Sapphire Help Please

[TurtleTurtle]

Yes, thanks to everyone here I think I chose a far better sapphire than I originally planned. I'm really happy with it. It was a little bit more than I had intended to spend, but its for a lifetime piece so I don't mind. I took a crappy phone video if anyone is interested. Everything in the video looks darker than in person. But it does kinda show the sparkly blues. Hopefully my girlfriend won't kill me over the price.

http://flic.kr/p/dPobyf

Edit* For Corundum. Yes, I noticed the green on the outside photo. It definitely does not show any green in person. I think the camera phone is wonky when it comes to color. I will try to take some more photos once I get home using a better camera with normal indoor lighting. I assume it will be a darker blue. I just received it at work today, so I had limited time.


Now the next hurdle is the setting. I think I found one that I want to go with. I know this is the wrong section for rings, but since I started my journey here, I hope you don't mind me finishing it here as well.


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8325/8409440045_137ced1c9d_o.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8366/8410535868_b0bff42e5b_o.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8363/8410535848_6a2d61369d_o.jpg

I contacted the vendor, and they are charging $2,200 for the setting in 14K, $2,950 18K, and $4,600 in platinum... Doesn't that seem high?
I also contacted some other jewelers if they could do a similar custom design in the time frame I need... But I might just go with the original designers in 18K.

 

[LD]

Overall it's very dark but has lovely flashes which really saves it! Although generally I don't like dark stones, I do appreciate them and this for me is a winner! Blue sapphires often shift a little bit to purple indoors - but this is their charm I think. It gives them a personality!

So, the big question ........... what do YOU think? Do you like it in all lighting conditions?

For goodness sake be careful taking photos outdoors - I lost a pink diamond pear to the wind once!!!!

 

[chrono]

Glad to read that the stone is lighter than what is shown in the video. As for the setting price? That is unbelievably expensive. This will be a hand carved piece, not cast, right? Perhaps that might account for the high price.

 

[corundum_conundrum]

I think you would want to let more light into the stone than this setting would allow. With this setting, I would fear that the dance of color and light that you've shown to good effect in your pictures would be muted by a setting that limits the amount of light that can enter the stone.

 

[chrono]

I think you would want to let more light into the stone than this setting would allow. With this setting, I would fear that the dance of color and light that you've shown to good effect in your pictures would be muted by a setting that limits the amount of light that can enter the stone.

Excellent point. The entire pavilion of the stone will be enclosed in that setting and most coloured stones, especially medium darks and darker need light coming in from as many angles as possible in order to flash beautifully. I know almost all precision lapidaries say precision cut stones are not affected by a very enclosed or bezel style setting but I would not risk it unless it is a light stone. If you cup your hand around the stone leaving only the top or crown area exposed, does it darken or is the fabulous brilliance unaffected?

 

[TurtleTurtle]

Hi guys. Sorry, the site keeps going down, so I wasn't able to post any photos last night from indoors using a standard camera.
I'll try to get it uploaded tonight.

The stone is much darker indoors under 65 watt incandescent lighting. Flashes of electric blue are still visible though. It's almost the same output as the video I posted earlier.

From what I read so far, I know the darker colors under dim lighting isn't ideal. But since I was actually leaning towards dark blue, I don't mind it at all. The flashes of bright colors really make it unique for me.

My mother has some old sapphire jewelry from local shops that I took a look at to compare. The stones are all very dark and flat. Almost looking into a very inky blue piece of glass. I've always assumed this is just the way sapphires look since most B&M's have the same kind of stones.

I am very happy with this stone, but my only concern would be if it is a good value at nearly 4K. Once it is made into an engagement ring it will be priceless to me. But objectively speaking I'm just curious.

As for the setting, I will address the pavilion issue with the designer. I do see there are some gaps to let light in, and the way the sapphire is cut makes it appear that even a smaller gap would be sufficient.

 

[LD]

Hi guys. Sorry, the site keeps going down, so I wasn't able to post any photos last night from indoors using a standard camera.
I'll try to get it uploaded tonight.

The stone is much darker indoors under 65 watt incandescent lighting. Flashes of electric blue are still visible though. It's almost the same output as the video I posted earlier.

From what I read so far, I know the darker colors under dim lighting isn't ideal. But since I was actually leaning towards dark blue, I don't mind it at all. The flashes of bright colors really make it unique for me.

My mother has some old sapphire jewelry from local shops that I took a look at to compare. The stones are all very dark and flat. Almost looking into a very inky blue piece of glass. I've always assumed this is just the way sapphires look since most B&M's have the same kind of stones.

I am very happy with this stone, but my only concern would be if it is a good value at nearly 4K. Once it is made into an engagement ring it will be priceless to me. But objectively speaking I'm just curious.

As for the setting, I will address the pavilion issue with the designer. I do see there are some gaps to let light in, and the way the sapphire is cut makes it appear that even a smaller gap would be sufficient.

I think I may have missed this! The stone is $4k? How big is it? When I read that I couldn't believe my eyes. It seems very very very expensive.

In terms of the setting you've chosen it would actually need a complete re-model. The only way to get a similar look is to have sweeping arms with no metal in between but this causes an issue for the basket under the stone. It's not insurmountable BUT if you take away the metal, which is essentially holding the stone in place, it will fall into the ring. I've marked with red arrows the bits that would have to be cut out. The prices you've been quoted are outrageous. May I suggest that you send that photo along with any amendments to Sally at HeartofWater on Etsy? She'll give you a price for all different metals and I doubt that her quote will be this high AND the finish will be better. The ring in the photo below looks very crudely made (although I like the design very much).

 

[TurtleTurtle]

Hi LD. Thanks for the assessment and opinion. These are the specs for the stone.

Sapphire Modified Mixed Cut Round
Weight: 1.88 cts
Measurements: 7.9mm, depth 4.4mm
Clarity: VVS
Origin: Sri Lanka
Enhancements: Heat only
Price: $ 3870.00
Description: Gorgeous. Huge beautiful blue sapphire, glowy royal blue, awesome!
AGL lab report included. Pantone 2728 & 2738C

As for the setting, there is an Etsy designer who gave me a much more reasonable estimate for a similar setting. I've already addressed the pavilion issue to him, and they claim they can make the modification needed. I haven't decided yet, so I will post more details regarding this once I have a better idea.

 

[LD]

Hi LD. Thanks for the assessment and opinion. These are the specs for the stone.

Sapphire Modified Mixed Cut Round
Weight: 1.88 cts
Measurements: 7.9mm, depth 4.4mm
Clarity: VVS
Origin: Sri Lanka
Enhancements: Heat only
Price: $ 3870.00
Description: Gorgeous. Huge beautiful blue sapphire, glowy royal blue, awesome!
AGL lab report included. Pantone 2728 & 2738C

As for the setting, there is an Etsy designer who gave me a much more reasonable estimate for a similar setting. I've already addressed the pavilion issue to him, and they claim they can make the modification needed. I haven't decided yet, so I will post more details regarding this once I have a better idea.

I'm stunned at the price of the sapphire AND it's heated. I must have missed that first time around. I apologise. I don't normally look at prices unless somebody says is this a good or bad price. Typically I just look at the stone to evaluate whether (for me) it's good/bad or ugly! I didn't even look at the price even though you have clearly posted it. What I'd want to know is why it's the same price as the UNHEATED bigger stone at 1.93ct? At the end of the day however, is this a price that you are comfortable with? I realise your search is time-limited so this may have to be the concession.

Please make sure you use an Etsy designer that others have used because this setting can look very clumsy if it's not executed well. I'd urge you to contact a few others (maybe some that are on the list in the sticky) and you can search this forum to see pieces crafted by them. Getting the cheapest price doesn't necessarily mean you will end up with a skilled handcrafted piece as I'm sure you know - it could look more home made than hand made I used an Etsy seller not so long ago for a fairly simple ring and when it arrived it was fit for the bin! Luckily it wasn't too expensive!

 

[TurtleTurtle]

Thanks again for the advice. The Etsy designer I am considering is:

http://www.etsy.com/people/luisfernando

Although he doesn't have any similar pieces in his portfolio, he does seem to do a lot of fine detail work. Also has over 100 positive reviews. I am wary though since I've never gone through this. I know if I go the retail route, I will have some more guarantees, but at 3-4x the cost, I don't know if that is worth it. Seems more overpriced than the sapphire.

I am at a point where time is getting to be more important than cost though. And I don't want to nickle and dime for the absolute lowest price. As long as I'm not getting fleeced, I feel fine.

 

[corundum_conundrum]

I'm stunned at the price of the sapphire AND it's heated. I must have missed that first time around. I apologise. I don't normally look at prices unless somebody says is this a good or bad price. Typically I just look at the stone to evaluate whether (for me) it's good/bad or ugly! I didn't even look at the price even though you have clearly posted it. What I'd want to know is why it's the same price as the UNHEATED bigger stone at 1.93ct? At the end of the day however, is this a price that you are comfortable with? I realise your search is time-limited so this may have to be the concession.

I think Justin Cutter commented a few months ago that he noticed even since he bought his sapphire (2 years ago?) that the price disparity between heated and unheated sapphires was being erased. Interesting.

OP's stone has a very large face-up for its weight, so I don't think he's being fleeced given the popularity of sapphires today. But its no bargain.

 

[LD]

I'm stunned at the price of the sapphire AND it's heated. I must have missed that first time around. I apologise. I don't normally look at prices unless somebody says is this a good or bad price. Typically I just look at the stone to evaluate whether (for me) it's good/bad or ugly! I didn't even look at the price even though you have clearly posted it. What I'd want to know is why it's the same price as the UNHEATED bigger stone at 1.93ct? At the end of the day however, is this a price that you are comfortable with? I realise your search is time-limited so this may have to be the concession.

I think Justin Cutter commented a few months ago that he noticed even since he bought his sapphire (2 years ago?) that the price disparity between heated and unheated sapphires was being erased. Interesting.

OP's stone has a very large face-up for its weight, so I don't think he's being fleeced given the popularity of sapphires today. But its no bargain.

Fleeced is a harsh word. I beg to differ about unheated and heated sapphires ESPECIALLY as the colour of this one is not top colour (nice though it is). Nobody pays for face up weight. Sorry but I think this stone is expensive for the colour. Having said that, it's not my money but I don't like to see people paying more than necessary.

For comparison here's a heated of almost the same size:

http://mastercutgems.com/index.php?page=viewgem&id=6594

At $3000 less I would be remiss if I didn't point out my concerns.

Here's another, again heated but 2ct more - still less in price:

http://mastercutgems.com/index.php?page=viewgem&id=6591

And another, this time a tad smaller but UNHEATED and this was is $3,500 less!

http://mastercutgems.com/index.php?page=viewgem&id=6682

Don't know the price of this one but I'd take it in a heartbeat:

http://www.whitesgems.com/gallery/SAP010.htm

Heated but an oval - half the price:

http://www.ajsgem.com/sapphire/blue-sapphire/blue-sapphire-1.52-carats.html-1

Turtle Turtle - please ignore this post if you're happy with your sapphire. I can only speak for myself but even if I love, if I feel I've overpaid, I resent it over time and fall out of love with it. I know that's irrational but the fact that you're questioning the cost made me wonder if you feel the same. If you don't and as you say money isn't your biggest concern at the moment, then please don't worry. You have to be comfortable with your purchase.

 

[corundum_conundrum]

Fair enough LD. Maybe I spoke too quickly about heated and unheated--I had just heard other PSers comments to this effect. FWIW I agree that the price is expensive--I think our disagreement lies in just HOW expensive it is. I think its a premium internet price for a precision cut stone. Still less than retail. As evidence, see NSC prices.

Re: Dana

I think its hard to compete with his prices. His represents bargain internet prices. And two of the stones you posted of his had eye visible inclusions.

Re: AJS

Thai prices are not US prices. I would expect to get a bargain buying a native cut stone from Thailand.

Finally, I do think that all else equal a stone with a larger face-up size commands a higher price than a smaller one.

 

[LD]

Fair enough LD. Maybe I spoke too quickly about heated and unheated--I had just heard other PSers comments to this effect. FWIW I agree that the price is expensive--I think our disagreement lies in just HOW expensive it is. I think its a premium internet price for a precision cut stone. Still less than retail. As evidence, see NSC prices.

Re: Dana

I think its hard to compete with his prices. His represents bargain internet prices. And two of the stones you posted of his had eye visible inclusions.

Re: AJS

Thai prices are not US prices. I would expect to get a bargain buying a native cut stone from Thailand.

Finally, I do think that all else equal a stone with a larger face-up size commands a higher price than a smaller one.

Sorry I really don't understand your comment about internet prices? That doesn't make sense. I buy all my stones from the internet from across the world. I understand pricing and know when something is expensive and when it's not. At the end of the day I don't care where the stone is so long as I pay a fair price - if it's in Thailand, China, Australia or the US Sapphire prices are Sapphire prices. I would rather pay for a beautiful native cut stone from Thailand than a second rate stone from the US. Turtle Turtle I'm not referring to your stones here.

Neither does it make sense to say that AJS stones are native cut from Thailand. I'm not sure how they would feel about that but as somebody who has bought from them I can categorically say it's not true as they have a mixture of excellent precision cut, very well cut stones and some less well cut - which is the same for just about every gemstone dealer that doesn't specialise in precision cutting.

Nobody and I mean nobody should EVER compare prices to those of NSC. They are very expensive for not great stones and dreadful shoddy, shady practices. Using them as comparitors is really unwise.

At the end of the day I took 10 minutes to do a quick search for round sapphires. Within a few minutes I'd found comparisons. I discounted quite a few also because they were lighter than Turtle Turtle wanted. If I can do that in 10 minutes, a few days of shopping around will provide more comparitors.

At the end of the day this is up to Turtle Turtle and I was just trying to help based on a comment made.

 

[distracts]

I like that Gemfix sapphire. It's okay that your shots come out superdark in direct sunlight - 99.9% of mine do too even though my sapphire is a glowing ball of cobalt blue in direct sunlight (I have a grand total of ONE picture that comes even close to showing what it looks like in direct sunlight!). I think that sapphire looks like a nice color and good size. And since it's round it'll be really easy to find settings for it. I think she'll love it.

Are you 100% sure that's the kind of setting she likes? I like it but I'm not sure I would for an engagement ring (a lot of people want to go more classic). But if you are, I think it's lovely and unique. I agree that the prices are high, though if you love that specific one best it could be worth it.

Although he doesn't have any similar pieces in his portfolio, he does seem to do a lot of fine detail work. Also has over 100 positive reviews. I am wary though since I've never gone through this. I know if I go the retail route, I will have some more guarantees, but at 3-4x the cost, I don't know if that is worth it.

RED FLAG. I never get custom work done by someone if I haven't seen them do something similar before. It's a really quick way to end up with something that is not what you want. (Although they do have this ring that I'd consider similar, so I actually don't think that applies to this vendor if you like this ring.)

I lost a pink diamond pear to the wind once!!!!

Oh LD, say it isn't so!

 

[LD]

Although he doesn't have any similar pieces in his portfolio, he does seem to do a lot of fine detail work. Also has over 100 positive reviews. I am wary though since I've never gone through this. I know if I go the retail route, I will have some more guarantees, but at 3-4x the cost, I don't know if that is worth it.

RED FLAG. I never get custom work done by someone if I haven't seen them do something similar before. It's a really quick way to end up with something that is not what you want. (Although they do have this ring that I'd consider similar, so I actually don't think that applies to this vendor if you like this ring.)

I lost a pink diamond pear to the wind once!!!!

Oh LD, say it isn't so!

Distracts - completely agree with your red flag comment.

Pink Diamond? Unfortunately yes! The interesting thing is that I found him quite by chance after the wind had whisked him awAY BUT then put him somewhere safe and have never been able to find him again! Clearly it's a stone that doesn't want to be owned so I'm hoping he's happy wherever he is! From time to time I go on the hunt but have never found him!

 

[chrono]

I agree wholeheartedly with Distract's caution on the jeweller to make the setting. It usually won't turn out well and you'll end up remaking the ring elsewhere, costing you more time and money.

 

[LD]

Just found this ........... already set in a ring but ............ you'd get the stone and ring for less than just the stone you were looking at. The lady who crafts these rings is called Jill and she works very closely with John at Simply Sapphires. She may also have other things for you to look at.

http://www.colorsymphony.com/sapphire/blue/rings/elegant-ceylon-sapphire-h-pave-diamond-ring-14kwg-2.18-ctw

 

[corundum_conundrum]

I used the word "fleeced" because that was what OP was trying to avoid. I want to express that, in my opinion, you are not getting fleeced O.P. The price you are paying is still less than you would pay at most retail stores, although it is on the high side of prices you would see from PS recommended vendors. Just my $0.02.



I don't want to thread-jack, but LD you claimed that something I was saying didn't make sense to you so I thought I would try to state it a bit better. You said the idea of "Internet" prices didn't make any sense. What I'm getting at is I think we have to compare prices both relative to all possible prices (as you emphasized) and also relative to similar vendors.

For example, thai gem dealers have less overhead and fewer hands on their gems than European or North American. vendors. So there prices are better. Buying form them adds elements of risk that are not present when buying from someone in, say, the U.S. or U.K. This means they HAVE to charge less to be competitive.

In other words, I wouldn't take it as a sign that I was being grossly overcharged at my local jewelry store because Tan had a similar stone for a 1/3 of the price. I think that would be unfair to hold a local jewelry store to that standard. In my opinion, they might still have a fair price (less than most B&M jewelery stores, and on par with some expensive Internet dealers). I just think we need to assess prices not just absolutely but relative to similar vendors.


By the way, I enjoy arguing L.D., and I take it that you do too. You're good at it, so thanks for sparring with me LD!

 

[minousbijoux]

For example, thai gem dealers have less overhead and fewer hands on their gems than European or North American. vendors. So there prices are better. Buying form them adds elements of risk that are not present when buying from someone in, say, the U.S. or U.K. This means they HAVE to charge less to be competitive.

I think its just your writing style. You sometimes state your observations as sweeping statements. While from your experience, they may be true, you write them as if they're a factual reality. Not all Thai dealers are the same or adhere to the same business model and there are some Thai-based dealers that charge more for stones than some of the domestic cutters do.

Offering up a statement from one PS member (not a trade member, mind you, just a guy that bought his now wife a sapphire) as indication of a decreasing price delta between heated and unheated sapphires is another example of such statements.

One of the things that I sometimes forget is that there are long time members who are here to help and post frequently on this forum. They care about educating others. I know LD and know that she does not like to argue for the sake of arguing, but simply tries to set the record straight so that others, particularly newcomers, don't take what they've read as fact and become misinformed. You have offered several, shall we say, "learning opportunities" where she may have felt obligated to step in and explain in order for people not to be confused by your statements. Just my two cents, in case it helps.

 

[corundum_conundrum]

OK minou. I do like arguing, so I will try to be more sensitive that others might not be interested in it. I also don't like arguing for argument's sake, but I enjoy arguing a point when I think its correct. Like LD, I am trying to represent the truth as I see it, but with far far less experience in gemstones. I am not at all offended that LD has taken issue with statements I have made. But I do not just defer to experience if I don't think a compelling case has been made.

I am a big believer in the idea that if various peoples' views are represented, the cream will rise to the top. I don't mind if my view point is shown to be incorrect. I immediately conceded to LD that my musings about price disparities between heated and unheated could be ill-founded. But I still think that I have different way to evaluate price in this case that I'm not sure LD has compellingly disputed and so deserves to be represented.

I do think generalizations are helpful. There are certainly exceptions to generalizations, and many times I take it that everyone is aware of those exceptions without me having to state them. But if I had said thai dealers "tend" to have less overhead and more modest prices, maybe this would be clearer. I can be clearer about this if it is confusing going forward.

And I am very surprised you found this to be an example of me making a sweeping statement of fact:

I think Justin Cutter commented a few months ago that he noticed even since he bought his sapphire (2 years ago?) that the price disparity between heated and unheated sapphires was being erased. Interesting.

 

[minousbijoux]

CC: thanks. I realized after I wrote that it implied that the ones who've been around for a while, like LD, are the only ones who care about explaining things to newcomers. After I wrote it, I realized that you too, are trying to be helpful by creating rules of thumb, etc. So I'm sorry as I did not recognize that and I appreciate that you did not take offense!

As to the Justin comment, it just seemed far fetched to me that he would make that statement, as I don't believe its correct...

 

[corundum_conundrum]

No offense taken, Minou! I am glad to have tried to offer help and represent a viewpoint (and even if most of what I have to offer is an opportunity for someone like LD to step-in and clarify, I think that is still useful).

It was just a passing remark Justin he made about less of a chasm between heated and unheated stones. I never meant my mention of it to be a statement of the reality of current prices, which I why I stated it as something someone once mentioned that I found interesting, and could have baring on gemfix prices. Maybe he can chime-in if he stumbles upon this, or if I can dig-up that comment...

 

[LD]

CC - I actually don't like arguing and this is stressing me out. I don't want this thread to be about what I say or you say. It's not fair to the OP but if you're going to give advice please make sure it's correct. I take issue that we should compare retail to internet pricing. I'm not sure any of the seasoned contributors to this forum have bought retail for years (ie walked into a jewellery shop and bought a coloured stone). Why? Because quite frankly it's a rip off. We don't need to because we know where to look and that's why we enjoy helping others.

In terms of what Justin did or didn't find I suggest you do some research and stop repeating what others have said as if it were fact. Justin did a phenomenal job of finding his stone and getting his gorgeous ring BUT what you've overlooked is that he was aiming at top colour. That means that on the whole the price per carat will be higher. So, it is quite possible that he saw a number of top colour heated sapphires that outstripped a lesser colour but same carat weight or unheated stone. Pricing is usually dictated by colour and then by treatment or lack of.

I applaud you for learning and taking the time to do so but you keep presenting your opinion as fact when I have to say that sometimes it's flawed or basically incorrect i.e. you told somebody that their coloured stone had a fish eye and you stated that as fact. I don't intend to respond to you in this thread any more because it really isn't fair to the OP who, after all, just wants to buy a sapphire, quickly!

 

[corundum_conundrum]

Okay. Sorry to stress anyone out. You won't get any more disagreements from me LD. I take issue with some things you have imputed to me, and believe some things have been misread without any charity. I am quick to concede that I am wrong if I have misstated something. I appreciate everyone's help on this board and apologize for any errors or any lack of sensitivy. Good luck OP, sorry for the tangent.

 

[VapidLapid]

While the disparity between unheated and heated may not be closing, prices are going up crazy. It might be more noticable in the heateds because they were so low, so a $500 increase might be 50 %, where in an unheated a $500 increase is less than the markup prior to a sale.

 

[chrono]

I agree that pricing of sapphires, in particular both heated and unheated, have gone up significantly due to the British Royal wedding. In some cases, price per carat has doubled. There is also a slight premium for rounds and precision cutting.

 

[minousbijoux]

In case I wasn't clear earlier, I to have seen immense price increases in both heated and unheated sapphires in the last few years.

 

[TurtleTurtle]

Sorry for the long delay. I've been so busy lately. I just wanted to provide a quick update to all of those who've helped me.

I went with Fernando Jewelry http://www.etsy.com/shop/FernandoJewelry for the setting. Luis Fernando is very professional, quick, and reasonably priced. I'd recommend him to anyone wanting to get custom work done. Plus if you're in the NYC area, he is easily accessible in the diamond district. He provided me a silver mold in one week from some photos I gave him. And another week for the final platinum setting.

My fiance loved the final piece, and now we are getting married! Thanks for all the help and advice!


1.88ct Sapphire (GEMFIX) Custom platinum setting (Fernando Jewelry)

 

[Vidalia]

Congratulations on your engagement, TurtleTurtle, and thank you for posting the photos. It was fun to observe the process of creating your fiance's ring.