Reluctant LIW

[TravelingGal]

Date: 10/26/2006 6:35:45 PM
Author: ladykemma
well i went back and reread the whole thread and here it is:

you are playing with a man's heart. you are already planning your divorce. you are already planning to leave him for two years.

I don't think you understand or are ready for marriage and i think you are making a huge social, emotional, legal, and spiritual complicated mistake. marriage is about thick and thin, hanging in there, Til death do us part. Marriage is watching your husband near death in intensive care, not b*tching about how you can't get sushi in lubbock, or worse, leaving him or the marriage just because golly gee, it doesn't suit me.

why can't you just come for six month visits? leave for two weeks and then come back.
or decide to be be married in the truest sense.

edited to add sentences.

I agree with some of the sentiments of what marriage is. I especially agree with Maria D that marriage is the decision to commit. But Galateia is in a situation that probably many folks have not been in, and I fully understand that unless you have been there, it is difficult to fathom what it encompasses...

Because Galateia has not had the luxury that many of you have had when you made the decision to marry your mate. She has not been able to DATE the guy on a normal day to day basis! Visits, lengthy or otherwise, are just not the same.

And hello...she has repeatedly said she is not ready for marriage! She's just not ready to give up the one man she's met whom she believes she CAN marry...not to mention one who is actually tempting her to leave her beloved Canada, and possibly go without good sushi.

So she has to get married IN ORDER to properly date this guy, in a way. It seems she wants to marry this guy, but isn't 100% sure. And how can she be? She hasn't spent enough time with him yet!! This is a technicality folks...she can't (due to government and her own financial reasons) be with this guy unless she marries him. How many of you have been in those shoes?

I have been there. I cannot tell you how many sleepless nights I have had because of the gut wrenching nausea that I felt over the whole thing. My man and I had visits. We expressed love for one another. But I was scared to death to MARRY him to find out if we could really be together on a day to day basis instead of the heady romantic visits. While I am not poor, I certainly couldn't afford frequent visits to Australia...plus who has that kind of vacation time here in the U.S.? Ultimately I realized that because I DO have such a heavy view on marriage, that I could not marry him to get him here...even though I felt I knew he was the one, there was just no way I could fairly really know for sure. Yes, I could have just taken the plunge and made the decision to commit. But I'm an independent, modern woman and my mind just won out over my heart in the sense that I couldn't truly commit without more face time than we had (or maybe that sounds more traditional than modern? Hmmmm). Galateia seems to be thinking the same way. The only difference between us that divorce for me didn't seem like an option whereas it is for her. That is her choice.

And even despite my decision not to marry him, I couldn't let him go. I'm sure it would have died a natural death, as many long distance relationships do - but fate intervened and he won the greencard lottery. I only wish everyone who has a LDR had the same luxury. Once we realized he could come "on his own", it just evened the playing field again and relieved a huge amount of stress. My hunch is that if Galateia could come on a work or student visa, she wouldn't be stressing about the move like she is. Even after everything we went through, I STILL can't imagine how hard it would be if I had married him to be together.

I'm pretty sure that one of us would have been dead.

ETA, I know Galateia said they lived together, but I still consider that an extended VISIT. I think it was for 3 months? Unless they both had their day to day real lives (i.e., see how they BOTH are after a day's work, etc), it still leaves behind a lot of questions about what you may not be seeing.

 

[janinegirly]

well i guess for me i just really don''t buy the "the paper marriage" is just a way of allowing the 2 to date normally day to day logic and "what''s the big deal, it''s just like engagement is for the rest of us" argument.
Paper marriage is marriage legally. I think if you''re not ready to be married, don''t get married! Have a long distance relationship until you are ready to marry him! Visit every weekend, take extended vacations there, etc. Yes, it''s extra work, but that''s the situation. I do not personally agree with the concept of utilizing a "legally binding marriage" as test marriage because i find it deceptive both emotionally and from an immigration level.
I guess b/c I can''t get past that, I''m not able to buy all other surrounding arguments. Only my opinion of course, and I''m just some anonymous person on a message board.

 

[TravelingGal]

BTW Galateia, I didn''t want to imply that marriage isn''t a heavy thing for you because you would consider divorce. I think that marriage IS a big deal to you, hence all this mental anguish over vows, etc. I think that is why it is so important that you view your legal marriage as just a piece of paper and a civil union, not a spiritual one.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 10/27/2006 1:29:26 PM
Author: janinegirly
well i guess for me i just really don''t buy the ''the paper marriage'' is just a way of allowing the 2 to date normally day to day logic and ''what''s the big deal, it''s just like engagement is for the rest of us'' argument.
Paper marriage is marriage legally. I think if you''re not ready to be married, don''t get married! Have a long distance relationship until you are ready to marry him! Visit every weekend, take extended vacations there, etc. Yes, it''s extra work, but that''s the situation. I do not personally agree with the concept of utilizing a ''legally binding marriage'' as test marriage because i find it deceptive both emotionally and from an immigration level.
I guess b/c I can''t get past that, I''m not able to buy all other surrounding arguments. Only my opinion of course, and I''m just some anonymous person on a message board.

Shades of gray, oh anonymous one.

 

[Mandarine]

I think we''re beating a dead horse here!

From an immigration perspective I don''t think it''s deceptive at all. It would be if she was marrying him just to become a citizen, but that''s not the reason at all.

Marriage is a huge deal to me but at the same time I don''t really believe in happily ever after...therefore I know divorce is an option. Not to say I would get married thinking that I will get a divorce, not at all. A relationship takes work and I would marry feeling, thinking and hoping that it is forever, but sometimes it just doesn''t happen that way.

I don''t think Gala ever said this was a trial marriage...maybe she did and I missed it, but I don''t think either of them are viewing it as a marriage until they exchange vows. If they are both comfortable with that then how can that be wrong for them?. If she wasn''t honest with him then ok, but that''s not the case here.

Ok, back to my conference call! hehe

M~

 

[TravelingGal]

Mandarine, I was going to say this after one of your earlier posts, but after reading this, I''ll go ahead and say it.

*ding ding ding ding ding!*

 

[Maria D]

Date: 10/26/2006 11:36:00 PM
Author: Galateia

And Maria, I struggle not to be offended when you say he 'doesn't love me enough to do his PhD somewhere else' as if he has choice in where he gets a placement. Are you suggesting he drop of out school and give up on his career just to be with me? What if our situations were reversed? Would it be fair to ask me to give up academic and professional career to follow the man I love? I would think that would trigger a storm of protest.

Galateia, I'm not suggesting dropping out of school, giving up careers or anything of the kind. You and your boyfriend seemed to have found a resolution you could both live with and be happy with. But then when you started hand-wringing over verbal statements and pronouncements it made me wonder. Again, I project your situation on to my own belief system. In my system, "engagement" is just the period of time between when two people decide they definitely want to get married and the wedding date. Saying yes to engagement is saying yes to getting married. Were I in your same situation I wouldn't be the least bit bothered about being pronounced "man and wife" because I would know that's where we were headed anyway. From what you write, this is not the case for you.

You said "I love him enough to commit to living with him." The converse of this is "I don't love him enough to commit to marrying him." Maybe your boyfriend doesn't have a choice in where he gets placed but we all have choices in our lives; it's not as if he (or you) are being coerced into anything. I would follow my husband to the ends of the earth today, or give up a career if needed, but I know I wouldn't have done that before we were married. Yes, I did not "love him enough" back then. Today, my husband would give up a career if I needed him to do so, but no, he did not "love me enough" to do so back then. So again, I'm projecting your situation onto my own value system/experience, and not trying to offend you. I hope you can come to terms with the whole "vow" thing.

Honestly, if you have lived together before, and you're willing to get legally married to be with him, AND you're willing to move to Lubbock TX of all places, I personally can't understand why you can't take the leap and commit to real marriage -- but that's just me. Obviously I'm a bigger risk taker than you -- and I think of myself as so conservative! Good luck Galateia!

 

[Mara]

I agree with both sides of the debate here...I think also that if you are willing to move to TX for him and do everything which that entails etc...you guys might as well get married! Because to me the mental desire to make the move is practically more binding than marriage in today''s world!! hehe. But you are getting married, in a way. So it''s all just SEMANTICS at this point.

So the other side of it, which is what I think is the most important point here, is that if you and he are fine with the scenario, and you both are, then who cares what anyone else thinks?!??! You aren''t hiding the info from him that you feel this way, you aren''t being deceptive, you aren''t trying to put one over on him. You are telling him exactly how you feel when it''s happening and he reassures you. Both of you have eyes wide open. So to me it sounds like you guys have it worked out in a way that works for you both. And that''s the most important thing IMO. As long as you two feel good about it and you are both educated on all the details....then have at it!

 

[galeteia]

TG, never have I been as relieved to hear your voice of reason soar above the confusion! Thank you. You have the right of it. I'd quote your whole post back on page 4 and highlight it, but at this point, if anyone hasn't 'gotten it' yet, your wisdom is falling on deaf ears anyway.

Janine, the fact that you suggest that we take 'every weekend' and 'extended visits' after it has been expressly stated that we are separated by an entire country and both poor as church mice speaks volumes of how much attention you truly are paying to the details of the situation.

TG, your questions about divorce made me realize that I hadn't made clear our thoughts on divorce, which may be a 'missing piece' based on the other comments people have made. We are not keen on divorce. This is one of the reasons why we are NOT getting 'fully married' (at least in OUR eyes) right away. Ever hear the saying 'marry in haste, repent at leisure'? We do not want that to be us. To us, marriage *is* a sacred and lifelong commitment. It's a very 'heavy' matter indeed, as you suspected, which is why we want to give ourselves *time* before we take that step. Yes, we want to take it. But when we take that step, it will be 'in sickness and health' for the rest of our lives, and we will be doing so on our own terms, not on anyone else's timeline. At the moment, we want to be engaged. This will be our 'engagement', and like all engagements, we are taking this step 'in good faith'. Or at least all engagements *should* be in good faith!

Mara, it really does just come down to what works for us. The more time I spend on here, reading about the stories of people whose lives and worldviews have evolved in ways completely alien to my own, and the more we argue stats back and forth, and compare and contrast situations, the more I am convinced that generalizations just aren't applicable because when it all comes down to it, every couple is unique and has to find their own way through.

 

[ladykemma]

well, according to the other post going on in LIW, canada marriage laws allow for "shack up" marriage (civil union?) that is easily dissolved. i guess this is where she''s coming from.

makes me feel sad.

 

[galeteia]

Date: 10/27/2006 9:08:03 PM
Author: ladykemma
well, according to the other post going on in LIW, canada marriage laws allow for 'shack up' marriage (civil union?) that is easily dissolved. i guess this is where she's coming from.


makes me feel sad.

Yep, that's where I come from; a place that also allows every adult to get married. It also protects the rights of children born 'out of wedlock'.

ETA: Of course that doesn't explain why FF feels the same way as I do, considering he was raised by conservative religious parents in the middle on Kentucky.