Ruby vs Spinel - Your expert opinions please

[Cockatiel]

I was under the impression the true Jedi spinels come in small sizes. I've never seen 10mm Jedi spinel for sale either. A 2ct Jedi spinel feels massive in my mind because I am used to seeing tiny ones only.

 

[Sagebrush]

Miki Moto, et al,

So many questions...Geography should have no role in the selection of a gemstone. Ruby whether from Mozambique, Mogok or Missouri is either beautiful or it is not and the more beautiful it is, the better it is. A year ago I sat in the office of one of Bangkok's premier ruby dealer, he had just purchased a multimillion dollar parcel and I saw at some wonderful Mozambique gems, rubies that would stand toe to toe in any comparison with Burmese stones and at a lower price.

Pigeon's blood (defined as a red to slightly purplish red of medium dark tone) describes the very pinnacle of ruby color and I have seen many Mozambique stones that fully deserve that accolade. From your description I would conclude that regardless of any certificate, was either very poorly cut (went dark in the setting) or not of that quality.

Spinel, in its finest qualities, is a beautiful gem. It is very rare in a truly red/red without a strong orangy secondary hue. Such stones are rarer that top red rubies. Stones of this quality normally come from the old mines at Kuh e lal not Mogok. My advice; BUY FOR BEAUTY!

 

[Nosean]

I was under the impression the true Jedi spinels come in small sizes. I've never seen 10mm Jedi spinel for sale either. A 2ct Jedi spinel feels massive in my mind because I am used to seeing tiny ones only.

There are larger "Jedi" spinel - expensive and enough customer who buy them - so in trade like a snowball in a vulcano...

 

[Cockatiel]

There are larger "Jedi" spinel - expensive and enough customer who buy them - so in trade like a snowball in a vulcano...

I bet they are crazy $$$! I looked into small ones that were barely 1ct and they were $$$ already!

 

[Nosean]

better $$$$$

Man Sin spinel - main source for "Jedi Spinel" - produces often oktaeder with a not perfect shape so if the cutter follows the shape to get the best weight you get an off-centered pavillion an a thicker top. Still gorgous gems! That is the reason for so many 5:4 cushions shapes...

So for a perfect cut stone they have to waste material - very expensive material...

If completely clean in top color the customer pays for the lost weight.

 

[arkieb1]

Some of the original "Jedi" was found in larger sizes, and yes there are larger size reds that come out of Man Sin and some really stunning larger reds out of Vietnam as well that are neon. I've seen neon red red Mahenge stones in the sizes you are looking for and the best ones were well over your price range so I'm not going to even guess what a true red "Jedi" would cost. (These days the dealers sell hot pink "Jedi" and IMHO neon red "Jedi" I've seen red red, red pink, hot pink, medium pink and an almost purple hot pink all described as "Jedi") You will find a really nice red spinel for that price, having said that. Does Vlad have any nice red spinels that size?

 

[Miki Moto]

@Sagebrush Thank you for your input. I love the red stone in that ring. Is that a Mozambique ruby? Also, forgive my ignorance here as I am a PS newbie... I am not sure if you are Richard Wise or just enjoy his book as I see it posted on your signature.

Secrets Of The Gem Trade is a fabulous book. I read the first edition many years ago and recently discovered there is a new second edition, so I purchased it as well. For those who are not aware, the second edition came out in Dec 2016 and is still available in hardcover. It's a great and very informative book:
https://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Gem-Trade-Connoisseurs-Gemstones/dp/0972822321/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

Speaking of books, for fun reading, the author also wrote The French Blue which is the story of the Hope Diamond. I've read other books on the Hope diamond, but this one to me is the best:
https://www.amazon.com/French-Blue-...id=1522707333&sr=1-1&keywords=the+french+blue

Back to rubies...
@arkieb1 I have been back to Vlad's website, IvyNewYork, multiple times. His spinels are very small, nearly all are 1-2 ct range. They are not pricey though, nearly all are less than $10K. None were the true red I prefer as in the ruby ring from my earlier post. I did not contact Vlad again as I know he is not the dealer for me due to his super fine stones and high price point (even his 3ct. rubies were $30K-$50K). Hence I don't want to bother him if I don't plan to purchase from him.

Everyone's input has been really helpful to help me understand ruby vs spinel. The real photos (not website loose stone photos) have been the best part!

My gut is I will stay with a ruby. A spinel at first seems a lower price point, but not for the true red, 10x8 stone I am seeking so I think I will have better luck finding a ruby. I think what I need to do is go to the show, find a dealer I like and then work him to secure a stone. I do know of a Colombian emerald dealer who I like a lot (Daniel Sanchez), a very nice gentlemen. I bought my emerald from him at the Tucson show back in February. As we were speaking, I told him I liked Burmese rubies as well. He said there are some very nice ones from Mozambique. That comment did not stick with me until my hunt for a ruby started so perhaps he has some rubies too.

I'm not going to worry about native cut vs precision cut and will focus on color as others have said before. I am really not that picky... for a stone, it's usually very black and white to me.. yes or no. I bought my Ceylon sapphire in 15 minutes. At the show in February, I found the emerald that was "the one" after 10 minutes (but it took 3 days for me to go back and buy it since I felt I had to walk all over Tucson and see the booths to be sure it was "the one"). I think I will find a stone at the show when I see it. Or as they say... the stone will find me.

 

[Sagebrush]

Miki Moto,

Thanks for the kind words. In the final analysis writer's write to be read so I very much appreciate your kind words about my books. (below: Sunset over the Irrawadi River, Pagan, Burma)

I agree with you. Ruby and spinel are different animals. The finest spinel available today is either pink red Mahenge, Loc Yen or Namya or the so-called Jedi and spinel and the best of them do not look at all like ruby. Saturation, not hue is the key factor. Spinel has finally emerged from ruby's shadow and come into its own and is judged by its own standard.

Oddly enough from its first discovery until about the 17th century, spinel was very highly regarded...perhaps because the standard was set by the European royal houses and bigger was definitely better and ruby was almost unobtainable above six carats.

At any rate, think Mozambique. The gem comes in a range of qualities due to variable amounts of iron in the crystal. Some resembles the high iron Thai material from the diggings that stretched from Chantthaburi and into Cambodia, some is every bit as good as the best Mogok has ever produced.

If you wander around Tucson, sooner or later your ruby will find you.

Best of luck,

Richard W. Wise

 

[colorluvr]

This is my red red Mahenge spinel that I bought from PrimagemsUSA about 5 years ago. It was set for a while, but now it is living in my gembox. I recently asked Jaimeen what it would cost today and he said he'd probably sell it to a repeat customer (like me) for approx $5000 a ct and it's 3ct. and just over 8mm. He said it would be much more full retail. It's as pure a red as I've seen in a Mahenge spinel and not easy to come by in this size. AJS have a couple and they want ~$30,000ea for them. Please pardon the crappy cell photo, but I wanted you to see that Mahenge's do come in red red - they just aren't easy to find. This one also happens to be precision cut. It used to be in the setting that is in my avatar, but the sapphire needed a setting where it sat up above the diamonds so light can shine through it so I swapped out the spinel but haven't found that perfect setting for the spinel yet.

 

[Sagebrush]

Colorluvr.

Getting it on the ground floor or even on the 1st floor definitely pays in the gem world. The hue certainly appears to be a true red with little by way of a secondary hue and more highly saturated and a purer red hue than the gems from the classic source in Tajikistan. That hue is quite rare in Mahenge which normally have a distinct pinkish secondary, in fact are usually more reddish pink than pinkish red.

Salute,
RWW

 

[Miki Moto]

@colorluvr Very nice spinel!

All these photos of spinels have really gotten me thinking. But.... the Wise one (aka @Sagebrush ) has spoken and it’s Mozambique I will be on the hunt for. I think that is the stone for me.

I have been hunting for Mozambique rubies online just to see what is out there and to get educated...see my perfect red here in this photo. I just love this red, at least the shade on my laptop and iPhone photo. This is from the Gemfields website (select ruby) which I took a photo of to save and stare at. I knew they were big with Zambian emeralds but I did not know they did rubies.

 

[colorluvr]

Colorluvr.

Getting it on the ground floor or even on the 1st floor definitely pays in the gem world. The hue certainly appears to be a true red with little by way of a secondary hue and more highly saturated and a purer red hue than the gems from the classic source in Tajikistan. That hue is quite rare in Mahenge which normally have a distinct pinkish secondary, in fact are usually more reddish pink than pinkish red.

Salute,
RWW

Pinkish red 4.42 ct Mahenge purchased shortly after the red. As you can see it has some inclusions (which was the reason I could afford it) but they aren't visible at arm's length.

 

[colorluvr]

Pinkish red 4.42 ct Mahenge purchased shortly after the red. As you can see it has some inclusions (which was the reason I could afford it) but they aren't visible at arm's length.

2.22 ct vivid pink Mahenge (also with inclusions) purchased about 5 years ago also. The inclusions in this one are more visible, but this one is truly neon.

 

[colorluvr]

Burma spinel that is a tad bit lighter IRL and very ruby looking. I have seen a few rubies that make you suck in your breathe, they are so beautiful, but most of the ones I see, even the ones with a big price tag are somewhat opaque and not as vibrant as the spinels. My local jeweler offered me a great deal on a ruby ring (unheated with AGL cert) but it was only 1ct and even though it's a gorgeous ruby, my old hands don't look good with dainty rings anymore so I passed.

 

[colorluvr]

Pinkish red 4.42 ct Mahenge purchased shortly after the red. As you can see it has some inclusions (which was the reason I could afford it) but they aren't visible at arm's length.

This one shows the true color of the pear Mahenge spinel much better than the first one I posted.

 

[Sagebrush]

Colorlvr,
Good examples of "classic" Mahenge color. I particularly like the pink/padparadscha hue with the orangey secondary hue. Do I detect a note of orange in your pear?

Enjoy,

RWW

 

[colorluvr]

Colorlvr,
Good examples of "classic" Mahenge color. I particularly like the pink/padparadscha hue with the orangey secondary hue. Do I detect a note of orange in your pear?

Enjoy,

RWW

According to Jaimeen at PrimagemsUSA (when he sold it to me) he said it was pure pink. I don't see any orange, but then I'm not the best when it comes to secondary hues.

 

[canuk-gal]

HI:

You've probably seen the spinel and rubies on Leon Mege's site.....

cheers--Sharon

 

[corundum_conundrum]

@colorluvr Very nice spinel!

All these photos of spinels have really gotten me thinking. But.... the Wise one (aka @Sagebrush ) has spoken and it’s Mozambique I will be on the hunt for. I think that is the stone for me.

I have been hunting for Mozambique rubies online just to see what is out there and to get educated...see my perfect red here in this photo. I just love this red, at least the shade on my laptop and iPhone photo. This is from the Gemfields website (select ruby) which I took a photo of to save and stare at. I knew they were big with Zambian emeralds but I did not know they did rubies.

It's probably too pink for you, but this one looks really nice:

https://www.finewatergems.com/store/p402/2.03_ct_Burmese_Red_Spinel.html

 

[Starfacet]

This one shows the true color of the pear Mahenge spinel much better than the first one I posted.

The stone is fabulous and I'd love to know who made the setting!

 

[Barrett]

Pigeon’s blood is really a darker shade of red or purplish red. I’ve checked stones labeled pigeon’s blood with reports from reputable labs and saw the same shades. The only pigeon blood I like within the range is vivid red close to medium range with no purple.

If you want the fire engine red, you will have better luck with Mozambican. If you opt for Burmese, ask for rabbit’s blood color, they will be close to the red you are looking for.

Also, the color depends on the country you live. If it has gray weather most of the time with less sunshine, stones may look red to you often. Say a stone that’s is bought pinkish red in Thailand can look redder in Japan, thus the Japan market prefer the pinkish modifier. The pigeon blood may look better in Myanmar but way darker in Northern countries where there’s not much sunshine and always cloudy and therefore, the coveted Burmese ruby fluorescence will not give its visual impact often.

Spinel being singly refractive can be a good thing. No pleochroism to shift colors to purple, or pink, or orange so you can get a pure red visually.

It Is so difficult to find a highly transparent, fire engine red ruby, and spinel fills the gap. I think most rubies will find it difficult to top Namya and Jedi spinels which are the best reds I’ve seen. I’ve seen very few rubies of such caliber but they exist, with astronomical price tags, ofcourse.

So my vote goes to Namya and Jedi spinels for the very saturated reds. You may also check Vietnamese reds, as they can also occur in pure, vivid reds..

Seaglow nailed it...spinel all day long!
Most rubies are crap....
The good colored ones are waaaay to expensive for most folks, so.......spinel is the way to go!

Unless your "Daddy Warbucks" or know "Uncle Deep Pockets", then your money is better spent and goes farther with spinel than it does ruby.

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

It took me two years to find a red spinel in my price range that had the qualities that I love in a ruby. I have not been lucky with red Mahenge spinels. I wasn't lucky enough to buy the good ones like other PS posters did when they first were mined. The ones I recieved always blacked out in sunlight unlike the pink/reds that turn more neon. Here is a picture of my red burma spinel. IMHO very ruby like.

 

[Burmesedaze]

It took me two years to find a red spinel in my price range that had the qualities that I love in a ruby. I have not been lucky with red Mahenge spinels. I wasn't lucky enough to buy the good ones like other PS posters did when they first were mined. The ones I recieved always blacked out in sunlight unlike the pink/reds that turn more neon. Here is a picture of my red burma spinel. IMHO very ruby like.

Even this shade isn't easy to find in such sizes and EC now!

 

[AGBF]

Like LisaRN, I have a a Burmese red spinel. (In fact, I have two of them.) This is the more recent and the larger of my two and the only one I had sent to a lab. It is a truly perfect stone. At least for me. It is exactly the red I wanted, after many years of looking.

(The first one I bought, of just over 1 carat, was also perfect. Richard Hughes looked at it himself. But it was too delicate inside; perfect spinels can be delicate to their crystal structure, and I opted to return it to the vendor in an excess of caution that it might one day crack. The replacement stone I got was not as pure a red! It was pinker. But the story of that stone is irrelevant to this stone.)









Deb/AGBF

 

[AGBF]

Burma spinel that is a tad bit lighter IRL and very ruby looking. I have seen a few rubies that make you suck in your breathe, they are so beautiful, but most of the ones I see, even the ones with a big price tag are somewhat opaque and not as vibrant as the spinels. My local jeweler offered me a great deal on a ruby ring (unheated with AGL cert) but it was only 1ct and even though it's a gorgeous ruby, my old hands don't look good with dainty rings anymore so I passed.

colorluvr-I do not usually like halo-ed rings, but yours is gorgeous. It looks like a snowflake confection and the spinel looks even more gorgeous! What a stone!

Deb

 

[colorluvr]

The stone is fabulous and I'd love to know who made the setting!

Sorry I didn't respond sooner, been MIA. David Klass made the setting but the design is the "Intrepid" by Elle W of the Gemstone Project.

 

[canuk-gal]

Like LisaRN, I have a a Burmese red spinel. (In fact, I have two of them.) This is the more recent and the larger of my two and the only one I had sent to a lab. It is a truly perfect stone. At least for me. It is exactly the red I wanted, after many years of looking.

(The first one I bought, of just over 1 carat, was also perfect. Richard Hughes looked at it himself. But it was too delicate inside; perfect spinels can be delicate to their crystal structure, and I opted to return it to the vendor in an excess of caution that it might one day crack. The replacement stone I got was not as pure a red! It was pinker. But the story of that stone is irrelevant to this stone.)









Deb/AGBF[/QUOTE

Such a special ring. Wish it were mine!

 

[Miki Moto]

@AGBF your spinel is beautiful! Where did you buy it if I may ask? Was it online? The setting is lovely also!

 

[Miki Moto]

This is my red red Mahenge spinel that I bought from PrimagemsUSA about 5 years ago. It was set for a while, but now it is living in my gembox. I recently asked Jaimeen what it would cost today and he said he'd probably sell it to a repeat customer (like me) for approx $5000 a ct and it's 3ct. and just over 8mm. He said it would be much more full retail. It's as pure a red as I've seen in a Mahenge spinel and not easy to come by in this size. AJS have a couple and they want ~$30,000ea for them. Please pardon the crappy cell photo, but I wanted you to see that Mahenge's do come in red red - they just aren't easy to find. This one also happens to be precision cut. It used to be in the setting that is in my avatar, but the sapphire needed a setting where it sat up above the diamonds so light can shine through it so I swapped out the spinel but haven't found that perfect setting for the spinel yet.

What is the orange stone? It’s quite pretty!

 

[colorluvr]

What is the orange stone? It’s quite pretty!

It is a spessartite garnet from PrimagemsUSA. The green stone is a Merelani Mint, cut by Gene Flanigan. It looks washed out in this photo, it is more vibrant in person.