The Ring or the Sentiment?

[MishB]

Date: 5/8/2009 9:33:33 PM
Author: musey

Date: 5/7/2009 8:59:43 AM

Author: MishB

I think a lot of the problem these days is women want to have it both ways - get the exact ring they want, but have it put on their finger during the ultimate romantic proposal. And that proposal had better be a surprise, but it had better not be one minute over the ''deadline''.

I think that''s a HUUUUUUGE over-generalization. In my experience, these women you''re referring to make up an extremely small portion of the overall female population - but maybe we just run in different circles

I have only ONCE in my real life heard of a woman like you describe above (and she is of questionable character anyway.

No actually, it''s based on a lot of things I''ve read on this forum.

 

[Imdanny]

In the UK it is far more normal for the couple to shop together AFTER the proposal. Members of our Royal Family have all chosen their engagement rings together.

They''re batting 1 for 4 so I wouldn''t take advice from them on the subject.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I think it is a good sign for the marriage if the guy is so into pleasing the girl that he does whatever it takes to find out what SHE loves and then finds the best quality at the best price and gets it for her. He has a budget to work with, but he should get the setting she loves and a diamond of the best quality he can affored with her preferences in mind (smaller stone with higher color and clarity or larger stone with lower color and clarity, etc.)

My daughter is dating someone that I think she will marry, and she has shown me a couple of settings that she loves. So when he gets ready to look, if he asks me I will be able to show him the styles she likes and he can then totally surprise her with something she loves. To me, this is the very best way to do it. Find out from someone else what she likes as long as you can trust them not to tell.

The worst scenarios I have ever seen on here are when the guy chooses something HE likes (more masculine or modern) without regard to her preferences. That gives me a sad feeling for the marriage.

The other option is to buy the best diamond possible and set it in an inexpensive solitaire for the proposal and later let her choose a permanent setting.

 

[Pandora II]

Date: 5/9/2009 6:18:20 AM
Author: Imdanny

In the UK it is far more normal for the couple to shop together AFTER the proposal. Members of our Royal Family have all chosen their engagement rings together.

They''re batting 1 for 4 so I wouldn''t take advice from them on the subject.

LOL! Very true....

But still the case that what one person considers ''traditional'' isn''t necessarily what many others would. A bit like considering that a ''diamond'' is traditional and other stones are not. Boy, was that advertising exec at De Beers worth his weight in...diamonds probably.

Or the idea that wearing white for a wedding dress is traditional - Queen Victoria started that trend... when exactly does something become traditional? After 100 years of common usage? 10 years?

Reading through this thread, I think people are pretty fixed in their own personal views of how e-rings should be given and the sentiments involved. Horses for courses...

I just think it''s very risky to drop a sizeable amount of $$$$ on anything as a ''suprise'' gift for someone and just expect that they will love it. My husband knew me well enough to know that I would enjoy designing my ring with him far more than he would have ''enjoyed'' the terrifying ordeal of finding me something I would like - plus he knew I wouldn''t want a diamond and coloured stones are a LOT harder to choose with many more variables.

I would also hazard a guess that very few of the regular PS posters were/are unhappy with their e-rings as most of us probably had a fair degree of input. The ''I hate my e-ring'' threads are nearly always a first post.

 

[Sharon101]

Date: 5/9/2009 8:58:05 AM
Author: diamondseeker2006
I think it is a good sign for the marriage if the guy is so into pleasing the girl that he does whatever it takes to find out what SHE loves and then finds the best quality at the best price and gets it for her. He has a budget to work with, but he should get the setting she loves and a diamond of the best quality he can affored with her preferences in mind (smaller stone with higher color and clarity or larger stone with lower color and clarity, etc.)

My daughter is dating someone that I think she will marry, and she has shown me a couple of settings that she loves. So when he gets ready to look, if he asks me I will be able to show him the styles she likes and he can then totally surprise her with something she loves. To me, this is the very best way to do it. Find out from someone else what she likes as long as you can trust them not to tell.

The worst scenarios I have ever seen on here are when the guy chooses something HE likes (more masculine or modern) without regard to her preferences. That gives me a sad feeling for the marriage.

The other option is to buy the best diamond possible and set it in an inexpensive solitaire for the proposal and later let her choose a permanent setting.

So true and so well said.

Often I think about how some people just seem to know how to get the best out of life and use their brains to work out how to act in a way that is so win win for themselves and those around them.

I put it down to three things. One is definatey to do with intelligence and being able to use reason. Stupid people tend to always do thinks in the dumbest fashion, arrive at the wrong conclusion, misjudge the situation or be very inflexible etc.

I also think age and experience can make one more mellow and to be better able to prioritise what is important in life.

Plus, I think finally, over and above the other 2 factors is that people have a nature that they were born with. Some guys are just more kind, caring and giving in their inherent nature (as are females) and some are just more selfish. Im talking about the way a person is wired, both male and female.

I think that guys who buy rings that their partners dislike is a red flag to me that some or all of these factors are present. To me I am sad not because of the ring itself but because what it tells me about the guy.

 

[musey]

Date: 5/9/2009 5:37:18 AM
Author: MishB

Date: 5/8/2009 9:33:33 PM
Author: musey

Date: 5/7/2009 8:59:43 AM
Author: MishB
I think a lot of the problem these days is women want to have it both ways - get the exact ring they want, but have it put on their finger during the ultimate romantic proposal. And that proposal had better be a surprise, but it had better not be one minute over the 'deadline'.

I think that's a HUUUUUUGE over-generalization. In my experience, these women you're referring to make up an extremely small portion of the overall female population - but maybe we just run in different circles

I have only ONCE in my real life heard of a woman like you describe above (and she is of questionable character anyway.

No actually, it's based on a lot of things I've read on this forum.

I'm not talking about the women who find their way to PS, I'm talking about the general female population. As others have pointed out, PS is not a good representation of the general female attitude toward jewelry.

Even still, what you describe above is not what I have experienced on PS as the majority. A woman who posts on here saying that she wants to "get the exact ring she wants, but have it put on her finger during the ultimate romantic proposal. And that proposal had better be a surprise, but it had better not be one minute over the 'deadline'" almost always gets a reality check from other female members. That is not the type of attitude that is encouraged here, which obviously means it's not held by the majority of women here. The people you are describing may be more common on PS than in the "real world" (that is my opinion), but they are still not in the majority. Therefore they are outliers - not the ones to base a general opinion of the female attitude on.

Also, as a side note, there has been great discussion of late on the topic of the LIW section and how its average poster seems quite different from the LIWs that came 1+ years before them, and even MORE different from the average adult woman. So if that's what you're basing your ideas on, that fact should come into play as well.


For the record, my opinion is coming from the perspective of a female who has been reading and posting on "this forum" for over 2.5 years, first in the LIW section, then in the brides section, and now as a 'graduated' BIW.

 

[Moh 10]

Some gals would consider ANYTHING he picked to be perfect!
Other gals must have the ring that they want.

Both are right.
Expecting everyone to be the same is problematic.

 

[musey]

Date: 5/9/2009 12:17:43 PM
Author: Moh 10
Some gals would consider ANYTHING he picked to be perfect!

Other gals must have the ring that they want.


Both are right.

Expecting everyone to be the same is problematic.

Yes.

 

[HopeDream]

HD’s E-ring rant – Not saying how society should be, Just calling it like it is.

1) The Engagement ring as a social signal -->This is the original reason for engagement rings.p]
An engagement ring is by definition a status symbol - whether you like it or not - and it''s purpose is to signal that the lady is reserved.
It functions mostly to signal social status in terms of appropriate interaction with virile males who are not her intended. It publicly signals that the woman is especially valued (and hopefully loved) by someone. (This raises her social value in the public eye and is likely to contribute to her being viewed as more of an "adult" and a full participant in society) It reminds her and others of her social role.

It can also signal home region [Eg. "under two would never do"- the wealthy set on the east coast USA", "Anything over .5ct is a big stone"- much of Europe], socioeconomic status of the intended bridegroom ["He got my ring at Walmart, and it''s a real diamond too!" - low income but happy folks all over the place], and may display something of the taste of the lady herself , if she has picked it out [Fashion forward ladies who pick out an exotic colored stones, or have something made to reflect their tastes, people who choose an iconic style like traditional Tiffany or Harry Winston rings, etc.]

When women talk about wanting a specific ring, but would be happy with any piece of frozen spit, it is the social signal that they are desiring the most - the ability to also lay claim to her man and publicly say that he is more than a boyfriend (Boyfriend is a broad term referring to the male counterpart in any relationship from awkward grade 6 crush, to common law husband who hasn''t proposed.
Generally the longer the relationship the more socially awkward the term Boyfriend becomes, as people tend to associate it with the beginning stages, and first blush of a romantic relationship; not the long-term commitment it has slowly evolved into as increasing divorce rates, and modern independent values lead long term couples to shy away from marriage.

2) Engagement rings are permanent: She will use it and love it for the rest of her life.

-->This is why the specific kind of engagement ring is important.p]

The thing about the engagement ring is that in a perfect world, or if chosen correctly will never come off her finger for the rest of her life. (This is my personal vision of what an engagement ring should be, I know that in practice it will come off for dirty chores, or be shut away for special occasions if it''s particularly ornate or scratches the children, be removed due to divorce etc.)

Like an ear tag or a tattoo it is expected to become a permanent part of her appearance, unlike a tattoo is is placed in a location that is very hard to cover up and should be seen on a daily basis by herself and others for the rest of her married life (to some extent this applies to men''s wedding bands , but doesn''t get linked to his value - see below).

3) Engagement rings show value -->This is part of the reason she should be involved in picking it out p]

Like it or not, subconsciously people associate physical appearance with economic value and engagement rings are no exception (Reaction to the ring''s appearance can differ: You can choose to admire high quality as extravagance and consequently dismiss the person, or admire the high quality and further value the person, but the point is that you will notice, at least on occasion).

When people see a high quality ring (be it big, ornate, sparkly, unique, however you choose to define it) they usually associate a higher value with the woman and often link the ring''s apparent value with the value of the relationship between the woman and her man. A nice ring signals to the woman''s family that the man values the woman and is willing to provide the necessary resources to support to her.

Sales people will key in to observable economic signals including the engagement ring and will tailor their service (or lack thereof), and their sales technique to the perceived value of the woman as shown by her ring.

The value comparison of her ring to other rings will continue for the rest of her life - Every time she see''s someone else’s ring she will be comparing it to her own (mostly subconsciously, but on occasion consciously). A well chosen ring will hold its value throughout all future comparison if it has been well chosen ("Hers is bigger, but mine is sparklier", "hers has more diamonds, but mine was customer designed by my husband and is unique to me", "my warm diamond is so much nicer that cold looking white one", "My ascher is smaller but way more interesting than boring round brilliants" etc.)

If the ring has anything about it that she hasn''t learned to live with (found a good justification for) early on these lifelong comparisons may erode her personal value of her ring to the point that she no longer wears it. It is only at this point that the ring becomes the expensive traditional piece of functionless frippery that men are so often to complain about - an unused and unloved waste of money.

This is where your 4"C"s come in, Tiffany, Cartier, Harry Winston all market to the value argument

4) Engagement Rings are Sentimental -->No matter what it looks like it will always remind her of youp]
The engagement ring is a direct signal to the woman of what the man thinks of her or how he values her
(Forget saying it with flowers, this is saying it with diamonds).
It is a gift from her beloved and will remind her of him and their relationship every time she looks at it for the rest of her life. It is a physical reminder of her intended that is with her all the time and will always be with her even when her love is not (even in the bathroom, or on a girls night out).

Many people on PS tend to upgrade their engagement rings over time, but I don''t believe this is the norm. Over time the engagement and later the wedding ring take on a more and more potent symbolic role as a metaphor/reminder of the relationship, as the rings wear and the relationship evolves. They can become important emotional talismans - like a security blanket or a teddy bear - much more than just physical objects. Often they are kept in families an passed down as a reminder of family ties, past happiness and the sincere hope that the next relationship that they will come to represent will be as happy and successful as previous ones.

You only need to look to the perceived taboo of a man giving a ring (or even just the same diamond) from a previous failed relationship to his new intended, to see the power of sentiment. (This is because it will always be the first woman''s stone, even if she only looked at it once and said no, it was chosen for her, and the second woman will compete with the ghost of his past relationship every time she see that stone).

DeBeers and many other diamond retailers use the emotional argument "a diamond is forever".

Conclusion: -->The ring or the sentiment? BOTH!!!!p]
Engagement rings send a complex signal about the woman, the man, who they are, and the nature of their relationship. If the engagement ring is to send out the right message it is probably best if both parties are involved in its selection or there is the risk of the ring being hidden away in a drawer somewhere.

Cheers,
HD

 

[4ever]

I personaly think that the ring should be a joint desision. I felt no desire to feel surprised with a ring (I don''t really want somthing that I wear for the rest of my life to be a surprise). I think having the ring as too much of a surprise can make the proposal about saying yes to the ring rather then then the person.

Having said that, I also wouldn''t like a ringless proposal, only because if you tell some one your engaged these days, the first words out of their mouth would likely be "wooo, lets see the ring" rather then congradulations, I''m so happy for you.The sentimant of the effort one would go to picking out the ring his lady would like is lovely, but I''d prefer he put that thought into a meaningful proposal instead.

I really loved ring shopping with FF. It was so much fun for me and he really enjoyed it as well funnily enough. It made the process about spending time together, comprimise, communication and commitment. As a result we both really LOVE the ring we chose.

 

[pter]

Date: 5/6/2009 1:46:58 PM
Author: Gypsy
In fact, it''s an act of creation of compromise and of unity that, I think, is more romantic that the guy sweating it out alone while the woman fumes waiting to see if he''s going to come up to scratch.

I quoted that because that''s exactly how I feel! It''s making me feel as if part of the process is to already understand what she likes, and if I''m mistaken about it she''ll be upset.

 

[loveloveloveit]

I think it all comes down to who you are! My husband proposed with a ring and I love that he chose the style and had it made for me. Personally, a larger diamond would have been nice however he was working with one I already had at the time and there didn''t seem much point spending a tonne of money just to get another one ... so, 2 remakes later and I have finally realised that it actually WAS really important to me what he chose and I never should have changed it in the first place! But, that''s just me.

A friend of mine recently received a 10 year anniversary gift from her husband, a gorgeous 2+ct solitaire diamond ring with matching wedder and she''s wearing it as an alternative to her original band and er which were bought when their budget was much smaller, but she still loves them and will keep them for when that style comes back into fashion.

I haven''t helped here, it really depends on the person/people getting engaged if you ask me. I therefore agree, the ring and the sentiment go together regardless of whether the ring was chosen together or apart.

HornAround - you have made me laugh (and look for the design you have chosen but there''s no pictures on here to satisfy my need to see what you''ve chosen to surprise her with ... argh!!)

 

[HornAround]

Date: 5/10/2009 9:17:34 AM
Author: loveloveloveit

HornAround - you have made me laugh (and look for the design you have chosen but there''s no pictures on here to satisfy my need to see what you''ve chosen to surprise her with ... argh!!)

. I will get some pics up shortly.

 

[DiamondFlame]

Nice write up, HD. I guess different people belong in different camps... the trick is knowing which one your FF belongs to, eh?

 

[musey]

Date: 5/10/2009 3:25:00 PM
Author: DiamondFlame
Nice write up, HD. I guess different people belong in different camps... the trick is knowing which one your FF belongs to, eh?

Yep, nothing else to it, in my opinion.

Any answer to this question is "wrong" for someone, but it's also "right" for someone else. With that understanding, it does seem pretty silly to debate this topic in thread after thread after thread, doesn't it?

 

[mausketeer]

Date: 5/9/2009 5:26:24 PM
Author: HopeDream

HD’s E-ring rant – Not saying how society should be, Just calling it like it is.

1) The Engagement ring as a social signal -->This is the original reason for engagement rings.<--

An engagement ring is by definition a status symbol - whether you like it or not - and it''s purpose is to signal that the lady is reserved.
It functions mostly to signal social status in terms of appropriate interaction with virile males who are not her intended. It publicly signals that the woman is especially valued (and hopefully loved) by someone. (This raises her social value in the public eye and is likely to contribute to her being viewed as more of an ''adult'' and a full participant in society) It reminds her and others of her social role.

It can also signal home region [Eg. ''under two would never do''- the wealthy set on the east coast USA'', ''Anything over .5ct is a big stone''- much of Europe], socioeconomic status of the intended bridegroom [''He got my ring at Walmart, and it''s a real diamond too!'' - low income but happy folks all over the place], and may display something of the taste of the lady herself , if she has picked it out [Fashion forward ladies who pick out an exotic colored stones, or have something made to reflect their tastes, people who choose an iconic style like traditional Tiffany or Harry Winston rings, etc.]

When women talk about wanting a specific ring, but would be happy with any piece of frozen spit, it is the social signal that they are desiring the most - the ability to also lay claim to her man and publicly say that he is more than a boyfriend (Boyfriend is a broad term referring to the male counterpart in any relationship from awkward grade 6 crush, to common law husband who hasn''t proposed.
Generally the longer the relationship the more socially awkward the term Boyfriend becomes, as people tend to associate it with the beginning stages, and first blush of a romantic relationship; not the long-term commitment it has slowly evolved into as increasing divorce rates, and modern independent values lead long term couples to shy away from marriage.

2) Engagement rings are permanent: She will use it and love it for the rest of her life.

-->This is why the specific kind of engagement ring is important.<--

The thing about the engagement ring is that in a perfect world, or if chosen correctly will never come off her finger for the rest of her life. (This is my personal vision of what an engagement ring should be, I know that in practice it will come off for dirty chores, or be shut away for special occasions if it''s particularly ornate or scratches the children, be removed due to divorce etc.)

Like an ear tag or a tattoo it is expected to become a permanent part of her appearance, unlike a tattoo is is placed in a location that is very hard to cover up and should be seen on a daily basis by herself and others for the rest of her married life (to some extent this applies to men''s wedding bands , but doesn''t get linked to his value - see below).

3) Engagement rings show value -->This is part of the reason she should be involved in picking it out <--

Like it or not, subconsciously people associate physical appearance with economic value and engagement rings are no exception (Reaction to the ring''s appearance can differ: You can choose to admire high quality as extravagance and consequently dismiss the person, or admire the high quality and further value the person, but the point is that you will notice, at least on occasion).

When people see a high quality ring (be it big, ornate, sparkly, unique, however you choose to define it) they usually associate a higher value with the woman and often link the ring''s apparent value with the value of the relationship between the woman and her man. A nice ring signals to the woman''s family that the man values the woman and is willing to provide the necessary resources to support to her.

Sales people will key in to observable economic signals including the engagement ring and will tailor their service (or lack thereof), and their sales technique to the perceived value of the woman as shown by her ring.

The value comparison of her ring to other rings will continue for the rest of her life - Every time she see''s someone else’s ring she will be comparing it to her own (mostly subconsciously, but on occasion consciously). A well chosen ring will hold its value throughout all future comparison if it has been well chosen (''Hers is bigger, but mine is sparklier'', ''hers has more diamonds, but mine was customer designed by my husband and is unique to me'', ''my warm diamond is so much nicer that cold looking white one'', ''My ascher is smaller but way more interesting than boring round brilliants'' etc.)

If the ring has anything about it that she hasn''t learned to live with (found a good justification for) early on these lifelong comparisons may erode her personal value of her ring to the point that she no longer wears it. It is only at this point that the ring becomes the expensive traditional piece of functionless frippery that men are so often to complain about - an unused and unloved waste of money.

This is where your 4''C''s come in, Tiffany, Cartier, Harry Winston all market to the value argument

4) Engagement Rings are Sentimental -->No matter what it looks like it will always remind her of you<--

The engagement ring is a direct signal to the woman of what the man thinks of her or how he values her
(Forget saying it with flowers, this is saying it with diamonds).
It is a gift from her beloved and will remind her of him and their relationship every time she looks at it for the rest of her life. It is a physical reminder of her intended that is with her all the time and will always be with her even when her love is not (even in the bathroom, or on a girls night out).

Many people on PS tend to upgrade their engagement rings over time, but I don''t believe this is the norm. Over time the engagement and later the wedding ring take on a more and more potent symbolic role as a metaphor/reminder of the relationship, as the rings wear and the relationship evolves. They can become important emotional talismans - like a security blanket or a teddy bear - much more than just physical objects. Often they are kept in families an passed down as a reminder of family ties, past happiness and the sincere hope that the next relationship that they will come to represent will be as happy and successful as previous ones.

You only need to look to the perceived taboo of a man giving a ring (or even just the same diamond) from a previous failed relationship to his new intended, to see the power of sentiment. (This is because it will always be the first woman''s stone, even if she only looked at it once and said no, it was chosen for her, and the second woman will compete with the ghost of his past relationship every time she see that stone).

DeBeers and many other diamond retailers use the emotional argument ''a diamond is forever''.

Conclusion: -->The ring or the sentiment? BOTH!!!!<--

Engagement rings send a complex signal about the woman, the man, who they are, and the nature of their relationship. If the engagement ring is to send out the right message it is probably best if both parties are involved in its selection or there is the risk of the ring being hidden away in a drawer somewhere.

Cheers,
HD

Thank you HD for that thoughful post!!!!!! That was amazing!

 

[Ara Ann]

LOL, I thought of this thread at my DOCTOR'S office today!

I noticed the doctor's e-ring, a large, very white cushion cut (at least a 1.5 ct) set in a modern style wide platinum band, X prong head...it was a beautiful ring, and I'm sure cost a small fortune. I complimented her and said how pretty it was...she thanked me and looked a little sad, like she had some 'regret' in a way and explained she got it not long ago and was trying to get used to it...but the interesting thing is, she really liked MY e-ring ring style and said was actually envious of IT, she said it was the style of ring she really wanted...I almost fell over, considering my ring is a very reasonably priced LOGR split shank halo! I could tell, her fiance probably surprised her with her e-ring and even though it was gorgeous AND expensive, it obviously wasn't what she really wanted.

So, if a guy wants to propose with a ring, it is important for him to get input on what his gf likes/wants before he buys it for her!! It only makes sense to at least have some clue as to what SHE wants when making such an important purchase, regardless of the cost.

 

[trillionaire]

The sentiment is important, the ring is not so important. Sorry, that''s how I feel.

HOWEVER, by accepting a proposal, we accept the sentiment. But if you want me to wear something for the rest of my life, I''d like to like it. I''m a woman. I am picky and aesthetic, and THAT is not personal. So men, keep the reciept and propose within the return period. Trust me, the small slight to your ego is going to pale in comparison to the bubbly bliss, joy and happiness she will be exuding when she has ''exactly what she wants''! And she will brag and gush about you, and it will be worth it. I promise.