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Ok so Ive been trying to create a new name to say all this anon. but I cant seem to figure it out. I think what I have to say *might* help you. When I was younger, my father was "inappropriate" with me ( I think I dont need to go into details right?), for many years, I saw this as "normal" because it was for me and I never spoke to anyone about it so how would I know? I am only ok because of years of therapy, and a wonderful husband. My husband never presses me to talk about the past and he only listens if by some chance I do want to talk about it, he never offers advice, just listens. This is the best thing he could do for me. Its extremely painful to think about those times in my life, and while I *know* my dh doesnt judge me, I still secretly judge myself. I know I always will. By the sound of the behavior of your FMIL, I would say that something almost certainly *happened*, but I would wait til your FI wants to bring up the subject. As for being worried about your future kids, you have every right to, and Id keep them the F away from her. BUT, as for your FI, I would say to watch him closely around kids. Does anything look or *feel* wrong to you? I know alot of peope on here were worried about him being that way with you future children, and as a person who is a product of this, I will tell you that Id rather stick a fork in my own eye than touch a child. I do know that statistically speraking, people that were molested *typically* do end up repeating the cycle, but not all of us. Please encourage him to get counseling on his own, this should help. And go through as many therapists as it takes til he finds someone he is comfortable with. Also, he needs to get out of that house ASAP. Being subjected to her behavior further is not helping. FRENCH FRIES AND HAMBURGER- I wish you both the very best and I must say I commend you on trying to help your FI''s in this situation. Be there for them, love them and listen if they need to vent . All my best, I wish you both the best of luck with this difficult situation.
 
Ewwww.....thats weird.

I will not let her babysit your future boys alone. Do you have an alternative babysitter for your future babies?

She hates girls? Yikes!!!
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Date: 10/27/2009 12:38:03 PM
Author: decodelighted
Date: 10/27/2009 12:33:00 PM

Author: TravelingGal

OK, not to make light of this thread, but I laughed out loud when I saw that ''hamburger'' had logged on to commiserate with ''french fries.''
Click to expand...

''onion rings''? ''hot dog''? we know you''re out there ... don''t be shy ...
5.gif
Click to expand...

I was waiting for ketchup
9.gif


Silliness aside...this thread freaks me out, and I think you really need to talk to your FI seriously about this. Does he even seem bothered by what his mom is doing, or does he just go along with it?
 
If I was in this situation (and I am to a lesser degree -- long story), I would move away from these women and end all contact. (and I did)

It is a bad situation. It won''t get better. (look at the family tradition in Hamburger''s case)
If you have kids, how do you explain that it is okay to be with grandma when other people are around but NEVER alone? How do you explain to them that grandma lives down the street but they aren''t allowed to spend the night with her (at the age when all the other kids get to)?


This whole thing bothered me so much last night that I talked to B about it. He says to end the relationship. Get out of it and never look back. If your FI can''t see that this is not normal or right, then you are in a situation where this behavior will continue with your own kids (either by him or FMIL).
B says that even IF your FI knows it is wrong, you should still get away from him. I guess it is common for the abused to become an abuser. (he said they go one of two ways. The first is to reject the whole thing and not do that kind of thing. The other is to become the abuser and be in control of the situation.)

I don''t entirely agree with him. If your FI thinks it is okay, then forget him and move on. If he knows it is wrong and wants away from it then a good psychologist would probably be the way to go.


Either way:
GET AWAY FROM THESE SICK WOMEN

Help the neighbor kids & younger siblings if you can. But get away. Don''t look back. You and FI and future kids deserve to have a safe & happy life. These women are NOT safe.
 
Date: 10/27/2009 1:51:38 PM
Author: MonkeyPie


Date: 10/27/2009 12:38:03 PM
Author: decodelighted


Date: 10/27/2009 12:33:00 PM

Author: TravelingGal

OK, not to make light of this thread, but I laughed out loud when I saw that 'hamburger' had logged on to commiserate with 'french fries.'
Click to expand...

'onion rings'? 'hot dog'? we know you're out there ... don't be shy ...
5.gif
Click to expand...

I was waiting for ketchup
9.gif


Silliness aside...this thread freaks me out, and I think you really need to talk to your FI seriously about this. Does he even seem bothered by what his mom is doing, or does he just go along with it?
Click to expand...
Ah, you beat me to it. Hamburger and French fries, I'm sending you all my good vibe ketchup and mustard.

What do your FI's fathers feel about this behavior? Any chance you all can stage an intervention with a therapist and get them some serious help? Maybe if their own children tell them how wrong it is, they'll be willing to get help.
 
Just an FYI as a friendly reminder: some of you when posting anonymously mispell words in a very unique way that might identify you and some of the more sharper members may pick up on that. Just be aware because I know this is a very sensitive subject for you. Sorry for what you are going through.
 
Date: 10/27/2009 3:56:19 PM
Author: FriendlyAdvice
Just an FYI as a friendly reminder: some of you when posting anonymously mispell words in a very unique way that might identify you and some of the more sharper members may pick up on that. Just be aware because I know this is a very sensitive subject for you. Sorry for what you are going through.
Click to expand...

As do you. There is NO NEED to say things like this - both hamburger and frenchfries came here for emotional support and assistance, not so that people can try to assume who they are. Remember what the word "assume" also does.
 
FrenchFries and Hamburger...

I don''t have anything new to add to the group...I think everyone has pretty much hit on anything I was going to contribute, but I did want to offer (((HUGS))) to both of you, as well as TooPatient, loriken, Amzizzle, and sctsbride.

No one should have to experience abuse like that, and I hope you all find peace with your situations.
 
Date: 10/27/2009 1:09:02 PM
Author: sctsbride09
Ok so Ive been trying to create a new name to say all this anon. but I cant seem to figure it out. I think what I have to say *might* help you. When I was younger, my father was ''inappropriate'' with me ( I think I dont need to go into details right?), for many years, I saw this as ''normal'' because it was for me and I never spoke to anyone about it so how would I know? I am only ok because of years of therapy, and a wonderful husband. My husband never presses me to talk about the past and he only listens if by some chance I do want to talk about it, he never offers advice, just listens. This is the best thing he could do for me. Its extremely painful to think about those times in my life, and while I *know* my dh doesnt judge me, I still secretly judge myself. I know I always will. By the sound of the behavior of your FMIL, I would say that something almost certainly *happened*, but I would wait til your FI wants to bring up the subject. As for being worried about your future kids, you have every right to, and Id keep them the F away from her. BUT, as for your FI, I would say to watch him closely around kids. Does anything look or *feel* wrong to you? I know alot of peope on here were worried about him being that way with you future children, and as a person who is a product of this, I will tell you that Id rather stick a fork in my own eye than touch a child. I do know that statistically speraking, people that were molested *typically* do end up repeating the cycle, but not all of us. Please encourage him to get counseling on his own, this should help. And go through as many therapists as it takes til he finds someone he is comfortable with. Also, he needs to get out of that house ASAP. Being subjected to her behavior further is not helping. FRENCH FRIES AND HAMBURGER- I wish you both the very best and I must say I commend you on trying to help your FI''s in this situation. Be there for them, love them and listen if they need to vent . All my best, I wish you both the best of luck with this difficult situation.
Click to expand...

You are amazing to talk about this and want to help others by talking about your own experiences. I''m so glad you were able to work past things and have a supportive DH.
 
When a parent uses their children to fulfill their adult emotional needs that should be fulfilled by their spouse, it is called covert or emotional incest.

There is a little bit of reading on the internet. It is better described by a therapist.


These are some pretty extreme cases. This might be something else entirely...but it all sounded pretty familiar to some things I''ve heard before.
 
Date: 10/27/2009 6:25:30 PM
Author: House Cat
When a parent uses their children to fulfill their adult emotional needs that should be fulfilled by their spouse, it is called covert or emotional incest.


There is a little bit of reading on the internet. It is better described by a therapist.



These are some pretty extreme cases. This might be something else entirely...but it all sounded pretty familiar to some things I''ve heard before.
Click to expand...

Great posting and sage advice...
 
I''m inclined to agree with the guy that said run. There are hundreds of thousands of men in the world. Why saddle yourself with the worry, the doubt, the potential for danger? This just doesn''t bode well for a happy future IMO.
 
Date: 10/27/2009 1:53:50 PM
Author: TooPatient
If I was in this situation (and I am to a lesser degree -- long story), I would move away from these women and end all contact. (and I did)

It is a bad situation. It won't get better. (look at the family tradition in Hamburger's case)
If you have kids, how do you explain that it is okay to be with grandma when other people are around but NEVER alone? How do you explain to them that grandma lives down the street but they aren't allowed to spend the night with her (at the age when all the other kids get to)?


This whole thing bothered me so much last night that I talked to B about it. He says to end the relationship. Get out of it and never look back. If your FI can't see that this is not normal or right, then you are in a situation where this behavior will continue with your own kids (either by him or FMIL).
B says that even IF your FI knows it is wrong, you should still get away from him. I guess it is common for the abused to become an abuser. (he said they go one of two ways. The first is to reject the whole thing and not do that kind of thing. The other is to become the abuser and be in control of the situation.)

I don't entirely agree with him. If your FI thinks it is okay, then forget him and move on. If he knows it is wrong and wants away from it then a good psychologist would probably be the way to go.


Either way:
GET AWAY FROM THESE SICK WOMEN

Help the neighbor kids & younger siblings if you can. But get away. Don't look back. You and FI and future kids deserve to have a safe & happy life. These women are NOT safe.
Click to expand...
Patient: I understand your SO saying that. But my fiance and I have been together for a very long time (years and years). He really is like another part of me and I love him more than anything (in a non-psycho way). We have discussed his mother (and grandmother's) behavior and from the very beginning, he has been disgusted by it and knows how wrong it is. He just realizes that there isn't much he can do about it. Not that he hasn't made the effort to talk to his mother about it, but it's like talking to a brick wall.

Luckily, FI's father is close to him and very normal. His mother and father are divorced and that meant that he was able to distinguish the "dangerous, not normal" stuff from "random parent quirks" early on. In my situation, I see most of my FMIL's behavior as a way to control. some of it is definitely could be sexual abuse, but not because she wants to be sexual. It's more that she wants control over my fiance's sexual life. Does that make any sense? Fiance and his grandmother hardly ever talk to each other. He see's her once a year or so and they live only 20 minutes away. I'm not worried about her influence. And I doubt our children will ever stay with his mom and step father. They don't like having kids over their house (besides their own). No one else is "well behaved" enough for them to watch them. They aren't "that kind" of grandparent. The nurturing, wants to bake cookies and go shopping with their grandchildren type. that's not them.

And I'm not worried about my fiance abusing our kids. If I was, I obviously wouldn't be marrying him.

And friendly: if you are talking to me, I tried to watch out for that when posting. But i didn't make a false name to keep me "safe" from other ps'rs. Just from my FMIL. I have posted a photo or two on ps and I think one of my Fiance's face at one point. I don't want her to be able to trace this to me. Thanks for the heads up though.

Sctsbride: I'm so sorry to hear about your situation. Your husband sounds wonderful and I'm so glad you were able to find someone so supportive. One of my friends was abused by her father and still hasn't been able to tell her fiance about it yet.
8.gif


House cat: Thank you for the information. I'll google these and see what I can find out.

purrfect: in my opinion, yes there may be hundreds of thousands of men in the world. Each has their own problems. Some drink, some beat their wives, some have bad manners, some smell. Whatever. My fiance's problem is is crazy mother. And he knows that. And it's not his fault. My fiance is a wonderful man. He's caring, sweet, honest, respectful, considerate, he and I have the same values and beliefs. etc. and of course he has some of his own things that he does that bugs me (leaving dishes in the sink is one example) but If the only truly terrible thing about him is that his mother is off her rocker, I think I'm in pretty good shape.

To everyone, thank you so much for your concern, advice and hugs.

French: I'm sorry if it seems like I'm thread jacking. My original reason for posting was to let you know that you are not alone in this situation. >
by the way: What kind of parents would allow their children to have individual sleepovers with a woman who has grown children (and presumably none of them are her children's ages)? I don't know why I just thought of that.
 
I keep saying that I will write a *real* post, but my work hours are killing me. Hopefully tomorrow. I just want to say again, thanks for the support. I think counseling is a great solution. I have spoken with my fiance at great length about this, pretty convinced that it did not happen to him. He and his brother were treated very differently-my fiance is the older son. Fiance''s parents have always tried to push the boys apart. They tell the younger son that his job is not good enough, he is not smart enough, he doesn''t make enough money, but to look at fiance because he is doing so well.

As far as leaving him, I don''t think that is fair. These boys have been abused by their mother...they don''t need the NORMAL women who love them running in the other direction.
 
frenchfries and hamburger -

My ILs were emotionally and financially abusive to their children. I know how difficult it is for children of abusive parents to walk away sometimes, but they need to. They need to remove themselves from any and all situation where the abuse might continue... And if that means not seeing them again, then so be it. When DH and I were engaged, my MIL went completely berserk and she was so horrible I honestly considered breaking things off. It may sound harsh, but there was no way I was going to live like this, with a crazy MIL who was trying to control our life. So I sat down with then-FI and we talked about it. He said his future with me was more important than his relationship with his mother, so he stood up to her and basically told her to f*ck off. She went hysterical, but he stood his ground. Breaking the cycle was difficult, but he did it. Now, we're looking to buy a house and we decided to put some physical distance between us and them as well as the emotional distance... Especially with the baby coming.

So, basically I strongly believe your FIs need to tell their moms to "f*ck off", get away from them and break the cycle. I would also suggest counselling and discussing parenting to set common and "normal" boundaries for what will be acceptable or not in your relationships and with your future children (in my case, I had to make sure then-FI knew that slapping a kid in the back of the head and calling him names was NOT normal...). Lastly, I strongly recommend doing all this before you get married.

I'm really sorry you and your FIs are going through this. Best of luck to you.
 
I just wanted to add that I don''t think TooPatient was telling you to end your relationships... By "get away from these women", she didn''t mean just you, but you and your FIs. And I wholeheartedly agree. Just talking to those mothers probably won''t work... So just get the heck away from them.
 
Erased my own post for a shorter more simple version.

My MIL was a controlling mother with the use of money. She offered to buy everything for him. She and his dad would also call and yell at him for the dumbest sh!t you can ever imagine. Shockingly it took me to make him realize that the money they so generously offered him was allowing them to feel like they could still control him like a child. Surprise surprise, he stopped taking their money and they stopped yelling. They now have a healthy adult relationship.

If your SO's demand that their mom treat them like an adult, then she will be forced to. You SO's are enablers. No one has bothered to say, "No, Mom, I don't want to lay my head in your lap." She is trying to keep them like children. She is ill, but this has been going on so long, it is no longer her fault that it is continuing. Your SO's are adults and should know what is right and wrong (as opposed to when they were children and father wasn't always around.) She is sick and no one wants to tell her to stop.

That is the job of your SO. Tell each of them to grow up, confront their mother... or this WILL carry over to your kids.
 
FF and Hamburger-
First, I''m so sorry that you have to deal with this. (((((HUGS)))))

Second, something my priest has said to my husband and i constantly is to remember that when getting married, you are getting a new family. you are not only creating a family with one another, but you are gaining his family as your own. the faults his family (and your own) may bring to the table need to be faced head-on, as a team. it will only gain you respect in the end if you are both able to tackle these problems together, and will only bring you closer as a couple.

Hamburger- you said that you know this due to control. that was the first thing that went through my mind- obviously the boxers are for her to "take care of" and control her son. however, by allowing the relationship to continue as is, he is allowing her to have that control. luckily, he recognizes it. but the ball is in his court now that he recognizes it. either he gives her the opportunity to correct the behavior (by means of counseling, whatever) or he ends the relationship, because it clearly is not healthy for him.

FF- same thing- he is letting her have that control. there is nothing you can do about the past, but your FI needs to recognize that this behavior she exibits is not normal, not right, and something needs to be done about it. if she doesn''t change, then he needs to end it.

just like drug addiction- this is a mental illness. she is sick (and i don''t mean in a "eewww...gross" kind of way. i mean sick as in ill). she probably doesn''t know her behavior is wrong, and just like an addict bucks against people telling them to stop, she will probably do the same. but by allowing this to keep on going, it is enabling her to have that control, and ultimately it will cause problems in your relationship.

Keep your head up, stay strong, and of course support your FI''s.
 
Oddoneout- thank you, I am very lucky to have my dh.

Hamburger- Im sorry to hear about your friend. Hopefully someday she will find peace with her situation, whether or not she decides to be open with her FI on the matter. PLease let her know that she is not alone.
 
Date: 10/28/2009 9:42:42 AM
Author: anchor31
I just wanted to add that I don''t think TooPatient was telling you to end your relationships... By ''get away from these women'', she didn''t mean just you, but you and your FIs. And I wholeheartedly agree. Just talking to those mothers probably won''t work... So just get the heck away from them.
Click to expand...

Sorry if I was unclear. You and your FI should get away from them. Start your own family and be happy.

You shouldn''t have to live in constant fear that someone is going to hurt your kids.



Only if he likes the behavior or sees it as normal and isn''t willing to see it change would I suggest just leaving him.
 
Frenchfries...is there any possible chance it might be a cultural thing?

Maybe he had some kind of a problem that kept him from taking care of himself in the bathroom? My parents friends have a son that is about 6 and wears diapers. He is perfectly intelligent, plays well with children and adults, has no physical difficulties whatsoever...he just hasn''t been cooperative when it comes to potty training. I want to try to give her the benefit of the doubt. In some cultures, parents often continue to sleep with their kids until their early teens. Its a combination of 1) not having the money to afford multiple beds or rooms 2) safety 3)superstition.

Wiping is definitely strange, just as the neighbors spending the night is strange. I just want to see if there might be a mistake or mis-communication before you contact an agency.
 
hugs to both french fries and hamburger (i can''t read this thread when hungry)
i hope both of you are able to spend as little time as possible around your FMILs until hopefully they become less crazy.

for lack of a better description
buckets of healing-creepy-FMIL-dust to both
 
Date: 10/28/2009 10:08:21 AM
Author: meresal
Erased my own post for a shorter more simple version.

My MIL was a controlling mother with the use of money. She offered to buy everything for him. She and his dad would also call and yell at him for the dumbest sh!t you can ever imagine. Shockingly it took me to make him realize that the money they so generously offered him was allowing them to feel like they could still control him like a child. Surprise surprise, he stopped taking their money and they stopped yelling. They now have a healthy adult relationship.

If your SO''s demand that their mom treat them like an adult, then she will be forced to. You SO''s are enablers. No one has bothered to say, ''No, Mom, I don''t want to lay my head in your lap.'' She is trying to keep them like children. She is ill, but this has been going on so long, it is no longer her fault that it is continuing. Your SO''s are adults and should know what is right and wrong (as opposed to when they were children and father wasn''t always around.) She is sick and no one wants to tell her to stop.

That is the job of your SO. Tell each of them to grow up, confront their mother... or this WILL carry over to your kids.
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I agree with mereal...
and I did have a question... is the youngest son... disabled? or have special needs where the whiping may have been a necessity?
 
mini-update.
Looks like his "talk" with his mother that he had awhile ago worked. Another birthday has come and gone but this time... NO boxers! For the first time in the past few years, she just bought him a shirt and a tie! I can hear the hallelujah chorus!

Maybe she''s actually starting to realize that she can''t expect to have control anymore... gosh I hope this lasts.
 
Date: 10/29/2009 11:53:01 PM
Author: hamburger
mini-update.

Looks like his ''talk'' with his mother that he had awhile ago worked. Another birthday has come and gone but this time... NO boxers! For the first time in the past few years, she just bought him a shirt and a tie! I can hear the hallelujah chorus!


Maybe she''s actually starting to realize that she can''t expect to have control anymore... gosh I hope this lasts.
Click to expand...

This is very good to hear.
 
hamburger - good to hear! I almost wonder if that part may not have been a "mommy''s little boy" type of deal.
 
Typing this on my bb so I apologize in advance for spelling or grammatical errors.

So the first thing-the younger brother is a healthy man. I don''t even think he was born with so much as a birthmark. He is smart, great at sports, can without question wipe.

As far as my fiance goes, he is the more attached one. I learned that his parents have tried to isolate him from his brither and create animosity between them. I had a long talk with him. Still convinced he was not abused in the same way as his brother,but he was def abused by the lap thing, etc. He started to defend it by saying his relationship w his mom is diff from my rel w my mom. UhH YEAH. So I had a meltdown and told him hat when we have kids it will be his duty to protect them from sickos like his mom. He also tried to convince me that the wiping did not continue w his brother past 6-then I explained that 6 is still way too old and explained that it had to be way past that bc the mom sent the younger son away to a 3 day camp (someone as possessive as she is would never send a 6 yo away so he must have been older) and he had to come home early bc he was constipated and could not go wo having her there (not going into all the details but her wiping has really affected him). That is one of the biggest indicators to me that its abuse. But back to my fiance-i brought up lots of examples, told him the sick behavior had to stop and that if the family still lived next door (they moved away but still visit) that I would report her. So here is what I know: he doesn''t want to think his mom is sick but he''s starting to get it, laying in her lap is OVER, he is starting to have an actual relationship with his brother thanks to his gf and me, and he agreed that we would spend xmas with my fam this year instead of his (you have no idea what a HUGE improvement this is).
Hamburger; sounds like great progress on your end too. I might go boxer shopping for replacements this weekend come to think of it :).

Sorry for the big chunky paragraph. Thanks again for the support!
 
Date: 10/30/2009 1:52:46 PM
Author: frenchfries
Typing this on my bb so I apologize in advance for spelling or grammatical errors.

So the first thing-the younger brother is a healthy man. I don''t even think he was born with so much as a birthmark. He is smart, great at sports, can without question wipe.

As far as my fiance goes, he is the more attached one. I learned that his parents have tried to isolate him from his brither and create animosity between them. I had a long talk with him. Still convinced he was not abused in the same way as his brother,but he was def abused by the lap thing, etc. He started to defend it by saying his relationship w his mom is diff from my rel w my mom. UhH YEAH. So I had a meltdown and told him hat when we have kids it will be his duty to protect them from sickos like his mom. He also tried to convince me that the wiping did not continue w his brother past 6-then I explained that 6 is still way too old and explained that it had to be way past that bc the mom sent the younger son away to a 3 day camp (someone as possessive as she is would never send a 6 yo away so he must have been older) and he had to come home early bc he was constipated and could not go wo having her there (not going into all the details but her wiping has really affected him). That is one of the biggest indicators to me that its abuse. But back to my fiance-i brought up lots of examples, told him the sick behavior had to stop and that if the family still lived next door (they moved away but still visit) that I would report her. So here is what I know: he doesn''t want to think his mom is sick but he''s starting to get it, laying in her lap is OVER, he is starting to have an actual relationship with his brother thanks to his gf and me, and he agreed that we would spend xmas with my fam this year instead of his (you have no idea what a HUGE improvement this is).
Hamburger; sounds like great progress on your end too. I might go boxer shopping for replacements this weekend come to think of it :).

Sorry for the big chunky paragraph. Thanks again for the support!
Click to expand...
Personally... I stick with my previous comment. I wouldn''t marry a man in this situation. I am not saying I wouldn''t marry him EVER but certainly not right now.

He is deeply in denial. And further, clearly conflicted about his mother''s behaviour. Trying to defend her behaviour is downright alarming.

To me, this wouldn''t just be an issue of protecting my future children from this woman. This would be an issue of removing this sick woman from our lives altogether. In no way, shape, or form would this woman even KNOW my children.

I would strongly recommend couples counseling with someone experienced in handling these issues.
 
I agree on working through issues before marriage. Have an extended engagement maybe? It seems like while there is alot of progress (w/your FI''s awareness) thanks to you, there is still a long way to go. And isn''t it possible there is other information that you aren''t aware of? I just feel there''s a great deal to be resolved still.
 
I agree with Anchor and the others that these issues should be fully addressed to your satisfaction before you get married. It might be best to use a counselor or another third party to help you sort through this because it might be helpful for him to 1) hear it from someone other than you 2) hear it from someone who is not emotionally involved in this situation.

These incidents would be something that should be reported to CPS if his brother is still a minor (I am assuming since you are engaged your FI is an adult). It sounds like there is emotional abuse going on with the mother trying to isolate the siblings from one another, and possible sexual abuse. I am really worried about those kids sleeping over.

I think you are taking the right steps by opening up about this and discussing with him now. This is a really tough thing to approach.
 
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