Should little kids be banned from some restaurants?

[ksinger]

I voted NO, but not because I think it is a good idea to take your toddler to an $$$$ restaurant. I just do not like children-unfriendly or animal-unfriendly signs. It can be worded differently, something like, due to alcohol license of the restaurant, children are allowed to sit at the balcony only... Restrict an area, but not make it sound prohibitive.

I think that's what I don't like most of all. Good point, Crasru!

And see, this is what gets ME. The hackles up at the wording or the perception that because they won't allow certain children, that "this place must hate kids" or is "unfriendly". Take the emotion out of it, and it becomes very clear. You guys are projecting YOUR emotions about children onto the restaurant owner who does this, when in reality it's probably strictly a business decision. I see this emotion-laden attitude as not entirely unlike those people who begin to yell any time someone disapproves of something a child does. "You just don't like kids!" No, I don't like badly behaved kids - and it's not whether I "like Children", it's about behavior, and their behavior is the parents' responsibility. And...we're back to the parent again. As has been pointed out over and over, this is about PARENTS.

You know, I even had a dear dear friend of mine do this to me - let her emotion overcome reason and prior experience to the contrary. Nearly floored me. I am honorary aunt to her 4 children. They are good kids and I'm quite fond of them (all grown now), but one day when her youngest child was misbehaving, I never said a WORD, but she could tell I disapproved - guess I picked up that ability to radiate disapproval while not moving a muscle, from my mom. The daughter - about 8 - had been told by mom that we were going on a walk - just mom and I, but daughter thought she would insert herself - she was by god GOING to come with us. Mom showed little inclination to make it stick, and I was not pleased, from the standpoint that we had planned an adult walk, and my friend was not following through on what she had told her daughter, which I consider a bad way to deal with children. If you lay down a rule, or tell them to do something, and then don't hold to that, you have effectively LIED to them. Every time you do that you tell them that your word is NOT good, and that you don't mean what you say. That, and caving every time your children try to test you, is just lazy parenting. Finally mom turned around, nearly in tears, and PLEADED with the girl, JUSTIFYING her need for her own friendS TO AN 8 YEAR-OLD. What would have been wrong with "Daughter, I SAID we were going alone, now go back into the house RIGHT NOW."

The next day she called and said, "It seems like you don't like my daughter." As I said, I was taken aback. Talk about getting the whole situation dead wrong. Maybe she knew on some level that I was not happy with her, and tried to twist it into being about her kids rather than her, I don't know. As my mother trained me, assuming that people don't like me kids would not be my first reaction. MY first reaction would be, "Wow, my friend who has been good and kind with my kids for years is disapproving. Did I miss something? Was my child behaving badly? Was I handling the situation badly? It would NOT be to accuse my friend of disliking my child. In any case, not wishing a big falling out with my friend, who is truly a lovely person and quite dear to me, I said carefully, "No, I like her just fine and always have. But I don't like it when she misbehaves." What I wanted to say, was "Good lord girl, I was disappointed in YOU!" I should have perhaps, but believe it or not I keep my mouth pretty much shut.

Her children have grown up fine BTW - that 8 year old is now a young lady of 21. I still like them, and they still call me Aunt.

 

[zoebartlett]

Rules like this are cropping up because some parents feel entitled to continue their old lifestyle with child in tow. I've actually seen parents ask if a high end restaurant could make chicken fingers and fries for their 3 year old because they don't think they'll eat off of the menu. They were in a huff when the chef refused (but suggested variations on menu items that would make them more kid friendly). The didn't want to pay the menu prices for their child who wouldn't eat half of the meal. Obviously they should have hired a sitter or picked a more child friendly restaurant!

Yeah, I can see that this would be annoying for a chef, and I do concede that this type of example is where it's best to leave kids at home or find more child-friendly places to eat.

 

[zoebartlett]

Ksinger -- I'm not projecting anything onto anyone. I realize it's a business decision, and I do realize that when owners ban kids from some restaurants, they're not saying they hate kids. I get it.

 

[ksinger]

Ksinger -- I'm not projecting anything onto anyone. I realize it's a business decision, and I do realize that when owners ban kids from some restaurants, they're not saying they hate kids. I get it.

Fair enough. I'm sorry if I came on too strong. It's just that I too am aware of language and when people keep tossing out the phrase "kid-friendly", well, phrases like that always come laden with their unspoken opposite - that anyone who denies children for any reason is "kid-unfriendly", and who on earth would want to be labeled that way?

It's kinda like the the people who coined "pro-life". It is almost guaranteed that anyone who then disagrees with them can instantly be labeled what...anti-life? Pro-death? And it happens. All the time.

I guess I'M just tired of everything being either/or, or mere verbiage being so quick and effective in jerking people's emotions is all.

 

[iugurl]

I voted NO, but not because I think it is a good idea to take your toddler to an $$$$ restaurant. I just do not like children-unfriendly or animal-unfriendly signs. It can be worded differently, something like, due to alcohol license of the restaurant, children are allowed to sit at the balcony only... Restrict an area, but not make it sound prohibitive.

Hmm.. I am confused. Do you think animals should not be prohibited from entering restaurants?

 

[HollyS]

I think I'll skip over the previous five pages of responses and simply say "Yes".

1) Any business may restrict any patron/customer/client for any reason. Their call.
2) Increasingly, people don't seem to have a sense of propriety where it concerns their children. They don't 'belong' everywhere.
3) The world does not have to put up with anyone's child. We didn't have the little darling. You deal. We'll pass.

 

[Gypsy]

You know what? I don't get why everyone is so big on the government interfering in every aspect of life. The parents I know do not take small kids that are incapable of behaving to "nicer" more intimate restaurants. They have common sense. I have never been in a "nice" restaurant and had a problem with a screaming or misbehaving child.

No I think regulating whether or not kids are allowed is asinine. Completely a waste of time. And a waste or breath.

Teaching children how to behave in public is the key. NOT keeping them out of sight.

Gypsy, your friends may have common sense but there is a LARGE quantity of parents who do not. And while you may never have had an experience with an irritating child at dinner in a nice restaurant, I assure you it happens more than you think. I spend a lot more time in fine dining restaurants (because i have worked in them for 15 years) than many other people will in their entire lifetimes. My restaurant allows children, and carries high chairs to accommodate them. However, on numerous occasions, those young children act terribly and their parents do nothing to stop it, and YES it DOES irritate the adults dining in the restaurant.

It is not asinine in any way to try to run your business as effectively as possible, and create a pleasant experience for people spending hundreds of dollars on an evening of dinner. Your idea of teaching children to behave being the key is a great one -- in theory. However, in real life we are having this debate because this is exactly what many people do NOT do.

I totally get what you are saying. My asinine comment isn't about restaurants themselves regulating their patrons. I am fine with "No shirts, No shoes, No service" and other decisions that an establishment makes for themselves. What I don't care about is the government regulating every little thing... taking up our lawmakers time to pass ordinances and some such stuff regulating where people can take their kids and where they can't to me is what is asinine.

I am just sick of the government being brought in to every little thing like big brother.

You don't want kids at your restaurant, fine with me. I don't have any. But the day the government starts regulating what establishments get to be kid free is the day I borrow someone else's kid and go to a 'kid free' restaurant... then sue the government for wasting my tax dollars on stupid shit when they turn me away.

I have no issue with a restaurant deciding for themselves that children under 8 are not welcome unless it is at a private party that rents out either a private room or the whole establishment. No skin off my back, and most of my friends with kids have a sitter they can call.

 

[Gypsy]

I voted NO, but not because I think it is a good idea to take your toddler to an $$$$ restaurant. I just do not like children-unfriendly or animal-unfriendly signs. It can be worded differently, something like, due to alcohol license of the restaurant, children are allowed to sit at the balcony only... Restrict an area, but not make it sound prohibitive.

Hmm.. I am confused. Do you think animals should not be prohibited from entering restaurants?

I gotta tell you. We live near Carmel where dogs are everywhere. It kinda skeeves me out. I do not want a dog in my nice restaurant. And I love dogs and cats. But there are some places they just do NOT belong. If you have outside seating, okay. I get that. But indoors. Um, NO.

And it's not a matter of being friendly-- it's a matter of being hygienic. Dogs lick their own asses. No thanks.

 

[iugurl]

I voted NO, but not because I think it is a good idea to take your toddler to an $$$$ restaurant. I just do not like children-unfriendly or animal-unfriendly signs. It can be worded differently, something like, due to alcohol license of the restaurant, children are allowed to sit at the balcony only... Restrict an area, but not make it sound prohibitive.

Hmm.. I am confused. Do you think animals should not be prohibited from entering restaurants?

I gotta tell you. We live near Carmel where dogs are everywhere. It kinda skeeves me out. I do not want a dog in my nice restaurant. And I love dogs and cats. But there are some places they just do NOT belong. If you have outside seating, okay. I get that. But indoors. Um, NO.

And it's not a matter of being friendly-- it's a matter of being hygienic. Dogs lick their own asses. No thanks.

I love animals, but I don't want animals in any restaurant, nice or not. I don't really want animals (except service animals) anywhere inside a public building (Target, Wal-Mart, a mall etc), except for Petsmart or the like! I can't imagine a good defense for allowing regular animals inside restaurants, yuck!

 

[Gypsy]

I voted yes.

But why a ban? Because most parents of well-behaved children don't try to bring their kids to an age-inappropriate restaurant. It's the clueless parents who usually do it and then tune out when their kids go ballistic. The same kind of parents who bring toddlers to violent, scary movies. And they're the same people least likely to believe that maybe their kids shouldn't be there or that they should leave if things get out of hand, and will react badly if you ask them to leave. So you have to have a rule that applies to all.

This makes perfect sense to me.

 

[KimberlyH]

Private businesses should have the right to determine who they serve, and the public may respond in kind by choosing either to patronize a busineess or not.

Pre- and post- child I've always thought children free restaurants are a good idea. And even if I didn't no big deal, I'll just find another place to eat.

As for the whole "parents these days" as a former teacher and mom I have encountered a lot of parents. Most are considerate and doing their best to raise children to be the same. People notice those who aren't because they stand out, it's easy for well behaved kids to go unnoticed.

 

[centralsquare]

I definitely think so. If you are out for a special occasion (anniversary, birthday) and you're paying a good amount of money, then the last thing you want is a child ruining the dinner. If a restaurant bans children, it's up to the patrons whether they approve; they don't have to give them their business if they don't approve of the rule. Perhaps an alternative to this type of rule is one in which the parent has to take a screaming child out of the restaurant.

I would also be in favor of this rule in first class. A few weeks ago I sat in front of a child that was maybe 5-6 and he kept kicking my chair so much that I was bouncing forward. I turned around and said something. The mother's response was: "what do you want me to do about it?" Are you serious? Ask him to stop?!? She had done nothing up to that point at all! Makes me frustrated all over again just to think of it!

 

[Laila619]

I think I'll skip over the previous five pages of responses and simply say "Yes".

1) Any business may restrict any patron/customer/client for any reason. Their call.

Well, just to be devil's advocate, they can't for certain reasons, unless they want a lawsuit on their hands.

I'm pretty neutral on the whole thing, I guess I could go either way.

I'm curious, for those of you who voted YES (the majority), do you also support the ban on smoking in restaurants and bars?

 

[Lanie]

Laila -- YES. In Houston we have that ordinance. In fact, it's banned in all public places, including apartment building hallways! It's great.

 

[ksinger]

I think I'll skip over the previous five pages of responses and simply say "Yes".

1) Any business may restrict any patron/customer/client for any reason. Their call.

Well, just to be devil's advocate, they can't for certain reasons, unless they want a lawsuit on their hands.

I'm pretty neutral on the whole thing, I guess I could go either way.

I'm curious, for those of you who voted YES (the majority), do you also support the ban on smoking in restaurants and bars?

Well, the one has zero to do with the other, since one is an individual business decision, and the other has been and is, a legislated public health issue. I'm not sure there will be some sort of correlation between yes/no on the one question, and yes/no on the other. But for myself, yes, I do support a ban on smoking in restaurants. I think a smoker should be quite able to forego a smoke in an indoor public space for a whole hour for the greater public good, don't you?

 

[Laila619]

I think I'll skip over the previous five pages of responses and simply say "Yes".

1) Any business may restrict any patron/customer/client for any reason. Their call.

Well, just to be devil's advocate, they can't for certain reasons, unless they want a lawsuit on their hands.

I'm pretty neutral on the whole thing, I guess I could go either way.

I'm curious, for those of you who voted YES (the majority), do you also support the ban on smoking in restaurants and bars?

Well, the one has zero to do with the other, since one is an individual business decision, and the other has been and is, a legislated public health issue. I'm not sure there will be some sort of correlation between yes/no on the one question, and yes/no on the other. But for myself, yes, I do support a ban on smoking in restaurants. I think a smoker should be quite able to forego a smoke in an indoor public space for a whole hour for the greater public good, don't you?

Absolutely. Lanie and Ksinger, I too support (and love!) the smoking ban.

My thinking was that I've heard irate smokers say, "Smoking is legal, and I should be able to smoke whenever and wherever I want. If non-smokers don't like it, they should stay home!" I guess I'm wondering if those same people would also say, "I should be able to bring my kids anywhere I want! If other patrons don't like it, they can stay home."

 

[manderz]

I'm curious, for those of you who voted YES (the majority), do you also support the ban on smoking in restaurants and bars?

Absolutely. Exposure to unruly children isn't going to slowly give me lung cancer and kill me. But, I'm also a former smoker living in NYS, where it's already illegal to smoke indoors.

 

[movie zombie]

quote="Laila619|1311003025|2971412"]I'm curious, for those of you who voted YES (the majority), do you also support the ban on smoking in restaurants and bars?[/quote]

yes.

 

[Lulie]

I'm curious, for those of you who voted YES (the majority), do you also support the ban on smoking in restaurants and bars?

It's an ordinance where we live. You can't smoke in stores, restaurants, sidewalks and pretty much any property zoned as Public Facility.
Same goes for Leaf blowers, unleashed dogs, etc.

 

[jstarfireb]

I'm curious, for those of you who voted YES (the majority), do you also support the ban on smoking in restaurants and bars?

Abso-freaking-lutely. Cigarette smoke is something I find even more distasteful than letting a poorly behaved child run around in a fancy restaurant. But more importantly, secondhand smoke causes cancer, so it's a public health issue.

 

[kiett98]

Looks like it isn't only restaurants...

http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/parenting/the-no-kids-allowed-movement-is-spreading-2516110/

 

[MonkeyPie]

Looks like it isn't only restaurants...

http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/parenting/the-no-kids-allowed-movement-is-spreading-2516110/

I respond with this.
http://shine.yahoo.com/event/travel/you-want-to-ban-my-child-from-airline-travel-1237496

I hate people. (And here I managed not to post here for weeks. Sigh.)

 

[kiett98]

Looks like it isn't only restaurants...

http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/parenting/the-no-kids-allowed-movement-is-spreading-2516110/

I respond with this.
http://shine.yahoo.com/event/travel/you-want-to-ban-my-child-from-airline-travel-1237496

I hate people. (And here I managed not to post here for weeks. Sigh.)

Yes, it is pretty ridiculous some of the places that are trying to ban kids... a grocery store??? Come on!

 

[Aoife]

Looks like it isn't only restaurants...

http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/parenting/the-no-kids-allowed-movement-is-spreading-2516110/

That's exactly why I voted "no." Not because I think a high-end restaurant doesn't have the right to set and enforce an age limit, but because for me saying any establishment "should" (which was the original question) ban children sets up a troubling precedent. And here's the funny thing: my children are completely grown, and I've never been someone who coos over random babies, and gets misty-eyed at the thought of grandchildren. I am infuriated by poorly behaved children--but I'm enraged at the parents, not the kids.

So what else are we going to ban? Fat people--and who gets to define "fat"? People whose disabilities are troubling? The mentally handicapped or physically impaired? People with severe scarring? A society that has little tolerance for children is not taking part in socializing the next generation. You know, that next generation that is supposed to grow up to pay taxes and help support the older generations.

 

[Pandora II]

Maybe it's because I'm from Europe that I just think the whole idea is bonkers.

I lived in Italy for 8 years and I can't think of a single restaurant that didn't welcome children - it was normal for kids to go out to eat with their parents. Even here in London I've never been turned away because I have my 2 year-old with me and that has been the case since she was a week old. Even fancy places have high chairs, toys and colouring books. Ditto in France.

I wouldn't dream of ordering my daughter a 'kid's meal' - if we take her out with us to somewhere decent then I want her to eat nice food. She has never eaten baby food even once at home - she went straight to eating what we were having. I will ask for an extra plate and she will have some of our food or at the most I might order her a starter if what we are having isn't suitable.

DH and I went out for dinner for our wedding anniversary last night and DD came too. She can throw tantrums with the best of them, but she knows not to in restaurants and we come equipped with things to keep her quiet and amused. As it was the restaurant provided colouring books and a mini jigsaw to take home. She was pretty much silent all evening.

Perhaps we should ban people who have bad body odour or who don't have nice table manners, or thin people who sit and pick at a single lettuce leaf or fat people who can barely fit in the chair let alone behind the table. What about someone who needs to use an artificial voice to talk - that's got to be pretty irritating?

Obviously if a business wants to make that decision then that is their perogative but I probably wouldn't choose to go there because of their general principles.

 

[Gypsy]

Pandora, when I was in Europe there were kids everywhere, but they were MUCH better behaved than most american kids are in public. Fortunately, my own friend's kids are not an issue, but the things I see strangers allow their kids to do is mind boggling.

At the grocery store on Monday there was a little red headed girl, probably around 5 SCREAMING with laughter and running to and fro in the meat section of the store. Her parents were no where to be seen. At all. So I went up to customer service and they went to get her. She KICKED the poor guy (he was like 17), screaming bloody murder. And THEN the mother came running-- from the other side of the store and started YELLING at the customer service guy for scaring her child.

Yeah.

Then I was in Chipotle yesterday. Parents had SIX KIDS. Well the younger two decided to have a scream off. Parents sat there eating. And occassionally shushed the kids when they saw people glaring at them. It was obvious that they didn't mean it. The kids knew it and kept screaming. Louder and lounder. Store manager finally had to intervene. And the dad got in the guy's face about it. And they left in a huff. Of course, they had finished eating.

I KNOW children can behave in public. I have a picture of me, at 2 years old, in Maxim in Paris. Just sitting there.

You have to understand that these restrictions aren't against the kids. The kids are the symptom. The disease is the parenting philosophies that the majority here have that are raising a generation of brats.

 

[TristanC]

Hey Kenny, some people thought to post the exact same topic as you did.

Most of them are chefs or in food service.

Most of them feel the way you do. No haters please. Just alternative viewpoints.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?2012-Restaurant-bans-young-children

 

[Arkteia]

I voted NO, but not because I think it is a good idea to take your toddler to an $$$$ restaurant. I just do not like children-unfriendly or animal-unfriendly signs. It can be worded differently, something like, due to alcohol license of the restaurant, children are allowed to sit at the balcony only... Restrict an area, but not make it sound prohibitive.

Hmm.. I am confused. Do you think animals should not be prohibited from entering restaurants?

I gotta tell you. We live near Carmel where dogs are everywhere. It kinda skeeves me out. I do not want a dog in my nice restaurant. And I love dogs and cats. But there are some places they just do NOT belong. If you have outside seating, okay. I get that. But indoors. Um, NO.

And it's not a matter of being friendly-- it's a matter of being hygienic. Dogs lick their own asses. No thanks.

I love animals, but I don't want animals in any restaurant, nice or not. I don't really want animals (except service animals) anywhere inside a public building (Target, Wal-Mart, a mall etc), except for Petsmart or the like! I can't imagine a good defense for allowing regular animals inside restaurants, yuck!

OK, I shall not go to a restaurant with a dog or a cat - to start with, I do not have a dog... I said, I do not like child-unfriendly or animal-unfriendly signs. My words were slightly twisted.

Obviously, most people do not take their dogs to public places. But since it came to an issue of dogs...let me describe a very concrete situation: a blind man with a service dog wants to go to a nice restaurant. Does this man have the right to enter the restaurant with his dog? Is the dog banned? Or, do we say to other patrons, "sorry, we have to bend the rules because the man is blind". Not too nice, either... You'll probably say, it is an extreme example but these situations happen.

Usually I would not take my kid to an expensive restaurant. We did it, however, when we celebrated his brother's graduation from the University. Everything was very nice, and my 7-year old behaved super well. He was proud of his brother, proud of being brought to a nice place, sitting there with adults... Proud to have a brother who was 14 years older. I can not imagine him not being with us. As to flying, he already got his Premier status this year. Absolutely no problem behaving. Sitting quietly there and watching cartoons.

In 2000 we all went to Sicily. In Palermo, there is a nice restaurant, right in the centre of the city. Granted, our older son was 10 at that time but still a kid. You should have seen how the maitre would greet him, the waiters would treat him as an adult and he behaved like an adult. There were lots of younger kids around and you could see they were welcomed. In fact, sitting at the table with adults and being treated with respect makes them better-mannered and develops taste in good food.

Personally, I like kids - everywhere! Adults going to restaurants in shorts, though, irritate me. No one would think of banning them but really, sitting at the table and observing a pair of hairy legs repulses me much more than any misbehaving kid. Or even a dog. Bon appetit!

 

[Gypsy]

crasru... Most working dogs are incredibly well trained for every situation. I have seen them many times in restaurants and not thought twice about it.

Why? They walk in. Do not look at anyone's food, or nose up at a table. Noses down, eyes alert. Then when they are seated they are laying on the ground, snoozing. Not begging for scraps or on a chair, or (heaven help me Carmel can really scar you) licking people's faces in the middle of a meal. Then they get up and walk out when it is time.

There was a time when people trained their children how to behave in restaurants. The kids would come in, holding a parents hand and talking in an inside voice. Would sit and eat their meal without disturbing those around them. And then leave without any kicking, screaming or tantrums. Those times have passed apparently and now it is perfectly acceptable for parents to abdicate on all responsibility regarding teaching their children how to behave in public and then those same parents get offended when others don't care to have their ill mannered children inflicted on them. And the problem is you never know if you are going to get the responsible parents and the well mannered child. Or the irresponsible parent and their brat.

BUT if there was some sort of "service dog training" certification course for kids and vest that they earn that SHOWS that they can act at least as good as a service dog. Then sure... I'd let the kid with the vest in to my restaurant.

Problem is.... yes... your parenting choices are YOUR BUSINESS. But don't be surprised if I don't want to deal with them in MY life or my restaurant if those choices don't include teaching your child how to be well mannered in public. Either you accept that other people's opinions have some merit and raise your child so that it is conscious that it's behavior impacts others and people will be happy to have that child around. Or you can ignore what everyone else says and decide that you feel that the word "NO" inhibits their development (into what? Brats?) and then you have a child that has no regard for anyone, including its parents, but certainly not strangers. And then you will get strangers who feel that your child's behavior inhibits their enjoyment of places and events, and so they tell YOU the parent NO to bringing your child to those places and events.

Cause and effect.

 

[Jennifer W]

Pandora, when I was in Europe there were kids everywhere, but they were MUCH better behaved than most american kids are in public. ...

I don't know why this is the case. The American children I know personally behave themselves perfectly well (ok, that would be about 10 or 11 kids, so probably not a representative sample, but they do).

If kids in restaurants in Europe behaved in the way that people are describing on this thread (running around, screaming etc) their parents would be asked to remove them. Not terribly politely either, because we don't really care about causing offense on stuff like that.