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Should i accept this stone?

K

KAA

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 16, 2021
Messages
15
Hello all,

First time posting and looking for advice about a stone I am considering for my wedding ring. It is not graded by a known agency but they provided this pic of the dimensions and noted the stone is 2.11 carat, VVS and F colour

Screenshot_20210216-132541_Gallery.jpg

I put it into the HCA and it came up okay it seems?

Cut advisor score of 2.
Light return, fire, scint, and spread all rated Very Good.

I don't have access to an ideal scope unfortunately. The seller is a private dealer and has a good reputation in our community.

May I have your advice?
 
Karl_K said:
That diagram is off a grading report so tell them to show you the rest of the report.
Click to expand...

Exactly. This looks like gia.
 
A diamond scanning device, such as a Sarine machine, can make a proportion image such as the one which is shown. Maybe there is no report. However if there is a full lab report, then the devil is in the details. What lab made the report? Is that particular lab credible? What about UV fluorescence? What about Polish and Symmetry? All three of these issues can alter a predicted HCA score. You can't really know what to pay until you know how properly graded the diamond really is. Get the grading side handled before deciding if the value is ok.
 
İd persio
 
I would not pay $$ on a 2ct diamond that has this little information available to me. I've gotten more thorough descriptions from ebay or buying preloved on LoupeTroop!
 
I would not want a slightly thick girdle, nor the “60-60”ish with the table slightly larger than depth, and certainly not that shallow pavilion.
 
Thank you for all the replies. I am not able to obtain any more info from the seller or a full report - he is basically acting as a middle man - so I have to make my decision only off the pic I shared and a short video clip of the stone in motion (attached). He said the cut, symmetry and polish are excellent.

Basically I just want to make sure I am not getting hosed. I don't have access to an independent appraiser where I live. I am looking for a stone that will look good in a ring for daily wear and be an heirloom piece to pass down in my family. So, I want something nice but it doesn't need to be crazy perfect. I hope that makes sense.

My google searches have all suggested this stone would have lower fire due to the large table but would look larger and have increased brilliance. The crown and pavillion angles seem to be within okay proportions to avoid too much light leakage? I guess I just need to know: numbers wise, I am getting a really badly cut stone that will look dull or is it acceptable? It is priced around 15K.
 

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KAA said:
Thank you for all the replies. I am not able to obtain any more info from the seller or a full report - he is basically acting as a middle man - so I have to make my decision only off the pic I shared and a short video clip of the stone in motion (attached). He said the cut, symmetry and polish are excellent.

Basically I just want to make sure I am not getting hosed. I don't have access to an independent appraiser where I live. I am looking for a stone that will look good in a ring for daily wear and be an heirloom piece to pass down in my family. So, I want something nice but it doesn't need to be crazy perfect. I hope that makes sense.

My google searches have all suggested this stone would have lower fire due to the large table but would look larger and have increased brilliance. The crown and pavillion angles seem to be within okay proportions to avoid too much light leakage? I guess I just need to know: numbers wise, I am getting a really badly cut stone that will look dull or is it acceptable? It is priced around 15K.
Click to expand...

15k for F VVS is quite low, I would say. Like, really low. This is probably because that stone is not F VVS but is actually a lower colour and clarity.

I would honestly make purchase contingent on getting the stone certified by a known lab (preferably GIA/AGS/HRD but I would be okay with IGI even at a pinch). Not for any other reason but you want to make sure it is at least a natural diamond, not clarity or colour enhanced in any way and the colour and clarity aren’t too far off. 15k would be an okay price for upto H VS I think, so you want it to be ideally better than that in an official document. I am not really qualified to say much on cut. I ran it by the diamondscreener cut estimator and it seems that it would be on the borderline of AGS Ideal with those proportions and it did get an HCA of 2, so I guess it should be alright?

If you do want to buy the stone I would let the seller know that you would like him to get an official GIA report for the stone on your dime (unless GIA is nigh impossible where you live, at which pick AGS/HRD/IGI in that order). Try and negotiate that he refund/partial refund you the money of the cert if the stone comes back as not natural or lower than H VS. You could also negotiate that getting the cert on your dime does not oblige you to buy. It just means that you’re out the cost of a cert (and a GIA cert costs something like $200 so it’s not prohibitively expensive).

edit to add: if the seller refuses to get it certed even on your dime, that means you should run, not walk, away from this stone. There has to be a reason they don’t want an independent view on the stone.
 
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No certificate means the vendors can say whatever color and clarity they want, but in reality, who knows? How do we know it is what it is without certificate from trusted Lab? I think its better to buy something that we are fully aware of what we’re buying. No surprise, I think its wise to not got into a deal without knowing what are we dealing. Unless its a small amount of money, but for $15k, I would like to know what actually I’m buying.
In my home country every diamond seller will say its F VVS1, but I know for sure its far from F, it looks even more tinted compared to my H.
 
Wait, have you even seen this stone in person? And can you be sure that the dimensions he showed you is even of the same stone?

Idk, OP. This just feels really sketchy. Like, they have a report but won't share it? And it's through a middle man so presumably he'd take a cut of the profit, meaning the actual stone should be "worth" less than $15k?

If it were me, I'd rather buy either a "new" stone with a cert that has lower specs, or a "preowned" stone (e.g. private seller) but still with a cert.
 
Wait, I have a question, If you tell your jeweler you want this and when you see it in real life then it doesn’t look like F color can you return it? Or you have to get it?
Now that you can’t see the diamond in real life before you buy it, why don’t you consider buying it online? Most online vendors have 30days viewing period, so you can see it yourself and if you don’t like it you can return it? If you’re in Europe you can use Blue Nile, if you’re in the States and Canada, the options are many. If you’re in Australia, there are people here in this forum that got diamond from Singapore/US.
 
KAA said:
Hello all,

First time posting and looking for advice about a stone I am considering for my wedding ring. It is not graded by a known agency but they provided this pic of the dimensions and noted the stone is 2.11 carat, VVS and F colour

Screenshot_20210216-132541_Gallery.jpg

I put it into the HCA and it came up okay it seems?

Cut advisor score of 2.
Light return, fire, scint, and spread all rated Very Good.

I don't have access to an ideal scope unfortunately. The seller is a private dealer and has a good reputation in our community.

May I have your advice?
Click to expand...

Isn’t this picture from a GIA report? If they don’t have a certificate for it, why would they provide this picture?
 
More great replies! I really appreciate all the great advice. A bit more info as it does sound super sketchy but is maybe not as bad as it seems: the seller is a known jewelry dealer in my city. He has a great reputation and many friends have bought from him and had independent appraisal abroad later, with value coming in much higher than purchase price. So, I trust he is not a seller of fake stones. We live in a middle eastern country and his agent overseas has acquired this stone from someone a bit down on their luck, hence they sold it at a low price. He has asked the stone be sent to him regardless of whether I buy it; i am not locked in to buy it and can definitely decline if it is not as represented.

I will definitely ask if I can pay to have the stone appraised before being sent to us or see about an appraisal in my country. The challenge is that we live in a small city and I suspect he is known to all jewelers here - I wonder if I would get a true independent appraisal or if they would say what they want him to say if they are contacts.

So all the sketchiness aside, assuming that the stone is as said (or slightly worse in colour or clarity), it seems I can infer that this might be a good purchase?
 
If there is a report they would surely provide it. A diamond from a highly regarded lab carries a premium to it so it is not only in the best interest for you to see the report, there is a benefit to the seller in their justification for the price they are asking.
If the diagram is, in fact, from a GIA report and the seller isn’t showing you the full report I suspect it is because the stone has been modified (i.e., fractured filled or heat treated), or it is not a natural diamond (from the earth, not man-made) which would all be indicated on the report, in which case the seller is not wanting to represent the stone accurately- they are selling you “a diamond” but not in the context I believe you think it is.
If the stone is, in fact, an untreated natural diamond, it would already have a report from GIA or AGS. Most often when a stone does not have a confirmed, validated report from either of those labs it means the stone would not get the grading you have been told it has for the simple reason the stone does not meet the standards for said grades. Bottom line is dealers/sellers know generally the grade a reputable, independent lab would give it and know if, basically, the stone is worthy of taking the time and laying out the money for a report. This is often where labs for profit, such as most of the EGL labs come into play: A particular stone is represented a certain way and they are, essentially, paying a for-profit lab to provide a report that says the stone is of finer color and clarity than it really is, and then an unsuspecting customer pays the cost for a stone that really is not, in fact, that color and clarity, yet thinks that because it has a lab report it is all the things the report states it is.
If you are purchasing a stone that does have a GIA or AGS report and you do not know of the seller is widely respected and known to have a good reputation, you should contact that lab with the report number to verify it’s authenticity, or you can simply go to that lab’s online report check and enter the report number.
 
KAA said:
More great replies! I really appreciate all the great advice. A bit more info as it does sound super sketchy but is maybe not as bad as it seems: the seller is a known jewelry dealer in my city. He has a great reputation and many friends have bought from him and had independent appraisal abroad later, with value coming in much higher than purchase price. So, I trust he is not a seller of fake stones. We live in a middle eastern country and his agent overseas has acquired this stone from someone a bit down on their luck, hence they sold it at a low price. He has asked the stone be sent to him regardless of whether I buy it; i am not locked in to buy it and can definitely decline if it is not as represented.

I will definitely ask if I can pay to have the stone appraised before being sent to us or see about an appraisal in my country. The challenge is that we live in a small city and I suspect he is known to all jewelers here - I wonder if I would get a true independent appraisal or if they would say what they want him to say if they are contacts.

So all the sketchiness aside, assuming that the stone is as said (or slightly worse in colour or clarity), it seems I can infer that this might be a good purchase?
Click to expand...

IMHO this is not a good purchase. The cut isn't great, and without a report you literally have no idea what you are buying. I don't doubt it's a natural diamond, but I expect its much lower color and clarity than the jeweler is telling you.
 
KAA said:
More great replies! I really appreciate all the great advice. A bit more info as it does sound super sketchy but is maybe not as bad as it seems: the seller is a known jewelry dealer in my city. He has a great reputation and many friends have bought from him and had independent appraisal abroad later, with value coming in much higher than purchase price. So, I trust he is not a seller of fake stones. We live in a middle eastern country and his agent overseas has acquired this stone from someone a bit down on their luck, hence they sold it at a low price. He has asked the stone be sent to him regardless of whether I buy it; i am not locked in to buy it and can definitely decline if it is not as represented.

I will definitely ask if I can pay to have the stone appraised before being sent to us or see about an appraisal in my country. The challenge is that we live in a small city and I suspect he is known to all jewelers here - I wonder if I would get a true independent appraisal or if they would say what they want him to say if they are contacts.

So all the sketchiness aside, assuming that the stone is as said (or slightly worse in colour or clarity), it seems I can infer that this might be a good purchase?
Click to expand...

A jeweler is not necessarily an independent appraiser. Yes, some jewelers are legit appraisers as in the case of those specifically trained with the AGS appraisal program but honestly in my view if they are still selling diamonds they are not independent. What I mentioned previously here is good for insurance appraisals but not to verify a stone’s characteristics.
A known “rule” about diamonds is that there are no deals when it comes to purchasing diamonds. They are luxury items that command a premium price. The only “deal” is by comparing stones with respected lab reports from known reputable sellers and not overpaying for something you could get of similar quality elsewhere, often for the same diamond of part of a virtual inventory that many sellers have access to.
 
OP, I can understand the lower price now that it's being sold as a "2nd hand" piece. But still, if you're really interested in this stone, I'd try to see it in person first. Then decide if it's worth getting a certificate from a trusted appraiser. And if it comes back satisfactory (as represented), then and only then would I buy it.

From personal experience, the first vendor I went to went looking for a diamond for my engagement ring was a "trusted", quite popular brick and mortar store. A family friend had just gotten a "great deal" on an emerald cut diamond there. When I went to look, most of their selection were with EGL USA certs. I kid you not, even someone as not-color-sensitive as me could tell their diamonds had a tint despite all the jewelry store lighting. One even had a visible black carbon spot. And they were graded G-I/VS-SI!!
 
@KAA if you can see the stone first its good then, you can see if you like it/not, if the color is bothering you/not. If you like it and you think its worth $15k then its all good. If you think you can’t get better diamond at that price. I understand the limitations that you have, living in third world countries have limited accessibility in everything (I came from third world country). Now its all came down to whether you like it/do you think its worth $15k and if you can find a better one within the same price range from where you came from.
 
KAA said:
More great replies! I really appreciate all the great advice. A bit more info as it does sound super sketchy but is maybe not as bad as it seems: the seller is a known jewelry dealer in my city. He has a great reputation and many friends have bought from him and had independent appraisal abroad later, with value coming in much higher than purchase price. So, I trust he is not a seller of fake stones. We live in a middle eastern country and his agent overseas has acquired this stone from someone a bit down on their luck, hence they sold it at a low price. He has asked the stone be sent to him regardless of whether I buy it; i am not locked in to buy it and can definitely decline if it is not as represented.

I will definitely ask if I can pay to have the stone appraised before being sent to us or see about an appraisal in my country. The challenge is that we live in a small city and I suspect he is known to all jewelers here - I wonder if I would get a true independent appraisal or if they would say what they want him to say if they are contacts.

So all the sketchiness aside, assuming that the stone is as said (or slightly worse in colour or clarity), it seems I can infer that this might be a good purchase?
Click to expand...

I would really strongly recommend getting a grading report instead of an independent appraisal - if the stone is not there in your country for now, it could be very easy to do so. GIA, HRD and IGI have either grading labs or representative offices in Dubai, Hong Kong, Tel Aviv and Mumbai (which, if you're located in the Middle East are probably the closest offices to you).
 
AllAboardTheBlingTrain said:
I would really strongly recommend getting a grading report instead of an independent appraisal - if the stone is not there in your country for now, it could be very easy to do so. GIA, HRD and IGI have either grading labs or representative offices in Dubai, Hong Kong, Tel Aviv and Mumbai (which, if you're located in the Middle East are probably the closest offices to you).
Click to expand...

If OP lives in a small town, far from capital, getting a diamond graded is not as easy as us who lives in the States. First, how to get the diamond to the lab is a problem, in my home country for example, the employees of the delivery companies can’t be as trusted as us who lives in the States. Getting value-able things from one point to another is not an easy task. Second, insurance is not a thing in other countries. Especially jewelry insurance and getting a diamond insured just for grading, is definitely Not an option. Many still transport valuable goods by themselves, even it means driving for hours. So some part of the world still rely on in-person shopping, especially for diamond.
 
Why do you believe it's an F VVS? Why do you believe it's natural? For that matter, why do you even believe it's a diamond at all? This is sounding like 'some guy said' sort of grading. This makes no sense. The difference between F/VVS1 and G/VS1 is nearly a factor of 2. An appraisal is not what you want, it's a grading lab. Accept no substitutes. Accept no excuses. Offer a $1000 'premium' if he gets a GIA/HRD/IGI inspection. When he refuses, and he will, ask yourself why.
 
munchee said:
If OP lives in a small town, far from capital, getting a diamond graded is not as easy as us who lives in the States. First, how to get the diamond to the lab is a problem, in my home country for example, the employees of the delivery companies can’t be as trusted as us who lives in the States. Getting value-able things from one point to another is not an easy task. Second, insurance is not a thing in other countries. Especially jewelry insurance and getting a diamond insured just for grading, is definitely Not an option. Many still transport valuable goods by themselves, even it means driving for hours. So some part of the world still rely on in-person shopping, especially for diamond.
Click to expand...

I get that. And I totally understand that I'm quite privileged to be able to slap a sticker on a box and trust that it'll end up to its intended destination 99% of the time.

That being said, this is a $15,000 purchase! I can't imagine handing over that kind of money based on a pic, a gif, and a handshake without doing a little more legwork first.
 
Not just a $15,000 item, an item where they could nearly double the price if they were willing to do the legwork and pay $180 for the inspection, assuming what they're saying is correct. They're asking you to do it, and they will pass the savings along. Put bluntly, I don't believe them.
 
AnastasiaBeaverhausen said:
I get that. And I totally understand that I'm quite privileged to be able to slap a sticker on a box and trust that it'll end up to its intended destination 99% of the time.

That being said, this is a $15,000 purchase! I can't imagine handing over that kind of money based on a pic, a gif, and a handshake without doing a little more legwork first.
Click to expand...

Yes, me myself won’t buy a $15k diamond without certificate!!! Never! I want to know what I’m buying too. But in other sides of the world this practice is very common. People buy diamond from “reputable/trusted” seller based on words of mouth without certificate or only “store” certificate which actually also doesn’t mean anything, they can say whatever they want. And that is an extremely common practice!!! :lol: Everything is F VVS! Which actually are not!!! Off course with a little bit more searching, there are GIA cert stones which maybe require us to fly in a bigger cities. I don’t know about OP country but there should be someone in your country that’s selling GIA stones. You might want to search for those vendors,they might not be much people selling GIA certificate stones but I believe there will be some.
 
munchee said:
Yes, me myself won’t buy a $15k diamond without certificate!!! Never! I want to know what I’m buying too. But in other sides of the world this practice is very common. People buy diamond from “reputable/trusted” seller based on words of mouth without certificate or only “store” certificate which actually also doesn’t mean anything, they can say whatever they want. And that is an extremely common practice!!! :lol: Everything is F VVS! Which actually are not!!! Off course with a little bit more searching, there are GIA cert stones which maybe require us to fly in a bigger cities. I don’t know about OP country but there should be someone in your country that’s selling GIA stones. You might want to search for those vendors,they might not be much people selling GIA certificate stones but I believe there will be some.
Click to expand...

Oh I hear ya. My mom bought a jade pendant from a "reputable" vendor from China for my dad. Green coloring came off of the pendant and onto my dad's skin within weeks. And of course, everyone else's pieces from that vendor were "totally fine." Hurrumph.
 
I would be very wary as several aspects of this seem fishy. At a bare minimum I would insist on the vendor ordering a reputable grading report and they need to spell out their return policy. Have you compared this stone with comparable stones from trusted online vendors?
 
This is a big no. The things the dealer is telling you are obviously lies. The table is too big, the facets are splintery, and there's no way it will be the color and clarity he says it is. He is playing you. You can can do much better. We can help you find a diamond.
 
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