometimes show gas bubbles, and that they are usually contained within negative crystal inclusions, which are basically mineral-shaped holes that have liquid suspended within them, and pockets of trapped air. So even if she and/or this jeweler were indeed seeing what they believed to be bubbles under a microscope, that is not a definitive indicator of synthetic corundum. This is why we have gem labs!

In any event, I asked her for the name and number of the "jeweler" and his credentials. She told me he was not an actual gemologist, but refused to name him. After some prodding, she divulged the store's name, but asked me not to contact them. "It's a small town," she said. Naturally, I call, and the owner has quite a tale to tell me. He said she has never been in his shop and he's never examined a gem for her. But he used to work with her and they did not get along. She was removed from the position, which eventually went to his friend. He went on to tell me some very troubling things about this person. Naturally, we were both very upset. When I relayed this info to the buyer, she erupted... a far cry from the kindly demeanor she had at the outset of this transaction.

So now I have a headache on my hands, and even though I know I am clearly in the right, I have no idea how this will play out if she continues to pursue it. I told her to have the gem reexamined by the GIA or AGL, if that will put her mind at ease. But she was furious I contacted the jewelry store, spoke with her nemesis, and "raised hell" for her. Of course, I had the absolute right. I'm not sure she understands how serious a synthetic allegation is to a gem seller.

I won't harp on and on. But I wanted to mention this issue here as a reminder that it is not only buyers who must be leery and stay vigilant. We take a chance every time we sell something, that there may be an unstable or nefarious individual on the other side of the transaction.

Sigh,
Autumn​

Oh wow, sorry to hear you have to go through that. I'm a jewelry buyer and read your posted, that customer lady of your is trying to rip you off from the start by get your sympathy so you reduce your price...which you did, and now try to do a scam so you refund portion/half of the money back. Shame on her! Since now you know she lied and deciteful, you shouldn't continue conversation with her back and forth. You should keep all of this fact for your record. No refund should be issue. If possible ask the person who she claimed to examine her stone for her to give you a written prove that she was never there and she was trying to scam you of your stone and your money. In this case, if she does try to get her bank institute or PayPal to involve in getting her money back then you can send them your evidences. Don't bother to ask her to return the item back for refund because she probably will send back a fake stone.

 

[Autumn in New England]

Oh wow, sorry to hear you have to go through that. I'm a jewelry buyer and read your posted, that customer lady of your is trying to rip you off from the start by get your sympathy so you reduce your price...which you did, and now try to do a scam so you refund portion/half of the money back. Shame on her! Since now you know she lied and deciteful, you shouldn't continue conversation with her back and forth. You should keep all of this fact for your record. No refund should be issue. If possible ask the person who she claimed to examine her stone for her to give you a written prove that she was never there and she was trying to scam you of your stone and your money. In this case, if she does try to get her bank institute or PayPal to involve in getting her money back then you can send them your evidences. Don't bother to ask her to return the item back for refund because she probably will send back a fake stone.

Agreed, thank you! I hadn't considered getting it in writing from the jewelry store owner that she lied about having them examine the stone. But I may do just that, so I have it at the ready. He told me he would help with anything I needed.

 

[diamondyes]

This is a crazy situation! So sorry you have to deal with this. I’ve had 99% positive transactions on LT but the 1% that was sour really messed with me. I think from now on I would only sell to PSers I “knew”, or I would obtain referrals. It’s scary to think of how people can just say anything.

 

[Autumn in New England]

This is a crazy situation! So sorry you have to deal with this. I’ve had 99% positive transactions on LT but the 1% that was sour really messed with me. I think from now on I would only sell to PSers I “knew”, or I would obtain referrals. It’s scary to think of how people can just say anything.

Phew... I hear ya. You know what I really learned from this ordeal though? Choose the gems you purchase very carefully. Because reselling them sucks. I knew when I bought that stone that it wasn't exactly what I wanted. I should have returned it then, and saved up for the right one. Anyway, thanks for your comment!