The Child Man ... why men are marrying later or not at all

[Independent Gal]

This may be specific to certain segments of the population, but another way that women contribute to the statistics (and women are marrying much later too) is is that they are more likely to seek ambitious career options these days. That affects marrying age in two ways. First, they are more likely to feel like they can fend for themselves and make their own good living. I decided to buy a house. I bought a house. I didn't wait for a man to buy a house for me. And women who go to medical school, law school, do a Ph.D., etc. are often more likely to put off marriage because they know they may have to move around a lot, etc. So in general some women might feel more independent and able to take care of themselves.

Not ONE of my friends or classmates was REMOTELY ready for marriage until around 27, and that was largely because getting married was not 'their dream' or the be all and end all of life, but was instead something they would explore once they were well on their way to pursuing their real ambitions and dreams. In some cases, my friends are still not at all willing to sacrifice their ambitions to get married, adn would rather stay single.

So, we are much more like Holly's godson. We all wanted to be stars too! (Or at least to fulfill our potential and strive for excellence all on our own...not that you can't do this in a marriage, but it's much harder for two people to do it at the same time, because of the whole 'compromise' thing).

I don't know how much me and the people I know affect statistics (ha!), but let's just say that the "Why won't he marry me?" phenomenon was one I first encountered on PS. I still have actually never met ANYBODY like that. Except maybe my little brother who's girlfriend of 8 years doesn't believe in marriage, which breaks his dear sweet heart. He wants to take care of a family. She doesn't want anyone thinking for a second that she needs anyone but herself to take care of her. Thing is, I kinda get that too.

 

[bee*]

Date: 1/30/2008 1:06:55 PM
Author: decodelighted
As far as women being ''to blame'' ... my theory is that its a bit of the ''special snowflake'' syndrome that dupes women into thinking marriage is inevitable in what seems to the rest of the people around them to be a dead-end relationship with one of these Peter Pan men, because they are so AWESOME.


They very well may be AWESOME but their AWESOMENESS alone isn''t going to grow one of these perpetual kids right up & down the aisle.


Seems to me it takes a lot of gals ONE of these dead-end relationships to wake up to the fact that their fairy tale ending ISN''T INEVITABLE. I know I''m guilty of it ... and I know there was a certain degree of youthful hubris attached to my delusions. And plain ol'' naivite.


The other (perhaps) applicable factor in the ''special snowflake'' syndrome ... is a woman''s SELF-focus. The tendency to judge the likelihood of a relationship working out based on what SHE contributes, how hard SHE tries, how ''good'' she is ... and NOT to take a close, hard look on what she is GETTING. What the guy is actually capable of, what he wants, what his actions SHOW he wants *despite* what he might say.


Obvs. the men think they''re ''SS'' too -- that someone thinner/hotter/richer/better breedin'' material is coming around the corner anytime and will OBVS want to marry them, because they are so, yup, AWESOME.

haha totally agree with you deco!

 

[sandia_rose]

Date: 1/30/2008 12:37:06 PM
Author: ladypirate

I also have to say that I hate that one of the by-products of the feminist movement has been that it is now almost impossible to get by on only one income. I don''t care who stays home with the kids--father or mother--but I think it''s terrible that the economy has become such that they have to raise themselves.

I''m glad you posted that observation. I have thought this many-many-MANY times! In my area, the pressure to be a working woman AND a mother/wife is ridiculous. Maybe it''s the proximity to NYC or something. But I have a close friend whose husband is a computer programmer. He makes well over $100K a year and already owned a home of his own before they got married, so when she got pregnant, she had the choice to stay home. She was working as a secretary and going to school nights, so she didn''t have so much of an income (she made under $20K) where it being there verses not mattered very much, compared to what her husband brought in. She went from her parent''s house to her husband''s house - never made enough to live on her own (she is also really young). When their baby was born, every once in a while her mother would watch the baby for the evening while she and her husband went out to dinner, went out with friends, etc. Invariably, the question would come to her as, "So...what do you do?" And she''d reply, "Well, we just had a baby, so I''m staying home for a while to be a mom, and then I''ll go back to school." She eventually stopped going out because she said that she got sick of people looking down their noses at her, as if staying home to be a mother was a sign of laziness. Being a mother is HARD!! It''s no picnic and as I told my friend, those people should see how much relaxation and TV time they have chasing around a kid who is walking and crawling, pooping every couple of hours and has colic/earaches, etc.

I am currently having an income issue myself. I make what''s considered a good salary, but the housing prices in good towns in this state are unreal. I make half the money that my ex did, and in order for me to afford a house in this market, I would need to bring in another $20K a year to afford something without being mortgaged to the wall. And I have an education and no debt load. It''s actually cheaper to rent than it is to buy, which is stupid to me. All the single women I know, with the exception of one, are professional women and/or have good jobs, and we all rent. The one friend I know who does own bought a condo before the interest rates skyrocketed. She got a variable mortgage and is now paralyzed by it. She said to me the other day, "When I was a kid, my mom didn''t work. I asked my Dad what he made when he bought our house, and he made almost half what I make! It''s wrong that I have more education and income than my father did and I am having problems paying my bills!!!!"

Bridget in Connecticut.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 1/30/2008 4:00:55 PM
Author: ladypirate
I also have to say that I hate that one of the by-products of the feminist movement has been that it is now almost impossible to get by on only one income. I don''t care who stays home with the kids--father or mother--but I think it''s terrible that the economy has become such that they have to raise themselves.

Is it a by-product of the feminist movement? Really? If there''d been no feminist movement would milk be cheaper, houses more affordable, oil more bountiful, jobs not outsourced to foreign countries??

My hunch: we''d all be in an even bigger pickle. Women with no training & education .. still being left by their men for younger women ... and forced (as many earlier generations of women have been) to "get up to speed" job/skill-wise WITH A HOUSEFUL OF KIDS. As if THOSE kids would be any better off that the latch-key kids of professional women??

Also, those pre-feminist days weren''t as rosy as today''s ladies might like to believe. Pill-popping, wife-swapping key parties, people staying hitched despite abuse/affairs/addiction because of lack of options.

As long as we are a CAPITALIST society, value will always be placed on one''s ability to earn their keep $$-wise. Women would suffer even greater loss of societal respect if they took steps backwards in that regard. IMHO that is.

 

[HollyS]

Date: 1/30/2008 4:20:07 PM
Author: decodelighted

Date: 1/30/2008 4:00:55 PM
Author: ladypirate
I also have to say that I hate that one of the by-products of the feminist movement has been that it is now almost impossible to get by on only one income. I don''t care who stays home with the kids--father or mother--but I think it''s terrible that the economy has become such that they have to raise themselves.

Is it a by-product of the feminist movement? Really? If there''d been no feminist movement would milk be cheaper, houses more affordable, oil more bountiful, jobs not outsourced to foreign countries??

My hunch: we''d all be in an even bigger pickle. Women with no training & education .. still being left by their men for younger women ... and forced (as many earlier generations of women have been) to ''get up to speed'' job/skill-wise WITH A HOUSEFUL OF KIDS. As if THOSE kids would be any better off that the latch-key kids of professional women??

Also, those pre-feminist days weren''t as rosy as today''s ladies might like to believe. Pill-popping, wife-swapping key parties, people staying hitched despite abuse/affairs/addiction because of lack of options.

As long as we are a CAPITALIST society, value will always be placed on one''s ability to earn their keep $$-wise. Women would suffer even greater loss of societal respect if they took steps backwards in that regard. IMHO that is.

You''re right. There is no going back. I know I don''t want to; and I''m pretty conservative.

I would really like to see young women focus on themselves during their early adult years -- broaden their horizons a bit with travel or life experiences; and maybe find a job that feeds the soul as well as the bank balance -- before getting married and having children. You cannot get those years back. If women were a little less eager for matrimony and motherhood at an early age, perhaps they wouldn''t care so much about Joe Whomever''s maturity level and readiness for ''responsibility''. They might find the right person ready when they are.

 

[ladypirate]

Date: 1/30/2008 5:16:37 PM
Author: HollyS

Date: 1/30/2008 4:20:07 PM

Author: decodelighted

Date: 1/30/2008 4:00:55 PM

Author: ladypirate

I also have to say that I hate that one of the by-products of the feminist movement has been that it is now almost impossible to get by on only one income. I don't care who stays home with the kids--father or mother--but I think it's terrible that the economy has become such that they have to raise themselves.

Is it a by-product of the feminist movement? Really? If there'd been no feminist movement would milk be cheaper, houses more affordable, oil more bountiful, jobs not outsourced to foreign countries??


My hunch: we'd all be in an even bigger pickle. Women with no training & education .. still being left by their men for younger women ... and forced (as many earlier generations of women have been) to 'get up to speed' job/skill-wise WITH A HOUSEFUL OF KIDS. As if THOSE kids would be any better off that the latch-key kids of professional women??


Also, those pre-feminist days weren't as rosy as today's ladies might like to believe. Pill-popping, wife-swapping key parties, people staying hitched despite abuse/affairs/addiction because of lack of options.


As long as we are a CAPITALIST society, value will always be placed on one's ability to earn their keep $$-wise. Women would suffer even greater loss of societal respect if they took steps backwards in that regard. IMHO that is.

You're right. There is no going back. I know I don't want to; and I'm pretty conservative.


I would really like to see young women focus on themselves during their early adult years -- broaden their horizons a bit with travel or life experiences; and maybe find a job that feeds the soul as well as the bank balance -- before getting married and having children. You cannot get those years back. If women were a little less eager for matrimony and motherhood at an early age, perhaps they wouldn't care so much about Joe Whomever's maturity level and readiness for 'responsibility'. They might find the right person ready when they are.

Deco, please don't get me wrong--I'm not saying that things would necessarily be cheaper if there had been no feminist movement. I like being independent--if someone ever tried to take that away from me, I'd fight them tooth and nail. What I meant (and perhaps I didn't convey this very well) is that incomes have not risen commensurately with the cost of living and I believe that this is in part due to the fact that it is assumed that households are two-income. I wasn't trying to say that I disagree with the feminist movement at all, but I do think that that that is an unfortunate and unintended by-product.

Part of it could also be that I live in an extraordinarily expensive part of the country (Southern California), and even without children, significant others, or anyone else around, it is still very difficult to make enough to live comfortably (not extravagantly) let alone save or buy a house, so I am rather sensitive to that particular issue.

Holly, I completely agree. In an ideal world, everyone would take that time to learn about themselves--travel on their own, learn about themselves, move to a brand new city where they know no-one, follow their dreams, etc. I wish that more people did just that.

ETA: BTW, Deco--was your previous post trying to tell me I'm not awesome? Lies!

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 1/30/2008 11:44:31 AM
Author: sunnyd
I think it''s funny to hear everyone saying that you now NEED to go to grad school to get a good job. I went to college because my parents wanted me to, but I have a great job that has absolutely nothing to do with my degree! My circle of friends is a bit older than me (25-30), some of them got married at 20, one couple at 17(!), the others at 26 or so. I don''t think any of them went to college, and they make a lot more money than me! It''s probably different for different parts of the country I guess...


That was a random observation, and has really nothing to do with the article. Ha! It''s still early.

I''m not saying that by any means. I''m just saying that it seems as though the need for Masters, Doctorates, JDs, MDs, etc. have gone up. I''m from NM where most people want to get out because the median income is about $38,000. The way most people get out is through education. I''ve been raised by a lawyer and a very independent woman who considered going on to get her Masters, but decided that money was more important (something to do with not having enough money for food). They''ve put great importance on education, but I can tell you that after 7 years of working or going to school, 9 by the time I"m done, higher than a BA education is not for me. But I already know that an Associate''s wont'' get me where I want to go.

 

[CNOS128]

Date: 1/30/2008 2:20:32 PM
Author: Independent Gal
This may be specific to certain segments of the population, but another way that women contribute to the statistics (and women are marrying much later too) is is that they are more likely to seek ambitious career options these days. That affects marrying age in two ways. First, they are more likely to feel like they can fend for themselves and make their own good living. I decided to buy a house. I bought a house. I didn''t wait for a man to buy a house for me. And women who go to medical school, law school, do a Ph.D., etc. are often more likely to put off marriage because they know they may have to move around a lot, etc. So in general some women might feel more independent and able to take care of themselves.


Not ONE of my friends or classmates was REMOTELY ready for marriage until around 27, and that was largely because getting married was not ''their dream'' or the be all and end all of life, but was instead something they would explore once they were well on their way to pursuing their real ambitions and dreams. In some cases, my friends are still not at all willing to sacrifice their ambitions to get married, adn would rather stay single.


So, we are much more like Holly''s godson. We all wanted to be stars too! (Or at least to fulfill our potential and strive for excellence all on our own...not that you can''t do this in a marriage, but it''s much harder for two people to do it at the same time, because of the whole ''compromise'' thing).


I don''t know how much me and the people I know affect statistics (ha!), but let''s just say that the ''Why won''t he marry me?'' phenomenon was one I first encountered on PS. I still have actually never met ANYBODY like that. Except maybe my little brother who''s girlfriend of 8 years doesn''t believe in marriage, which breaks his dear sweet heart. He wants to take care of a family. She doesn''t want anyone thinking for a second that she needs anyone but herself to take care of her. Thing is, I kinda get that too.

It''s funny because (I''m in law school) I was having a conversation with one of my classmates today and we were talking about our favorite ring styles (she likes a cushion w/ halo in WG or platinum) and she told me that she''d definitely not be ready for marriage until she''s out of school and knows where she''ll work. (Then lamented that she didn''t think she''d ever find someone to marry!).

Maybe it''s because I started professional school later (I''m older than 27) in life, or I''m weird -- but I don''t feel that way at all. I''d get married tomorrow (my BF has also made it clear that he''ll follow me wherever I move). And I do have a touch of the "why won''t he marry me" syndrome, but I guess I just want to settle that part of my life so I can have the family (he''s planning to be a stay at home dad -- I''m not quite sure that''ll do, but I certainly don''t want to be a stay at home mom) and fulfill my career and other life ambitions all at once.

And, I know I''m perfectly capable of standing on my own 2 feet (at least, I will be once I graduate) but I don''t think I''d be very happy unless I could be with the person I love. And merely living together, sans marriage contract, I don''t think is too much different than being married, in terms of independence.

I dunno. In my class full of future lawyers, I see a lot of people (strong, independent, career-minded women) who are even younger than I am just DYING to get married. The guys? Not so much.
Funny enough, there are way more married men in my class than women. (By "way" I mean, like, 4).



BigT

 

[Independent Gal]

I would really like to see young women focus on themselves during their early adult years -- broaden their horizons a bit with travel or life experiences; and maybe find a job that feeds the soul as well as the bank balance -- before getting married and having children. You cannot get those years back. If women were a little less eager for matrimony and motherhood at an early age, perhaps they wouldn't care so much about Joe Whomever's maturity level and readiness for 'responsibility'. They might find the right person ready when they are.

Yes, Holly, that's exactly what it is like in my peer group. The gals go out and make something of themselves, have adventures, accomplish things, then when they're ready to get married, the boys are ready too. As I said above, I didn't know anyone who was all "But I want to get marrrrriiiiied! Why isn't he ready?" until I came to Pricescope. Just doesn't exist in my circles, so far as I know. Or maybe we're just good at spotting the non-commital types.

ETA Big T We may well be a weird bunch! Who knows?

 

[FrekeChild]

Holly S
"I would really like to see young women focus on themselves during their early adult years -- broaden their horizons a bit with travel or life experiences; and maybe find a job that feeds the soul as well as the bank balance -- before getting married and having children. You cannot get those years back. If women were a little less eager for matrimony and motherhood at an early age, perhaps they wouldn''t care so much about Joe Whomever''s maturity level and readiness for ''responsibility''. They might find the right person ready when they are."

IndyGal
ETA Big T We may well be a weird bunch! Who knows?


Holly, my independent streak lasted for about 2 years, one of which was spent in Hyde Park NY where I knew NO ONE, that was certainly a life experience (and a very expensive one at that!) I agree with gaining these life experiences and ultimately finding oneself before committing to another individual. I''m still eager for matrimony (although not motherhood-no kids here!) but it isn''t who I am. I really think that some women, as well as girls think that a relationship can define them and they begin to lose sight of who they are without a relationship. Or without a man in general.

As for Indy''s question--I totally think we''re a weird bunch!!
Has anyone noticed that there seems to be quite a few highly educated women amongst us PSers? I''ve seen several attorneys, PhDs, MDs or those in Med School, women working on or have completed their Masters, etc.

I''m loving this thread BTW. I think it''s a great topic for discussion.

 

[ladypirate]

Freke, I think you and I are on very similar wavelengths. I also took about 2 years and went to a city where I knew no one just to prove to myself that I could make it on my own, and while I look forward to someday being married to my bf, it''s certainly not what defines me. That''d be kind of sad.

I have noticed that the people on pricescope tend to be intelligent and for the most part highly educated, probably moreso than I''ve seen on any other online forum I''ve been a part of. I wonder if it''s because it''s a site about education? The people who come here actually care about learning enough to get a really great stone, rather than just hopping over to a mall store and overpaying for a crappy stone, so that love of learning (and nice things) probably translates into their pursuits in their off-line lives.

 

[strmrdr]

well a comment I hear all the time is:
And no I dont agree with it all that much....

1: We dont have to grow up at a young age anymore so why should we!!!
2: Why should we get married so we can get taken too the cleaners like our Dad''s were.
3: Why buy the cow when the milk is fee.
4: Want a rat get a sperm donor and support them yourself it ain''t coming out of my tv money.

addon too 4 is ya want to do it all yourself why are you pestering me about it?

The unfair to guys and fathers divorce situation is why a whole bunch of guys I know will never get married.

 

[Delster]

Date: 1/30/2008 7:26:49 PM
Author: Independent Gal

Yes, Holly, that''s exactly what it is like in my peer group. The gals go out and make something of themselves, have adventures, accomplish things, then when they''re ready to get married, the boys are ready too. As I said above, I didn''t know anyone who was all ''But I want to get marrrrriiiiied! Why isn''t he ready?'' until I came to Pricescope. Just doesn''t exist in my circles, so far as I know. Or maybe we''re just good at spotting the non-commital types.

ETA Big T We may well be a weird bunch! Who knows?

This has been my experience too. In fact, when I did my professional degree (like a JD) last year not one of the women in my year - where average age would be something between 23 and 27 - ever brought up engagement or marriage. NOT A ONE. It is simply not on their radar. They were shocked shocked shocked that BF and I had even talked about it and thought we were rushing things (I am 28, and BF and I are dating 5 years). Seems to me like American women of that age are much more interested in marriage.

Holly and Deco - I totally agree. I think it''s not about finding an awesome man - it''s about working on being an awesome woman and then finding a man who matches up to YOU!

 

[mjso]

As I was keeping up with replies to this thread (which I''m also totally enjoying) a thought popped into my head. I wonder if some of the difference between guys and girls with marriage stems from the fact that it an area in life that women may feel like they have less control over.

I decide what my degree is in, I decide if I get a post-grad degree, I decide if I want to travel, etc. All of these things people are talking about doing before getting married are personal decisions, they only affect you. But in order to get married you have to rely upon someone else. And a lot of women still feel the man should propose. So, basically you are (not exactly)powerless to fulfill a goal. Sure, you can ask a man to marry you, nothing is stopping anyone from that, but I think that the vast majority of women still want to be proposed to.

Guys aren''t as stressed about it because they are the ones who "make the decision". They ask when they are ready, so they really don''t think about it too much. But for a woman who has all of her ducks in a row, but still wants this one thing (and what''s wrong with wanting to be married, I feel like some of the sentiment in this thread is discounting the desire for companionship. Not that I''m saying other pursuits aren''t good too, but if someone really feels that marriage and a family is a goal of theirs, why should they be told they can''t try to achieve that goal?) she might have a hard time depending on someone else to accomplish her goal. And I would imagine this gets even harder the more independent you are, the more experiences you have, etc. If you still want the proposal to come from the guy, it must be very frustrating to not be able to "be the one in charge".

Just thinking, maybe it is way off base, but I thought it might spur some more conversation

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 1/31/2008 12:23:41 PM
Author: mjso
If you still want the proposal to come from the guy, it must be very frustrating to not be able to ''be the one in charge''.

Oh this made me chuckle a bit ... because marriage is all about "not being in charge" any more ... or *rather* compromising, cooperating, negotiating and generally sacrificing a bunch of your own needs/wants/time etc. in order to help out your partner. So, in that regard, the frustrating wait for LIW''s is probably the best thing that''s ever happened to them as far as preparing them for the REALITIES of being married.

Additionally, the negotiation up to an engagement and throughout wedding planning is an amazing "trial run" for how you''ll work together as a couple in the future. If its very one-sided ... unbalanced ... with him poutingly being dragged along -- GUESS what being married to him will be like. Yup. So, um, why sign up for THAT?

 

[HollyS]

Date: 1/31/2008 12:33:08 PM
Author: decodelighted

Date: 1/31/2008 12:23:41 PM
Author: mjso
If you still want the proposal to come from the guy, it must be very frustrating to not be able to ''be the one in charge''.

Oh this made me chuckle a bit ... because marriage is all about ''not being in charge'' any more ... or *rather* compromising, cooperating, negotiating and generally sacrificing a bunch of your own needs/wants/time etc. in order to help out your partner. So, in that regard, the frustrating wait for LIW''s is probably the best thing that''s ever happened to them as far as preparing them for the REALITIES of being married.

Additionally, the negotiation up to an engagement and throughout wedding planning is an amazing ''trial run'' for how you''ll work together as a couple in the future. If its very one-sided ... unbalanced ... with him poutingly being dragged along -- GUESS what being married to him will be like. Yup. So, um, why sign up for THAT?

Let me interject a bit of ''real life'' here. This morning I get up at 6am, shower, dress, get ready for work. At 7am go to check on hubby (he''s been sick, coughing, hacking, so he was sleeping in guest room) and ask how he feels. "Terrible, awful!" Me: Did you take your temp? Him: No.

Long story short: I had to get him to take his temp. I had to get him the Tylenol. I had to tell him he needed to call in sick. I had to tell him he needed to go to the doctor. I had to get him roused out of bed to take his shower because he never goes anywhere without having one. I called every clinic in the county to get an appointment for him. I had to take him to the appointment. I had to get his meds. I had to get us both lunch. ''Cause his happy a$$ would still be in the bed, feeling sorry for himself, if I had not taken charge.

That''s what real marriage is going to be like. For better, for worse. In sickness, and health. Til death do us part. If I didn''t love him, I would have strangled him this morning and taken care of that *death clause*.

Real life, real marriage. Why wouldn''t our LIWs be anxious to experience these special moments with a spouse?

 

[TravelingGal]

Better yet Holly, doncha love when "I" or "we" actually means "you?" i.e., "I have to find a drycleaner" = "will you please find me a drycleaner?" Or "We have to get our car serviced" = "honey, you work from home and have more time, so can you get the car serviced?"

It''s a sad day when I don''t even know who "I" am anymore....

 

[HollyS]

Date: 1/31/2008 5:16:45 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Better yet Holly, doncha love when ''I'' or ''we'' actually means ''you?'' i.e., ''I have to find a drycleaner'' = ''will you please find me a drycleaner?'' Or ''We have to get our car serviced'' = ''honey, you work from home and have more time, so can you get the car serviced?''

It''s a sad day when I don''t even know who ''I'' am anymore....

Yes. Mine is embarrassed that "we" have not finished our wedding thank-you cards. Well, "we" moved a decade of living out of an apartment, helped the spouse move more than a decade out of his apartment, unpacked and made livable our current house, decorated and shopped for the holidays, entertained out-of-town family at New Year''s, got sick as a dog first part of January, and all while setting up a new car dealership two counties away. And now "we" have nursemaided the spouse through his illness.

"He" never wrote a line on any of the thank-you cards that have been done. "He" hasn''t given me new addresses on some of his guests that have moved out of state since Christmas. But "we" should have had those done by now. (This, of course is never spoken, merely implied in a not-so-subtle fashion.)

Ah, the joys of wedded bliss.

 

[TravelingGal]

Ha...well, now I just clarify what all of it means. As an English major, this is important.

TGuy: I need to buy some workshirts.
TGal: In this case, does I mean you?
TGuy: Huh? No, I mean me.
TGal: OK, because it the past I or we has meant you meaning me, and I need to know if you mean me when you say I or we, or we''ll never get it done.
(TGuy stares at me and beelines for a beer).

 

[HollyS]

Date: 1/31/2008 5:50:51 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Ha...well, now I just clarify what all of it means. As an English major, this is important.

TGuy: I need to buy some workshirts.
TGal: In this case, does I mean you?
TGuy: Huh? No, I mean me.
TGal: OK, because it the past I or we has meant you meaning me, and I need to know if you mean me when you say I or we, or we''ll never get it done.
(TGuy stares at me and beelines for a beer).

I''m beginning to understand your avatar.

 

[ladypirate]

Date: 1/31/2008 5:50:51 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Ha...well, now I just clarify what all of it means. As an English major, this is important.


TGuy: I need to buy some workshirts.

TGal: In this case, does I mean you?

TGuy: Huh? No, I mean me.

TGal: OK, because it the past I or we has meant you meaning me, and I need to know if you mean me when you say I or we, or we'll never get it done.

(TGuy stares at me and beelines for a beer).

LOL, TGal--that's hilarious.

I have to say, though, that while Kris does this sometimes, I'm guilty of it as well. For example, when I say "we need to clean the bathroom" that usually means him and when he says "we need to do some laundry" that usually means me. Not that either of us is incapable of doing the other chore--it just usually gets divided that way. Partly because I would much rather fold laundry 3x a week that clean the toilet 1x a week, and it's vice versa for him.

 

[Patiently_Waiting]

Date: 1/31/2008 5:11:24 PM
Author: HollyS

Date: 1/31/2008 12:33:08 PM
Author: decodelighted

Date: 1/31/2008 12:23:41 PM
Author: mjso
If you still want the proposal to come from the guy, it must be very frustrating to not be able to ''be the one in charge''.

Oh this made me chuckle a bit ... because marriage is all about ''not being in charge'' any more ... or *rather* compromising, cooperating, negotiating and generally sacrificing a bunch of your own needs/wants/time etc. in order to help out your partner. So, in that regard, the frustrating wait for LIW''s is probably the best thing that''s ever happened to them as far as preparing them for the REALITIES of being married.

Additionally, the negotiation up to an engagement and throughout wedding planning is an amazing ''trial run'' for how you''ll work together as a couple in the future. If its very one-sided ... unbalanced ... with him poutingly being dragged along -- GUESS what being married to him will be like. Yup. So, um, why sign up for THAT?

Let me interject a bit of ''real life'' here. This morning I get up at 6am, shower, dress, get ready for work. At 7am go to check on hubby (he''s been sick, coughing, hacking, so he was sleeping in guest room) and ask how he feels. ''Terrible, awful!'' Me: Did you take your temp? Him: No.

Long story short: I had to get him to take his temp. I had to get him the Tylenol. I had to tell him he needed to call in sick. I had to tell him he needed to go to the doctor. I had to get him roused out of bed to take his shower because he never goes anywhere without having one. I called every clinic in the county to get an appointment for him. I had to take him to the appointment. I had to get his meds. I had to get us both lunch. ''Cause his happy a$$ would still be in the bed, feeling sorry for himself, if I had not taken charge.

That''s what real marriage is going to be like. For better, for worse. In sickness, and health. Til death do us part. If I didn''t love him, I would have strangled him this morning and taken care of that *death clause*.

Real life, real marriage. Why wouldn''t our LIWs be anxious to experience these special moments with a spouse?

Loves it!

 

[Patiently_Waiting]

LOL TGAL!

 

[sunnyd]

Date: 1/31/2008 6:37:49 PM
Author: ladypirate

Date: 1/31/2008 5:50:51 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Ha...well, now I just clarify what all of it means. As an English major, this is important.


TGuy: I need to buy some workshirts.

TGal: In this case, does I mean you?

TGuy: Huh? No, I mean me.

TGal: OK, because it the past I or we has meant you meaning me, and I need to know if you mean me when you say I or we, or we''ll never get it done.

(TGuy stares at me and beelines for a beer).

LOL, TGal--that''s hilarious.

I have to say, though, that while Kris does this sometimes, I''m guilty of it as well. For example, when I say ''we need to clean the bathroom'' that usually means him and when he says ''we need to do some laundry'' that usually means me. Not that either of us is incapable of doing the other chore--it just usually gets divided that way. Partly because I would much rather fold laundry 3x a week that clean the toilet 1x a week, and it''s vice versa for him.

Hahaha!! Good one. I say ''we should do this'' when I want him to do something, without having to really ask him or tell him. A psychological trick! It never works...

Maybe one day.

 

[Erin]

Date: 1/31/2008 7:29:38 PM
Author: sunnyd

Date: 1/31/2008 6:37:49 PM
Author: ladypirate

Date: 1/31/2008 5:50:51 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Ha...well, now I just clarify what all of it means. As an English major, this is important.


TGuy: I need to buy some workshirts.

TGal: In this case, does I mean you?

TGuy: Huh? No, I mean me.

TGal: OK, because it the past I or we has meant you meaning me, and I need to know if you mean me when you say I or we, or we''ll never get it done.

(TGuy stares at me and beelines for a beer).

LOL, TGal--that''s hilarious.

I have to say, though, that while Kris does this sometimes, I''m guilty of it as well. For example, when I say ''we need to clean the bathroom'' that usually means him and when he says ''we need to do some laundry'' that usually means me. Not that either of us is incapable of doing the other chore--it just usually gets divided that way. Partly because I would much rather fold laundry 3x a week that clean the toilet 1x a week, and it''s vice versa for him.

Hahaha!! Good one. I say ''we should do this'' when I want him to do something, without having to really ask him or tell him. A psychological trick! It never works...

Maybe one day.

Maybe that''s because they''re so awesome they don''t need to be TOLD what to do so "We'' sounds much more like teamwork instead of scolding... even though "He '' is the one who needs to do it. Now.

 

[ladypirate]

Date: 2/1/2008 10:53:21 AM
Author: Starset Princess

Date: 1/31/2008 7:29:38 PM

Author: sunnyd

Date: 1/31/2008 6:37:49 PM

Author: ladypirate

Date: 1/31/2008 5:50:51 PM

Author: TravelingGal

Ha...well, now I just clarify what all of it means. As an English major, this is important.



TGuy: I need to buy some workshirts.


TGal: In this case, does I mean you?


TGuy: Huh? No, I mean me.


TGal: OK, because it the past I or we has meant you meaning me, and I need to know if you mean me when you say I or we, or we''ll never get it done.


(TGuy stares at me and beelines for a beer).

LOL, TGal--that''s hilarious.


I have to say, though, that while Kris does this sometimes, I''m guilty of it as well. For example, when I say ''we need to clean the bathroom'' that usually means him and when he says ''we need to do some laundry'' that usually means me. Not that either of us is incapable of doing the other chore--it just usually gets divided that way. Partly because I would much rather fold laundry 3x a week that clean the toilet 1x a week, and it''s vice versa for him.

Hahaha!! Good one. I say ''we should do this'' when I want him to do something, without having to really ask him or tell him. A psychological trick! It never works...

Maybe one day.

Maybe that''s because they''re so awesome they don''t need to be TOLD what to do so ''We'' sounds much more like teamwork instead of scolding... even though ''He '' is the one who needs to do it. Now.

Hee! That last "now" made me laugh.

 

[tberube]

Date: 1/29/2008 11:33:02 PM
Author: peridot83
While I'm sure the child man exists (and i have met my share), I have some serious problems with this article:


1. It's not just men who are not getting married, marriage is in a general rate of decline. With less and less social stigma on having sex and living together before marriage, most are getting married only to give legitimacy to their children and to own a home.


2. The average age of marriage is finally reaching the same age as it was before the baby-boomer generation. Think about Jane Austen novels, or even look at census data in the 1920s or 30s. The median age to get married was 24.6 for men and 21.6 for women. By contrast, in 1956 it was 22.5 for men and 20.5 for women.


3. I think the main reason that people are getting married at later ages, is it just takes longer to 'get on your feet' by todays standards than it did previously. Most won't get married until after college so that puts the earliest age at about 22 to 23, and many don't see a REASON to get married until they want to either:

a. own a home

b. or have children


Which means having a strong financial situation and savings, which will take you a few years right after college: i.e. until 26 or 27.


I honestly don't see many of the men in my circles (i.e. college graduates) who have a 'Frat-boy forever' mentality. A large number crave a significant other because they lack companionship (move to a new town for a job, and boom no 'guys' to hang out with). Even for those who don't, they generally see themselves settling down and finding someone in their early 30s mainly because they are currently obsessed with career and working on their own self-image.


The main problems I see in those aged 22-26 is many are in long distance relationships (because now that both men & women want a successful career they often end up in different places after college) or have trouble even finding people they want to date unless they're in graduate school.

Well of course, Peridot! With men not getting married until later, women have no choice but to wait for them to decide to do it!!!

 

[tberube]

Date: 1/30/2008 8:39:25 AM
Author: anchor31
Based on what I'm seeing around me, I do agree with this article. I've met quite a few '30-years-old teenagers' as I call them.



Another phenomenon that saddens me is how many women (25+) I meet who want to marry their man, but their man won't marry them. They live together and everything, some even own homes together or have children together... But their man just won't commit. It breaks my heart, because those women have told me they really want to get married, but they do everything their man wants (buy a home, etc.) and won't insist on marriage because they don't want to upset the so-called 'status quo'. Thing is, where I live, 'common-law' has no legal standing whatsoever. So if one of them dies or becomes incapacited, guess who is next of kin and power of attorney? The parents. And if the parents are so inclined, they can make the 'common-law' spouse's life a living hell. A lot of people don't know that, unfortunately. Since 'common-law' does have a legal standing in the other provinces (does it in the States?), people just assume it does here.

Good point, Anchor. I've always thought it was very one-sided and unfair that a woman can give a man the security of a loving relationship and even purchasing a home together, give him everything he wants, but then she has to shut her trap about marriage so she doesn't "pressure" the guy. Yeesh.

So much for female empowerment.

 

[sunnyd]

Date: 2/1/2008 12:09:56 PM
Author: ladypirate

Date: 2/1/2008 10:53:21 AM
Author: Starset Princess

Date: 1/31/2008 7:29:38 PM

Author: sunnyd

Date: 1/31/2008 6:37:49 PM

Author: ladypirate

Date: 1/31/2008 5:50:51 PM

Author: TravelingGal

Ha...well, now I just clarify what all of it means. As an English major, this is important.



TGuy: I need to buy some workshirts.


TGal: In this case, does I mean you?


TGuy: Huh? No, I mean me.


TGal: OK, because it the past I or we has meant you meaning me, and I need to know if you mean me when you say I or we, or we''ll never get it done.


(TGuy stares at me and beelines for a beer).

LOL, TGal--that''s hilarious.


I have to say, though, that while Kris does this sometimes, I''m guilty of it as well. For example, when I say ''we need to clean the bathroom'' that usually means him and when he says ''we need to do some laundry'' that usually means me. Not that either of us is incapable of doing the other chore--it just usually gets divided that way. Partly because I would much rather fold laundry 3x a week that clean the toilet 1x a week, and it''s vice versa for him.

Hahaha!! Good one. I say ''we should do this'' when I want him to do something, without having to really ask him or tell him. A psychological trick! It never works...

Maybe one day.

Maybe that''s because they''re so awesome they don''t need to be TOLD what to do so ''We'' sounds much more like teamwork instead of scolding... even though ''He '' is the one who needs to do it. Now.

Hee! That last ''now'' made me laugh.

Yes, NOW accompanied by eyes of fury!

 

[Allison D.]

Date: 1/31/2008 12:33:08 PM
Author: decodelighted

Oh this made me chuckle a bit ... because marriage is all about 'not being in charge' any more ...

Uh, Deco.........shhhhh. Please keep that quiet......Rich doesn't know that yet, and I don't want you to ruin it! LOL

I think many of the factors other have pointed to are valid (schooling later, later to build/establish career, cohabitating more acceptable now), but for me the bottom line on why gals are so anxious to get married and guys aren't in this:

Women who aren't married are still often perceived as and/or treated as incomplete or less-than-whole.
Guys who aren't married, on the other hand, are typically the envy of all around them and are often perceived to have the world by the cahones.

As such, women are more eager to change their status than men are.