Speaking of price hikes..

[jszweda]

Someone on one of the other forums put something up about price hikes in diamonds, and it reminded me of a thought I had. This is just a thought-as insane as it may or may not sound.

Supposedly the block D material from Tanzania is mined out completely, and supposedly those lovely Tsvoraties are on the virge of being mined out too. Spessertites are supposedly gone from Namibia, and it''s becoming so hard to get that orange rough from anywhere. Now barring certain vendors who have bought in quanity from some time ago, does it seem like in some cases that some people claim how rare something is but they have it all day long like there is no end in sight?

If I remember correctly, sometime shortly before 2000, there was a flood in Tanzania, and then there was some political situation. The next thing you know, the mining rights were more controlled compared to before if I remember correctly. Now, here we are some 5-6 years later and there is no more block D material.

There are rumors going around and speculation that DeBeers is considering buying the mines, blah blah blah. Maybe they are, maybe they aren''t. If all the good stuff is gone, unless they anticpate a price increase in the long term with the lighter colored stuff like the block D stuff, what would be the point if there is supposedly so little left of that now?

Who is to say that during the turmoil that comes about in places overseas that some government, investor, owner, etc. didn''t decide to hoard everything they could then to control the market later on? Who''s to say someone isn''t sitting on an entire stash of some stockpile of rough over seas so they can control the market like DeBeers does with their diamonds?

Granted, things eventually mine out. Eventually new deposits of various things are found. That''s a given. Knowing though that places like the US are huge markets and there are huge profits to be made with precious stones, the poor miners are making peanuts to find rough. Some of them know they are getting robbed relatively speaking, why not control the market for it if you''re the only source of it?

Wouldn''t it be ironic, if someone over seas somehow or another managed to stockpile some huge stash of rough and keep a lid on it? If you could do that, you could be like DeBeers except that nobody would know you exist. Who''s to say it hasn''t happened with someone with some material, and if it hasn''t, who is to say that it won''t?

 

[MJO]

Hi Joe,

That is exactly what does happen. Big dealers buy most of the mine production of very good rough and keep it in stock until the mine is mined out (or they buy the mineing rights as in Tanzanite One). They individually don''t have the entire stock pile but do cummulatively. They then promote the stone in new venues and increase demand. This increase in demand drives up the prices and they then slowly release the stock inventory. I beleive this happened with Andesine. From what I understand the mines from the Congo and China are mined out and now you see the stones advertised everywhere.

Regards,
Maurice

 

[jszweda]

Hi Maurice.

I''m glad you bought up that andesine bit, as I have seen a lot of buzz from various places about that and red laboradite. There is a network that says that they have a vendor who has andesine and won''t disclose it''s origin. I wonder if he had mining rights, and he figured he could prepetuate the whole mine it out faster bit just so the price would go up.

I have a feeling some of these site owners in Africa have wised up over the years, and I have a feeling someone is doing that on a few things. I really wonder about the Tanzanite. Maybe there is no such hoarding, maybe there is.

I''ve heard that some oriental bunch was trying to buy a mine for I think it was Orgeon Sunstone or something like that in that color range just so they could fix the prices. Then again, can you really blame them for wanting to?

I guess with any given material, if you have enough speculation, and enough hoarding, it really helps out with the marketing of stuff. LOL. I just have to wonder though about some of the things that are said about what is and what isn''t mined out.

 

[MJO]

Hi Joe.

I do love Andesine and Oregon sunstone. From what I have heard the Congo material is Andesine and the Chinese material is Red Laboradite. Andesine has a slightly lower R.I than the Red Laboradite. Both the chinese stones and Congo stones have a higher copper content than the Oregon Feldspars. A couple of years ago, I bought the rights to 2 claims of Oregon Sunstone after seeing some wonderful stones. No plans yet to develope the mine though and no idea what the colors are under the land. I heard that years ago colored stones were found there on the surface but they have long since been removed. The anthills are made with clear sunstone though.

Regards,
Maurice

 

[jszweda]

You have mining rights? That''s intersting.

I have heard that the sunstone is mined out, or at least was very close to that. Do you know if that is the case or not since you actually have mining rights to some plot of land for mining that? I am curious.

How does that work anyways when you buy rights to mine? How do you know if there is in fact anything there or anything to suggest that some material is there aside from the fact it has been mined in that area? For instance, I don''t think I could realisticlly sell someone mining rights to their backyard in Florida saying you have rights to whatever sapphires are there. Does that make sense? I guess that in a case like yours, you really have no idea what is or isn''t there, so is it almost pure speculation when you make an investment like that?

Since you bought up andesine, I have heard that there is a certain percentage of some other element or mineral in that for it to be considered andesine. I don''t know the particulars on that, and I was wondering if you could elaborate on that.

 

[colormyworld]

Hi Joe I have been hearing all kinds of stuff about red labradorite-anaesine.I would be interested to hear from some one who had been to the mine in the Conogo. I have read at the Pala gems site about Bill Larson getting some red labradorite- andesine from China Mongolia to be more precise. I think the Conogo story is a decoy. Best Regards Doug

 

[jszweda]

Hi Doug.

Long time no hear.

I wonder myself as I have heard some of those stories myself though different sources, or something of the like. I wonder myself how much of this is stories and then one vendor tells their customers, "Don''t listen to this story about this stuff coming from over there...blah blah blah".

I love how any given vendor will rag on someone else as part of their marketing bit, and then the person doing the ragging does it because what they have is either not as good as the other guy''s stuff, or they can''t get it, or they just want to make a sale. I wouldn''t be suprised if any one of those sources be it Mongolia, the Congo, etc. is a story.

Stuff like that reminds me the whole spessertite vs. mandarin dilema, in which I talked to a GG about all of that. This may be one of those marketing schemes, and either way someone is making out on that andesine if it is in fact that from Mongolia, or China, etc. The price has gone up on it, so if they have it...hey! LOL

 

[colormyworld]

Yeah gotta agree with you there about vendors raggin on each others wares.
Guess that is part of this biz.

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 1/14/2006 5:59:14 PM
Author: jszweda


Stuff like that reminds me the whole spessertite vs. mandarin dilema, in which I talked to a GG about all of that. This may be one of those marketing schemes...

Would you mind sharing what the GG told you about the "spesertite vs. mandarin dilemma?" I''m just curious about what stories are going around.

Richard M.

 

[jszweda]

I have personally heard about 2 vendors in a local mall, one of which always was ragging on the other one. I heard about it, and I told the assistant manager there what he should do the next time they accuse him of selling bad merchandise. I told him, go over there, and ask them if they''re so great and what he has is so bad, how come they can''t get any better than an I1-I2 diamond, and they have the nerve to rag on them? This guy didn''t know that, untill I told him because I''ve seen and asked.

I also love how three vendors in particular, of whom you may know of have 3 different stories of andesine.

Vendor #1-We have a supplier who owns a mine, and he says this is not laboradite, it''s andesine. He won''t say where he got it from, and when we ask, he won''t confirm or deny a given origin. We can''t test it to say that it is or isn''t, so we''re going to call it red laboradite, and if it tests as andesine, fine. We have no reason to suspect that this guy is misleading us though because we have dealt with this guy for a long time, etc.

Vendor #2-This is andesine, and it''s from Mongolia,that congo stuff has been mined out . We also have some red laboradite, etc.

Vendor #3-This is red laboradite, not andesine. I don''t have any andesine. There are other vendors who say it''s andesine from Mongolia, or China and they shouldn''t be saying that. We don''t do that. You''ve got to be careful with what you hear from some of these other places, etc.

Vendor #3 loves to rag on a lot of other people. The other two aren''t so bad on that, but collectively you can hear 3 different stories about the same thing. Sometimes they all conincide, and sometimes they contradict each other so you don''t know which one to really believe.

I have also heard from one of those sources that the paler lavender colored Tanzanite is almost gone. I have heard stories that say they are having to go deeper and deepr into the mine, and at 1000 feet or so, they are not finding much of anything. Is it hype? Is it truth? Is it a little of both?

Who knows..

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 1/14/2006 7:24:15 PM
Author: jszweda
I have personally heard about 2 vendors in a local mall, etc.

If that response is to my question, I was asking about what you refer to as a "dilemma" about spessartite vs. mandarin. I''d like to hear what the GG told you about that.

Later maybe I can contribute a little to the andesine vs. labradorite discussion.

 

[colormyworld]

Hi Richard, Glad to see you still posting. I guess your "cover" wasn''t blown after all. I don''t know what Joe was told by the G.G. but from what I see it seems like any garnet with orange color is now called "mandrin" whether from Namimbia or not.
Do you have any info on the orgin of andesine- labradorite you can share. I''m all ears. Thanks Doug

 

[jszweda]

Hi Richard.

I''ll be more than happy to share with you what I have heard, what I have seen marketed from various places, and what I have heard from 3 or 4 GG''s. Now keep in mind, sometimes you can ask a GG their opinion on something, and while they are all based on facts, you could get some variating answers.

I am sure many of us have read or have heard that a mandarin garnet is exclusively from Namibia, and it''s the marketing name for a specific type of spessertite that comes only from there. Now, I have read the quote from some ranking figurehead at the GIA who originally dubbed those spessartites as mandarins stating that at the time of their discovery "in his opinion" were true mandarins. He goes on to state that there are other "reputable vendors" who refer to spessarties from other places as mandarins though.

There are many quotes online that don''t put the other part of that quote in their sales pitch. They just say if it''s not from Namibia, it''s not a real mandarin. I have talked to 2 or 3 GG''s who don''t agree with that statement and have a technical argument on that (which I will elaborate more on in this text).

I have also seen vendors tout their 4 carat mandarin garnet, and they use that Namibian argument and then show you what a spessertite is. They show you this hideous and included red spessertite and compare it to their mandarin. So to me, that''s a little deceptive.

Now, here is what the gemologists I have talked to say:

GG #1-In order for a spessartie to be a mandarin, there is a very specific color range in the GIA color book. If it is that particular color, it''s a mandarin. Otherwise, it''s a spessertite, and if it''s orange and not within that exact color range, it''s simply an orange spessertite. He sites though, a mere $200/carat price difference at a retail level between the two though. The other vendors selling orange spessartites that are deeper shades of orange aren''t using the GIA color book.

GG #2-As far as a mandarin being exclusiively from Namibia, that isn''t true. A spessertite though isn''t neccessarily a mandarin, but the term mandarin describes a spessertite with colors range of orange and red and brown tones. If it has too much red or too much brown in it due to the iron content, then it''s considered to be a spessartite.

GG#3-In this GG''s honest opinion, they don''t believe that a mandarin garnet has to come exclusively from Namibia to earn that classification. If a spessertite is yellowish orange to reddish orange, and assuming there isn''t more than maybe a moderate amount of brown tone the industry calls that a mandarin. If it has too much brown tone in it, or there is more red in it than orange, they don''t consider that to be a mandarin, but a spessertite. This GG goes on to state that they have seen specimens from Namibia, and due to the excessive brown tone in them, they considered them to be orange spessertite. They also go on to say that when that find in Namiba was discovered, it was the only known source of anything of that pure orange. Then the Nigerian find came about and people saw that it was cleaner and more brilliant material. So as time went on, the industry expanded the definition to include material like that of the Nigerian find.

This same GG #3 went on to say that personally they liked the material with some red overtones in it. They also said that when they appraise these things, they feel that the reddish overtones deserve a premium price per carat and are equally as worthy of the classification of "mandarin" as the other lighter shades are. They also state that the problem is that the iron which gives that red hue also brings with it some brown tone.

When I elaborated on what GG #2 said to GG #3, the third one stated that they were pretty much in agreement with what the second one said.

Now, here is where some more ragging comes in. GG #2 works for a vendor of mandarins by the definition given by GG #2 and #3. They start saying about don''t go buying on the internet, they''re not true mandarins. We have the true mandarins. The other ones aren''t.

So the same material by their own defintion from another vendor isn''t real?

Then there is this story that said something about the stuff from Namibia, forget it. The guy who works at one of the mines there says all that is coming from the ground is brown. The orange stuff? Forget it, it''s a thing of the past. I have heard that from another source who said a like thing.

I have read on GIA''s site that back in 2004, there was a find of spessertites in Pakistan. They said it''s very close in color to hessonite garnets, but I have heard that deposit is now mined out as well.

Now the latest is, it''s virtually extinct. The rough is getting harder and harder to find, blah blah blah. It''s getting harder to find but they keep selling it like no tommorow, and then suddenly they have a whole load of smaller ones. They sell those out, and then they don''t have anything smaller than 5 carats.

The same vendor says there are other "places" selling this material as mandarin-spessertite, and they shouldn''t be saying that or doing that, etc.

I have read online a womans story that said she bought 2 mandarins. She got one from a TV show (I can only guess as to which one it was), and then she bought one from this other guy who some of you are probably familiar with. She said the one from the other guy was less money and in her opinion, was better than the more highly priced one.

I have heard that the collectors in Japan have been buying those things up left and right. Supposedly though they call it "House of Rising Sun" there instead of mandarin garnet. I have also heard that typically, you will only find that stuff on a retail level in the NYC and surrounding area, and in Japan.

I have heard that in Germany, some markets are offering $2500/ct. for some of the larger clean stones. Weather that''s true or not, who knows.

From what I have seen, the orange material is more difficult to find from various online vendors than it may have been 6-12 months ago. I am not saying you can''t find it, but what I am saying is it doesn''t seem to be as common as it was before. I have seen the red spessertites from various places and in larger sizes too. I have seen the orange stuff in some smaller sizes when I have seen it. So there may be some truth to what is being said, but again...who knows.

I have heard that there are some not so reputable individuals selling material as mandarin garnet that is really orange zircon. So there are some people out there who are marketing something to be what it isn''t. I haven''t come across anyone like that, or know of anyone like that personally, but that is what I have heard.

If I come across anything else interesting, I''ll let you know.

 

[jszweda]

If you would like, I can retrieve the emails I sent to GG #2 and to GG #3 and edit out the names of the individuals, and I can post that so you can see what at least 2 of the 3 have said. I did condense some of it, but if you would like to read verbatim what was said, let me know.

I say I will edit the names out simply because I don''t want to be a name dropper or anything like that. Now if it was a scam artist, that would be another story. They deserve to be identified. That''s how I am.

I also might have to format the actual contents to post in this forum correctly, but thats the only thing I would edit. I don''t like to put words in other peoples mouths, and honestly my memory isn''t always 100% like it once was.

If anyone else wants me to email them off the list with that, let me know and I will oblige you the same.

 

[colormyworld]

I''ll take you up on that joe.

 

[MJO]

Hello Joe,

From what I have read only Namibian Spessertite with no iron content is true Mandarin garnet. If there is iron (which creates a reddish and brown color) it is Orange spessertite or tangarin garnet. The iron content (or lack of it) is what deterines if it is real mandarin.

As far as andesine and red laboradite goes, I have an original batch of stones I was told was andesine from the congo which I purchased in 2002 it has a significantly lower RI than the red andisine stones that were supposed to be from china. There has been alot of controversy over red andersine. I have even heard some say it can be heated to increase the clarity by dissolving the impurities in it. I wonder if it's actually man made since the mines are supposedly so secret. Hear is what is written by the owner of Gemfrance.com on another website:

"We have almost all the world stock of Congo Andesine in top red color and flawless quality. They are only some hundreds of stones still available in that quality. If you want to buy another size, shape of Congo Andesine that what we have on the website, contact us.
They are more andesine from Congo in more orange or yellowish color and with inclusions. I have not checked if those ones are Labradorite or Andesine. So you can also find these stones in lower quality in the gem market, but not with us.
When we was exhibiting in Tucson, in Marriott Hotel, with GLDA (come to visit us again on next year...) , they was also other dealers from China with "Andesine Sunstone". The quality and of course the price was lower. I have spoke with us and they have confirmed that the stones were coming from the same location in Congo. So... the stones were from Congo and only the dealers from China...

We don't take care of the lowest qualities. Our policy is "only the finest" or "la qualité tout simplement" in French.

Since 2002, no more stones were coming from Congo. Are they more? The location is not enough safe to go and check. I hope that more stones will come because they are not enough stones for the market. I’ll go as soon it will be OK.

A red feldspar is very rare and it was the first time that so clean and big red feldspars was discovered. Our biggest is 33ct!
Before, only the "Oregon Sunstone" (a labradorite) was known. But the stones from Ponderosa mine are not so deep red and so big.

Since, I have received the confirmation that there was an occurrence in China. Perhaps the stones that you can see in a TV channel are from China. I have received the information that "mine" in China is closed. No more stones available from that one.
It seems that one more "andesine mine" is now open. I'll have more information on next month. I am in contact with the owner of the "mine". Wait and see...
No doubt that if more andesine will come, that huge stone will be more popular and the market price will increase.

Regarding the andesine price, I cannot forget that I was certainly the first one dealer to sale the Paraiba Tourmaline in France. I have received in memo a big lot of nice stones in the top color, all clean, between 1 to 3ct each. Every body joking seeing that so strange color! I have sold nothing and return all the stones to the owner. All the customers, in retail and wholesale were saying that the price was too high! And it was only $100/ct. You know the price now!

We also have some nice green feldspars from Congo, with an "alexandrite effect" green / red. Those stones have been checked as Labradorite close from the boundary between andesine and Labradorite (SSEF - Switzerland).
The color of the Andesine from Congo and of the Oregon Sunstone is coming from Cupper. The Switzerland laboratory SSEF has found that there are about 20x more copper in the stones from Congo.


Feldspar is a mineralogical family:
Feldspars with potassium: Orthoclase, Sanidine, Microcline,

Plagioclases feldspars: Albite, Oligoclase, Andesine: Labradorite, Bytownite, Anorthite. They are separated by their chemistry from the height value of potassium and the high value of sodium: Albite (NaAlSi3O and l’Anorthite (CaAl2Si2O:

Albite (Na 100%, Ca 0%) AlSi3O8 90-100% Ab ; 0-10% An
Oligoclase (Na 90%,Ca 10%) Al1-2Si3-2O8 70-90% Ab ; 10-30% An
Andesine (Na 70%, Ca 30%) Al1-2Si3-2O8 50-70% Ab ; 30-50% An
Labradorite (Na 30%, Ca 70%) Al1-2Si3-2O8 30-50% Ab ; 70-50% An
Bytownite (Na 10%, Ca 90%) Al1-2Si3-2O8 10-30% Ab ; 70-90% An
Anorthite (Na 0%, Ca 100%) Al2Si2O8 0-10% Ab ; 90-100% An

The refractive index is not the same for all these feldspars. Usually, the boundary between Andesine and Labradorite is 1.55. But if you have a chemical analyse to check the rate of Na / Ca, some stones named Labradorite are andesine...
All our stones given to laboratories to have an official certificate have received the Andesine name (AGTA (USA) / AIGS (Thailand) / CCIP (France)...

I think that the name "sunstone" have not to be used for these stones from Congo... or China. Sunstone is a commercial name used for feldspar with spangling effect (aventurescence).
It is why we have never used "sunstone" for our stones. We have used only the scientist name. It is perhaps time to find a "commercial name"... A new name for these red feldspars with a rate of Na/Ca between 40 to 60. In that case they will be no discussion to know if it is a andesine or a labradorite (limit Na/Ca = 50). That limit given by human have not to disturb our eyes looking for beauty…
_________________
Dr Laurent SIKIRDJI
ICA member

Hardness: 6.5. IR: 1.551 / 1.560. Specific weight: 2.67"




Regards,
Maurice

 

[colormyworld]

Hi Maurice, I have have seen a lot of those green labradorite-andesine also being sold by a vendor on the television. I bought a red one at thier auction site last year a 12ct stone. I can't compare it in side by side in person but from what I have seen it is a very strong contender for what the vendor you speak of is selling. Just my 2cents Doug

 

[MJO]

Date: 1/14/2006 4:33:24 PM
Author: jszweda
You have mining rights? That's intersting.

I have heard that the sunstone is mined out, or at least was very close to that. Do you know if that is the case or not since you actually have mining rights to some plot of land for mining that? I am curious.

How does that work anyways when you buy rights to mine? How do you know if there is in fact anything there or anything to suggest that some material is there aside from the fact it has been mined in that area? For instance, I don't think I could realisticlly sell someone mining rights to their backyard in Florida saying you have rights to whatever sapphires are there. Does that make sense? I guess that in a case like yours, you really have no idea what is or isn't there, so is it almost pure speculation when you make an investment like that?

Since you bought up andesine, I have heard that there is a certain percentage of some other element or mineral in that for it to be considered andesine. I don't know the particulars on that, and I was wondering if you could elaborate on that.

Hello Again Joe,

Here is more info on Oregon Sunstone:

http://www.oregongeology.com/sub/quarpub/sunstones2.htm

http://www.highdesertgemsandminerals.com/html/spectrum_sunstone_mines.html


I bought the mining rights for the sunstone from Wayne Hartgraves, owner of the Hart Mountain General Store:

http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/oregon-sunstone.htm

He mines his other claim and sells his stones in his store. I have bought some wonderful stones from him. He told me he will never have time to mine the other claims he owns since he barely has time to dig in the one he is working on. He has been mining since 1959. He told me that he stacked the claims years ago and used to walk around and found nice color stones on it many years ago. I had another person I know, John Bailey, walk the area for me before I bought the rights. John is a custom faceter and owns some sunstone and opal claims. He said the area looks very promising since the anthills were several feet high in areas and were completely made of sunstone. He told me if I didn't buy the claims he would.

The largest Oregon Sunstone mine is the Dust Devil.

http://www.dustdevilmining.com/Default.asp

Maybe the oriental bunch is trying to buy that mine. The Oregon stones in deep red color are very rare and have a much lower copper content than the Congo and Chinese stones

 

[Richard M.]

Joe and Doug,

I do have some comments but dinner guests tonight make posting impossible. I''ll get my thoughts together in the morning unless something intervenes and post then. I spent a fascinating couple of hours in Tucson last year with the man who first mined, then named, Mandarin garnets. I also have Very strong opinions about the confusing use of trade names in gem merchandising.

Richard M.

 

[jszweda]

Doug,

Here is what I found in my archives. I apologize for the delay as I was doing some chemistry homework. Also for the record, I may have gotten confused on the color grade notation at the time, which was a mistake of my own. After looking at the emails, I may have gotten something a little off, but as I said my memory isn''t what it once was. You can email me off the list on that if you wish to. Revisions have been made as previously noted to maintain objectivity.

My email to GG #2:

I love and I love mandarin garnets. I have a question or at least a request for an opinion on what is called “mandarin” as there seems to be a lot of rhetoric about what is referred to as a true mandarin is not a true mandarin unless it comes from Namibia. I am just curious as to the opinions from someone like and/or or any other GG you might have on staff.

I know that some GIA figure head said that in his opinion, that the spessartites from Namibia are true mandarin garnets. However, I have also read from that same GIA newsletter that there are other vendors who sell spessartites from other places as mandarins. So given that, when someone says regardless of what color a stone is, it’s an orange spessartite and not a mandarin garnet. Personally, I say it’s like saying if a sapphire isn’t from India, it’s not a true sapphire it’s blue corundum. LOL.

I know the other night said spessartite, spessartine, mandarin, same thing. I have heard at least one other GG say, in the spessartites, if it’s more orange than it is red or yellow, then it meets the technical criteria of being a mandarin. I have seen one that was paler in shade than mine in which a GG told me it was too deep of a shade to be called a mandarin. It looked like a GIA 5/4 to me in the store under there lighting. So I really don’t know what gives on that. tone.>

Is this just a sales pitch or a case of someone who is noted with the GIA who was merely expressing an opinion that many have just take to a whole new level and manipulated it or what?

It just amazes me that despite the tangerine color of that fabulous 27ct + stone was showing last week, some will not consider it to be a mandarin but an “orange spessartite”. It’s the same chemical composition regardless of which country it came from, and like any other stone there is some variance in shade, so why the big debate? What is the industry accepted standard on these things and is there some confusion as to what the GIA says? Is this just a sales tactic so someone can say theirs is better than the next guys?

I ask as a hobbyist and not a professional jeweler. I am merely curious as to what the opinions are of someone formally trained in these things from I also am not trying in any way to say that anyone is misleading or misrepresenting anything to anyone either. I also am curious as to whatever that opinion/estimation equates to; what do you base that on?

Thanks in advance.

Below is the response from GG #2 or in conjuntion with another GG on staff

A stone is not determined to be mandarin based on whether or not it came out of Namibia. Your statement about a stone being a spessartite no matter its color being a false statement is also true. GIA terms are 5/4 for orange spessartite garnet; “mandarin garnet” is a trade term. When the term mandarin is used the person is describing the color of the stone based on what they think mandarin color is spessartite is basically the same stone but with brown and dark orange hues.

Now, this is what I wrote asking GG #3 on these things.

Hi Joe. Nice to hear from you. Answers follows:
>I have read the quote
>of some "well respected" GIA official who stated that in his opinion,
>the true mandarins come from Namibia, but other reputable places call
>other spessartites mandarin garnets.
The Namibia mine was the first, opening around 1990 and producing heavily
for about 3 years and then tapering off dramatically.
Mine of origin often gets top billing over subsequent mines with the same
material. However, if the subsequent mines produce material of equal or
better quality, this distinction usually disappears over time.
The Namibian product is indeed spectacular, with relatively more product
being of gem color than the Nigerian mine. However, a substantial amount of
the Nigerian material equals the Namibian, and in my opinion is deserving of
the "Mandarin" designation and pricing.
>I am hearing from various people that there
>is a technical definition for the term "mandarin" and that the GIA
>color book has a very specific range and such.
The designation of mandarin was originally "orange". Then the trade opened
it up a bit to include "slightly yellowish orange" & "slightly reddish
orange".
Now you have a lot of people starting to call "brownish orange" Mandarin as
well. In my opinion, the brown overtone knocks it out of the Mandarin
category.
The Mandarin garnet receives it''s vivid orange color from the trace element
manganese. The orange is modified with red when the trace element chromium
is present, and modified with brown when the trace element iron is present.
Iron is always considered a kind of "downer" on colored stones, because it
subdues the vividness of the host color, and often browns it out.
>I asked that sells these things what the deal is. They
>state that it doesn''t have to be from Namibia to be a "mandarin" and
>the term is used to describe a color of a given stone.
I would tend to agree with this if the color is truly a (#1) vivid orange,
or (#2) vivid orange with slight secondary overtones of yellow or red, with
red being preferred over yellow.
>I have read from
>other sources that there is a range of color being from peach to a
>tangerine
>color. According to this , and after another GG went back and
>forth with about spessartite vs. mandarin (which I found
>amusing), the elaborated a little more. The said that some
>mandarins are darker than others, and that there is some variance in
>shades.

I would tend to agree with that.

>He said that some of the deeper colored ones they refer to as dark
>mandarins.

As long as they''re not dark from a brown overtone.

>He said the difference between a dark mandarin and a regular orange
>spessartite is the amount of brown hue in the stone. Is there any truth
>or validity to this?
Well, you have to keep in mind that a mandarin is a spessartite. So
correctly, a vivid orange would be considered "spessartite of the mandarin
variety".
But I know what he''s talking about. What seperates the "mandarin" category
from "regular" spessartite would usually be brown in the stone.
>I noticed that in your , you stated that the reddish or tangerine
>colors tend to bring a premium. This one said as far as the
>more yellowy orange ones vs. the deeper shades makes no difference in
>the list prices of these things. He said it was simply a matter of
>preference as to weather you preferred a more yellow stone or something
>deeper in shade. Do you agree with that as it relates to value of the
>stone?
No. The colors which bring the most are vivid orange, or vivid orange with
slight red overtone. Most dealers and connoisseurs of mandarin would
usually pay a little less for vivid orange with slight yellow overtone.
In the world of "warm" colored stones, red usually commands a premium over
yellow, while in the world of "cool" colored stones blue usually commands a
premium over green. There are exceptions, but that''s a pretty good rule of
thumb.
>Speaking of Namibia, I have seen two retailers online in NJ that have
>this material from Namibia. I have seen other specimens from the same
>country of origin; and I have seen material from Brazil and I have a
>piece that comes supposedly from Madagascar. I have seen some material
>from Namibia that looks no different than what I have, and some of it
>is comparable to stuff from Brazil or maybe even Nigeria. I have also
>seen this stuff from Namiba that to me looks like a piece of garbage.
>It''s not orange to me; it''s more like a peach color. Not only is it a
>peach color, it''s cloudy as hell. That stuff has no fire, and to me it
>looks like heavily included malaya garnet. However, the deeper colored
>stones from Namibia according to my local source are not "mandarin" by
>the GIA color book; so what gives?
It all depends on the amount of chromium versus iron content influencing the
manganese orange. If there''s a lot of iron producing brown overtone, then
the stone would not be considered "Mandarin" even if it''s from Namibia.
>I can only equate this logic to a person who would say if a sapphire
>came from Australia and was the same exact color as one from Sri Lanka;
>they might say it''s not a true sapphire-its blue corundum. From what I
>have seen on the price guides, unless it''s a Kashmir sapphire, it makes
>no difference. I can see why a Kashmir is worth so much more though. So
>in short, is this downplaying of this material a sales pitch? I hear
>some people as you say the reddish tangerine stuff gets a premium and
>others say the value declines considerably. Then someone else says the
>price guides say
>it doesn''t matter; it''s a matter of preference.
A lot of times the "reddish" color people are referring to is often "brown"
from iron versus "red" from chromium. That''s why there''s confusion. The
value would decline considerably from brown overtones, which some people
incorrectly interpret as reddish overtones. True (slight) red overtones
would usually be priced right along with vivid orange.

After reading this, forgive me if I forgot the part about chromium versus iron. As I said, my memory is not what it once was, hence why I offered to post the email. I don''t want to intentionally misquote someone from what they said.

 

[jszweda]

Hi Maurice.

I think it is best said if I simply stated, I know of you since I don''t personally know you. However, your reputation precedes you-I mean that in a good way. Would you mine if I messaged you in private? I would like to continue certain aspects of this chat, but I think it might be best off the list if you don''t mind.

I recall hearing from someone who said that the people you are refering to on the tourmaline said, "That price is a little high especially for a tourmaline."

So Oregon Sunstone is a trade name for red laboradite, yes? So there is a limit or range on the ratio of Na to Ca that determines if it is andesine or not. Correct?

I have seen this stuff on various networks, but not in person. I don''t own any, but obviously you could shed some insight on what I was speaking of. I was thinking of Tanzanite when I first posted this, but I can see how the same logic could apply to a number of other stones too.

 

[jszweda]

Richard,

I see where you''re coming from on the confusion and the frustration that goes with it. I am sure there are many a GG who feels the same way as you do as gemology is a science more than most people realize.

While I can remember what it was I wanted to ask, the "International Colored Stone Association" states that they consider a mandarin garnet to be a spessertite within a certain range of color. Do you think that their definition is too broad or inspecific? If memory serves me correctly, they state it as being from a peach color to a redish orange color. I can''t find anything that takes into consideration the amount of tone into account, but I do recall one of the source I quoted as saying at some point past a moderate tone, they won''t call it a "mandarin".

Maurice,

I need to check out those links more that you gave me. I am just dead tired right now, but I want to read more about your info on laboradite and andesine. I am not by any means ignoring you...just tired. LOL

 

[MJO]

Date: 1/15/2006 1:16:15 AM
Author: jszweda
Hi Maurice.

I think it is best said if I simply stated, I know of you since I don''t personally know you. However, your reputation precedes you-I mean that in a good way. Would you mine if I messaged you in private? I would like to continue certain aspects of this chat, but I think it might be best off the list if you don''t mind.

I recall hearing from someone who said that the people you are refering to on the tourmaline said, ''That price is a little high especially for a tourmaline.''

So Oregon Sunstone is a trade name for red laboradite, yes? So there is a limit or range on the ratio of Na to Ca that determines if it is andesine or not. Correct?

I have seen this stuff on various networks, but not in person. I don''t own any, but obviously you could shed some insight on what I was speaking of. I was thinking of Tanzanite when I first posted this, but I can see how the same logic could apply to a number of other stones too.

Hi Joe,

No problem on sending me a private message or email. I don''t recall which tourmalline you are referring to right now.

Oregon sunstone is the trade name for gemquality feldspar of any color from Oregon. Red Laboradite is what they call all red laboradite from other sources. Yes there is a ratio of Na to Ca that determines andesine and red laboradite.

I think you are right, Tanzanite is the most appropiate for this type of manipulation.

Regards,
Maurice

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 1/14/2006 8:10:45 PM
Author: jszweda
I am sure many of us have read or have heard that a mandarin garnet is exclusively from Namibia, and it''s the marketing name for a specific type of spessertite that comes only from there. Now, I have read the quote from some ranking figurehead at the GIA who originally dubbed those spessartites as mandarins stating that at the time of their discovery ''in his opinion'' were true mandarins. He goes on to state that there are other ''reputable vendors'' who refer to spessarties from other places as mandarins though.

Hi Joe and All,

Garnet from any location in the world or outer space that has the basic chemical formula Mn3Al2(SI04)3 is classified in the spessartite species. Minerals are divided into species and varieties. These are scientific classifications, just as living creatures are divided into order, phyla, species, etc. Any other names are non-official trade-names.

The Commission on New Minerals and Mineral Names (CNMMN) of the International Mineralogical Association (IMA) was established in 1959 for the purpose of controlling the introduction of new minerals and mineral names, and of rationalizing mineral nomenclature. Many minerals had been named before 1959, of course, and that’s what the ‘rationalizing’ part means: putting everything into rational order.

No similar organization exists in gemology, which is essentially a subdivision of mineralogy. Since most gems are minerals, nomenclature agreed to by the CNMMN determines many gem names. That’s why we have gem names that are really mineral names, like pezzottaite, clinohumite, chrome diopside, jeremejevite, etc.

But the needs and aims of mineralogy and gemology are overwhelmingly different. Mineralogists get their scholarly jollies from putting together such things as complete collections of phosphate minerals from all over the world, like ludiamite, wavellite, etc. That’s a pleasant, educational and sometimes very profitable thing to do. That collection would include items like turquoise, also of interest to gem fanciers. (I’d strongly recommend that gem people gain a better understanding of mineralogy in order to really understand what gems are and how they form.) But gemology is basically about the world of commerce as well as beauty, intrigue and ‘romancing the stone.’ And how the heck can you ‘romance’ something with a name like spessartite?

You associate its popular trade name with something the broad public can easily understand, that’s how. I don’t know where mandarin oranges got their name – I think they were originally grown in China – but they sure are orange! And that gets us back to spessartite.

This garnet species was considered beautiful but very rare until the 1990s. Mineralogists named it for the Spessart District in Bavaria where it was first found and described. There were some other sources but the very few gem-quality stones came mainly from the U.S. and Brazil. In 1991 an Israeli miner-geologist learned of deposits of very high quality gem-grade spessartite in Namibia. He obtained mining rights and partnered with a firm that would cut and market the gems.

Because these stones were a very lovely medium orange color (meaning they were close to being all manganese with little or no iron/almandine admixture) they first gave them the trade name of ‘Hollandine,’ a reference to the Dutch House of Orange. Since they were found near the Kunene River in Namibia they were also marketed as ‘Kunene Spessartite.’ It was later discovered there was already a mineral called Hollandine so the name Mandarin was chosen for the popular market.

Unexpectedly, large deposits of gem-grade spessartite were discovered just three years later in Nigeria. The quantity was so great the stone could be marketed for the first time to a broad consumer audience instead of just to collectors. So the promoters went to work. When I attended the Tucson Gem Show in 1999 I saw great quantities of Nigerian spessartite being sold as “Fanta garnet,” “Sunkist garnet,” ”Tangerine garnet, “Mandarin garnet” – anything orange!

About the same time a spessartite discovery in Pakistan was announced under the trade-name “Kashmirine.” It seems to have largely disappeared from the market although I’ve seen spessartite from the same general region marketed as “Tangerine garnet.”

To sum up, there’s no formal method of giving gems non-mineral names. Anyone who wants to can ‘trade-name’ a gem they’re selling. Because garnets are a very complicated group of minerals and occur in a huge color range, they’re particularly susceptible to that kind of marketing-by-color-association. The same basic garnet types can be sold under several different trade names, as in the case of spessartite. There are probably a few fraudulent operators but it’s probably just human nature combined with a little greed that most vendors want whatever stone they’re selling to have the same name as the top end of the market, so lots of copycatting goes on. And never underestimate the ignorance factor! Lots of gem-sellers, including some GGs, don’t know their posteriors from post-holes.

Other trade names I’ve seen for various garnet colors are ‘raspberry rhodolite’ – in fact, ‘rhodolite’ itself since there’s no universally accepted definition of what it truly is – ‘cranberry garnet,’ ‘anthill garnet,’ ‘grape garnet,’ (a legal trademark supposedly although the name is very widely used in trade), ‘indigo rhodolite,’ ‘maralambo garnet,’ ‘champagne garnet,’ ''imperial champagne garnet,'' ‘malaia garnet,’ ‘imperial malaia garnet,’ ‘rose malaia garnet,’ ‘merelani mint garnet,’ and on and on and on! Even Tsavorite (Tsavolite in Europe) are trade-names for green grossular garnet. Confusion reigns in the garnet marketplace!

Pronouncements by the GIA or anyone else aside, no one’s really keeping track of trade-names. While I''m adamantly against any sort of color-grading system (one color being ''better'' than another, which is pure subjective opinion), I''d strongly support a gem industry organization that took on the task of standardizing trade names so the consumer would have a clear idea of what they''re being offered. I would also support some kind of market report that tracked prices keyed to those regulated names. But back to spessartite.

Originally the Namibian producer tried to distinguish between his stones and spessartites from other locations but it was a losing battle. Garnet sold as ‘mandarin’ today may be orange to red-orange spessartite of any kind, and even inferior and much less expensive African hessonite (grossular) garnets, an entirely different species!

It may be that some gemologists are doing their best to remain consistent with the original mandarin name. The mandarins from Namibia are generally within a similar color range – light-toned pure orange – so logically those same colors from all locations could be called mandarin. And some believe Namibian stones are the only ''authentic'' mandarins.

Until very recently the iron-rich non-brownish red "aurora rose" hue position was considered the most valuable color in spessartite, and some dealers still value it highly. It''s described as a "fine, vivid intensity in the mid-tonal range." Darker colors with more almandine content (and thus more iron ) tend to have weak or dull intensity and more brown.

In a free market people can put any price they wish on an item they’re selling, so different prices for different colors of spessartite are for buyer to sort out in my opinion. I frequently put high prices on stones I’m not really anxious to sell. That’s the value I put on them personally no matter what the market may say. I’d feel bad if I sold them for less, and it has nothing to do with being greedy. If someone comes along who values the stone as much as I do, so be it. We both end up happy.

Anyhow, that’s my two-cents’ worth. I’m not a GG by the way. I’ve taken courses from the GIA and have spent many years studying other approaches to gemology like that of England’s Gem-A, authorities like Dr. William Hanneman, Visual Optics expert Alan Hodgkinson, and many others. I’m particularly interested in garnets and have been studying them quite intensively for the last 10 years. I vigorously defend my opinions but try to yield graciously (note I said ''try'') to superior arguments and don''t take myself all that seriously.

I jokingly call myself a “gg” (gonzo gemologist). My basic aim is to keep on learning, enjoy this fascinating world of gems and minerals, and be able to buy and sell gems with confidence -- which includes knowing when to call upon a real expert.

Richard M.

 

[MJO]

Hello Richard,

A very nice explaination. I can see that since there is no scientific basis (mineral classification) of mandarin garnet anyone call any orange garnet mandarin. I guess I just conform to the school that the first ones called this have the right to the name.

Regards,
Maurice

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 1/16/2006 11:46:00 AM
Author: MJO

I guess I just conform to the school that the first ones called this have the right to the name.

Maurice

Thanks Maurice. I agree with you but this isn''t a perfect world, especially in a fiercely competitive business environment. If you legally trademark a name you have some recourse but you have to defend it in court or lose the right to it. Only the richest companies can afford the large legal staffs required to locate violators and threaten them with prosecution.

For instance, Argylle Diamonds (or one of its subsidiaries) has trademarked the words "Champagne diamonds (TM)." I have very strong doubts even Argylle will bother to track down every commercial violator but I could be wrong. Most companies rely on the legal "fear factor" to keep violators in check.

Years ago when I worked in journalism I wrote a story describing how a person wore ''pancake makeup.'' Within a week I got a letter from a cosmetic company''s lawyers advising me that "Pancake" (TM) was a trademark and if I persisted in misusing it my paper would be sued. That''s the kind of legal due diligence required to maintain valuable marks like Scotch tape, Arm & Hammer baking soda, etc.

Regards,
Richard M.

 

[jszweda]

Maurice and Richard,

I have some other thoughts on that myself and will post more on that later on. I just have other stuff to do, but in short, I think while the standard for what one vendor names a stone will have a more precise criteria than the next although it may expand on what the original find was.

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 1/14/2006 9:05:25 PM
Author: MJO


When we was exhibiting in Tucson, in Marriott Hotel, with GLDA (come to visit us again on next year...) , they was also other dealers from China with ''Andesine Sunstone''. The quality and of course the price was lower. I have spoke with us and they have confirmed that the stones were coming from the same location in Congo. So... the stones were from Congo and only the dealers from China...

Well, the plot thickens....

I just received email notice that Pala International will host the owner of the Tibetan Sunstone(TM) mine at its booth in Tucson this year. It''s interesting to note the gem''s name has already been trademarked! Look out Oregon!

Says the announcement:

"Amazing reds, rare greens, and dazzling color-change stones will be on display and for sale. This is not your Oregon sunstone! Preview online now at http://www.tibetansunstone.com. Then, come prepared to take some home because you can buy direct from the mine owner!"

Richard M.

 

[nicky newark]

Take a look at www.tibetansunstone.com - Nick

 

[Richard M.]

Yeah, that''s the same link I posted -- but easier.

Richard M.