Ruby vs Spinel - Your expert opinions please

[GolfingGreen]

Hi! I would like to get your expert opinions on a Ruby vs. Spinel. I know Burmese, pigeon-blood is supposed to be the reference, but I had one and was very disappointed it was so dark red. I now know I prefer a stop-light red.

Can the experts out there please share with me your thoughts and experience on rubies and your preference? Do you prefer Burmese or Mozambique? I have not seen a lot of fine rubies (most are very dark or very included), but I did see a Mozambique ruby that was just beautiful. What are you thoughts on Mozambique? Are they viewed as significantly inferior in the trade? And why?

What about a red spinel? I am not interested in the Mahenge Spinel as they are too pink. I am inquiring more about a pure red spinel. Do you like spinel? Is it considered an inferior stone to the ruby? What does it mean for a spinel to be singly refractive and is that a good or bad thing compared to a ruby?

Thank you in advance.

 

[Starfacet]

I have a small oval red spinel that I love. The color is a nice even rich red, not purple-red. The rest of your questions I can't answer as I usually just buy stones if I like them, not caring about their provenance. Besides, I'm always on a budget!

 

[GolfingGreen]

I have a small oval red spinel that I love. The color is a nice even rich red, not purple-red. The rest of your questions I can't answer as I usually just buy stones if I like them, not caring about their provenance. Besides, I'm always on a budget!

I would love to see your red spinel! It sounds gorgeous.

 

[Starfacet]

Wow, this stone needs a good cleaning! But here are some not-so-great photos of it!

 

[GolfingGreen]

@Starfacet It's beautiful, and I like the setting too! Very nice!

 

[Starfacet]

@Starfacet It's beautiful, and I like the setting too! Very nice!

Thank you so much!

 

[Burmesedaze]

Same like you, I was disappointed by my sub carat Mogok pigeon blood. It got darker after setting owing too The thick basket. So I've given up on these terms and just go for colour. Jets my current favourite red. An included Mogok red spinel.

 

[Seaglow]

Pigeon’s blood is really a darker shade of red or purplish red. I’ve checked stones labeled pigeon’s blood with reports from reputable labs and saw the same shades. The only pigeon blood I like within the range is vivid red close to medium range with no purple.

If you want the fire engine red, you will have better luck with Mozambican. If you opt for Burmese, ask for rabbit’s blood color, they will be close to the red you are looking for.

Also, the color depends on the country you live. If it has gray weather most of the time with less sunshine, stones may look red to you often. Say a stone that’s is bought pinkish red in Thailand can look redder in Japan, thus the Japan market prefer the pinkish modifier. The pigeon blood may look better in Myanmar but way darker in Northern countries where there’s not much sunshine and always cloudy and therefore, the coveted Burmese ruby fluorescence will not give its visual impact often.

Spinel being singly refractive can be a good thing. No pleochroism to shift colors to purple, or pink, or orange so you can get a pure red visually.

It Is so difficult to find a highly transparent, fire engine red ruby, and spinel fills the gap. I think most rubies will find it difficult to top Namya and Jedi spinels which are the best reds I’ve seen. I’ve seen very few rubies of such caliber but they exist, with astronomical price tags, ofcourse.

So my vote goes to Namya and Jedi spinels for the very saturated reds. You may also check Vietnamese reds, as they can also occur in pure, vivid reds..

 

[Bron357]

I think with rubies it’s harder to find a pure red with good clarity. And more expensive. I think if you have a particular colour, size and clarity in mind, don’t worry about it being ruby or spinel, chose the gem not the name as they are close in hardness so durability isn’t an issue. And as for origin, Burmese rubies have the “name” but newer sources of rubies are producing very beautiful gems that are being held in high esteem whereas in Burma they seem to be “scrapping the bottom of the barrel” and it’s not often they find superb examples like they did decades ago.

 

[chatoyancy]

I think you should just go for color. Also, everyone on here warns about treatment in rubies (glass filling, diffusion, etc.). I would be so cautious.
Does anyone else on here cringe when they see or hear reference to pigeon’s blood or rabbit’s blood? I just think of bleeding pigeons and bunnies.

 

[chatoyancy]

Same like you, I was disappointed by my sub carat Mogok pigeon blood. It got darker after setting owing too The thick basket. So I've given up on these terms and just go for colour. Jets my current favourite red. An included Mogok red spinel.

That is RED!

 

[chatoyancy]

Wow, this stone needs a good cleaning! But here are some not-so-great photos of it!

Beautiful! I love that setting. It is so feminine.

 

[Starfacet]

Beautiful! I love that setting. It is so feminine.

Thank you @chatoyancy! It was one of my first purchases when I started buying fine jewelry!

 

[suzanne2]

Same like you, I was disappointed by my sub carat Mogok pigeon blood. It got darker after setting owing too The thick basket. So I've given up on these terms and just go for colour. Jets my current favourite red. An included Mogok red spinel.

This ring is beautiful and stunning and amazing. The color just leaps out at you. This color is my holy grail.

 

[livannie]

I have a ruby that belonged to my mom that my dad bought her and he says it is Burmese. I have never sent it to AGL, so I don’t know much about it for sure, other than he bought it in Bangkok around 15 years ago and it cost quite a bit but not compared to today’s prices.
My local gemologist told me it is around 1 carat and believed it to be a real Burmese ruby. But I know to take his words with a grain of salt because it’s hard to know without lab testing.
It really glows in some lighting. The first three and last pic were taken indoors, so it doesn’t look as great.

 

[chrono]

Vivid medium toned pure red, doesn’t matter whether it is spinel or ruby, don’t care what country or region it is from. I prefer to buy based on colour, and not focus on origin.

 

[Starfacet]

Same like you, I was disappointed by my sub carat Mogok pigeon blood. It got darker after setting owing too The thick basket. So I've given up on these terms and just go for colour. Jets my current favourite red. An included Mogok red spinel.

ADORE this! Both the stone and setting!

 

[Starfacet]

I have a ruby that belonged to my mom that my dad bought her and he says it is Burmese. I have never sent it to AGL, so I don’t know much about it for sure, other than he bought it in Bangkok around 15 years ago and it cost quite a bit but not compared to today’s prices.
My local gemologist told me it is around 1 carat and believed it to be a real Burmese ruby. But I know to take his words with a grain of salt because it’s hard to know without lab testing.
It really glows in some lighting. The first three and last pic were taken indoors, so it doesn’t look as great.

@livannie, all of your halos are gorgeous! Is the lighter blue an aquamarine?

 

[livannie]

@livannie, all of your halos are gorgeous! Is the lighter blue an aquamarine?

Thank you! It is a blue zircon. I sold it long ago and wish I hadn’t.

 

[leukolenos]

Same like you, I was disappointed by my sub carat Mogok pigeon blood. It got darker after setting owing too The thick basket. So I've given up on these terms and just go for colour. Jets my current favourite red. An included Mogok red spinel.

I have a ruby that belonged to my mom that my dad bought her and he says it is Burmese. I have never sent it to AGL, so I don’t know much about it for sure, other than he bought it in Bangkok around 15 years ago and it cost quite a bit but not compared to today’s prices.
My local gemologist told me it is around 1 carat and believed it to be a real Burmese ruby. But I know to take his words with a grain of salt because it’s hard to know without lab testing.
It really glows in some lighting. The first three and last pic were taken indoors, so it doesn’t look as great.

You ladies both have STUNNING stones!!!

 

[GolfingGreen]

This great info... thank you everyone for sharing your thoughts and lovely photos! You are opening my eyes to the world of spinels. The Jedi and Namya spinels look great so I need to do more research on those... thanks for sharing!

I have a few more questions please... I know everyone says to focus on color and I agree. But what if you were a person like me who only wants to collect precious stones (e.g. Colombian emeralds, Ceylon sapphires, and Burmese rubies). I know... that seems wrong, but I seem to be hung up on this point and dismiss any other red gem... is that not the right thinking? My husband says to get a red spinel as he hates rubies. This is because of our bad experience with my last ruby. As FYI, it was a 2.01 certified pigeon-blood Burmese that we both hated once it was mounted. I never wore it and it was such a waste of money as we put it in a custom platinum setting.

With that bit of background... I feel spinel is a lesser stone in the pecking order of gemstones and not in the same league as a ruby. This is meant in no disrespect to all the spinel lovers. It's just me. Can you please help with me this thinking? Am I wrong?

Pricing... for a stone of 10mm X 8mm, what would the carat size and price be for a Burmese ruby, Mozambique ruby, and red spinel? The color would be pure red, stoplight red, fire-engine red... no drop of blue (e.g. no pink/purple). I have a Ceylon sapphire so I can sort of guess at the rubies... would that be a 4-5 carat ruby? What about a spinel given the specific gravity is lower? As FYI, my ugly, dark, pigeon-blood Burmese ruby was $10K back in 2008 (can you tell I hated that stone?!) so I am willing to go to $15K-$20K, but I don't want to go higher than that for just a gemstone. Do you have any insight to pricing? I've searhced on various websites (e.g. africagems.com) and pricing is all over the place.

I am no expert, just a newbie who would like to hear your thoughts and learn as much about these stones so I can make an educated decision (the comment about sunshine affecting color is great info!! I live in the U.S.)

Oh... I posted in an earlier thread a great new book on ruby/sapphire in case anyone is interested. I expect some of you already have this book: http://www.lotusgemology.com/index....ruby-sapphire-a-gemologist-s-guide-order-page

Thank you again for your help!

 

[Bron357]

My 10 x 8 ruby is 2.93 carats. So I think around 3 carats is a guide for a 10 x 8. And I will say you do need to be able to see the stone in person to decide. My ruby is actually a darkish red but photographs brighter. So you need a good return policy if the gem isn’t as pleasing in real life.
Also, if you are fixated on ruby (no offense intended here of course) it would be a mistake to buy a spinel. A spinel isn’t a ruby and every time you look at it you’ll go “it’s a spinel- sigh”. This will greatly dimmish your enjoyment and love of the gem/ring and you’ll be in the same place as you were with your earlier ruby ring purchase.
So you might just have to be patient and keep searching for the ruby that is right for you.

 

[Starfacet]

"I feel spinel is a lesser stone in the pecking order of gemstones and not in the same league as a ruby."
You do realize that there's a spinel in the Imperial State Crown of England, right?

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

Red spinels are more rare than rubies. Finding a very nice red spinel is not easy so if I had a healthy budget I would choose an unheated, eye clean ruby that is well cut and keeps it color. It would be more expensive but probably easier to find.

 

[GolfingGreen]

Thank you @Bron357 @Starfacet and @LisaRN for your thoughts!
Yes, I did know the Black Prince's Ruby is really a spinel, and yet they have not changed the name to recognize that poor spinel!

Your comments helped me decide...
@Bron357 You are right! I will always think "it's just a spinel" and feel like I convinced myself into buying something I did not want. That was great advice!
@LisaRN Knowing red spinels are harder to find also helped me in my decision!

I will stay with rubies and just be super careful about the color.
Thank you all very much for your help. I love PS and your honest opinions.

 

[chatoyancy]

I have a ruby that belonged to my mom that my dad bought her and he says it is Burmese. I have never sent it to AGL, so I don’t know much about it for sure, other than he bought it in Bangkok around 15 years ago and it cost quite a bit but not compared to today’s prices.
My local gemologist told me it is around 1 carat and believed it to be a real Burmese ruby. But I know to take his words with a grain of salt because it’s hard to know without lab testing.
It really glows in some lighting. The first three and last pic were taken indoors, so it doesn’t look as great.

Whatever it is, it’s beautiful. You’re other tings are too.

 

[ringo865]

That sapphire though.

 

[leukolenos]

Ruby measurements seem to vary rather widely so I’m not sure there’s a standard carat weight you could apply to those measurements. I would think 10x8mm would be larger than 3cts based on what I’ve seen, but it’s always possible.

I think you might need to revise your expectations for a stone of that color and that size. The only ones I’ve seen that meet all of those criteria were....shall we say....significantly more than your stated budget.

 

[Seaglow]

I think you should just go for color. Also, everyone on here warns about treatment in rubies (glass filling, diffusion, etc.). I would be so cautious.
Does anyone else on here cringe when they see or hear reference to pigeon’s blood or rabbit’s blood? I just think of bleeding pigeons and bunnies.

I agree. Unfortunately, down to wholesale, mining country and manufacturing country level, you might get stared at if you refer to colors as Pantone or even the GIA color grading system. The terms are so culturally ingrained that for many wholesalers and dealers to get the color you want, the terms would help. And for a 3.5 carats up fine ruby, likely you can get such is thru wholesalers, dealers, auction houses and branded stores who almost all use the terms.....not that I would like see what the color of the first drop of blood from a pigeon’s nose look like when you kill it...cringe-worthy indeed.

I have a few more questions please... I know everyone says to focus on color and I agree. But what if you were a person like me who only wants to collect precious stones (e.g. Colombian emeralds, Ceylon sapphires, and Burmese rubies). I know... that seems wrong, but I seem to be hung up on this point and dismiss any other red gem... is that not the right thinking? My husband says to get a red spinel as he hates rubies. This is because of our bad experience with my last ruby. As FYI, it was a 2.01 certified pigeon-blood Burmese that we both hated once it was mounted. I never wore it and it was such a waste of money as we put it in a custom platinum setting.

With that bit of background... I feel spinel is a lesser stone in the pecking order of gemstones and not in the same league as a ruby. This is meant in no disrespect to all the spinel lovers. It's just me. Can you please help with me this thinking? Am I wrong?

Pricing... for a stone of 10mm X 8mm, what would the carat size and price be for a Burmese ruby, Mozambique ruby, and red spinel? The color would be pure red, stoplight red, fire-engine red... no drop of blue (e.g. no pink/purple). I have a Ceylon sapphire so I can sort of guess at the rubies... would that be a 4-5 carat ruby? What about a spinel given the specific gravity is lower? As FYI, my ugly, dark, pigeon-blood Burmese ruby was $10K back in 2008 (can you tell I hated that stone?!) so I am willing to go to $15K-$20K, but I don't want to go higher than that for just a gemstone. Do you have any insight to pricing? I've searhced on various websites (e.g. africagems.com) and pricing is all over the place.

If you want a ruby, stick to it so you do not feel remorse after buying a spinel. If you want just the color with no reference to how transparent the stone is, you can go for heat treated stone, which can bring out color but make some stones less transparent. However, keep in mind that spinels are also in auction house catalogues like Christie’s together with jadeite, and have drastically increased in value with tsavorites, mainly because these stones are beautiful untreated.

10 x 8 I estimate to be around 3.5-4.5 carats, but at current prices no less than $100k for fine, eye clean, transparent stones, and I’m being conservative with the price. Rubies occur less in big stones of fine quality compared to sapphires. If the color is great, heat treatment, visible inclusions and less transparency will bring down the price, which will actually be overpowered by the fantastic color.

 

[qubitasaurus]

Why not reach out to ivy New York about their rubies

https://ivynewyork.com/collections/gemstones/products/ruby-no-heat-2-15-cts-2-pcs

The prices for the smaller ones are very reasonable. So getting some info on the bigger stones should give you a ball park figure. Afterwards Mayer and watt or wilds global minerals, or nomads might have some really high quality rubies for you to peruse. But I am guessing 20k may buy a 2 ct. stone from some of these vendors (wilds used to list its inventory and price on line).

There is a nice thread by Justin cutter discussing ruby prices and secondary colours. It is a few years old and prices will have risen since then but it is an excellent read. I will see if Ican find it for you.