Roe v. Wade.

[Matata]

@swingtime Thank you for the swingleft link.

 

[Calliecake]

Thank you for the link @swingtime.

 

[Calliecake]

Forty nine percent of woman who seek abortions live below the poverty level. It’s unrealistic to think a young pregnant woman living below the poverty level could just up and move to another state and leave her family and friends. She will need their help just to survive.

I’m finding it very hard to believe the the state of Mississippi has programs in place to pay for raising a child from birth to 18. Mississippi has the highest infant mortality rate in the country, that alone shows how much they care about infants. It’s far easier to believe Mississippi has nothing in place to help these women and children. It’s interesting, has anyone heard plans any of the states that rushed to get trigger laws in place regarding abortion, touting the plans they have in place to help these women they are forcing to give birth? Churches giving baby formula and diapers isn’t going to be enough.

 

[Lookinagain]

I’m finding it very hard to believe the the state of Mississippi has programs in place to pay for raising a child from birth to 18. Mississippi has the highest infant mortality rate in the country, that alone shows how much they care about infants. I find it far easier to believe Mississippi has nothing in place to help these women and children. It’s interesting, I’ve yet to hear any of the states that rushed to get trigger laws in place regarding abortion, touting the plans they have in place to help these women they are forcing to give birth.

yes, I thought the exact same thing as well as the fact that they have a very high poverty level. Either the state is hoarding all this money, or they just don't have it to give away. So how will they fund these social programs that are supposed to be in place? And by the way, I have never heard that they are in place. And can't find any articles that say that they are. But I hope I'm wrong.

 

[missy]

"

Is the 'Abortion Pill' Also Restricted by State Bans?​

— "Arguably a state can't ban an FDA-approved drug," but access is dwindling​

by Amanda D'Ambrosio, Enterprise & Investigative Writer, MedPage Today

The Supreme Court's overturning of Roe v. Wade has led to increasing concerns around access to the abortion pill among patients and healthcare professionals.
Medication abortion already has a long history of strict regulation by the FDA, and many states had their own restrictions even before the Court decided on Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization last week. But as abortion rights have been returned to the states, jurisdictions that have restricted abortion will also likely restrict the medications.

After the fall of Roe, nearly half of states are likely to ban abortion entirely -- many already have. The Court's decision has made medication abortion even more difficult to access in some states and outright illegal in others.
Experts say there will likely be many legal challenges around the abortion pill in the future. Here's what clinicians and patients need to know about restrictions around medication abortion.
What Is Medication Abortion?
A regimen of two drugs -- mifepristone (Mifeprex) and misoprostol (Cytotec) -- is approved by the FDA to end a pregnancy at up to 10 weeks' gestation. Patients first take mifepristone to block progesterone, which helps maintain a pregnancy. Then, they take misoprostol to induce contractions and expel the uterus of its contents.
More than half of all abortions in the U.S. are medication abortions, according to the Guttmacher Institute. While the treatment is safe and effective in terminating early pregnancies, it has been heavily regulated in the U.S. due to FDA restrictions on mifepristone.

In December 2021, the FDA relaxed some of the rules on mifepristone, allowing patients to pick up the drug at their pharmacy or receive it in the mail for the first time since it was approved in 2000. This was widely celebrated by abortion rights advocates, as studies have shown that remote access to abortion medications -- including by telemedicine -- is a safe and effective way to end a pregnancy.
Research also shows that the threat alone of the loss of access to abortion has led more patients to seek out abortion pills. A research letter published in JAMA Internal Medicine found that internet searches for the abortion pill increased 162% more than expected in the week after the draft of the Supreme Court's ruling on Dobbs was leaked in early May.
Can States Outright Ban Abortion Pills?
On Friday, U.S. Attorney General Merrick Garland said that states will not be able to restrict access to mifepristone.

"We stand ready to work with other arms of the federal government that seek to use their lawful authorities to protect and preserve access to reproductive care," Garland wrote in a statement. "States may not ban mifepristone based on disagreement with the FDA's expert judgment about its safety and efficacy."
However, states with very restrictive rules on abortion or outright bans will also put a halt to medication abortions.
"If a state law bans abortion broadly, that includes medication abortions," Elisabeth Smith, JD, director of state policy and advocacy at the Center for Reproductive Rights, told MedPage Today.
Some legal scholars believe that state restrictions on medication abortion are subject to preemption challenges -- meaning that federal oversight of the drug trumps state laws. Because the FDA has approved and regulates mifepristone, it may not be lawful for states to ban it.
Greer Donley, JD, assistant professor at the University of Pittsburgh School of Law, said that Garland's statement "was really a nod to the idea that state abortion bans theoretically have to have an exception that allows the dispensing of medication abortion."

"All state abortion bans are going to include medication abortion, but arguably a state can't ban an FDA-approved drug," Donley told MedPage Today.
What About Telemedicine Abortion?
Despite FDA approval of mifepristone to end a pregnancy, many states imposed their own restrictions on medication abortion even before the Dobbsdecision.
According to the Guttmacher Institute, 32 states require that the provider who administers a medication abortion be a physician (although the FDA allows certified providers including nurse practitioners or physician assistants to administer mifepristone). Nineteen states require the person providing a medication abortion to be present when the patient takes mifepristone, prohibiting the use of telemedicine for the procedure.
"While the FDA has said medication abortion can be provided via telemedicine and the mail, numerous states enforce laws prohibiting telemedicine for medication abortion," Smith said.
Additionally, because providers are only licensed to practice medicine in their state, those in states who have secured the right to abortion could not administer the abortion pill to patients residing in a state that banned the procedure.

"There's not currently any legal way for providers to prescribe across state lines," Donley said.
Where Else Can Patients Get Abortion Pills?
But patients in states that have banned abortion still have some options to terminate their pregnancy with medication. Plan C, an organization that connects patients to abortion pill services, is one example that helps people find international providers or other online pharmacies that will dispense the medications.
Plan C directs patients to organizations such as Aid Access, an abortion pill provider based in Europe that ships abortion pills to people in the U.S. Patients can choose to consult with a provider, and self-manage their abortion at home.
"Because Aid Access is not based in the United States, U.S. enforcement -- whether private, state, or federal -- cannot reach them," Smith said. Under the Trump administration, FDA officials sent a warning letter to Aid Access in an attempt to stop them from distributing a "misbranded and unapproved new drug." Aid Access, however, did not comply, and filed a lawsuit against the FDA for violating patients' rights and placing an "undue burden" on the right to abortion.

As patients' rights to obtain a medication abortion are eroded in states with outright abortion bans, organizations such as Aid Access have preserved an alternate option.
"Certainly, the kind of cross-country care that has existed for the past 5 years is going to continue to exist, and likely become even more acceptable," Donley said.
While alternatives to obtain reproductive healthcare are available for patients who live in states that have banned abortion, abortion advocates say that efforts to eliminate medication abortion contradict evidence-based standards of care.
"Time and time again, medication abortion has been scientifically proven to be a safe and effective method to terminate a pregnancy," Smith noted.
"Restrictions against mifepristone and misoprostol are medically unnecessary and are based on misinformation," she added. "This just goes to show that restrictions on abortion have nothing to do with people's health but rather threaten the well-being of communities across the country."

"

 

[Demon]

Focus on the Family is based in CO. They must be expecting an onslaught of abortion seekers here (as do I) because I've never seen an ad from them, and yesterday I saw an ad asking for donations of $60 because "an ultrasound can change minds". I think there might be another personhood type of initiative on the ballot here again next election. They have always been defeated by a wide margin, but it looks like they'll try it again.

 

[whitewave]

If anyone wants to voice an opinion about New Orleans directing Funds away from prosecuting abortions in New Orleans (like maybe New Orleans is the closest city to you)

Here is the info:

 

[deorwine]

That’s my point. Personal anecdotes don’t get us far. We need to define abortion. What is it? Did we end a life or a non-life? If so, do we tell all women who have miscarriages to get over it?

I know @nala is no longer in this conversation, and I guess this post is going to be heavy on the personal anecdote, but I wanted to address this because I had a miscarriage at 14 weeks. It was the worst thing that has ever happened to me in my life (I've had a really good life) and the grief was overwhelming. I have moved on, but in some ways I'll never be over it.

I also know several women, including my own mother, who have had children die after they were born, ranging from newly born babies to children to grownup children. There is NO comparison. I can't even think about comparing the two. I can't even think about the pain involved. My mom actually both had a newborn baby die and had a second-term abortion later on when she found via prenatal testing that unborn child had the same heart defect her newborn had died of (and would therefore also almost certainly not survive), and while they were both extremely painful I'll give you one guess as to which one was way, WAY more devastating.

So... yes, for me there is a visceral and distinct difference between unborn children and children who have been viably born, speaking as one who has been there and who has someone close to me who has been there even more.

I will honestly say that I don't think it's right to refer to unborn children as a "fetus" (unless one is a scientist or doctor, in which case go for it). I actually did that for my first child because I didn't think it was consistent to be pro-choice and think of the fetus as a baby, and I regret that now because I think it messed with my ability to bond with her when she was born. But I do think that it's possible to think of the fetus as an unborn child, and love that unborn child, and still think that there is a difference between that and a child that has been born.

(One of the things that made me pro-choice -- speaking of trying to talk about things logically rather than through anecdote -- was actually miscarriage! I learned that 10 to 20 percent of pregnancies end in miscarriage. If you really believe that an unborn child is equivalent to a child that has been born, this should HORRIFY you. If there were something that killed one in every ten newborn babies or children, no one would rest until we had figured out how to stop it! And yet.)

 

[missy]

@deorwine I am so sorry for your loss.

 

[Snowdrop13]

I know @nala is no longer in this conversation, and I guess this post is going to be heavy on the personal anecdote, but I wanted to address this because I had a miscarriage at 14 weeks. It was the worst thing that has ever happened to me in my life (I've had a really good life) and the grief was overwhelming. I have moved on, but in some ways I'll never be over it.

I also know several women, including my own mother, who have had children die after they were born, ranging from newly born babies to children to grownup children. There is NO comparison. I can't even think about comparing the two. I can't even think about the pain involved. My mom actually both had a newborn baby die and had a second-term abortion later on when she found via prenatal testing that unborn child had the same heart defect her newborn had died of (and would therefore also almost certainly not survive), and while they were both extremely painful I'll give you one guess as to which one was way, WAY more devastating.

So... yes, for me there is a visceral and distinct difference between unborn children and children who have been viably born, speaking as one who has been there and who has someone close to me who has been there even more.

I will honestly say that I don't think it's right to refer to unborn children as a "fetus" (unless one is a scientist or doctor, in which case go for it). I actually did that for my first child because I didn't think it was consistent to be pro-choice and think of the fetus as a baby, and I regret that now because I think it messed with my ability to bond with her when she was born. But I do think that it's possible to think of the fetus as an unborn child, and love that unborn child, and still think that there is a difference between that and a child that has been born.

(One of the things that made me pro-choice -- speaking of trying to talk about things logically rather than through anecdote -- was actually miscarriage! I learned that 10 to 20 percent of pregnancies end in miscarriage. If you really believe that an unborn child is equivalent to a child that has been born, this should HORRIFY you. If there were something that killed one in every ten newborn babies or children, no one would rest until we had figured out how to stop it! And yet.)

I’d like to give this post a million likes and as many hugs. Thank you for your honesty.

 

[AprilBaby]

No, I haven't read the entire 213 page opinion. But I did read some of it. And searched it. I do notice that the word "fertilized" or "frozen" doesn't seem to appear in it. The word "conception" appears 7 times, mostly in the dissent. Can you point me to where the opinion says "Life is now considered starting at conception BECAUSE a fertilized egg can now be kept frozen and viable for a very long time" Because folks are definitely worried about the future of IVF but no one seems to think the Court spoke to it.

And I find this statement of yours interesting:

Mississippi wanted to ban late term abortions but allow up to 15 weeks. They have procedure in place to pay for everything after birth if a woman was later than 15 weeks. The state would take all responsibilities till age 18 for the child.

I thought Mississippi has one one the highest poverty rates in the U.S. So just what does "pay for everything" actually mean?

 

[yssie]

That writeup is a very graphic dog whistle that’s clearly designed to evoke an emotional response rather than a rational one.

A medication abortion requires no manual dilation and no parts retrieval. Prior to 10 weeks there is no “infant”, not even a “foetus”, merely an embryo. At 13 weeks - the end of safe medication abortion timeline - even if a woman does choose a D&C, the foetus is about 2” long and almost wholly soft tissue, no concerns about “legs getting ripped off”.

You know how medical professionals declare someone dead? They do it by lack of brain activity. I struggle to see an argument for calling a person outside the womb “dead” without brain activity, but a “person” inside the womb “who” hasn’t even developed a brain is somehow “alive”.

A late term abortion… Is something no sane woman chooses unless it’s because her health will be compromised or the neonate will be non-viable. Late term abortions #JustBecause are NOT a #Thing, no matter how many billboards might claim otherwise.

 

[seaurchin]

I knew someone who got a late term abortion, after she discovered that the fetus had some syndrome that would make it unable to live for more than a few hours. I believe she said there were only two places in the country that performed them at the time; she had to fly there. It was horrible because it was a much wanted pregnancy. She just wanted to reduce the agony on herself and her family. That's the only one I've ever heard of, personally.

It's weird when people seem to think women need to be controlled, to make sure they don't go skipping about having abortions for fun or something. It makes you wonder if they've ever even known anyone who's had an abortion and what all a woman (or girl) actually goes through with an unwanted pregnancy.

 

[Lookinagain]

I'm not sure what these pages are from, however, they do not appear to be from the actual SCOTUS slip opinion. I'm assuming that they are from an amicus brief. Any group on either side can file them in support of one position or another. That does not make them true, or the law. Here is the actual SCOTUS slip opinion and I don't find these pages in it, or in any of the concurring opinions or dissents. But again, I haven't read all of the 213 pages. Please post a link to the entire text of what you have included partially so we can see it in it's entirety.

 

[kenny]

Look, the glass is half full.
They're saving you money on books ...

 

[partgypsy]

So, I was thinking about how Mom's, there is an unspoken contract. That we would do ANYTHING for our kids, and we do. We put them first. We literally give of our bodies, our blood, the calcium from our bones and teeth, our breastmilk. We feed, clothe, protect, comfort, teach them. In the family the Mom often is the one to make everything "nice" whether it is cooking, baking, cleaning, going to church, emotional support, holidays and vacations etc including: Christmas. The unspoken other side of that contract is that women are allowed to plan their families. Whether they have children, or not. How many. And when in their life they have them. So they can be the best mom they can be. With the cancelling of that unspoken contract by revoking Roe vs Wade, many things have less meaning for me. That we are continuing on with business as usual, when it is anything but. I don't feel that I, after many years of voting, of marching, of women literally dying due to this subject, am considered a full citizen. We couldn't even get the equal rights amendment passed. Anyways I'm not going to do what I normally do for Christmas: re buying gifts. I don't want trinkets, I don't want words. I'd prefer not to buy for Christmas every year until we as women have the same rights as men, and the right of reproductive choice, including legalizing abortion, at the Federal level. I invite you to do the same 2022.

 

[Lookinagain]

Georgia residents can now claim embryos as dependents on state taxes

Taxpayers who have "an unborn child (or children) with a detectable human heartbeat" as of July 20 can get $3,000 for each unborn child.

www.nbcnews.com

I wonder if pregnant women can now drive in the carpool lane with on other "born" person in the car?

 

[stracci2000]

Georgia residents can now claim embryos as dependents on state taxes

Taxpayers who have "an unborn child (or children) with a detectable human heartbeat" as of July 20 can get $3,000 for each unborn child.

www.nbcnews.com

I wonder if pregnant women can now drive in the carpool lane with on other "born" person in the car?

It keeps getting more and more ridiculous.

 

[Demon]

It keeps getting more and more ridiculous.

I wonder if GA really thought this through.

 

[Lookinagain]

Georgia residents can now claim embryos as dependents on state taxes

Taxpayers who have "an unborn child (or children) with a detectable human heartbeat" as of July 20 can get $3,000 for each unborn child.

www.nbcnews.com

I wonder if pregnant women can now drive in the carpool lane with on other "born" person in the car?

I meant to say with NO other "born" person.

 

[Calliecake]

RANT Warning

I’m so angry I could spit nails. Kansas voted today on reproductive rights. Texts were sent out yesterday giving false information to confuse voters. The text message stated the following:

Women in KS are losing their reproductive rights. Voting YES on the Amendment will give women a choice. Vote YES to protect women’s health.

A YES votes strips away women’s reproductive rights. The texts have been linked to a ”R“ aligned firm. How is sending thesefalse test messages even legal? WTH
I’m so damn tired of this flipping war on women.

 

[Mreader]

RANT Warning

I’m so angry I could spit nails. Kansas voted today on reproductive rights. Texts were sent out yesterday giving false information to confuse voters. The text message stated the following:

Women in KS are losing their reproductive rights. Voting YES on the Amendment will give women a choice. Vote YES to protect women’s health.

A YES votes strips away women’s reproductive rights. The texts have been linked to a ”R“ aligned firm. How is sending thesefalse test messages even legal? WTH
I’m so damn tired of this flipping war on women.

That is infuriating. Article for those who feel like getting their blood boiled.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/08/02/kansas-abortion-texts/

 

[Mreader]

What’s really disheartening to me is all the stories coming out about women who need a D&C and they can’t even get the care they need because of the heartbeat bills. And that was before the Roe v. Wade reversal. Hospitals are going to be so afraid of being sued that women will not get the care that they need. It’s becoming a giant clusterf*ck.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/07/20/abortion-miscarriage-texas-fetus-stell/

 

[Calliecake]

Thank you posting the article @Mreader. Could this be considered election tampering? How can it be legal to deliberately lie like this?

The whole thing is sickening. Doctors and hospital are going to be afraid to treat women for fear of losing their license or being sued. Women are going to die.

 

[Matata]

Hospitals are going to be so afraid of being sued that women will not get the care that they need. It’s becoming a giant clusterf*ck.

They're going to get sued either way.

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

So glad Kansas was able to see through the underhanded misinformation and vote it down.

 

[Calliecake]

Kansas voters voted to protect abortion rights.

 

[Lookinagain]

I hope Kansas voters indicate what might happen in other states.

 

[rainydaze]

A well-known brand for pregnancy tests has been advertising and app you can use to scan the test for a 'quicker, more accurate' reading.

It just dawned on me that this is dangerous for women given the turn of events in this country. Much like the period tracking apps....

One more thing to be wary of. Here's hoping the majority of women recognize the danger of putting this app to use and opt to patiently wait a few more minutes for results and to trust their eyes.

 

[Lookinagain]

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/massachusetts/articles/2022-07-29/massachusetts-governor-signs-bill-protecting-abortion-access

Just for those who don't know, that the state is blue, but he is a GOP governor.