The great name debate

[mjso]

I don''t really have any advice, but I can offer sympathy. I have NO idea what I am going to do about this. Jokingly, the topic of name changes came up and I said "maybe I won''t change my name." The look on FI''s face...you''d think I just killed his puppy or something. I mean, I want to have a family name and the same name as my children, but I''m just not quite ready to say "Okay, I''m no longer refered to as Myfirstname Mylastname. I mean I''ve had this name my whole life, now I''m supposed to just throw it away and be excited for a new one? Personally I like the way my last name flows with my first name better, but neither option is terrible. They are both very common US names. I''m thinking I''ll probably go with the make my maiden name my middle name route, but I also don''t have a current middle name, so its okay. I am still not sure though!

I thinki your decision is perfectly fine. And really, I don''t see what logical problem he could have to you keeping it as a middle name.

 

[swingirl]

If Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy did it why can''t you???

 

[karasue91]

Just wanted to share that my mother did exactly what you are describing: dropped her middle name, used her maiden name as middle and married name as last. I guess I''ve always thought that was normal because that''s how she did it.

I haven''t decided what I''m going to do with my maiden name. I like my middle name and I don''t want to drop it! I''ll probably just end up dropping my maiden name altogether.

I agree with the others...you are being completely reasonable and compromising...your FI seems to be harbouring some feelings he''s not sharing

Let us know where it goes...and good luck!

 

[zoebartlett]

I don''t have a lot of time this morning but I''ll respond more later this afternoon.

Blinkydoll -- yes, it would be more of an "on paper" kind of thing.

BIH -- I think there''s been a misunderstanding. I haven''t asked (nor wanted) my FI to take my last name. He just assumed I would take his and when I first told him that I didn''t plan on changing my name, he wasn''t happy about it. He said it wouldn''t feel "real" to him (as if the same last name equates a real marriage). I have since decided to compromise. Our names don''t flow together really well, so I wouldn''t want to hyphenate. Our names are two distict last names -- it would sound funny to use both socially. My last name will be his last name. We will be known as "the Jones''," and that''s what my students will call me.

Yeah, I don''t get why it seems to be such a big deal to him. We''ve both stated our opinions and we both strongly feel the way we feel. He said last night that I could do what I want and he couldn''t make me change my name if I didn''t want to. It was in a kind of passive aggressive tone. He also did admit late last night that he knew I had come closer to his side and he''d probably eventually come around. He needs extra time occasionally to process things, so I think he''ll be okay with what I do, but it will take time. If not, too bad. I''ve compromised as much as I''m going to. What he doesn''t seem to understand is that I AM taking his last name. For some reason however, he thinks that if I''m using my last name at all, I''m not really completely changing anything. I just like the "security" of seeing my name still on formal documents.

Yeah, I''d like to bang my head against the wall.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

FI and I have had this discussion before Z and it never ends well. He's adament about me taking his name and I just don't want to. Not that I love my last name, but it's my identity, ya know? If I take his name then my name will be "Stephanie Domenico" and to me that sounds like a "Jersey princess" name (no offence implied), and that's so not me. But I feel like it's not something that needs to be blown up into a big deal. I'll take his name in my personal life and I think I might keep my maiden name for work because my degrees are under my maiden name. I like your idea of making your maiden name your middle name. My mom did that and I honestly might as well.

Although then my initals would be SBD which would be kind of funny in an inappropriate kind of way.

 

[Independent Gal]

In a huuuuuuge hurry but just had to sign on to say:

Zozo, your FI is being selfish, childish and controlling. Why does his name need to obliterate yours? He needs to get over this. You need to be calm and firm and explain to him that he''s being ridiculous.

Sorry you''re having to deal with this!

OK, jetting off now!

 

[TravelingGal]

I''ve said before that I''m not a feminist.

However, your FI''s attitude toward your "compromise" (what COMPROMISE...you are taking his last name!) has rendered me speechless since yesterday when I first read this thread.

I''m still speechless.

(I''m actually not sure if this is ever happened to me on PS before...speechless...)

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 3/5/2008 6:28:26 AM
Author: ZoeBartlett
BIH -- I think there's been a misunderstanding. I haven't asked (nor wanted) my FI to take my last name.

I think she meant that your negotiation tactics weren't SEVERE enough. You have to start asking for WAY MORE than you actually want in order to end up somewhere in the middle.

The more I think about the situation the more uneasy I become with it. Is this the *only* issue of this sort (patriarchal, controlling etc?) I remember from another thread that you are starting to work on your VOWS & CEREMONY. I'd get to that if I were you -- make sure you *are* on the same page.

Good point about Jackie BOUVIER Kennedy. Not like this is a "new" idea??? My mom did it too -- in the FIFTIES. (ETA: SIXTIES, actually ... sorry, Mom!)

 

[TravelingGal]

OK, I''ve got some footing back and collected my jaw.

I really don''t understand why some men are so shocked that women don''t want to change their last name. Don''t they have the same reaction at the thought of changing theirs? At the very bottom line, what would make it different for women? Just because of "tradition?"

For the record, I kept mine. First of all, I found out that in Korea, women do not change their name because it was their father''s name and honors the family (or something like that...it wasn''t the reason I kept mine specifically). My family came to the U.S. and struggled. My father is now dying (he didn''t even make it to my wedding), with hardly any money to his name and had a hard and miserable life here. I have a lot of issues with my father, but I will always respect him for coming to America knowing nothing about the culture or language in the hopes for a better future for his children. For that reason, I wanted to keep my name...because I feel like I want to succeed in this country with his name and his life wasn''t in vain.

My mother is traditional and wanted to me to take TGuy''s last name until I explained to her my reasoning. Then she cried and thanked me. TGuy had NO issues with it at all...I was even willing to take his name in some form if it was something he REALLY wanted but he wouldn''t hear of it.

 

[musey]

Date: 3/5/2008 11:11:32 AM
Author: TravelingGal

For the record, I kept mine.
...
TGuy had NO issues with it at all...I was even willing to take his name in some form if it was something he REALLY wanted but he wouldn''t hear of it.

This is how that conversation SHOULD go. Kudos to TGuy!

 

[swimmer]

Hi Zoe,
What have your friends done? His friends'' wives? It is a difficult conversation once defenses go up and you are both invested in different positions.

I have found the opposite when sharing my name thoughts; so many people are horrified that I''m even contemplating moving my last name to middle and FI''s to last. My older female teacher friends in particular were adamant that women today NEVER take a new name and I was lectured on patriarchy and asked if my father was going to provide a dowry (yes, several camels). OK, so maybe Boston teachers are a bit out there, but I was taken aback when a student said that she was disappointed in another teacher''s choice to change her name when she got married. The student asked me "what kind of role model is she to tell us in one breath that women can do anything and yet she gives up her identity to her husband?" Strident 18yr olds are so entertaining. I told her that occasionally teachers can make decisions as humans that have nothing to do with their students and to chat with this teacher, who is progressive in her world-view and surely does not see herself as the property of her husband. I just share this with you since you are a teacher and in the same part of the country and it got me thinking. Its interesting that people all feel so different about names and all so passionately.

Hugs to you.

 

[ephemery1]

Date: 3/5/2008 11:11:32 AM
Author: TravelingGal

For the record, I kept mine.

TG, if you''re comfortable answering this, I''m curious... will TTot be given your last name or your husband''s?

 

[gwendolyn]

Zoe, I just wanted to say I''m sorry. I know you said that sometimes he just needs to take a little time to process things, and although I don''t totally understand his point of view, I do know that I''ve had a hard time adjusting to something if my whole life I took it for granted that it would be another way.

However, it''s disrespectful of him to push for any more than you''re willing to give, and keeping your last name as a middle name is beyond compromise since you will be known by his last name. I hope he sees this sooner rather than later.

 

[Alleyoop]

I haven''t read all the responses, but I wanted to add that I did exactly what you are proposing 10 years ago when I got married, and it turned out to be a great decision. Changing your name is really a pain, and if you have been working, own property or any "formal" things like this you will be glad you kept your last name as your middle. It has saved my butt from having to produce a marriage certificate SO MANY TIMES! From buying/selling a house, changing over airline miles, work associates and connections, Banking problems, etc... There have been plenty of times that still having my maiden name in there has made life easier. Let alone that for the first couple years I would call myself first-middle-last and it helped me transition to my new identity mentally. By the time I had kids I stopped addressing myself as FML, but it certainly got me over the hump.

HTH.

 

[bee*]

I do think that your FI is being unreasonable. You are taking his last name-I really don''t see what the problem is! I definitely think that you should do as you want with your last name.

 

[Octavia]

Zoe, if you want additional backup/proof that a lot of women are not happy to change their names, send your FI to http://kvetch.indiebride.com/ -- there''s an entire forum devoted to "Changing Your Name" with basically every permutation you can think of with regards to the issue.

 

[cammy85]

I never realized someone would be upset with the wife taking his surname but keeping the Maiden name as their middle name. My mom did that and I planned on doing so.

However I''m in a bit of a pickle with the middle and last names... my middle name is my mother''s maiden name, and my last name is my dad''s surname. I was going to drop the middle and tack on whatever last name I end up with. Then I realized no matter what I do, I will be dropping one side of my family off of my name. I guess it''s not a huge deal, but for some reason, I feel like I''d be disrespecting one side of the family. Considering I''m looking at a new last name that is quite the mouthful (ethnic, 6 syllables) Hyphenating would just be painful for anyone..

Quite the sticky pickle.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/5/2008 2:15:15 PM
Author: ephemery1

Date: 3/5/2008 11:11:32 AM
Author: TravelingGal

For the record, I kept mine.

TG, if you''re comfortable answering this, I''m curious... will TTot be given your last name or your husband''s?

All of our children (whether there be one or five) will have his last name. In a lot of things I am quite traditional...but strangely independent at the same time if that makes any sense.

 

[zoebartlett]

Date: 3/5/2008 8:09:01 AM
Author: Hudson_Hawk
FI and I have had this discussion before Z and it never ends well. He''s adament about me taking his name and I just don''t want to. Not that I love my last name, but it''s my identity, ya know? If I take his name then my name will be ''Stephanie Domenico'' and to me that sounds like a ''Jersey princess'' name (no offence implied), and that''s so not me. But I feel like it''s not something that needs to be blown up into a big deal. I''ll take his name in my personal life and I think I might keep my maiden name for work because my degrees are under my maiden name. I like your idea of making your maiden name your middle name. My mom did that and I honestly might as well.

Although then my initals would be SBD which would be kind of funny in an inappropriate kind of way.

I like how both names sound, to be honest (since we''ve met and I know your last name).

I don''t get SBD...what''s inappropriate about that? I''ve been trying to think of what it could stand for (thinking it''s crass or something) but I''m not having any luck.

 

[zoebartlett]

Date: 3/5/2008 10:58:27 AM
Author: decodelighted

Date: 3/5/2008 6:28:26 AM
Author: ZoeBartlett
BIH -- I think there''s been a misunderstanding. I haven''t asked (nor wanted) my FI to take my last name.

I think she meant that your negotiation tactics weren''t SEVERE enough. You have to start asking for WAY MORE than you actually want in order to end up somewhere in the middle.

The more I think about the situation the more uneasy I become with it. Is this the *only* issue of this sort (patriarchal, controlling etc?) I remember from another thread that you are starting to work on your VOWS & CEREMONY. I''d get to that if I were you -- make sure you *are* on the same page.

Good point about Jackie BOUVIER Kennedy. Not like this is a ''new'' idea??? My mom did it too -- in the FIFTIES. (ETA: SIXTIES, actually ... sorry, Mom!)

Thanks for explaining BIH''s view, Deco.

Yes, we are starting to work on our vows, and we ARE on the same page about everything except this. I know I began this thread to vent about something my FI and I don''t agree with, but he is not a controlling person. He''s not telling me what to do and/or demanding anything. He just doesn''t agree with my views on this one issue.

 

[zoebartlett]

Swimmer, I was thinking about your question today. The majority of my friends from elementary, high school, and college have kept their names. Two friends are divorced (well, one is remarried) but they went back to their maiden names. The friend who is remarried chose not to take her new husband''s name. They have a daughter and her middle name is my friend''s maiden name and her last name is my friend''s father''s name.

One friend and her husband chose to hyphenate their children''s last names and it works for them. Another friend''s son''s last name is his father''s (since my friend kept her name).

My coworkers/teacher friends have all changed their last names. I do think it''s easier to change your name when working with kis (if they understnad the whole name change thing). My teacher friends and myself have all been asked by our students what our last names will be.

So there''s quite the spectrum between my friends and how they chose to handle it.

 

[cara]

Perhaps if Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy Onassis is too modern, and Laura Ingalls Wilder is too professional, Katie Scarlett O''Hara Hamilton Kennedy Butler would do as a traditional example of the naming system common for married women in this country.

Even though I said your FI was being patriarchal on this issue on the last page, I didn''t mean to imply that meant he must be controlling or chauvinist in other areas. Well, he probably has gender-based expectations in other areas as well, as we all must, but it seems completely possible that disagreements on those issue haven''t come up yet and are merely lying in wait for the minefields that come later in life. Gender-based expectations and traditions seem to rear their heads unexpectedly at odd instances in people that otherwise are quite modern and egalitarian in their thinking. Whether or not you can talk about these things and come to rational compromises is the real issue for your relationship, and thus far I''d be a little worried.

I definitely found it to be an issue in wedding planning. FI just assumed that I would be doing most of the organizing since I was the "bride" and it was "my" day. Even though it turns out he had opinions about the wedding and had visions in his head of what the wedding should look like, and wanted me to implement them. So obviously we had to have discussions about whether he expected me to be "the bride" or his secretary or his wedding-planning partner, and if the latter, which tasks would he be in charge of??

Anyway I digress. It does make me sad when people say they are not feminists (def: a person who supports the advocacy of women''s rights on the grounds of social, political, and economic equality to men -- sure you''re not a feminist, Tgal?) or when women make certain sacrifices for the greater good (common family name, per se) and receive no credit for it, or worse, derision and the demand for more sacrifice, simply because they are female.

 

[ephemery1]

Date: 3/5/2008 7:14:35 PM
Author: cara

Anyway I digress. It does make me sad when people say they are not feminists (def: a person who supports the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of social, political, and economic equality to men -- sure you're not a feminist, Tgal?) or when women make certain sacrifices for the greater good (common family name, per se) and receive no credit for it, or worse, derision and the demand for more sacrifice, simply because they are female.

Well said, Cara! Too often "feminism" is thought of as fanatical and oversensitive, and dismissed as unnecessary nowadays. Our current generation is riding on the hard work of many women before us, and has the luxury of rejecting such ideas if they choose to... but often without realizing the damage this can bring to future generations. It doesn't mean giving up on traditional ideals (like taking the husband's last name), it means appreciating that we have the choice at all, and bringing awareness to those kinds of choices whenever possible. It is a respect thing, in many ways. And not just for other women (and those that came before us), but for humanity in general.

And TG, thanks for sharing your plan for all the TTots-to-come. I'm currently still debating that one myself...

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/5/2008 7:46:06 PM
Author: ephemery1

Date: 3/5/2008 7:14:35 PM
Author: cara

Anyway I digress. It does make me sad when people say they are not feminists (def: a person who supports the advocacy of women''s rights on the grounds of social, political, and economic equality to men -- sure you''re not a feminist, Tgal?) or when women make certain sacrifices for the greater good (common family name, per se) and receive no credit for it, or worse, derision and the demand for more sacrifice, simply because they are female.

Well said, Cara! Too often ''feminism'' is thought of as fanatical and oversensitive, and dismissed as unnecessary nowadays. Our current generation is riding on the hard work of many women before us, and has the luxury of rejecting such ideas if they choose to... but often without realizing the damage this can bring to future generations. It doesn''t mean giving up on traditional ideals (like taking the husband''s last name), it means appreciating that we have the choice at all, and bringing awareness to those kinds of choices whenever possible. It is a respect thing, in many ways. And not just for other women (and those that came before us), but for humanity in general.

And TG, thanks for sharing your plan for all the TTots-to-come. I''m currently still debating that one myself...

Yes, I''ve heard all that before. And if it means political, social, and economic equality to men, I would think most women would classify themselves as feminists.

If it means that do I think women can do everything that men do, then no. There are some things that men just do better. There are other things that women do better. I also think that there should be men only and women only clubs, etc.

I guess I''m not a radical feminist...

 

[ephemery1]

Date: 3/5/2008 8:16:48 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 3/5/2008 7:46:06 PM
Author: ephemery1

Date: 3/5/2008 7:14:35 PM
Author: cara

Anyway I digress. It does make me sad when people say they are not feminists (def: a person who supports the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of social, political, and economic equality to men -- sure you're not a feminist, Tgal?) or when women make certain sacrifices for the greater good (common family name, per se) and receive no credit for it, or worse, derision and the demand for more sacrifice, simply because they are female.

Well said, Cara! Too often 'feminism' is thought of as fanatical and oversensitive, and dismissed as unnecessary nowadays. Our current generation is riding on the hard work of many women before us, and has the luxury of rejecting such ideas if they choose to... but often without realizing the damage this can bring to future generations. It doesn't mean giving up on traditional ideals (like taking the husband's last name), it means appreciating that we have the choice at all, and bringing awareness to those kinds of choices whenever possible. It is a respect thing, in many ways. And not just for other women (and those that came before us), but for humanity in general.

And TG, thanks for sharing your plan for all the TTots-to-come. I'm currently still debating that one myself...

Yes, I've heard all that before. And if it means political, social, and economic equality to men, I would think most women would classify themselves as feminists.

If it means that do I think women can do everything that men do, then no. There are some things that men just do better. There are other things that women do better. I also think that there should be men only and women only clubs, etc.

I guess I'm not a radical feminist...

Definition of "feminism" from Merriam-Webster:
1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

I think acting on behalf of women's rights and interests means acknowledging that there are legitimate differences between sexes (and definitely some things that each sex does better than the other!), and celebrating those differences appropriately (with clubs, single-sex education, what have you). Doesn't imply women are better, doesn't imply women are the same as men. Just equal in significance. So see, TG? You ARE a feminist in the very truest sense.

OK I'm done digressing, I promise... sorry, Zoe!

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/5/2008 9:03:01 PM
Author: ephemery1

Date: 3/5/2008 8:16:48 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 3/5/2008 7:46:06 PM
Author: ephemery1

Date: 3/5/2008 7:14:35 PM
Author: cara

Anyway I digress. It does make me sad when people say they are not feminists (def: a person who supports the advocacy of women''s rights on the grounds of social, political, and economic equality to men -- sure you''re not a feminist, Tgal?) or when women make certain sacrifices for the greater good (common family name, per se) and receive no credit for it, or worse, derision and the demand for more sacrifice, simply because they are female.

Well said, Cara! Too often ''feminism'' is thought of as fanatical and oversensitive, and dismissed as unnecessary nowadays. Our current generation is riding on the hard work of many women before us, and has the luxury of rejecting such ideas if they choose to... but often without realizing the damage this can bring to future generations. It doesn''t mean giving up on traditional ideals (like taking the husband''s last name), it means appreciating that we have the choice at all, and bringing awareness to those kinds of choices whenever possible. It is a respect thing, in many ways. And not just for other women (and those that came before us), but for humanity in general.

And TG, thanks for sharing your plan for all the TTots-to-come. I''m currently still debating that one myself...

Yes, I''ve heard all that before. And if it means political, social, and economic equality to men, I would think most women would classify themselves as feminists.

If it means that do I think women can do everything that men do, then no. There are some things that men just do better. There are other things that women do better. I also think that there should be men only and women only clubs, etc.

I guess I''m not a radical feminist...

Definition of ''feminism'' from Merriam-Webster:
1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 : organized activity on behalf of women''s rights and interests

I think acting on behalf of women''s rights and interests means acknowledging that there are legitimate differences between sexes (and definitely some things that each sex does better than the other!), and celebrating those differences appropriately (with clubs, single-sex education, what have you). Doesn''t imply women are better, doesn''t imply women are the same as men. Just equal in significance. So see, TG? You ARE a feminist in the very truest sense.

OK I''m done digressing, I promise... sorry, Zoe!

That''s fine. I can live with that definition.

As with anything, I think there are varying degrees.

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 3/5/2008 7:14:35 PM
Author: cara
Anyway I digress. It does make me sad when people say they are not feminists (def: a person who supports the advocacy of women''s rights on the grounds of social, political, and economic equality to men -- sure you''re not a feminist, Tgal?) or when women make certain sacrifices for the greater good (common family name, per se) and receive no credit for it, or worse, derision and the demand for more sacrifice, simply because they are female.

It makes me sad/angry, too. I always see and hear "I''m not a feminist, but..." and I just don''t understand it. I just want to say "Oh, you don''t care about the right to vote, the ability to own property or equal pay for equal work? That''s cool I guess." Because seriously, that is what feminism is about. Equality. Not hairy arm pits and butch lesbians.

Many women don''t seem to realize that, and it''s really a shame, and also kind of ridiculous. This attitude is one of the major reasons that the U.S. is still so far behind the rest of the industrialized world when it comes to things like paid maternity and paternity leave and childcare, two issues that affect many women, many of whom would likely start off a sentence with "I''m not a feminist, but..."

 

[cara]

I got my definition from my Mac dashboard dictionary

Lazy I am.

Obviously there are a few biological imperatives distinguishing men and women. But most differences are not absolutes, they are subtleties, and they are overwhelmed by the differences between individuals. Men may be better mechanics than women on average, but Anne could still be a better mechanic than Mike.

I'm for single-sex sports teams and single-sex schools (in some instances), but it gets tricky fast. Try making partner at a law firm when you aren't allowed in the library (my grandmother wasn't!) or schmoozing up a golf-loving potential client when you aren't allowed on the golf course. Or opening Anne's Auto Shop. Single-sex clubs and schools can be empowering or restrictive or both at the same time.

Enough hijacking! Zoe, good luck. I hope you bring this up again with your FI and get him to at least appreciate that you are losing something by changing your name, even if you are gaining something as well.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/5/2008 9:43:27 PM
Author: thing2of2

Date: 3/5/2008 7:14:35 PM
Author: cara
Anyway I digress. It does make me sad when people say they are not feminists (def: a person who supports the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of social, political, and economic equality to men -- sure you're not a feminist, Tgal?) or when women make certain sacrifices for the greater good (common family name, per se) and receive no credit for it, or worse, derision and the demand for more sacrifice, simply because they are female.

It makes me sad/angry, too. I always see and hear 'I'm not a feminist, but...' and I just don't understand it. I just want to say 'Oh, you don't care about the right to vote, the ability to own property or equal pay for equal work? That's cool I guess.' Because seriously, that is what feminism is about. Equality. Not hairy arm pits and butch lesbians.

Many women don't seem to realize that, and it's really a shame, and also kind of ridiculous. This attitude is one of the major reasons that the U.S. is still so far behind the rest of the industrialized world when it comes to things like paid maternity and paternity leave and childcare, two issues that affect many women, many of whom would likely start off a sentence with 'I'm not a feminist, but...'

To each her own my dear...for me it depends on the definition.

I guess my problem is I don't get sad or angry about too much....

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Zoe, I am obviously from a different generation and very traditional, but at the time I married, it was the "proper" thing for educated women to take the husband''s last name and use their maiden name for their middle name (drop the original middle name). Another well known example is Hillary Rodham Clinton, etc. I sign my name with my first name, middle initial from maiden name, and last name same as husband. So please tell him that IS the traditional way to do it!!!

(I think it is interesting that so many young women are choosing to keep their last names with the idea in mind that there are so many divorces. I almost think it is setting an expectation that the marriage is temporary to begin with.)