The Child Man ... why men are marrying later or not at all

[sandia_rose]

Date: 2/2/2008 11:55:07 PM
Author: Allison D.

I think many of the factors other have pointed to are valid (schooling later, later to build/establish career, cohabitating more acceptable now), but for me the bottom line on why gals are so anxious to get married and guys aren''t in this:

Women who aren''t married are still often perceived as and/or treated as incomplete or less-than-whole.
Guys who aren''t married, on the other hand, are typically the envy of all around them and are often perceived to have the world by the cahones.

As such, women are more eager to change their status than men are.

I am glad you posted this, because I have been struggling with this for a while now. I really, really, REALLY wish I knew what I/we (all of us ladies) can do to help change this perception. It''s frustrating to me. Logically, I know that I am "OK" as I am. I have a good job, a little boy, my own apartment, a circle of friends, etc. I''m not insecure - I''ve worked as a manager and am known by others for my confidence and ability to be self-sufficient. I don''t "need" to get married, but I''d like to. And, I was previously married and it was hell - you would think that I''d be permanently turned off to the idea of marriage after my prior experience. Nope. I think I might be responding to outside pressure/conditioning. Our society tends to want to see people paired up, and if you''re in my age group (over 35), people start expecting that you''re going to "pair up" after you''ve been together 2 or so years, like my BF and I. And if you''re over 40 and still single, the pressure can be pretty bad as well. I have a male friend who is in his early 40s and who has never been married and never wants to be married or have children. He won''t even have a steady girlfriend or stay over a woman''s place, because he wants freedom. Men I know think he''s cool and envy him. Women I know think he''s a commitment-phobe. But he''s not one - he simply doesn''t want those things and is honest with himself and others. I have a female friend who thinks similarly, and you should hear the comments about her from men AND women! They are not flattering. Both of these friends have heard comments from family members, etc, as to "Why won''t you grow up and settle down? Don''t you know you''re going to die alone?"

My BF and I had some pretty intense conversations over the past week and over this weekend. I told him that I wanted a commitment from him, to which he replied, "But....we spend a lot of time together. We see each other exclusively. Our children are friends. I thought that was a commitment." Well, it is and isn''t.

Anyone else have any ideas, besides the ones that have been posted, why we modern women still cave to this pressure?

Bridget in Connecticut.

 

[sandia_rose]

Date: 1/31/2008 12:23:41 PM
Author: mjso
If you still want the proposal to come from the guy, it must be very frustrating to not be able to ''be the one in charge''.

This could be part of my problem, too - but again, going back to the societal expectations not entirely jiving with biology/evolution.

I used to be a corporate department manager. In many instances, I was the only woman at my level (and 10+ years younger than everyone else to boot) and had to learn to "toughen up" and "give it right back" to deal with verbal abuse from other men at my level - many of whom resented me because I beat them out for promotions, company perks and bonuses. I was raised by a woman who was widowed young with three children, and she drilled it into my head that I "must" get an education, I "must" get a well-paying job and I "must" be self-sufficient. A lot of what I have in life is due to my own hard work. And going to back to my corporate life, if I wanted something - a raise, a promotion, a better office location, a bigger expense account - I had to ASK for it and sometimes BE RELENTLESS IN ASKING. I couldn''t sit there like a good little girl and wait for it. And in terms of problems....ditto. If there is one in my life, I have learned to deal with it head on, as opposed to ignoring it with the hope that it will go away. When I got divorced and moved into my apartment, I had a downstairs neighbor that blasted horrible rap music at all hours. The bass would knock pictures off my walls. Calling the apartment management did no good - they are out of state and basically just collect money. They told me to call the police if it was that bad. I didn''t do that. One night, I''d had enough and I went down there and knocked on his door. I told him that I needed sleep and peace and wasn''t tolerating the racket anymore. He folded his arms and said, "And what are YOU gonna do about it?" I said, "Call the police." And I took a little sniff and said, "Gee, I smell something else coming from your apartment, and it ain''t scented candles. I''m sure you don''t want the nice officers to get a whiff of that, would you?" I never had a problem with it again.

So given my conditioning, I am having a tough time "letting the guy control it all." In my experience, I don''t have to be a control freak....but I have learned that "sitting and being patient" (ie - doing nothing and letting things happen) does not work and ends up frustrating me.

Bridget in Connecticut.

 

[sandia_rose]

Date: 2/1/2008 5:29:19 PM
Author: tberube

Good point, Anchor. I've always thought it was very one-sided and unfair that a woman can give a man the security of a loving relationship and even purchasing a home together, give him everything he wants, but then she has to shut her trap about marriage so she doesn't 'pressure' the guy. Yeesh.

So much for female empowerment.

I felt guilty for "pressuring" my boyfriend of two years by asking him where he saw our relationship going -- for about 2 seconds. Yes, he has all kinds of stress in his life. But life itself is stress. If you're in a relationship with me, then I have every right to ask the question. Or as another girlfriend pointed out to me: Life is full of uncomfortable questions. Get used to answering them and quit being a little baby. I asked the question. I got some answers. And I am actually seeing some action on some things. The long talks we had on Thursday and Friday stunk....but a lot of stuff got on the table that needed to.

My boyfriend made a joke (which I did not find amusing) during our conversation by referring to me as a "femminazi" (pronounced "fem-a-not-see"). He said, "You're always so militant about things. Why can't you just be like other women and patiently wait your turn? Why do you have to have a plan for everything?" And I said, "My life is not a carnival ride. This is my life, and I'm not waiting any turns." I also told him that if he expected me to be a nice little girl and wait patiently and not ask any questions....just let everything happen around me, then why don't I:

1) Quit my job, and he can resume supporting me
2) Give up my apartment, and he can take care of my housing
3) Start taking care of my meals and arranging for my healthcare/exams/any treatment I may need

I told him that society (and he is a part of society) expects me to be a "modern woman" and almost like a man in many respects. Well, OK, then. Don't be shocked if I express an interest at knowing where my future is going and asking direct questions like men do. The double standard and cafeteria approach to relationships (picking and choosing what "rules" you want to follow) is BS in my book. If that's not acceptable, then we can go back to the 1880s - he can support me and make all of the decisions without input or questions and I will sit there and look pretty.

[Sorry for the snarfy 'tude. I am in that kind of mood today. But you know what I mean.]

Bridget in Connecticut.