The Supreme Court just further eroded the separation between Church and State

[Lookinagain]

But that is the rub. You don't have the right to not see someone else practicing their religion. That was the point of the paragraph in the link I posted.

Limits of Freedom From Religion​

Freedom from religion does not mean, as some mistakenly seem to claim, being free from seeing religion in society. No one has the right not to see churches, religious expression, and other examples of religious belief in our nation—and those who advocate freedom of religion do not claim otherwise.

Seeing someone practice their religion in public doesn't bother me. If they want to stand on the street corner and pray out loud, fine. That's their business. I might think that they are nuts, but I don't care. But to me, that is distinct, from a) them accosting me on the street to hand me religious literature; b) ringing my doorbell to try to talk to me about their religion; c) having a boss bring it into the workplace, and d) having a public school coach (or teacher) lead what is tantamount to a group prayer or prayer meeting. It's the public dollars used for the last that irks me the most, although item c) is inappropriate for me as well. The first two are nuisances.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Ditto. My high school was a public school with no specific religious attachment or teaching (other than general religious studies of all faiths), but we still said the Lords Prayer before each assembly. My eldest is at a similar school now & they also say the Lords Prayer in assembly. Idk why? But it never bothered me despite not being a religious person or a believer in God.

I chose not to join in with the words (as did many children at the time) & my school respected that. I believe it is the same for my eldest now - it's a personal choice. The world is far more diverse than it was when I was a kid, and I know there are many children at my daughters school of many different faiths. They are each respected for who they are.

Religious or not, it is very wrong to push your beliefs onto others.

did you get the Gillan people come and hand out little tiny bibles ?
i remember a ton in the rubbish bin afterwards - which just seens a huge waste of paper
i bet they dont do that now

we get these beautifully long hand written letters from the 7th day adverts about 3 times a year addressed to the occupant
i always feel a bit sad someone is just wasting postage money

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

You know Daisy, with all due respect, those in the minority might be afraid to speak up. No one wants to draw attention to themselves for something like this. No one wants to be persecuted. No one wants to have to say hey wait. This isnt OK. So they suck it up. You will have to take my word for that. I have done it myself on occasion. Sometimes you just keep your mouth shut. Unpleasant as it may be.

im really sad you felt like that Missy

now what can you dear people do to reform your supreme court ?
because personally i see that as the root of the problem

 

[Lookinagain]

im really sad you felt like that Missy

now what can you dear people do to reform your supreme court ?
because personally i see that as the root of the problem

Well, unless we somehow get term limits for justices (unlikely) many of them are fairly young and could be on the court for another 30 years. People sometimes forget that the presidential election only gives us the same person for 8 years at most, but that presidential election can give us justices that can last well beyond many of our lifetimes. That's why who gets onto the federal bench is so important. Unless we get term limits for them as well.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Well, unless we somehow get term limits for justices (unlikely) many of them are fairly young and could be on the court for another 30 years. People sometimes forget that the presidential election only gives us the same person for 8 years at most, but that presidential election can give us justices that can last well beyond many of our lifetimes. That's why who gets onto the federal bench is so important. Unless we get term limits for them as well.

exactly !
my other half just loved President Obama (and we vote the other way) i mean i think most of the world just adored Mr Obama
Gary just couldn't understand why he couldn't have another term

so it makes no sence to us how the supreme court has no time or age limits
i know we have age discrimination laws but most jobs are not jobs for life anymore

i have no idea how you are going to change that but you guys need to think of a way within this generation

 

[Calliecake]

It’s looking pretty grim @Daisys and Diamonds. I’m hoping we can turn things around.

 

[Jambalaya]

well im just saying
and school kids are pretty vocal at displaying their plessure over something
plus it was 35 odd years ago
we had plenty of other things to think about that being offended by a short prayer once a week

My school also had prayers and some religious songs at assembly. If you weren't religious, you just gave an eyeroll or a snicker, in a rebellious sort of way. I can't relate to the prayers/songs making anyone feel actually uncomfortable. For me, uncomfortable was when a German teacher stared at my chest. The religious stuff in school, if you weren't religious you just laughed at it.

 

[Jambalaya]

I am angered by hearing someone at the table next to me in a restaurant praying aloud.

People do this?? I've never seen/heard that. Or do you mean when they're saying grace? I've never seen that in public either. However, why does it anger you? I get that it's something you don't want to hear, but that goes for a LOT of dinner conversation. They could be talking about politics, their s*x life - lots of things you don't want to hear. Why's it different for religion, specifically? And is it just Christian prayer you object to overhearing? What about if it was a Muslim or Jewish prayer?

It amazes me how some people are JUST SO OFFENDED at the occasional prayer. (My position on religion, for full disclosure: I don't go to church and I don't know the Bible, but I'm interested in religion from a historical perspective, and I think there's much about this world that we don't understand - hence why I keep banging on about quantum physics whenever this topic comes up.)

So, I'm not overly religious, but I really, really don't understand why some non-religious people react like a cat on a hot tin roof when even the merest whiff of religion comes their way. Why the hatred? And why does your right not to hear or see any religion at all trump their right to pray at their own table? I understand that this sentiment goes both ways. There is no right answer to that one. The only answer is tolerance.

I understand better if someone is, say, Jewish and their school does all this Christian prayer but does not do anything for Jewish people. I would find that very excluding. But if you're not religious, I really, really don't understand why overhearing a prayer is SO bothersome. After all, they are paying for their right to sit at that table, and they can pray if they want - as long as it's not loud, and that goes for any talk.

I think being angered by overhearing a prayer is an over-reaction, IMHO.

 

[Matata]

I think being angered by overhearing a prayer is an over-reaction, IMHO.

I acknowledge your right to your opinion. My opinion is that religious freedom has run amok. County clerks denying marriage certificates to gay couples; religious charities refusing to allow gay couples to adopt; bakers refusing to bake a cake for cripes sake. The instances I spoke about previously as well as those in this post are symptoms, IMO, of the amokness (yeah, I know it's not a real word). But in the larger picture all those things, regardless of how minor they appear to others, are to me, important symptoms of the disease which is spreading rapidly by those in power using their religious beliefs to deny long held basic human rights.

The examples I've given have their origins in Christian dogma. The far right wing of Christianity is taking every opportunity it can to ensure that their beliefs are codified into law. Hello SCOTUS

Most rights in this country have some proscriptions limiting their scope. Religion and the right to bear arms are sacrosanct from the same level of limitation as other rights, IMO.

As I said earlier, I think religious practice should be confined to official places of worship and private property. That's not denying anyone the right to believe and worship. It's called compromise from which religions feel they are exempted, IMO.

P.S. I've used "IMO" not to be snarky but to indicate that I'm speaking only for myself and not using a broad brush to suggest that what I believe is what others do or should believe.

 

[Jambalaya]

@Matata, yes, I see what you mean and I agree with all the above. Denying marriage certificates to gay couples, and the cake issue, and the other things you mentioned are all AWFUL and run totally counter to the Christian principles of love, tolerance, and kindness to all, IMHO.

I also agree that religion should be kept to places of worship and private property. As regards the dinner thing, I've had MANY a dinner out absolutely ruined by the sheer amount of noise people or one person at a nearby table is making. There are no manners anymore at all, it seems. That's what triggers me about eating in a restaurant. If all I overheard was a reasonably quiet prayer, I'd be friggin' ecstatic!

Are you basically saying that you find a scenario like the restaurant/prayer thing to be triggering in the light of the fact that religious dogma is being used to oppress people? If so, I can understand that.

 

[Matata]

If all I overheard was a reasonably quiet prayer, I'd be friggin' ecstatic!

Are you basically saying that you find a scenario like the restaurant/prayer thing to be triggering in the light of the fact that religious dogma is being used to oppress people? If so, I can understand that.

Yes to your question.

About prayer in a restaurant. I eat out about 4 times a week and encounter verbal prayer at least twice a week (maybe the universe is making me do penance for being anti-theist ) and when the table is praying, all conversation their side on of the restaurant comes to a halt and the service staff stop serving all tables until the prayer ends. These aren't large restaurants so the prayer makes for an awkward choice between service disruption and being respectful to praying patrons. It is an example of a right not carrying equal weight and I think the inequity is a weakness that needs to be addressed because according to the article redwood linked, religion has the right to do what it wants, where it wants, when it wants and I have to suck it up and deal with it.

Note that red's linked site is not providing information based in law. Their writers "are full-time ministers, published authors, licensed clergy, and teachers... dedicated to helping readers deepen their faith or become more familiar with the world’s religions."

The opinion piece is yet another example of the over reach of religion and an attempt to trample the rights of non believers, imo.

 

[redwood66]

Yes to your question.

About prayer in a restaurant. I eat out about 4 times a week and encounter verbal prayer at least twice a week (maybe the universe is making me do penance for being anti-theist ) and when the table is praying, all conversation their side on of the restaurant comes to a halt and the service staff stop serving all tables until the prayer ends. These aren't large restaurants so the prayer makes for an awkward choice between service disruption and being respectful to praying patrons. It is an example of a right not carrying equal weight and I think the inequity is a weakness that needs to be addressed because according to the article redwood linked, religion has the right to do what it wants, where it wants, when it wants and I have to suck it up and deal with it.

Note that red's linked site is not providing information based in law. Their writers "are full-time ministers, published authors, licensed clergy, and teachers... dedicated to helping readers deepen their faith or become more familiar with the world’s religions."

The opinion piece is yet another example of the over reach of religion and an attempt to trample the rights of non believers, imo.

I see prayers in restaurants all the time and no one bats and eye or stops what they're doing. Waitresses keeping doing their jobs. Perhaps the people stopping and staring could just ignore it? The ones praying don't want everyone to stop what they're doing.

The site I linked is multi-denominational, the two who started it are a Christian and a Wiccan. Who better to discuss religions than those practicing them? It's meant for people to learn about different religions. The link spoke directly to the points intended. And as @telephone89 noted, it's not all rosy info.

 

[Matata]

I see prayers in restaurants all the time and no one bats and eye or stops what they're doing. Waitresses keeping doing their jobs. Perhaps the people stopping and staring could just ignore it? The ones praying don't want everyone to stop what they're doing.

We have different experiences red, I can speak only to mine. I don't know the motivation behind those who pray aloud in public settings. My question to them would be why they feel the need to do so when doing their practice silently is less intrusive. One can't ignore what one can see and hear, one can choose to either address it or remain silent.

Who better to discuss religions than those practicing them? It's meant for people to learn about different religions. The link spoke directly to the points intended. And as @telephone89 noted, it's not all rosy info.

There is no link to relevant law here:

Limits of Freedom From Religion​

Freedom from religion does not mean, as some mistakenly seem to claim, being free from seeing religion in society. No one has the right not to see churches, religious expression, and other examples of religious belief in our nation—and those who advocate freedom of religion do not claim otherwise.

Opinion pieces do not have to be based on fact or knowledge. When I read such strong statements as the one above, even when written by an alleged expert in atheism and agnosticism, I want to know its basis in law because if there isn't one, the author is engaging in spreading misinformation.

 

[redwood66]

We have different experiences red, I can speak only to mine. I don't know the motivation behind those who pray aloud in public settings. My question to them would be why they feel the need to do so when doing their practice silently is less intrusive. One can't ignore what one can see and hear, one can choose to either address it or remain silent.



There is no link to relevant law here:

Limits of Freedom From Religion​

Freedom from religion does not mean, as some mistakenly seem to claim, being free from seeing religion in society. No one has the right not to see churches, religious expression, and other examples of religious belief in our nation—and those who advocate freedom of religion do not claim otherwise.

Opinion pieces do not have to be based on fact or knowledge. When I read such strong statements as the one above, even when written by an alleged expert in atheism and agnosticism, I want to know its basis in law because if there isn't one, the author is engaging in spreading misinformation.

There is no law to protect you from hearing or seeing prayer in public.

Why do people need to pay attention to what others are doing? There's plenty of annoying things that happen in public that I'd rather not see or hear as @Jambalaya said but I don't have the right to stop them from doing it. People talking loud on their damn cell phones is one. But I mind my own business and follow the non-aggression principle.

 

[Jambalaya]

@Matata and @redwood66 This is amazing to me! I used to eat out a LOT, for years, and I have never seen anyone praying in a restaurant, not once. I've never even heard of such a thing. Do you live in deep religious country? And is it people saying grace, or actually holding prayers as if they're at a place of worship? That DOES sound a bit weird. You go to a restaurant to eat and socialize, not act as if you're at church! And isn't grace just a simple "For what we are about to receive, we are truly thankful" or some such? Or perhaps for some people, saying grace before eating is a long prayer?

Gosh. I'm intrigued.

 

[Lookinagain]

Are you basically saying that you find a scenario like the restaurant/prayer thing to be triggering in the light of the fact that religious dogma is being used to oppress people? If so, I can understand that.

I was going to say this. That it is a trigger for what it can represent and is sometimes used to oppress.

And I have to say, I have NEVER seen or heard anyone praying in a restaurant. It never crossed my mind that it might happen. Do you think it's location?

 

[Matata]

And I have to say, I have NEVER seen or heard anyone praying in a restaurant.

You haven't lived until you've seen a bunch of church ladies praying while they're on the treadmills at the gym. I didn't think I lived in an overtly religious community until I started seeing so much praying everywhere. Sightings didn't used to be so frequent until about 10 yrs ago or it's possible it has always been this way and I was oblivious to it.

I've never asked anyone to stop. At the gym when those ladies overstay the time limit on the treadmills as they dissect the latest sermon (they belong to the same church) and pray, no one says anything. People just stand around tapping their toes and waiting for them to leave. They don't notice or don't care. The gym is convenient walking distance from my house, literally 2 minutes, which is why I joined that particular one. I now drive to another branch 20 minutes away.

We have a lot of walkers in my neighborhood of which I'm one. There are 8 of them who walk in a group and try to hand me religious literature every time they see me and they're the same ones who yell "Jesus loves you" at me every time. Two of the group are also the same ladies who monopolize the treadmills at the gym. And when I say "yell", I mean they'll shout it from a half block away. They even waived my car down once. They're quite elderly and I thought they might need help so I stopped. They tried to hand me religious literature. I've said nothing to them to date. I politely refuse their handouts each time. I try to vary my route and my walking times but at this point, with everything else that happens, I'm done. Next time they try to give me literature or yell a religious slogan at me, they're going to hear my side of the story, politely, the first time and all bets are off after that if they persist. I'm not the only one they prey on (lol, see what I did there), other neighbors I meet complain about them.

 

[Lookinagain]

Next time they try to give me literature or yell a religious slogan at me, they're going to hear my side of the story, politely, the first time and all bets are off after that if they persist. I'm not the only one they prey on (lol, see what I did there), other neighbors I meet complain about them.

I would politely ask them to leave you alone. That you are not interested. And that if they persist you will consider it harassment. If that was happening to me, I think I'd go to my town clerk and see if there were anything I could do to enjoy my neighborhood without being harassed.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

I'm going to look for praying people now!!! I've never noticed it but you've made me wonder if I've just been oblivious.

That said religion is declining in Australia according to the results of every new census conducted.

 

[Matata]

That said religion is declining in Australia according to the results of every new census conducted.

It's declining here too.

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

Nobody thinks it's too weird that the Christians pray in public in America because they are the dominant religion in the US. We're used to it.
Funny thing is, they are failing Christianity when they do it.
It is hypocritical according to their testament.
One of the defining characteristics of Christianity was no display or empty posturing.
Jesus says god really doesn't like that.
It was one of the clear directives that he was given.
Prayer is private.
If it isn't private then it isn't a true prayer.
It is pride before god.
They are the current Pharisees.
Technically, they are to be shunned by their own.
They need to look to Matthew and then brush up on Luke for good measure that night, as they are not following the bible's basic teaching.
The coach on the public field is prideful posturing. The people disturbing other people with prayer in a public setting are prideful posturing.

People who don't mind their own team prayers in public certainly should have no complaint when the people next to them begin publicly praying to FSM or Satan before tucking in to their appetizers.

 

[redwood66]

You haven't lived until you've seen a bunch of church ladies praying while they're on the treadmills at the gym. I didn't think I lived in an overtly religious community until I started seeing so much praying everywhere. Sightings didn't used to be so frequent until about 10 yrs ago or it's possible it has always been this way and I was oblivious to it.

I've never asked anyone to stop. At the gym when those ladies overstay the time limit on the treadmills as they dissect the latest sermon (they belong to the same church) and pray, no one says anything. People just stand around tapping their toes and waiting for them to leave. They don't notice or don't care. The gym is convenient walking distance from my house, literally 2 minutes, which is why I joined that particular one. I now drive to another branch 20 minutes away.

We have a lot of walkers in my neighborhood of which I'm one. There are 8 of them who walk in a group and try to hand me religious literature every time they see me and they're the same ones who yell "Jesus loves you" at me every time. Two of the group are also the same ladies who monopolize the treadmills at the gym. And when I say "yell", I mean they'll shout it from a half block away. They even waived my car down once. They're quite elderly and I thought they might need help so I stopped. They tried to hand me religious literature. I've said nothing to them to date. I politely refuse their handouts each time. I try to vary my route and my walking times but at this point, with everything else that happens, I'm done. Next time they try to give me literature or yell a religious slogan at me, they're going to hear my side of the story, politely, the first time and all bets are off after that if they persist. I'm not the only one they prey on (lol, see what I did there), other neighbors I meet complain about them.

I see what you mean and it would drive me crazy too. I would politely ask too and then after it might be less polite if it continued. Are they from the Applegate church or one in town? Applegate can be quite vociferous in their evangelism. You live in an area with many churches as we did until June 2nd. We're on the road now with the house sold!

@Jambalaya where I lived in north Idaho we saw it quite often but it was always quieter prayer/grace and never what it seems @Matata has been experiencing. No one gives it a thought though because it isn't over the top. I didn't eavesdrop to hear them.

 

[Matata]

Are they from the Applegate church or one in town?

I don't know which church they attend. If I find out, I'll have a nice chat with the pastor about advising his flock to be respectful of others' space without giving him too many details so he can't identify who they are. As annoying as they are, I wouldn't want them to be embarrassed by being singled out by someone they obviously hold in high esteem.

 

[redwood66]

I don't know which church they attend. If I find out, I'll have a nice chat with the pastor about advising his flock to be respectful of others' space without giving him too many details so he can't identify who they are. As annoying as they are, I wouldn't want them to be embarrassed by being singled out by someone they obviously hold in high esteem.

You are a good person.

 

[Kalynna]

I have the same "cat on a hot tin roof" reaction as @Matata when it comes to public displays of religion. For me at least, it stems from negative personal experiences with religious people when I was growing up.

I'm an out-of-wedlock child, and my dad was never in the picture. This wasn't an issue for me because I had all of the love and support I could possibly need from my mom and grandma. Plus, you can't really miss what you've never had.

But I grew up in an area that was heavily Catholic. There was a group of girls that all went to the same church and had quite the clique going. When they started their catechism classes around 4th or 5th grade, they got MEAN. They would constantly tell me that me and my mom were going to hell, and ostracized me (I couldn't sit at certain lunch tables, wasn't invited to parties, accused of being a "dirty lesbian" [not sure where that came from] etc.). When I did hang out with some of the other Catholic girls who weren't a part of the "mean girl" group, they constantly questioned me about my dad and religious beliefs. Even their parents did! One girl wasn't even allowed to come to my house because of potential "negative influences."

I wasn't the only one who was treated like this. The one Muslim girl in our year was completely outcast, and the few Jewish kids just kept to themselves in their own group.

If we'd had prayer in school, I'm sure it would've only made the situation worse by validating their beliefs even further and "othering" anyone who didn't choose to participate... because you KNOW those school prayers wouldn't be Muslim, Jewish, wiccan, etc.

Further, I also worry about how "optional" religious activities in school would be. For example, in high school, we always stood for the pledge of allegiance in the morning. I decided I was going to be a rebel and refused to stand as a protest of the Iraq war. The teacher (who pronounced Iraq EEEEE-RACK lol) took umbrage and tried to give me detention and in-school suspension. The administration rebuffed this, but I still ended up getting my one and only high school C in that class (though it was gym class and I probably deserved it, hah).

But coming back to the point of aversion to religious activities, I always reflect on those childhood experiences and automatically go into a defensive mode. And now that religion is so openly tied to far right views, I'm even more hostile. I know that not all religious people are like this, but I haven't seen much protest or opposition being put up by religious groups to lessen this association, and many churches in my area are even going so far as to host far right candidates and raise money for them.

 

[autumngems]

at internediate every 2nd week we had a religious assembly where each class took turns putting on a play
i remember we did the 10 commandments (1983 i think)
it was huge fun
i don't remember any other religious instruction - it was just drama
seems a bit out there now
at primary school in standard one a lady used to come in to do bible study for a term
i guess the teacher enjoyed the rest

but that's it as far as religion went in my education
my friend who went to Catholic high school at the same time was learning about other religions in religious education - that used to fascinate me

I remember when we moved in 7th grade (many years ago) that my new school did prayer each morning. Even then, you didn't have to participate.

I think they do prayers before races in NASCAR too.

 

[Calliecake]

@Kalanna, Your post was heartbreaking. I’m sorry you had to experience this.

 

[telephone89]

This thread has basically shown me my second bolded bit from redwoods article rings truer than the first.

"they simply don’t care what religious minorities experience"

 

[elizat]

The last round of religious based rulings bother me a lot, especially when they are tied to governement spending and public school activities. I struggle to see how it's private speeh, as depicted, when it was on the field in front of everyone at the games and he started to give speeches about it and his beliefs to students. It really swept over the idea of potentially coercing those that did not want to participate into doing so and/or restricted their ability to practice- or not practice- whatever beliefs they chose. And that is putting aside the obvious issue of whether it appears that the school was endorsing or supporting the viewpoint due to the facts of it.

Where I live, praying aloud in restaurants is not uncommon. It has always made me very uncomfortable though. We recently were at a restaraunt and a man decided to start preaching to half the place about the role of women in God's view and how woman are to be subservient, and less than men, because of how God created women and original sin, etc. We just asked to be moved, even though I would have preferred to leave.

I have zero issue with whatever anyone wants to practice, if they do it in private, or in a way that is non-intrusive, or with members of their own group at a designated time, and as long as governmental money and resources are not used to support religion. I have long thought that religous institutions should not be eligible for tax exempt status, but that is an entire other can of worms.

 

[Matata]

Putting this here for anyone who is skeptical of a movement to overturn the 1st amendment.

From an elected representative:

“The church is supposed to direct the government. The government is not supposed to direct the church. I’m tired of this separation of church and state junk.”

The crowd attending the speech applauded.