The story of my ring's grading issue

[gm89uk]

I think if it are concerned about the thread, keeping it provides invaluable advice to other buyers. Possibly rename the title to add "- Resolved" at the end?

Yours is not a unique story and pretending it didn't happen will not help others going through the same thing. If anything, the journey you went through is what makes this ring so special!

 

[JT123]

I had a similar situation with a WF I and it was appraised by a reputable gemologist (recommended on PS)as a solid J. In her mind it was a no question about it,J color !I was surprised when I returned my the diamond and it was relisted as a I color. I think it’s good to keep this thread open

 

[Siamese Kitty]

I had a similar situation with a WF I and it was appraised by a reputable gemologist (recommended on PS)as a solid J. In her mind it was a no question about it,J color !I was surprised when I returned my the diamond and it was relisted as a I color. I think it’s good to keep this thread open

I've seen this experience brought up in several threads and your story is no less valuable than someone else's. And I'm sure it's frustrating to order what you thought was a sure thing, pay for appraisal, and have them say something you weren't expecting to hear and that ultimately caused a big inconvenience.

That said, I think the issue here is more with AGS than Whiteflash if the stone was graded incorrectly. Color is a range (ranges are wider as you get lower), people can be wrong, stones can be on the cusp, etc. What if WF sent the stone back and it came back higher again? What grade should they use to sell it? (I'm not saying they did this, but hypothetically.) My appraiser always tells me his professional opinion is just that, an opinion. Even if he believes a stone is better or worse (and he will tell me), at the end of the day he notes the GIA/AGS grade on the appraisal when insuring for insurance. He defers to them. I would think WF would do the same?

FWIW, my AGS Whiteflash stones have have all appraised their stated grade or in several cases, better, with regard to color/clarity. I have had eight stones from them and six ACAs ranging in color from E to I. On the other hand, I've had two GIA stones appraise differently-one on color, the other on clarity. All of this to say that anecdotal experience is still great to have, but not law imo.

 

[JT123]

Yeah I agree it seems to be a problem with AGS.The appraiser I used said they are softer on color grading.
I think it’s wise to get a diamond independently appraised. (also good for insurance purposes)

 

[whitewave]

Yeah I agree it seems to be a problem with AGS.The appraiser I used said they are softer on color grading.
I think it’s wise to get a diamond independently appraised. (also good for insurance purposes)

For my original diamond, my appraiser said it was an H. Guess what? It’s a D. Imo, unless you send it to AGS or GIA, it’s just a guess.

 

[JT123]

For my original diamond, my appraiser said it was an H. Guess what? It’s a D. Imo, unless you send it to AGS or GIA, it’s just a guess.

One day I hope to have a D!
Nope, not a guess.I used a independent appraiser that I found in the search feature on here for “recommended” independent appraisers. This is what Pricescope recommends buyers do to make sure their diamond matches the AGS/GIA certificate.
I noticed the tint as well. https://www.pricescope.com/appraisers

 

[whitewave]

That is awesome!
Nope, not a guess.I used a independent appraiser that I found in the search feature on here for “recommended” independent appraisers. This is what Pricescope recommends buyers do to make sure their diamond matches the AGS/GIA certificate.
I noticed the tint as well. The appraiser I used is listed on here ,in the search feature,for PriceScope recommended independent appraisers.

It’s still a guess, an educated guess, yes. GIA and AGS would be the final word. Could it be an I? Maybe. It would be interested to know how GIA would have graded it.

To me, a G is slightly tinted. An H is noticeably tinted, an I to me is getting yellow and a J is yellow to me. But I keenly see tint.

My asscher is a GIA G and mounted etc on some days the tint bothers me. Not often, but sometimes.

 

[whitewave]

And, yes, to me a D is KILLER. I just love the bright icy white.

 

[kmoro]

I had a similar situation with a WF I and it was appraised by a reputable gemologist (recommended on PS)as a solid J. In her mind it was a no question about it,J color !I was surprised when I returned my the diamond and it was relisted as a I color. I think it’s good to keep this thread open

It’s important to keep in mind that there is a range within each color category, and the lower you go in colour, the wider the range of the category. @JT123, if I’m not mistaken, your gemologist said that the ACA was “closer to a J”, which does not mean they thought it was a J colour, it means that in the range of I colour, that diamond was at the low end of the range. I apologize if I’m mistaken in my recollection, but I think the quote was “closer to a J” not “solid J” - but you were the one that was there, so please forgive me if I’m misinterpreting your older post. Also, I would expect anyone to notice the tint in an I given the right light and angle. However, if you’re unhappy with the tint, you’re unhappy with the tint - it doesn’t matter what the report says. When diamonds are on the border-line like that, even if the appraiser did say “solid J”, that does not mean the lab was wrong in saying it was an “I.” Labs do nothing but grade diamonds based on master sets, and AGS and GIA are more reliable than any appraiser. I’m not saying that lab reports can never be wrong, but the frequency of error is expected to be lower than with appraisers - again, many diamonds are on the borderline of colour categories and it’s not always an easy call. Even in this thread, I believe the verdict on the colour of the diamond was that it was indeed a G - but the title can’t be changed and it seems everyone still assumes it to be true.

Willy,
I did have a chance to review the stone. July spent several hours in the showroom comparing a variety of diamonds, including comparing the 1.94 AGS G VS2 to a 2.05 G VS2 GIA.
I wanted to give July a chance to post her observations here before I commented. As she mentions, she saw only subtle differences between any of the stones. I will let July speak for for herself, but I can say that she decided on another diamond, a bit larger in size.

For my part, I have reviewed the 1.94 AGS G in comparison with the 2.05 GIA G
( https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3784278.htm )
And they are very, very close. In my opinion they are both correctly graded. But I could be persuaded that the AGS is a low G and the GIA a high G.

Having said that, there are still stories like @mrs-b where there have been multiple instances of soft colour grading by AGS. Others have stories where the GIA grading was too high. I think it’s the nature of diamond grading that some of these discrepancies are going to exist - unless someone can replace human grading, I don’t think this can be avoided completely.

Just another two cents.

 

[MamaBee]

It’s important to keep in mind that there is a range within each color category, and the lower you go in colour, the wider the range of the category. @JT123, if I’m not mistaken, your gemologist said that the ACA was “closer to a J”, which does not mean they thought it was a J colour, it means that in the range of I colour, that diamond was at the low end of the range. I apologize if I’m mistaken in my recollection, but I think the quote was “closer to a J” not “solid J” - but you were the one that was there, so please forgive me if I’m misinterpreting your older post. Also, I would expect anyone to notice the tint in an I given the right light and angle. However, if you’re unhappy with the tint, you’re unhappy with the tint - it doesn’t matter what the report says. When diamonds are on the border-line like that, even if the appraiser did say “solid J”, that does not mean the lab was wrong in saying it was an “I.” Labs do nothing but grade diamonds based on master sets, and AGS and GIA are more reliable than any appraiser. I’m not saying that lab reports can never be wrong, but the frequency of error is expected to be lower than with appraisers - again, many diamonds are on the borderline of colour categories and it’s not always an easy call. Even in this thread, I believe the verdict on the colour of the diamond was that it was indeed a G - but the title can’t be changed and it seems everyone still assumes it to be true.



Having said that, there are still stories like @mrs-b where there have been multiple instances of soft colour grading by AGS. Others have stories where the GIA grading was too high. I think it’s the nature of diamond grading that some of these discrepancies are going to exist - unless someone can replace human grading, I don’t think this can be avoided completely.

Just another two cents.

I agree..I have an alternate cushion diamond that is a GIA graded H. It doesn’t appear to be an H to me..It seems to be a low I. My MRB engagement ring is graded G by AGS. It is a low G closer to F but not quite...stated by many appraisers..I notice a HUGE difference between my H cushion and G MRB. AGS is supposedly softer on color grading but not in my case..

 

[Dancing Fire]

IMO, if the stone is already mounted it is almost impossible for the appraiser to match the color accurately against his/her master set.

 

[MissGotRocks]

IMO, if the stone is already mounted it is almost impossible for the appraiser to match the color accurately against his/her master set.

A very good point particularly as diamonds are graded face down by the labs.

 

[JT123]

It’s important to keep in mind that there is a range within each color category, and the lower you go in colour, the wider the range of the category. @JT123, if I’m not mistaken, your gemologist said that the ACA was “closer to a J”, which does not mean they thought it was a J colour, it means that in the range of I colour, that diamond was at the low end of the range. I apologize if I’m mistaken in my recollection, but I think the quote was “closer to a J” not “solid J” - but you were the one that was there, so please forgive me if I’m misinterpreting your older post. Also, I would expect anyone to notice the tint in an I given the right light and angle. However, if you’re unhappy with the tint, you’re unhappy with the tint - it doesn’t matter what the report says. When diamonds are on the border-line like that, even if the appraiser did say “solid J”, that does not mean the lab was wrong in saying it was an “I.” Labs do nothing but grade diamonds based on master sets, and AGS and GIA are more reliable than any appraiser. I’m not saying that lab reports can never be wrong, but the frequency of error is expected to be lower than with appraisers - again, many diamonds are on the borderline of colour categories and it’s not always an easy call. Even in this thread, I believe the verdict on the colour of the diamond was that it was indeed a G - but the title can’t be changed and it seems everyone still assumes it to be true.



Having said that, there are still stories like @mrs-b where there have been multiple instances of soft colour grading by AGS. Others have stories where the GIA grading was too high. I think it’s the nature of diamond grading that some of these discrepancies are going to exist - unless someone can replace human grading, I don’t think this can be avoided completely.

Just another two cents.

Yes I agree. The appraiser I used was going to appraise it as a “J” . When I asked if it was less valuable she said “yes” and strongly encouraged me to pick another diamond. She looked up another better diamond (from Blue Nile) that was around 1 k less than my diamond. Since my appraised diamond would have been worth less for insurance purposes I decided to return it.

 

[JT123]

A very good point particularly as diamonds are graded face down by the labs.

I’m not trying to start any arguments here ha ha. I honestly did everything pricescope suggests a buyer to do. This person was recommended on Pricescope which I linked above. I’m not going to keep an I diamond that was appraised as a J. Especially since she told me it’s not as valuable. I’m sorry I’m upsetting people on here, that is not my intent. I’m only sharing my experience with the OP.
I’m so appreciative of all the valuable information and the help I received here on PriceScope!

 

[MamaBee]

I agree..I have an alternate cushion diamond that is a GIA graded H. It doesn’t appear to be an H to me..It seems to be a low I. My MRB engagement ring is graded G by AGS. It is a low G closer to F but not quite...stated by many appraisers..I notice a HUGE difference between my H cushion and G MRB. AGS is supposedly softer on color grading but not in my case..

I’m replying to my own posts now haha..I realized I said I thought my cushion looked like a low I...I meant to say the H looks like a low H closer to I. It’s still bright white except for in certain lighting conditions..I am color sensitive though..

 

[MissGotRocks]

I’m not trying to start any arguments here ha ha. I honestly did everything pricescope suggests a buyer to do. This person was recommended on Pricescope which I linked above. I’m not going to keep an I diamond that was appraised as a J. Especially since she told me it’s not as valuable. I’m sorry I’m upsetting people on here, that is not my intent. I’m only sharing my experience with the OP.
I’m so appreciative of all the valuable information and the help I received here on PriceScope!

Please don't feel that way - all input is valued for sure! Thank goodness you were dealing with Whiteflash and could return or trade your diamond in on something you did like.

However, that being said, I think one of the points being made here is that if you have purchased a stone that is AGS or GIA graded, you have their word that it is what it is and they have issued a certificate saying so. This cert gives the stone 'paper' with which to sell or trade with. Again, not that there can't be error on their part but I feel that these labs are doing this in the most thorough way possible. The stone is loose, face down and graded against a master set of stones. When an appraiser appraises a stone, he or she is looking at a stone face up in a setting which can never be as conclusive as looking at a loose stone. She gives you a written appraisal which won't do much of anything for you in terms of selling or marketing your stone as she is one person, one appraiser who is not known to the world. She is entitled to her professional opinion and you can either go with what the lab said or what she said but having that paper from AGS is more beneficial to you than her appraisal. The point of having the appraisal done of a certed stone is to give you peace of mind that the stone matches the cert in terms of its number and its inclusions. An opinion on its color that differs from the grading lab is just that - an opinion. Whether or not you take her word for it or the lab's word is up to you and what you think about the stone in terms of color. It is not that you are wrong in having gone to an appraiser - it is just a matter of whose opinion you prefer to believe.

No argument and here and no worries - just wanted to clarify.

 

[tyty333]

Yes I agree. The appraiser I used was going to appraise it as a “J” . When I asked if it was less valuable she said “yes” and strongly encouraged me to pick another diamond. She looked up another better diamond (from Blue Nile) that was around 1 k less than my diamond. Since my appraised diamond would have been worth less for insurance purposes I decided to return it.

Who was the appraiser? Can you explain what you mean by "better diamond"?

 

[whitewave]

We don’t get offended here (well, we do lol but not for your post)... we like these kinds of discussions.

I would also like to know what she meant by better diamond. You know one thing is that Whiteflash has an amazing upgrade policy that blue Nile can’t match. I have many blue Nile diamonds and their upgrade policy has limited me in upgrading my asscher (before reset, wasn’t spending another 9k to upgrade) and my studs for a second time.

 

[JT123]

Thank you @whitewave . I believe she meant better price and color? It was a virtual stone that had all the right specs,same size, but was H color. She told me WF has access to the same stone and can pull it for me if I’d like. I agree with WF’s upgrade policy,it’s the best! She also suggested I work with WF rather than Blue Nile and vouched WF is a reputable and great company! (She wasn’t putting Blue Nile down at all)my impression was she thought WF has great customer service.
I found her on the PS independent appraisal search : https://www.pricescope.com/appraisers?state=california
In the end, I decided to buy from a B&M store that DH, friends and family used and has a good rep on here too. They offered an upgrade credit,not as good as WF though-the diamond must cost 25% more. I’m happy with that. I don’t see myself upgrading but you never know!
@tyty333 ,@MissGotRocks she has these creditals
XXX is a Graduate Gemologist (Gemological Institute of America) and a Fellow of the Gemmological Association of Great Britain. In addition, she holds the Accredited Senior Gemologist title (Accredited Gemologists Association), and is an Accredited Senior Appraiser (American Society of Appraisers). See a list of other affiliations.
@MissGotRocks, @tyty333 But yeah ,I saw a tint and DH wanted the stone appraised asap.(I also wasn’t in love with it)

​

 

[whitewave]

You may be tint sensitive like I am. I bought my daughter a .37 I from BN years ago for pendant and I couldn’t get over how yellow it looked unset. Then I saw it in evening sun, and I thought it looked amazing and once set I can’t really only see the tint from the side. (But it’s not mine so I don’t see it offen).

I guess I was spoiled by my original D and so I’m stuck on D-E-F but will go G for max size. I haven’t bought an H yet for myself.

 

[CareBear]

For many years, I had a 2ct I VS2 AGS stone that a very reputable appraiser appraised as borderline J and VS1. I was bothered a bit initially that it was appraised borderline J, but it was a gorgeous stone and it made me very happy so I kept it. When I traded the stone in years later, no one asked if it was a high I, middle I, or low I or if it was a 'clean' VS2 or 'not clean' VS2. The trade-in was priced based on the fact that it was a AGS000 I VS2, period.

 

[Dancing Fire]

For many years, I had a 2ct I VS2 AGS stone that a very reputable appraiser appraised as borderline J and VS1. I was bothered a bit initially that it was appraised borderline J, but it was a gorgeous stone and it made me very happy so I kept it. When I traded the stone in years later, no one asked if it was a high I, middle I, or low I or if it was a 'clean' VS2 or 'not clean' VS2. The trade-in was priced based on the fact that it was a AGS000 I VS2, period.

Yup, all stone will trade based on its GIA/AGS report. It doesn't matter what the appraiser's opinion is unless there was damage to the stone.

 

[Siamese Kitty]

Who was the appraiser? Can you explain what you mean by "better diamond"?

Yes, I was wondering the same. If you purchased a WF ACA, it's technically a "branded" H&A stone and I don't think that would be comparable to a virtual inventory stone for means of value comparison. Even if specs were similar, it's not the same. My appraiser does note the brand when he writes out the description for insurance.

 

[MissGotRocks]

Thank you @whitewave . I believe she meant better price and color? It was a virtual stone that had all the right specs,same size, but was H color. She told me WF has access to the same stone and can pull it for me if I’d like. I agree with WF’s upgrade policy,it’s the best! She also suggested I work with WF rather than Blue Nile and vouched WF is a reputable and great company! (She wasn’t putting Blue Nile down at all)my impression was she thought WF has great customer service.
I found her on the PS independent appraisal search : https://www.pricescope.com/appraisers?state=california
In the end, I decided to buy from a B&M store that DH, friends and family used and has a good rep on here too. They offered an upgrade credit,not as good as WF though-the diamond must cost 25% more. I’m happy with that. I don’t see myself upgrading but you never know!
@tyty333 ,@MissGotRocks she has these creditals
XXX is a Graduate Gemologist (Gemological Institute of America) and a Fellow of the Gemmological Association of Great Britain. In addition, she holds the Accredited Senior Gemologist title (Accredited Gemologists Association), and is an Accredited Senior Appraiser (American Society of Appraisers). See a list of other affiliations.
@MissGotRocks, @tyty333 But yeah ,I saw a tint and DH wanted the stone appraised asap.(I also wasn’t in love with it)

​

I would never want to use an appraiser that was trying to sell me another diamond - regardless of who the vendor was. Whiteflash may have been able to access that stone for their virtual inventory but would not have offered it as an ACA unless it was completely vetted by their process. I don't think they use that type of virtual inventory for their diamonds.
As long as you are happy with the diamond that you ended up with, that's all the matters. Was the stone you purchased from Whiteflash initially an ACA diamond?

 

[JT123]

Yup, all stone will trade based on its GIA/AGS report. It doesn't matter what the appraiser's opinion is unless there was damage to the stone.

I see your point but IMO, Pricescope wouldn't advise to get an independent appraisal if they felt like it wasn't needed ,and it was merely the independent appraiser's own opinion. I found the article on here https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamond_appraisers_why_you_need_one_and_what_expect .
If you feel like it's not needed that's great! In my case I felt it was a good decision to pay the $$ for it. I thought the info on here about independent appraisals very educational.I do think a buyer needs to shop around for a great appraiser too. I did talk to a few that I felt weren't qualified enough

 

[JT123]

I would never want to use an appraiser that was trying to sell me another diamond - regardless of who the vendor was. Whiteflash may have been able to access that stone for their virtual inventory but would not have offered it as an ACA unless it was completely vetted by their process. I don't think they use that type of virtual inventory for their diamonds.
As long as you are happy with the diamond that you ended up with, that's all the matters. Was the stone you purchased from Whiteflash initially an ACA diamond?

Yes purchased from WF, it was ACA. Sorry, little confused who else was trying to sell me a diamond lol?I used an Independent Appraiser.

 

[JT123]

Whiteflash may have been able to access that stone for their virtual inventory but would not have offered it as an ACA unless it was completely vetted by their process. I don't think they use that type of virtual inventory for their diamonds.
As long as you are happy with the diamond that you ended up with, that's all the matters.

Yeah ,I wanted to stick to a diamond from WF's in-house stock. The reason being it was only a few weeks to return and no upgrade. I found a bigger and in my mind, better diamond, great pricing too with a B&M with great upgrade policy to boot so went that route.I know the whole ACA thing is a personal thing, a lot of people on here think it's worth it (especially if an upgrade is the future!) & some don't.

 

[CareBear]

Yes, I was wondering the same. If you purchased a WF ACA, it's technically a "branded" H&A stone and I don't think that would be comparable to a virtual inventory stone for means of value comparison. Even if specs were similar, it's not the same. My appraiser does note the brand when he writes out the description for insurance.

If you purchase an ACA, it should be noted in your appraisal. If a claim is filed with your insurance company, they need to replace your stone with an ACA or cut you a check for the cost of the replacement. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but if your stone is an AGS000, and not branded, the insurance company still needs to replace your stone with a comparable AGS000, or a check for the replacement value. Unless the insurance company works directly with WF or have access to a lot of AGS stones, they will likely cut you a check. However, GIA EX/EX/EX range is so wide (and plentiful) that what your insurance company offers as a replacement will likely not come close to your 'PS approved' EX/EX/EX. This could mean a LOT of back and forth before you get your stone replaced.

 

[JT123]

If you purchase an ACA, it should be noted in your appraisal. If a claim is filed with your insurance company, they need to replace your stone with an ACA or cut you a check for the cost of the replacement. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but if your stone is an AGS000, and not branded, the insurance company still needs to replace your stone with a comparable AGS000, or a check for the replacement value. Unless the insurance company works directly with WF or have access to a lot of AGS stones, they will likely cut you a check. However, GIA EX/EX/EX range is so wide (and plentiful) that what your insurance company offers as a replacement will likely not come close to your 'PS approved' EX/EX/EX. This could mean a LOT of back and forth before you get your stone replaced.

Thanks CareBear, I'm good! I deal with insurance companies all the time and have the best broker. I made sure I'll get a check for COR. My insurance more than covers my ring, setting everything etc. Their rates are little less than JM and covers everything, plus the setting. Even if I misplace it, it's covered! I'll be traveling soon and it's great to have that piece of mind for sure

 

[MissGotRocks]

Yes purchased from WF, it was ACA. Sorry, little confused who else was trying to sell me a diamond lol?I used an Independent Appraiser.

Not actually selling of course but pointing you in the direction of another stone. Blue Nile does not vet stones like the super ideal vendors do so it is not an apples to apples comparison. However, as you have pointed out, not everyone wants or needs a super ideal cut stone. I am just glad that you found a diamond that you love and enjoy. At the end of the day, that's the most important thing of all!