The Child Man ... why men are marrying later or not at all

[decodelighted]

Thought this article would be of interest to some of the LIWs.

Some quotes:

Consider: In 1970, 69 percent of 25-year-old and 85 percent of 30-year-old white men were married; in 2000, only 33 percent and 58 percent were, respectively. And the percentage of young guys tying the knot is declining as you read this. Census Bureau data show that the median age of marriage among men rose from 26.8 in 2000 to 27.5 in 2006 – a dramatic demographic shift for such a short time period.

For the problem with child-men is that they''re not very promising husbands and fathers. They suffer from a proverbial "fear of commitment," another way of saying that they can''t stand to think of themselves as permanently attached to one woman. Sure, they have girlfriends; many are even willing to move in with them. But cohabiting can be just another Peter Pan delaying tactic. Women tend to see cohabiting as a potential path to marriage; men view it as another place to hang out or, as Barbara Dafoe Whitehead observes in Why There Are No Good Men Left, a way to "get the benefits of a wife without shouldering the reciprocal obligations of a husband."

 

[peridot83]

While I'm sure the child man exists (and i have met my share), I have some serious problems with this article:

1. It's not just men who are not getting married, marriage is in a general rate of decline. With less and less social stigma on having sex and living together before marriage, most are getting married only to give legitimacy to their children and to own a home.

2. The average age of marriage is finally reaching the same age as it was before the baby-boomer generation. Think about Jane Austen novels, or even look at census data in the 1920s or 30s. The median age to get married was 24.6 for men and 21.6 for women. By contrast, in 1956 it was 22.5 for men and 20.5 for women.

3. I think the main reason that people are getting married at later ages, is it just takes longer to "get on your feet" by todays standards than it did previously. Most won't get married until after college so that puts the earliest age at about 22 to 23, and many don't see a REASON to get married until they want to either:
a. own a home
b. or have children

Which means having a strong financial situation and savings, which will take you a few years right after college: i.e. until 26 or 27.

I honestly don't see many of the men in my circles (i.e. college graduates) who have a "Frat-boy forever" mentality. A large number crave a significant other because they lack companionship (move to a new town for a job, and boom no "guys" to hang out with). Even for those who don't, they generally see themselves settling down and finding someone in their early 30s mainly because they are currently obsessed with career and working on their own self-image.

The main problems I see in those aged 22-26 is many are in long distance relationships (because now that both men & women want a successful career they often end up in different places after college) or have trouble even finding people they want to date unless they're in graduate school.

 

[Mara]

"Women tend to see cohabiting as a potential path to marriage; men view it as another place to hang out or, as Barbara Dafoe Whitehead observes in Why There Are No Good Men Left, a way to "get the benefits of a wife without shouldering the reciprocal obligations of a husband."

Oh Snap! Kinda harsh. Can''t say I totally disagree that men take a lot longer to mature nowadays unless some sort of harder life lesson helps them along.

''another place to hang out''...HAH!

 

[MoonWater]

Not that I read the article, I''m about pooped with the reading. But wouldn''t another factor (probably mentioned in the article, I should shut up now) be that people are living longer as well? Not to mention women that put their careers first and don''t look to marriage and babies as their ultimate goal in life. It can''t just be the guys.

Or, maybe too many of these child men are off playing video games and aren''t paying enough attention to potential wives.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 1/29/2008 11:56:49 PM
Author: Mara
'Women tend to see cohabiting as a potential path to marriage; men view it as another place to hang out or, as Barbara Dafoe Whitehead observes in Why There Are No Good Men Left, a way to 'get the benefits of a wife without shouldering the reciprocal obligations of a husband.'


Oh Snap! Kinda harsh. Can't say I totally disagree that men take a lot longer to mature nowadays unless some sort of harder life lesson helps them along.


'another place to hang out'...HAH!

Hahahaha Mara!!!!You're so cute!

I think that men are waiting until they are financially ready, their schooling is taking longer, and more undergraduate students going to grad school or professional school, it extends the time in which it takes to become financially stable. When we evaluate the rise in age difference for getting married, we have to also think about the society that the men are in, and consider personal factors, such as financial, religion, family pressure, relocation, education, built in evolutionary urge to impregnate as many women as possible, etc. I personally don't think that the rise is that significant considering that it used to take 4 years to get a bachelors degree, taking 12 hours a semester and now takes 6 years to graduate while still taking 12 hours a semester. I'm stopping now...

Blah...I've been spending too much time at school, around social science graduate students, and in WAY TOO MANY social science classes myself. I need recess. You know, with jungle gyms, slides and stuff...

Or maybe, just the weekend.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 1/30/2008 12:12:21 AM
Author: FrekeChild
more undergraduate students going to grad school or professional school

Is this true? Folks *in* graduate school might tend to think everyone else is doing it too but ... I dunno, I haven''t read that grad/prof. admissions were way up?? And if so ... since when ... the nineties? Kinda thought the gloss was off of law/med/edu and more people were *discouraged* about those paths than ever before. But I don''t know if I can find whatever articles gave me that idea ...

Ack, I feel so *old* today. Old & out of it.

 

[decodelighted]

*** UPDATE ***

Here''s where I found the article to begin with. The comments section is pretty funny & quite apt re: the state of dating in major metro areas. I say that as an NYC refugee.

 

[FrekeChild]

Eh, I just asked the BF (he''s one of the said social scientist-grad school homies) and he said yes, because we''re at war, and people are staying in school so they don''t have to go to war. But he also said that we''re in the middle of financial tough times, so it''s kind of a draw, and that he needs data and numbers before he''ll make that kind of assumption.

When I wrote that, I was referring to 50-90s. It''s my assumption that it has gone up because education seems to be the key in getting a more financially secure job. Technology is still going crazy and to keep up with that as well as everything else that''s going around, people just aren''t able to get along as well without more and more education to back them up.

This is why I''m back in school. My Associate''s degree wasn''t enough to get a decent job that could pay bills. BA here I come (but I''m DONE after that!)

 

[decodelighted]

Yeah ... I have no idea if grad admissions are going up/down/flat but now I''m kinda curious. Here in NY to teach school you need a grad degree which seems so strange to me (since I went to a *great* Virginia private school staffed with many BA/BS teachers).... *shrug*

 

[FrekeChild]

I think it''s something to look into. I mean, logically it makes sense that there would be more grad school entrants because there seems to be more and more companies who are looking for them. But...who knows? If you find anything, feel free to share!!! And I''ll do the same.

 

[Hera]

Wow, that''s a great article. I actually happen to know at least four child men in my life including my twin brother who happens to be my polar opposite. He believes that women and commitment are trying to keep him down and that women just want to stifle him and not let him have anymore fun. He loves the idea of sleeping with several different women (not ever telling them about each other). He usually has the girls believe they''re in a commited relationship with him. He just wants to do the things that he loves doing (including hanging out with the guys for sporting events and xbox). He doesn''t want to reciprocate. What''s funny is that he is 33 years old and definitely not in grad school.

The other close child man in my life is my ex boyfriend who is 40 and unmarried (no grad school here either). We dated for five years all the while he was one of those guys that told me the more I asked the longer it would take to be proposed to. I set a deadline for myself and got out. Ironically enough, my friends and I nick named him Peter Pan.

I''m so lucky I found my husband who was born and raised in Indiana. I got married young, but it was always my impression that there were a ton of commitment phobes in So Cal.

 

[peridot83]

I know currently that over 50% of undergraduates at most University of California schools plan to Immediately (within 2 yrs) enroll in graduate programs, and that some 80% plan to go back to graduate school within their lifetimes. I am sure that's a dramatic change from 30 years ago. I also know that law schools had a record amount of applicants in the last few years, that this is despite tons of new law schools popping up all over the place

I think practically all of my undergraduate friends plan if not already decided to get graduate degrees (though i guess we're a self-selective bunch).

Are there a group of guys out there that are commitment phobic, seem to have no direction, and feel no drive to contribute whether its to a relationship, a family, or to the community? Hells yes. But I don't think there's more of them than there ever were. They probably just no longer have their parents arranging marriages for them before the poor girl realizes what he truly is.

 

[anchor31]

Based on what I''m seeing around me, I do agree with this article. I''ve met quite a few "30-years-old teenagers" as I call them.

Another phenomenon that saddens me is how many women (25+) I meet who want to marry their man, but their man won''t marry them. They live together and everything, some even own homes together or have children together... But their man just won''t commit. It breaks my heart, because those women have told me they really want to get married, but they do everything their man wants (buy a home, etc.) and won''t insist on marriage because they don''t want to upset the so-called "status quo". Thing is, where I live, "common-law" has no legal standing whatsoever. So if one of them dies or becomes incapacited, guess who is next of kin and power of attorney? The parents. And if the parents are so inclined, they can make the "common-law" spouse''s life a living hell. A lot of people don''t know that, unfortunately. Since "common-law" does have a legal standing in the other provinces (does it in the States?), people just assume it does here.

 

[ladypirate]

We ended up talking a lot about this article last night, because I thought it was interesting (if rather one sided). It sort of related to a conversation we''d had a week or two ago about how it seems most young men are really not inclined to pursue women that much--when my sisters and I were in high school, for example, it was far more common for girls to ask guys to dances than vice versa.

Kris'' perspective was that whereas in the 50s men were raised to believe that they had to take care of women or at least be the primary breadwinner (because those women were going to be staying home, raising children, etc.), men nowadays are raised to see women as equals. To quote him: "I''m all for that--I think it''s great, but I also think that some men, like the ones you mentioned in that article, see that women are capable of doing it all for themselves now and don''t need them anymore so they figure that they can just do whatever they want for a while and not settle down." Granted, in his circle of friends, most are already married and a few are starting to have kids, so I don''t think he''s witnessed the phenomenon much.

Re: the education thing, I think it''s much more common to go to college now, period. This is sort of a separate rant, but I really don''t like that college (undergrad, that is), has become for all intents and purposes the new high school. While it used to be that college was required only for academic pursuits, now it is nearly impossible to get a job without a degree. Also, trade schools, apprenticeships, etc. seem to be looked down upon because they are not following that prescribed route.

That got a bit longer than I meant it to, but the basic gist of what I''m trying to say is that it''s not necessarily more common for grad school (which in a way is functioning the way that college in general used to), but it is a TON more common for undergrad. So the time it takes to finish schooling is certainly a factor. In a way, I think the culture of undergraduate school, at least in the US, contributes to both genders holding off on adulthood by putting off the working world for that much longer. Obviously, I''m not saying that everyone in college is immature or anything along those lines, and there are certainly people who work while putting themselves through school, but for many college students, it''s more of an excuse to drink a lot than it is to learn anything.

 

[Erin]

Around my old circle of friends (in central IL) sooooo many of them just aren''t getting married and it''s not because she doesn''t want to.
1. They have a child and she lives in his house and has no job of her own (I can think of 5 right off the bat that fit this category)
2. One or the other has children from a previous marriage and the other lives with all of them but has residence separate from there. Seriously I know 3.
3. The rent an apartment together and have been dating for over four years and nobody even asks about marriage anymore but everyone knows HE doesn''t want it.
4. They live together and he has proposed but continues to sleep with other women and perpetually hang with the guys - won''t set a wedding date.

Then there was my ex who claimed he didn''t want to get married because he doesn''t like being the center of attention.

This phenomenon used to be everywhere I looked!

 

[HollyS]

This whole discussion reminds me of my godson. He just moved to NYC to complete grad school for a degree in vocal performance. He wants to be a working singer/actor; well, he really wants to be a star, but he would settle on the chorus for now!

When he was in HS and through his early years of college, he dated one girl pretty exclusively, and they were certainly in love. One of the reasons they broke up was because she couldn't/wouldn't wait for all the *adult* things like marriage, kids, blah blah blah. So now, she is married to someone that is Mr. Good Enough, has the baby, the responsibility, etc. But, pines for my godson who is fancy free and living his dream. She didn't ever want the same dream; she just wanted him to abandon it for her. They both are only 26 years old.

Yes, men as a whole are a lot less likely to begin the *mature* part of their lives until they are a lot older these days. And why not? Society dictated to them in the 50's, 60's, and even 70's that they would become "responsible young men" by no later than age 21. Well, that's not being fair to them, now is it? We can have it all, but they can only have what we tell them to have? They don't get the opportunity to live their dream? Or maybe just try and find out what it is? Many men have seen that their fathers were dissatisfied with the way things turned out - - the *woulda coulda shoulda* syndrome. And, a lot of them also saw their parents' marriages fail because one or both parents were unhappy personally.

The real problem is women. It really doesn't matter how feminist we are, the majority of us are DNA wired to want to mate at a young age. Mating being the creation of a life with a partner -- not the physical act itself. So while the world has changed around us, our basic instincts and desires have not changed (for the vast majority of women, anyway).

That is why it is so important for women today to stop trying so hard to make each date be that potential mate! Or worse, get stuck in a relationship that has no chance of being anything other than *friends with benefits*. And there is some truth to the assumption that because we are giving him everything he wants (sex, companionshiip, housecleaning, and the occasional home-cooked meal), he will feel no need (or desire) to change the status quo. I'm not talking about people who have made a real commitment to each other without the ceremony; I'm talking about the "let's live together and see where this leads" crowd.

 

[mjso]

Date: 1/30/2008 10:45:19 AM
Author: HollyS

The real problem is women. It really doesn''t matter how feminist we are, the majority of us are DNA wired to want to mate at a young age. Mating being the creation of a life with a partner -- not the physical act itself. So while the world has changed around us, our basic instincts and desires have not changed (for the vast majority of women, anyway).

Obviously, the determination of "young age" is different for everyone, but this was a big factor for me. Two of my coworkers just got married and started having kids at 36. Both of them were concerned about being able to concieve, birth defects, miscarriages, etc. Not that if you have a baby younger it is automatically healthy, but the chances are a lot higher. It''s not like I''m in need of unconditional love and so I want to have a baby because it has to love its mother (or whatever the psychobabble theory is on troubled young girls who have children), but I want to have my child at a time before I have to worry about constant risks.

I''m 25 (almost 26) and will be 27 when I get married. I always wanted to have my first child around 28, and perhaps that wll happen. I want to be around as long as possible for the kid. And my FI is 28 now and will be 29 when we marry. Niether of us wanted to be older parents (it works fine for some, just not us). I want to be able to meet my grandkids and be a part of their lives.

Of course none of this is a given, even when you are young and have kids, but the chances are certainly higher. I think for men, they feel like they can have kids forever (which studies are saying isn''t always true, and that older fathers could be contributing to some issues with children these days as well), so to them the rush to settle down doesn''t exist.

My SO didn''t get the wedding bug until he went to a doctor who asked him if he had kids yet. When he said no, the doctor was sort of shocked and told hm that he''s not getting any younger, if he had a kid TODAY he would be x years old when the kid was y, etc. Granted, I had told him this many many times, but apparently the doctor was able to get it through his skull.

So, I don''t know if women are the "problem" as much as it isn''t their fault that biologically they have a much greater incentive to get married before their child bearing age has passed.

 

[ladypirate]

Date: 1/30/2008 10:45:19 AM
Author: HollyS
This whole discussion reminds me of my godson. He just moved to NYC to complete grad school for a degree in vocal performance. He wants to be a working singer/actor; well, he really wants to be a star, but he would settle on the chorus for now!


When he was in HS and through his early years of college, he dated one girl pretty exclusively, and they were certainly in love. One of the reasons they broke up was because she couldn't/wouldn't wait for all the *adult* things like marriage, kids, blah blah blah. So now, she is married to someone that is Mr. Good Enough, has the baby, the responsibility, etc. But, pines for my godson who is fancy free and living his dream. She didn't ever want the same dream; she just wanted him to abandon it for her. They both are only 26 years old.


Yes, men as a whole are a lot less likely to begin the *mature* part of their lives until they are a lot older these days. And why not? Society dictated to them in the 50's, 60's, and even 70's that they would become 'responsible young men' by no later than age 21. Well, that's not being fair to them, now is it? We can have it all, but they can only have what we tell them to have? They don't get the opportunity to live their dream? Or maybe just try and find out what it is? Many men have seen that their fathers were dissatisfied with the way things turned out - - the *woulda coulda shoulda* syndrome. And, a lot of them also saw their parents' marriages fail because one or both parents were unhappy personally.


The real problem is women. It really doesn't matter how feminist we are, the majority of us are DNA wired to want to mate at a young age. Mating being the creation of a life with a partner -- not the physical act itself. So while the world has changed around us, our basic instincts and desires have not changed (for the vast majority of women, anyway).


That is why it is so important for women today to stop trying so hard to make each date be that potential mate! Or worse, get stuck in a relationship that has no chance of being anything other than *friends with benefits*. And there is some truth to the assumption that because we are giving him everything he wants (sex, companionshiip, housecleaning, and the occasional home-cooked meal), he will feel no need (or desire) to change the status quo. I'm not talking about people who have made a real commitment to each other without the ceremony; I'm talking about the 'let's live together and see where this leads' crowd.

I don't think this article was referring to men who follow their dreams--it was referring to those who refuse to grow up. I know many people, men and women, who have gone off to do really interesting things at the expense of not settling down as early, and I would certainly not lump them in the same category as the ones in this article who work dead end jobs, sleep around, and play x-box on the weekends.

While I don't think it's right to blame it all on the men, as this article does, saying that the fault is all with the women is a bit one-sided as well. I'm not saying that men have to settle down at 21 or 25 or even 30. To me, settling down isn't really the point--if a guy wants to say single forever, more power to him. However, I think in many of these cases, it's not right of the man to string the woman along. Granted, she shouldn't be allowing that to happen, either, but if a man you trust says "yes, of course I want to marry you someday" and then someday never happens, that's dishonesty on his part.

Maybe it's more about both partners being upfront from the beginning. If a guy says "I just want sex", then at least the woman knows what she's getting into.

Also, I take issue with saying that women are the "problem" because they are biologically wired to start settling down earlier--why not say men are the "problem" because they're hard-wired to sleep around?

 

[HollyS]

mjso: You have a point about the biological clock ticking, but most women can expect to conceive w/o complications, birth defects, etc. well into their mid-thirties.

But the article was comparing young men today with their counterparts of yesteryear. Today''s guys feel they have more choices, just like women feel they can do it all. I don''t think anyone needs to be concerned about a guy who (maybe) hasn''t turned 27 yet! That''s still young, but perhaps you have to be close to 50 to feel that way!!

Yes, there are slackers out there. Hopefully everyone can recognize them, and steer clear. But, sometimes, reading some personal stories here on LIW, I get the feeling that there are quite a few young women trying hard to make it work with ''one of those'' guys.

 

[ladypirate]

Date: 1/30/2008 11:26:33 AM
Author: HollyS
mjso: You have a point about the biological clock ticking, but most women can expect to conceive w/o complications, birth defects, etc. well into their mid-thirties.


But the article was comparing young men today with their counterparts of yesteryear. Today's guys feel they have more choices, just like women feel they can do it all. I don't think anyone needs to be concerned about a guy who (maybe) hasn't turned 27 yet! That's still young, but perhaps you have to be close to 50 to feel that way!!


Yes, there are slackers out there. Hopefully everyone can recognize them, and steer clear. But, sometimes, reading some personal stories here on LIW, I get the feeling that there are quite a few young women trying hard to make it work with 'one of those' guys.

I certainly agree with you on the age thing--25 is actually the absolute YOUNGEST I'd ever consider getting married.

I guess part of what bothers me about this cultural shift is that it seems that not only do women feel like they can do it all, they feel pressured to. It just seems a little bit off to me that nowadays women are expected to be superwoman--have the career, the kids, the perfect house, the perfect marriage, the looks, etc., while men are kind of expected to be slackers because they don't have to do it anymore.

Granted, that's not the way it is around here and it's not the way my parents' marriage is at all (maybe I'm biased because I grew up around such an egalitarian relationship), but I have certainly seen it in some of my friends' relationships. I guess I feel that if women and men are going to be equal, that should mean TRUE equality, not the women having to overcompensate because the men aren't holding their end up.

 

[sunnyd]

I think it''s funny to hear everyone saying that you now NEED to go to grad school to get a good job. I went to college because my parents wanted me to, but I have a great job that has absolutely nothing to do with my degree! My circle of friends is a bit older than me (25-30), some of them got married at 20, one couple at 17(!), the others at 26 or so. I don''t think any of them went to college, and they make a lot more money than me! It''s probably different for different parts of the country I guess...

That was a random observation, and has really nothing to do with the article. Ha! It''s still early.

 

[Haven]

Date: 1/30/2008 11:26:33 AM
Author: HollyS
Yes, there are slackers out there. Hopefully everyone can recognize them, and steer clear. But, sometimes, reading some personal stories here on LIW, I get the feeling that there are quite a few young women trying hard to make it work with ''one of those'' guys.

I agree with this, Holly, and with your earlier post as well.

As for the article, I have to say I agree with a lot of that as well. I know a lot of men who are nearly 30, and several who are older, and they are definitely still living like adolescents. Frankly, all you need to do is go out to a bar or club in Chicago and you''ll see plenty of them for yourself. (Especially if you go to Rush and Division, or "The Viagra Triangle" as we call it.) I also see an enormous difference between young people who live in the city and those who live in the suburbs--suburbanites seem to marry much earlier than their city-dwelling counterparts. Which came first--the move to the suburbs or the desire to marry? I don''t know about that.

My own FI is 37 years old (almost 3, he was 34 when we met. When we first talked about marriage I asked him why he hadn''t married yet, and after he gave me the bs line about not finding the right girl yet he finally admitted that he was just plain immature for a long time. He has a graduate degree and a post-graduate certificate, so he certainly has a lot of education under his belt, but I don''t think that was the problem. I know a lot of graduate students who marry during school because that''s what you do if that''s your priority. I think my FI just took a bit longer to grow up. In fact, his mother passed away just a year and a half before we met, and he admits that that made him reevaluate his priorities and figure out what he really wanted to do with his life. So, perhaps it did take a big event to get him moving along toward being an adult.

 

[sandia_rose]

Date: 1/30/2008 11:13:38 AM
Author: ladypirate

I don't think this article was referring to men who follow their dreams--it was referring to those who refuse to grow up. I know many people, men and women, who have gone off to do really interesting things at the expense of not settling down as early, and I would certainly not lump them in the same category as the ones in this article who work dead end jobs, sleep around, and play x-box on the weekends.

I have met A LOT of men in my age group (late 30s/early 40s) who refuse to grow up. There have been too many aspects to this post for me to give thoughts on all, so I'll just address this one. My two cents....

Back when our grandparents were young, getting married was almost required. My grandmother married my grandfather when she was 27, and back then, that was OLD. She used to say that she was being choosy, and she got a lot of heat from people around her because of it. But then again, until the 60s and 70s, very few women had the option to get educations. In fact, my mom, who was marrying age in the mid-60s, told me when I was a teenager that she would have liked to go to school to become a lawyer (she loved a good, smart debate)....but back then, women were discouraged from being anything but wives, mothers, teachers or nurses. Many colleges wouldn't even allow a woman to attend! And the few women who did go to school only went with the understanding that the real purpose to going was to meet a man. Once a woman married and had children, it was not only expected but required that she become a stay-at-home and a housewife; the idea of a career was taboo, so getting an education was pointless. This thinking put my mother in a real bind when my father died and left her to support three kids with only a high school education (and back then, companies could deny jobs to women and mothers legally). Now, women have more options than ever before.

As to men, my thought on this is that, with more and more women in the workforce and with educations, men have less pressure to become breadwinners. A lot of people our parent's age resent the "old standards" and a lot of them that are divorced blame it on the fact that society forced them to settle down at an early age -- so they will pay for college educations that allow guys to party it up without having to work for it and also will allow the same guy to return home after college and play video games all day, as opposed to pushing him out of the nest and making him be self-sufficient. Hell, after our divorce, my then 49 year old ex-husband (who is a degreed engineer making over $50K and who had more than enough resources to buy his own place or get a rent) moved back into his parent's house and was welcomed with open arms! 10-15 years ago, this would have been humilitating for most men to do....yet in talking to other divorced women, I've since learned that he's not the only one!

And since the 60s, it's become more or less acceptable for women to be able to have the same sexual freedom as men have always had. My mom used to have a joke that explained the double standard of her generation: If women are supposed to be virgins until they get married, but men are allowed to "get experience," then who exactly are they getting the experience with?! My grandmother used to tell stories about how she refused to allow any man to do anything other than kiss her. She would repeatedly tell my grandfather, "I am not one of THOSE girls. If you want to sleep with me, then you can wait until you marry me." And he did, too! My grandmother snagged her hometown's gorgeous football star...who could have the pick of any woman in town. But, he wanted my grandmother and had to marry her to have her....and they were married 63 years, until he passed away!

Thanks to society and what we call "progress" and "equal rights," men really have no reason to grow up. I'm a progressive woman and am thankful for all of the rights that I, as a woman, have in this country. But I will also be the first to point out that I get PO'd at the society that created these Peter Pans and commitment-phobes.

Bridget in Connecticut.

 

[ladypirate]

Date: 1/30/2008 11:57:55 AM
Author: Haven
In fact, his mother passed away just a year and a half before we met, and he admits that that made him reevaluate his priorities and figure out what he really wanted to do with his life. So, perhaps it did take a big event to get him moving along toward being an adult.

I do wonder about this--Kris went through a bout with cancer a few years ago and he fully admits that that caused him to change a lot of things about the way he lived his life. Even though it was horrible and traumatic, he says it's one of the best things that ever happened to him because it made him realize that you only have so much time to live and you should make the most of it.

ETA: Bridget, good post! I consider myself a feminist (at least in my own definition of the word--I believe men and women should be treated equally), but a lot of what is happening societally in terms of gender roles seems like it's getting skewed in completely the wrong way.

 

[HollyS]

Date: 1/30/2008 12:24:26 PM
Author: sandia_rose

Date: 1/30/2008 11:13:38 AM
Author: ladypirate

I don''t think this article was referring to men who follow their dreams--it was referring to those who refuse to grow up. I know many people, men and women, who have gone off to do really interesting things at the expense of not settling down as early, and I would certainly not lump them in the same category as the ones in this article who work dead end jobs, sleep around, and play x-box on the weekends.

I have met A LOT of men in my age group (late 30s/early 40s) who refuse to grow up. There have been too many aspects to this post for me to give thoughts on all, so I''ll just address this one. My two cents....

Back when our grandparents were young, getting married was almost required. My grandmother married my grandfather when she was 27, and back then, that was OLD. She used to say that she was being choosy, and she got a lot of heat from people around her because of it. But then again, until the 60s and 70s, very few women had the option to get educations. In fact, my mom, who was marrying age in the mid-60s, told me when I was a teenager that she would have liked to go to school to become a lawyer (she loved a good, smart debate)....but back then, women were discouraged from being anything but wives, mothers, teachers or nurses. Many colleges wouldn''t even allow a woman to attend! And the few women who did go to school only went with the understanding that the real purpose to going was to meet a man. Once a woman married and had children, it was not only expected but required that she become a stay-at-home and a housewife; the idea of a career was taboo, so getting an education was pointless. This thinking put my mother in a real bind when my father died and left her to support three kids with only a high school education (and back then, companies could deny jobs to women and mothers legally). Now, women have more options than ever before.

As to men, my thought on this is that, with more and more women in the workforce and with educations, men have less pressure to become breadwinners. A lot of people our parent''s age resent the ''old standards'' and a lot of them that are divorced blame it on the fact that society forced them to settle down at an early age -- so they will pay for college educations that allow guys to party it up without having to work for it and also will allow the same guy to return home after college and play video games all day, as opposed to pushing him out of the nest and making him be self-sufficient. And since the 60s, it''s become more or less acceptable for women to be able to have the same sexual freedom as men have always had. My mom used to have a joke that explained the double standard of her generation: If women are supposed to be virgins until they get married, but men are allowed to ''get experience,'' then who exactly are they getting the experience with?! My grandmother used to tell stories about how she refused to allow any man to do anything other than kiss her. She would repeatedly tell my grandfather, ''I am not one of THOSE girls. If you want to sleep with me, then you can wait until you marry me.'' And he did, too! My grandmother snagged her hometown''s gorgeous football star...who could have the pick of any woman in town. But, he wanted my grandmother and had to marry her to have her....and they were married 63 years, until he passed away!

Thanks to society and what we call ''progress'' and ''equal rights,'' men really have no reason to grow up. I''m a progressive woman and am thankful for all of the rights that I, as a woman, have in this country. But I will also be the first to point out that I get PO''d at the society that created these Peter Pans and commitment-phobes.

Bridget in Connecticut.

Yup to that last paragraph. It is a two-edged sword. We want our cake and want to eat it too. Okay, I''m done with the cliches.

 

[ladypirate]

Date: 1/30/2008 12:29:20 PM
Author: HollyS

Date: 1/30/2008 12:24:26 PM

Author: sandia_rose

Thanks to society and what we call ''progress'' and ''equal rights,'' men really have no reason to grow up. I''m a progressive woman and am thankful for all of the rights that I, as a woman, have in this country. But I will also be the first to point out that I get PO''d at the society that created these Peter Pans and commitment-phobes.

Yup to that last paragraph. It is a two-edged sword. We want our cake and want to eat it too. Okay, I''m done with the cliches.

I also have to say that I hate that one of the by-products of the feminist movement has been that it is now almost impossible to get by on only one income. I don''t care who stays home with the kids--father or mother--but I think it''s terrible that the economy has become such that they have to raise themselves.

 

[decodelighted]

As far as women being "to blame" ... my theory is that its a bit of the "special snowflake" syndrome that dupes women into thinking marriage is inevitable in what seems to the rest of the people around them to be a dead-end relationship with one of these Peter Pan men, because they are so AWESOME.

They very well may be AWESOME but their AWESOMENESS alone isn''t going to grow one of these perpetual kids right up & down the aisle.

Seems to me it takes a lot of gals ONE of these dead-end relationships to wake up to the fact that their fairy tale ending ISN''T INEVITABLE. I know I''m guilty of it ... and I know there was a certain degree of youthful hubris attached to my delusions. And plain ol'' naivite.

The other (perhaps) applicable factor in the "special snowflake" syndrome ... is a woman''s SELF-focus. The tendency to judge the likelihood of a relationship working out based on what SHE contributes, how hard SHE tries, how "good" she is ... and NOT to take a close, hard look on what she is GETTING. What the guy is actually capable of, what he wants, what his actions SHOW he wants *despite* what he might say.

Obvs. the men think they''re "SS" too -- that someone thinner/hotter/richer/better breedin'' material is coming around the corner anytime and will OBVS want to marry them, because they are so, yup, AWESOME.

 

[gwendolyn]

TIME magazine published an article a couple of years ago that talked about people (of both genders) who, in the eyes of their parents, were "refusing to grow up." It dealt with kids who finish their undergrad degrees and move back home to get themselves financially ready to live life on their own. The parents saw it as the kids refusing the grow up because when the parents were that age, they didn't need to go back home and could get a good job that paid the rent or they could buy a house, etc. The article got into how, with college costing SO much more than it did back then (even if you figure in how inflation has changed the dollar over the decades), and how as ladypirate said, the bachelor's degree is basically needed for any old job, even if the pay is crap, so some jobs set themselves apart by requiring master's degree. So even more schooling, and even more debts!

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that ALL of that grown-up stuff is getting pushed back by a handful of years. Some people are Peter Pan types, but I'm not sure that's more of a trend now than it ever was; the two guys who come to my mind are friends of my parents, who are in their late 50's, who never grew up. My friends are almost all male, and they're all almost all married.

Another point that I know has been a factor in my thinking and in J's (as well as a few of my friends) is that we grew up (in high school, anyway) hearing about how common divorce was/is. One in four marriages, one in three, whatever it was--made some of my friends and I (don't know about anyone else) really think hard about marriage because we don't want to contribute to those statistics. Part of the reason I'm taking my time (not married and almost 30! Egads!) is because I am only getting married once: no divorce. J feels the same. Maybe other people feel the same way? Don't know, but it seems possible to me.



ETA: Here's the TIME article, dated from Jan. 2005, if anyone wants to read. It's long, but I know at the time I could identify with it, so maybe some of you might too: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1018089,00.html

 

[HollyS]

Date: 1/30/2008 1:06:55 PM
Author: decodelighted
As far as women being ''to blame'' ... my theory is that its a bit of the ''special snowflake'' syndrome that dupes women into thinking marriage is inevitable in what seems to the rest of the people around them to be a dead-end relationship with one of these Peter Pan men, because they are so AWESOME.

They very well may be AWESOME but their AWESOMENESS alone isn''t going to grow one of these perpetual kids right up & down the aisle.

Seems to me it takes a lot of gals ONE of these dead-end relationships to wake up to the fact that their fairy tale ending ISN''T INEVITABLE. I know I''m guilty of it ... and I know there was a certain degree of youthful hubris attached to my delusions. And plain ol'' naivite.

The other (perhaps) applicable factor in the ''special snowflake'' syndrome ... is a woman''s SELF-focus. The tendency to judge the likelihood of a relationship working out based on what SHE contributes, how hard SHE tries, how ''good'' she is ... and NOT to take a close, hard look on what she is GETTING. What the guy is actually capable of, what he wants, what his actions SHOW he wants *despite* what he might say.

Obvs. the men think they''re ''SS'' too -- that someone thinner/hotter/richer/better breedin'' material is coming around the corner anytime and will OBVS want to marry them, because they are so, yup, AWESOME.

Ha! Yes, that just about dots the eyes and crosses the tees. I have read many posts here about how much the LIW is contributing to, and how little the awesome guy is giving to, their relationship; and really, how come it''s not working? I haven''t been reading for many months either; just occasionally popping over to see what''s up; but this seems to be a reaccuring theme.

And before we hear about how we are bashing the LIWs, let me just say . . . . we''ve all been there before. We have. And if we have any life experience, we feel a sisterly bond with our fellow female PSers (and females everywhere) to impart any wisdom we might have gained. We are sincere in our desire that you be in an equal partnership, a truly loving relationship. And we want you to recognize one when you see it, and recognize the couterfeit when you experience it.

 

[fleur-de-lis]

I''m surprised that no one has mentioned two major changes in US societal norms since the pre-70s era:

1. For most of US history, it was very uncommon for a single woman to live outside of her parents home before marriage. Most went directly from her parents'' house to one with her new husband; there was no solo apartment for the "between" years, and certainly no cohabitation. Not only does this arrangement encourage earlier marriage age (as it was the only route of escape, heh heh), but the discouraging looks and other prohibitions from a young lady''s father would certainly have a dampening effect on young men acting like teenagers. ("Buy the milk, son, no tasting with my daughter.")

2. Weekly attendance at church, and the nexus to community norms, is down. Communities that are bound together by a moral code which prohibits pre-marital entanglements, when pervasive in that community, effectively prohibit the arrangements which encourage the delay of marriage.


I think the threat of a young lady''s dad "kicking your butt" if you got her "entangled in sin" causes young men to talk marriage sooner. Not much threat of a bona-fide shotgun these days, you know?