Spinel... excessive pricing or finally earning its due respect?

[musicloveranthony]

Nice folks too!

I'm embarrassed to consider how many stones I've bought from them over the years

 

[Autumn in New England]

I'm embarrassed to consider how many stones I've bought from them over the years

Oh really? That's awesome! Dan is so easy going too.

 

[musicloveranthony]

Oh really? That's awesome! Dan is so easy going too.

I usually work with Jeff. I message him which stone I'm interested in and he sends me a paypal request (with the frequent flyer discount) and ships it to my address they probably have memorized

 

[Autumn in New England]

I usually work with Jeff. I message him which stone I'm interested in and he sends me a paypal request (with the frequent flyer discount) and ships it to my address they probably have memorized

Nothing like having a trustworthy trader on speed dial.

I hope you'll share some of your acquisitions, if inclined!

 

[Dr_Diesel]

Oh don't be... they're fabulous! And I don't really see many around these days, especially precision cut. Here's the listing vid, it doesn't capture the pink and blue flashes of color, unfortunately. But this thing is like a disco ball in person. Nice folks too!

https://v.etsystatic.com/video/upload/ac_none,du_15,q_auto:good/JDS1988c_ggqaom.mp4

I emailed Jeff, and he said “You know that these Amethyst are quite dark right?”

How is the color in person? I know his cutting is pretty effective when it comes to maximizing brilliance.

Does it black out?

 

[Rfisher]

I emailed Jeff, and he said “You know that these Amethyst are quite dark right?”

I have a JD Uruguay Amethyst. 5.something ct.

I seem to think at one time they used to list medium, medium dark, dark
in their description. But no more. This ring a bell with anyone? I could be mistaken

Mine is dark, darker than I wanted, but it’s still pretty. I’m not smart enough to attach the video like @Autumn in New England did, but looks very very similar to hers.

@Sabina22 has what my target was/is, also JD, also Uruguayan.

 

[Autumn in New England]

I emailed Jeff, and he said “You know that these Amethyst are quite dark right?”

How is the color in person? I know his cutting is pretty effective when it comes to maximizing brilliance.

Does it black out?

Good question! This material is darker than any other variety of amethyst, but the payoff is incredible. So if you're used to Uruguayan amethyst, no, his stones are not overly dark. But if you're used to the heated Brazilian or African material, this is going to be a lot deeper in tone. Amethyst, as you know, is often heated specifically to lighten it. As a result of that process, you lose any pleochroism. That's why Uruguayan material is not treated. So you sort of have to love the darker body tone to appreciate this stone. That being said, to answer your question as to whether it ever blacks out... in the middle of the room with no lighting, sure. But with any type of light source (direct or indirect sun or artificial lighting), you're treated to a delightful kaleidoscope of glittering blues and pinks. If you need me to take any particular pix or vids, let me know!

 

[Dr_Diesel]

Good question! This material is darker than any other variety of amethyst, but the payoff is incredible. So if you're used to Uruguayan amethyst, no, his stones are not overly dark. But if you're used to the heated Brazilian or African material, this is going to be a lot deeper in tone. Amethyst, as you know, is often heated specifically to lighten it. As a result of that process, you lose any pleochroism. That's why Uruguayan material is not treated. So you sort of have to love the darker body tone to appreciate this stone. That being said, to answer your question as to whether it ever blacks out... in the middle of the room with no lighting, sure. But with any type of light source (direct or indirect sun or artificial lighting), you're treated to a delightful kaleidoscope of glittering blues and pinks. If you need me to take any particular pix or vids, let me know!

Thanks for the tip! I just received the 2.44ct cushion…and it’s gorgeous!!!

 

[Dr_Diesel]

On another note, I have a confession to make: I’m come to terms with the fact that I’m just not all that fond of red, pink or even “Jedi” Spinel.

I have had a lot of the material pass through my hands over the last 25 years or so, and I always wind up getting rid of it.

Why? The color shift that occurs in “bad” lighting like LED or CFL drives me nuts.

In some cases it can be very subtle, but even the faintest hint of that undesirable orangey hue totally kills it for me.

Some stones definitely hold their color better than others. Nevertheless, after handling thousands upon thousands of top-color red & pink spinel from Mogok, Manson, Namya, Tajikistan and Vietnam, I can confidently say that they ALL exhibit this color shift to some degree - with ONE exception: The deep royal reds that lack fluorescence (which I have come to prefer for that very reason).

The more vibrant reds and pinks are undeniably spectacular in sunlight.

Nevertheless, every time I see even a faint suggestion of that desaturated orangey hue, it completely turns me off.

For decades, I searched for vibrant (“Jedi”) red & pink spinel that didn’t do this. I did find some top stones that only showed a minimal shift, but it was still enough to dampen my enthusiasm.

I know many people say that it happens with all red stones, but it’s simply not true. I have had several rubies and pink sapphires and they all show desirable color in every possible kind of lighting.

Sure, they can go a little more red or pink or purple or magenta depending on the light, but the never get that desaturated orangey cast that just completely turns me off.

It has taken me a long time to admit this to myself because I so love red & pink spinel in sunlight…but over time, I just can’t deal with the shiftiness. It creates too much internal conflict in me.

It’s like I’m always aware that the “ugly” hue is going to show up eventually and so I’m constantly aware of it (and even looking for it) whether it’s immediately present or not - and that ruins things for me.

So Im always internally debating about whether or not I “actually” like the material or not because of its two faces: One wows me, the other makes me cringe.

Weird? Perhaps. But that’s how it affects me.

I have a hard time fully enjoying stones that only show a desirable color in certain lighting conditions.

I don’t mind when deep-toned stones go dark in low lighting.

I do mind when the hue shifts to something that I find decidedly unattractive.

Does anyone else feel this way about red & pink spinel?

Looking back, this color shift phenomenon has always made me go cold, as far as I can remember - even when this material was dirt cheap.

Now that it has become so absurdly expensive, I find that I’m just completely of over it. I think it’s been waaaay over-hyped.

What do you guys think?

 

[Dr_Diesel]

***Just to be clear, my intent here is not to bash Spinel.

I’m simply expressing my feelings about a certain trait that is inherent to this material.

I have two red spinel rings, a (loose) super neon 0.80ct Mansin “Jedi” and a lovely 0.89ct bubblegum pink Mahenge spinel.

They are all amazing stones that I love…

…and yet, the color shift thing still bugs me.

It is, IMO, the only undesirable quality of these otherwise spectacular, fiery gemstones.

In any case, here are my 2 red spinel rings:

 

[Autumn in New England]

Richard Hughes talked about this very phenomenon when comparing red spinel and ruby. The former, especially when the tone is medium and saturation is vivid (sometimes referred to as "jedi"), undeniably looks spectacular in daylight. In fact, it can even maybe kick a ruby's arse in that respect. However, it does tend to do "that thing" in artificial lighting. I'm not sure I would call it a shift, per se, but it does seem to lose something no matter the quality. Ruby does not do this. Since I only evaluate my gems in diffuse/indirect sunlight, it doesn't bother me. This is how labs grade gems (roughly around 5500k). And after all, our cavemen ancestors wouldn't have used incandescent lighting to view their rocks. Not sure why I always go back to that, but it just feels right. I personally don't care for the "noble red" spinels with darker tones, but I can see why some do. Anyway, just my two beans! An astute observation on your belalf.

 

[CBianco]

I can understand exactly what @Dr_Diesel is referring to, and although I am much less experienced, I'd like to share some of my own observations/photos of my jedis in different lighting in regards to this phenomenon.

I had my egg shaped jedi recut a while back (not sure if I shared that) and the color under warm lighting changed drastically for some reason. It is much sharper now and better performing especially under artificial and direct lighting.

Before recut, warm LED. It has that salmon hue


After recut, also warm LED. It is now redder under the same light, not sure why lol but it's awesome!


Here are my rings under an incandescent light bulb

https://imgur.com/a/F7kBPS6

You can see how the pink sapphires on the paraiba ring stays pink while the jedi in the middle is very red, while the jedi on the left takes a salmon ish hue.

In daylight it is a whole different story though, where the pink sapphires pales in comparison, and they were sold as vibrant/neon bright (egg shaped is pre recut here)


In daylight LED both jedis are hot pink.

In natural daylight, the egg shaped one ranges from hot pink to reddish pink to red depending on lighting situation, as natural light also has huge variances. My purple garnet says hi!




The least flattering I've ever seen my rings were in outdated and awful fluorescent lighting in places such as the DMV, where it takes a more salmon/orangish hue although I wouldn't condsider it unattractive. It is not desaturated, just takes on a slightly different hue. I don't have any pictures unfortunately. It doesn't bother me though as that isn't my day to day environment.

Another small jedi that I have since sold, had that orangish/salmon hue in warm LED as well, but it sparkled like crazy so because of that is wasn't unattractive (to me atleast). Like it was on fire!


I think it all comes down to personal preference and how much shift in hue one can tolerate. I do notice however most pink spinels are warmer in hue than pink sapphires. Although I don't think I've seen a top quality ruby/pink sapphire in person yet, I trust that they keep color better in warmer lighting. However their prices are absurd and completely of reach, although neon spinels are getting up there too.

Bonus because I just had to, sunlight!

 

[Avondale]

I was just about to say we need photos to show what everyone’s talking about and here comes @CBianco and saves the day.

 

[Autumn in New England]

This photo... I... I can't...

 

[Dr_Diesel]

@Autumn in New England & @CBianco

THANK YOU!!!! Your perspectives are so reliably thoughtful and thorough! It’s quite amazing, really.

Here we are in a casual discussion on an informal forum, and you guys are citing references, cataloging photos in different lighting environments and offering throughly insightful (and rather extensive) reflections on the topic.

It's as astonishing as it is valuable!

Bravo!!!

… And on a very personal note, thank you. That helps put things into perspective for me.

BTW, @CBianco : your photography is as stunning as your gorgeous collection of rings. Every time I see them it reminds me of why this material is so special.

I think I just have a very weird psychological quirk related to that feint salmon color.
It definitely seems to be “me” issue than a spinel issue

 

[Dr_Diesel]

I'm swooning all over again

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

I alway feel for the price one might as well buy a sapphire.

What baffles me the most is blue spinels. I understand it from a collectors perspective (owning a stone that is a different species) but from a jewellery perspective I don’t see the point. Just get a sapphire! It’s tougher!

 

[CBianco]

@Autumn in New England & @CBianco

THANK YOU!!!! Your perspectives are so reliably thoughtful and thorough! It’s quite amazing, really.

Here we are in a casual discussion on an informal forum, and you guys are citing references, cataloging photos in different lighting environments and offering throughly insightful (and rather extensive) reflections on the topic.

It's as astonishing as it is valuable!

Bravo!!!

… And on a very personal note, thank you. That helps put things into perspective for me.

BTW, @CBianco : your photography is as stunning as your gorgeous collection of rings. Every time I see them it reminds me of why this material is so special.

I think I just have a very weird psychological quirk related to that feint salmon color.
It definitely seems to be “me” issue than a spinel issue

Thank you! We are all very passionate about gems, and for me personally, spinels!

I think it's a good summerize for anyone that's getting into or interested in colored gemstones, that practically all gems will shift somewhat in different lighting. Whether that shift is attractive or not is a whole other topic, which there are many factors involved. Heck just turn yourself around 90 and then 180 degrees, the gem will most likely look different due to change of direction of lighting.

And don't worry, we all have some weird quirks when it comes to colors I guess, for me it's the unsaturated peach colors

 

[Dr_Diesel]

I alway feel for the price one might as well buy a sapphire.

What baffles me the most is blue spinels. I understand it from a collectors perspective (owning a stone that is a different species) but from a jewellery perspective I don’t see the point. Just get a sapphire! It’s tougher!

I am of a similar mindset on this topic. I've actually scratched up quite a few spinel rings over the years - but it never happens with corundum.

The color of the truly neon cobalt blues is undeniably special, but I wouldn't even considering paying the $20,000+/ct prices that they command these days.

There is however, some quite spectacular lab-created cobalt spinel out there...that happens to go for about $30/ct in the Bangkok Jewelry Trade Center.

If the urge to own a neon cobalt blue ever becomes impossible to resist, I will likely just head over there and buy myself a 10 ct lab-grown cushion for $300 to satisfy the craving

The higher prices go on colored stones, the more appealing lab-grown materials become! There certainly is a special allure to natural stones. It's just getting to a point where, even if I could afford some of the astronomically expensive stones we see these days, I don't know that I would even want to. Price-gouging is a major turn-off.

....though that could conceivably change should I wake up one morning and discover that my accounts suddenly sprout a half-dozen more zeroes behind them

On a side-note, over the past several years, I've started tracking all of my gemstone and jewelry expenditures in a separate "account" in Quicken....right next to the ones that track my retirement accounts. Boy, does it add up over time! Whenever I am considering a new purchase and need a reality check, I just look at the total I've spent over the years and imagine what things would look like had I invested that money instead. That strategy REALLY helps me keep things in perspective and decide how much I actually "need" my next prospective purchase

 

[Autumn in New England]

I alway feel for the price one might as well buy a sapphire.

What baffles me the most is blue spinels. I understand it from a collectors perspective (owning a stone that is a different species) but from a jewellery perspective I don’t see the point. Just get a sapphire! It’s tougher!

I feel the same way about blue spinel, and I own one! You'd better reeeally love spinel and the rarity of fine cobalts in general. Otherwise, sapphire wins every time in my book.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

Anyone have any examples of beautiful blue spinels to post? I haven’t seen even flattering pictures of nice ones.

A while back PSer @icy_jade posted this spectacular sapphire. I’ve yet to see any blue spinel match it for all the money they allegedly demand.

 

[LunaIzzy]

Time to collect spinels…

 

[Dr_Diesel]

Anyone have any examples of beautiful blue spinels to post? I haven’t seen even flattering pictures of nice ones.

A while back PSer @icy_jade posted this spectacular sapphire. I’ve yet to see any blue spinel match it for all the money they allegedly demand.

I’ve seen them in person…and they can’t even touch that Kashmir blue.

It’s a different category, but still pales in my eyes.

 

[Dr_Diesel]

Time to collect spinels…

I think that time was 10-20 years ago.

 

[Autumn in New England]

Anyone have any examples of beautiful blue spinels to post? I haven’t seen even flattering pictures of nice ones.

The truly neon cobalt material is often so small, they don't even bother to facet it... I suppose I can see collecting small specimens if you're into that type of thing. But I told Inken, what am I going to do with breadcrumbs? I think my 2.6ct. is about as good as you can expect from that size. Those who buy blue spinel do so for the love of the gem and its rarity. Otherwise, don't bother and go get yourself some better color with Al2O3!

 

[Autumn in New England]

A while back PSer @icy_jade posted this spectacular sapphire. I’ve yet to see any blue spinel match it for all the money they allegedly demand.

Burmese material can show those impossibly blue kashmir hues too! The pricing is much better, but again, some folks love the prestige of certain origins. I've also seen Mozambican rubies that match and even rival Burmese material (that tends to be quite vivid but also pink), but they certainly don't command the same prices.

 

[Dr_Diesel]

I’ve seen them in person…and they can’t even touch that Kashmir blue.

It’s a different category, but still pales in my eyes.

I saw this one in person.

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

It was more impressive than the video, but this side-by-side comparison speaks for itself.



…of course, that Kashmir sapphire’s price tag is likely more money than most of will even see in a single lifetime

…not that $19k/ct on that 0.78 cobalt blue ($14820 for the stone) is a more reasonable purchase by any stretch.

I do think it would make for a cute little ring if the price tag were under $500 :p

 

[Dr_Diesel]

Burmese material can show those impossibly blue kashmir hues too! The pricing is much better, but again, some folks love the prestige of certain origins. I've also seen Mozambican rubies that match and even rival Burmese material (that tends to be quite vivid but also pink), but they certainly don't command the same prices.

There is some nice Madagascar material out there too. I bought this one 20 years ago (2.18ct, no heat). It’s not the same as the top 0.01% of Kashmir or Burmese material, but it’s frankly better than a lot of the sapphires I’ve seen from either of the former locations:

 

[Autumn in New England]

I saw this one in person.

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

It was more impressive than the video, but this side-by-side comparison speaks for itself.



…of course, that Kashmir sapphire’s price tag is likely more money than most of will even see in a single lifetime

…not that $19k/ct on that 0.78 cobalt blue ($14820 for the stone) is a more reasonable purchase by any stretch.

I do think it would make for a cute little ring if the price tag were under $500 :p

That's really big for a true neon cobalt! Decent cutting too!! Was it as vivid in person? I find so many look phenomenal in photos, but disappoint in person. They may still be a nice blue, but not quite neon.

 

[Autumn in New England]

There is some nice Madagascar material out there too. I bought this one 20 years ago (2.18ct, no heat). It’s not the same as the top 0.01% of Kashmir or Burmese material, but it’s frankly better than a lot of the sapphires I’ve seen from either of the former locations:

Yeah.... ah that's stunning. I'm glad you mentioned Madagascar. Remember the big scandal a few years back where some of the major labs were certifying the newer stones coming out of Madagascar as Kashmir? That's how fine the color was/is. It wasn't until they were able to isolate very specific inclusion patterns/materials in the Madagascan stones that they were able to differentiate them. Inken and I were just discussing this!