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The Trump Policy of Separating Families at the US Border

Hi,

Deb--Trumps popularity has increased recently. Texas is basically Trump country. I felt much like you must when, before the election I was at the Mayo in Minn, and those I encountered told me they planned to vote for him. Its hard to understand how anyone could think that children ought to be separated from their parents at the border. Even if Congress had passed a law such as your nephew thought had been passed, these people are seeking asylum, they are not criminals.

I've said this before. This is an incompetent administration as well as an administration having this vile man at the head. Its all just lunacy to me. Its impossible for me to understand how Trump supporters think. Hes like the Messiah to them. Or better yet, like you said, Elmer Gantry, but some part of Elmer Gantry I liked. I am beside myself. What happened???? More complex than jobs.

I walked away from the post and then it hit me. This has to do with Texas being on the border. My son just got back from there and his comment was, its all Mexican. So, I'd say resentment is part of the Texas thinking. But your nephew probably wouldn't say it.

Annette
 
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smitcompton said:
So, I'd say resentment is part of the Texas thinking. But your nephew probably wouldn't say it.
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I appreciate the thought you put into your essay, Annette, and you may be right. However, I have also heard the opposite. I have heard some people from Texas (commentators) say that people like the Bush Family who live in a border state take the migrants in stride. They are used to them and know the benefits for tourism and for the local economies of the migrants. (The Mayor of McAllen, Texas said on television that the Mexicans are desperately needed in the work place there.) The local people know they are not MS-13 and are used to them. (The mayor was quite a pleasant man.)

My great-nephew has only been living in Texas for a couple of months. He and his partner lived in San Diego while his partner finished his residency in invasive cardiology for a couple of years before this and prior to that he was in Boston, Massachussets for about 15 years (the heart of liberalism!). He is gay. He is very tolerant of Hispanics. He is Israeli, but of Italian Jewish background like my husband, so he speaks Italian as well as Hebrew. He worked his way through college as a mover. The boss thought that since he spoke Italian he might as well interpret to all the Spanish speaking workers, so he basically learned to speak very good Spanish while working as a mover in Boston! He was a medic when he was in the (Israeli) army, so he is inclined to try to help people. He is a good kid, not a redneck. And his partner (the doctor) is a Chinese Christian! He's just not your typical Texan. So, I don't know....

Deb :))
 
smitcompton said:
Hi,

Deb--Trumps popularity has increased recently. Texas is basically Trump country. I felt much like you must when, before the election I was at the Mayo in Minn, and those I encountered told me they planned to vote for him. Its hard to understand how anyone could think that children ought to be separated from their parents at the border. Even if Congress had passed a law such as your nephew thought had been passed, these people are seeking asylum, they are not criminals.

I've said this before. This is an incompetent administration as well as an administration having this vile man at the head. Its all just lunacy to me. Its impossible for me to understand how Trump supporters think. Hes like the Messiah to them. Or better yet, like you said, Elmer Gantry, but some part of Elmer Gantry I liked. I am beside myself. What happened???? More complex than jobs.

I walked away from the post and then it hit me. This has to do with Texas being on the border. My son just got back from there and his comment was, its all Mexican. So, I'd say resentment is part of the Texas thinking. But your nephew probably wouldn't say it.

Annette
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I was thinking about it, why is his popularity so high.

And sadly, it is the politics of at least several previous presidents and corporations that has left many young people unemployed and hopeless, and black-collar families barely making it. I know families where both parents are working, and unless they are both working, a child becomes an unattainable luxury.

So what happened during the time of very bad economy in imperial Russia, in the beginning of the XX century, there was a critical mass of young men and women educating these disgruntled proletarians marxist economy. So the whole proletarian movement turned left.

Here, without anyone teaching these lumpenized proletarians economy - or anything! - the whole movement will turn right. This is what is happening, and maybe Trump is just a symptom. And what you see is not due to Texas being Mexican, because in states with high Mexican population, economy somehow factors in cheap Mexican labor. It is just - right, alt-right, whatever.
 
Dancing Fire said:
Of course we need a welfare system for those who truly needed help but IMO these people shouldn't make a career out of collecting from the taxpayers. I have heard a too many times from these recipients saying "why should I work?" when I can get free housing and food stamps from the government w/o working. :rolleyes: When I hear statements like these then you know there is something wrong with the welfare system.
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Dancing Fire, I see fewer people on welfare (although I did once - in a town, where jobs at local microbreweries were taken away by a major beer provider by destroying the microbreweries. So working folks got on welfare, and turned to drugs).

But I see many people who are on Medicaire. Old folks, dreading the donut hole. It came to a point when one couple was dreading changing providers, and meds, and I looked at them and said, "what the heck, you folks were paying taxes all your lives, to support the older generation and yourself, and now you are dreading it...I shall see you for free, because you have paid enough taxes not to be so scared now". Not that i am super kind, but they were the epitome of American middle class who has done their duty...

Is it fair what is happening to Medicaire? To older people who worked and did not avoid taxes? Not their fault that Medicaire has been exhausted.
 
Arkteia said:
Is it fair what is happening to Medicaire? To older people who worked and did not avoid taxes? Not their fault that Medicaire has been exhausted.
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Oh, I'd agree with you there. I'm against those (able bodies) who haven't paid a penny into the pot, but kept on taking advantage of the system. :wall:
 
Bonfire said:
@AGBF I don’t think anyone here is proposing stopping welfare programs:oops2:
I agree we need to make positive lasting change, whatever that entails. I’m going to say something that will Be unpopular. Barack Obama came from Chicago. Not originally but as a Senator. Before he was a Senator he was a “community activist “ in Chicago. As president he did very little to help here. Many are still sorely disappointed. Whatever the answer is it can only be arrived at through coming together. We Need leaders not partisan politics. I would love to see an independent come along and really turn things around.
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Obama did nothing to improve the lives of AA during his 8 yrs as POTUS. :wall:. In fact his buddy Rahm Emanuel ran the city into the ground.
 
Dancing Fire said:
Obama did nothing to improve the lives of AA during his 8 yrs as POTUS. :wall:. In fact his buddy Rahm Emanuel ran the city into the ground.
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He saved the economy. That helped everyone in the country.

Smitcompton, I also agree that the defense budget needs to be cut in order to balance the budget and prevent huge cuts to medicare, medicaid, social security, or wow, don't give the ultra rich and corporations such huge tax cuts and then cut programs we have all paid into for years, to pay for those tax cuts!

The current congress gave Defense MORE money than they asked for, which is really, unheard. The cold war is over. Geographically we are separated from the majority of conflicts going on in the world. It's hard to put into perspective how much the US spends on defense. We spend 618 BILLION dollars.
The US accounts for 37% of all military spending, of the ENTIRE WORLD. Not only do we spend more money than any country on the military, you can put together the budgets of 7 of the highest military spending countries (China, Saudi Arabia, Russia, India, France, UK, Japan) and our budget is more than them COMBINED. So when you see that, and then you see that we have our representatives saying we can't afford medicare, we can't afford CHIP, we can't afford a nationalized healthcare plan, we cannot afford to invest in clean energy and reduce our dependence on oil it's a failure of will, not of budget or ability to do those things. So instead of Trump having a real healthcare plan, or saving social security, he is planning military marches. That's why it is up to us citizens, to let our representatives know what we value. If this administration truly wants to put America first, put Americans first. They are not entitlements. They are programs I have paid into my entire life through my paycheck. It makes us a stronger, secure country if the sick, elderly and young are taken care of.
 
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Hi,
Deb-- I'm not arguing this point, but when your nephew said that he doesn't want to talk politics with you that says to me his views are quite different than yours, no matter that he lived in Boston and his partner is a Christian. In fact I never think of Israelis as liberal. You like this fellow and perhaps assume he is like you. And I could be wrong on all of it.

Annette
 
partgypsy said:
He saved the economy. That helped everyone in the country.

Smitcompton, I also agree that the defense budget needs to be cut in order to balance the budget and prevent huge cuts to medicare, medicaid, social security, or wow, don't give the ultra rich and corporations such huge tax cuts and then cut programs we have all paid into for years, to pay for those tax cuts!

The current congress gave Defense MORE money than they asked for, which is really, unheard. The cold war is over. Geographically we are separated from the majority of conflicts going on in the world. It's hard to put into perspective how much the US spends on defense. We spend 618 BILLION dollars.
The US accounts for 37% of all military spending, of the ENTIRE WORLD. Not only do we spend more money than any country on the military, you can put together the budgets of 7 of the highest military spending countries (China, Saudi Arabia, Russia, India, France, UK, Japan) and our budget is more than them COMBINED. So when you see that, and then you see that we have our representatives saying we can't afford medicare, we can't afford CHIP, we can't afford a nationalized healthcare plan, we cannot afford to invest in clean energy and reduce our dependence on oil it's a failure of will, not of budget or ability to do those things. So instead of Trump having a real healthcare plan, or saving social security, he is planning military marches. That's why it is up to us citizens, to let our representatives know what we value. If this administration truly wants to put America first, put Americans first. They are not entitlements. They are programs I have paid into my entire life through my paycheck. It makes us a stronger, secure country if the sick, elderly and young are taken care of.
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Because a president can be a womanizer, or a callous, uncouth narcissist, he probably can shoot someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue and still get away with it. One thing he can not get away with, and this is, crossing our military-industrial complex, our big corporations or the Wall Street. Watch how fast he loses presidency if he dares to.

So in essence, no presidency is different from the previous one, and no one is better or worse. I used to wonder, how come they discuss abortions, or gays, during the debates, while in effect, they should discuss the economy? The answer is simple, economy-wise, they are probably not so different as we think they are.
 
Dancing Fire said:
Obama did nothing to improve the lives of AA during his 8 yrs as POTUS. :wall:. In fact his buddy Rahm Emanuel ran the city into the ground.
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He probably did not. Early in his career, Obama represented predominantly AA congressional district; as the president, he was no different from anyone before him. He has great patience, was not impulsive, and had tons of charisma. The journalists liked him because he gave them something to write about, met with them and cultivated his relationship with the press. It paid - we saw the Obama the press wanted us to see.

My theory is, he is disliked by the conservatives not for being black, but for opening the door for blacks into politics, big way. Today, no one would pay attention to the skin color of the future presidential candidate.
 
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Arkteia said:
My theory is, he is disliked by the conservatives not for being black, but for opening the door for blacks into politics, big way. Today, no one would pay attention to the skin color of the future presidential candidate.
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I will not witness a black conservative Prez. in office during my lifetime. :(sad
 
Dancing Fire said:
I will not witness a black conservative Prez. in office during my lifetime. :(sad
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Yes, because Colin Powell is 81. What if he ran? I always thought he was a very decent candidate.
 
Arkteia said:
Yes, because Colin Powell is 81. What if he ran? I always thought he was a very decent candidate.
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Powell is a Dem. inside.
 
Dancing Fire said:
Powell is a Dem. inside.
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Uh? This is very questionable. He is an honest man with consistent views.
Trump, on the other hand, is a surprisingly questionable Republican. He probably never read the Bible, and also, much as he shares a rich man's ideas, these are not Republican ideas per se. Also, his current staunch antiabortion stance is somewhat ironic. I don't know his personal history, of course, but he is super practical, such people seldom subscribe to vague ideas. Yet Republicans voted for him because they are disciplined.

Are you telling me that the Republicans would never vote for Powell because he is black?

They were prepared to vote for Carson, but he spoiled it all for himself with his "granaries".
 
Are you telling me that the Republicans would never vote for Powell because he is black?
[/QUOTE] Powell won't run for Prez. , but if does he'll run as a Dem.
 
Hi,

I just want to say that once the children have been reunited with their parents, the family will go to a detention center of some sort. It seems to me this is necessary because if they release these people into the general population, many would not return for their court date and the adjudication of their case. They would become more undocumented persons entering the US. The Gov't of El Salvador has been summoned to the US to verify the documents from the refugees and make sure they are not forged. I believe many of those documents will be forged, thus many will be turned away. I would hope that if individuals have forged documents they not be allowed to immigrate to the US at all in the future.

I have no problem having refugees in detention camps while they wait. I do think many more judges are necessary.
Annette
 
Hi,

I read your comments on the Presidency with interest. No Presidency is better or worse than the last one. And your thoughts on the military industrial and financial complex. I wish to apply your "better or worse" concept to the polarization in the country.

On another thread we had 2 appealing articles that listed all the evils of the Trump Presidency. While I agree with most of the grievances listed I was struck by the sureness of the "rightness of the writer". It reminded me of a 12-13yr old school chum I had who would argue during the cold war that God was on our side because we were right. I used to say, but if God loves everyone why would HE want the A bomb to destroy anyone. My friend was sure we would win this war simply because God was on our side. We were the "better Country".

It seems to me that each party has decided God must be on their side because they are the more virtuous. Right to life, the work ethic, fiscal responsibility, right to self determination , women should raise families, and sacrifice. Belong to the Right.

Help the poor and downtrodden , abortion rights, gay rights, transgender rights, oppose all racism, more liberal immigration policy, minimum wage, health care for all, limit speech(politically correctness),ALL Human Rights---Belong to the Left.

Frankly they are all right. No-one has the monopoly on virtue. I don't see where one is more "right" than the other. Moral superiority is a tasteless trait. No-one should have it.

Annette
 
smitcompton said:
It seems to me that each party has decided God must be on their side because they are the more virtuous.
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To believe this is to abandon reason and nothing good can follow.
 
Matata said:
To believe this is to abandon reason and nothing good can follow.
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What does this mean? No one who is in opposition to a certain line of thinking is reasonable?
 
redwood66 said:
What does this mean? No one who is in opposition to a certain line of thinking is reasonable?
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It means that people who believe a non existent being is on their side and then proceed to act upon that belief are delusional and incapable of governing humanely. One has to abandon reason (sound judgment, sanity, logic) to believe in a god and nothing good comes from that.
 
Matata said:
It means that people who believe a non existent being is on their side and then proceed to act upon that belief are delusional and incapable of governing humanely. One has to abandon reason (sound judgment, sanity, logic) to believe in a god and nothing good comes from that.
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Thomas Jefferson was a theist, although not a Deist. I believe he was a Unitarian. I think he contributed a good bit to the United States although I am not saying he was perfect.

Deb
 
Matata said:
It means that people who believe a non existent being is on their side and then proceed to act upon that belief are delusional and incapable of governing humanely. One has to abandon reason (sound judgment, sanity, logic) to believe in a god and nothing good comes from that.
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Hmmm. Ok. Plenty of folks do despite your opinion. ;)) They even govern humanely.
 
redwood66 said:
They even govern humanely.
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Not our current republican party; not trump. And the shield for their inhumanity is their religion. Not because I said so, but because they say so. And those folks who you claim govern humanely while believing in a god? If the only reason they govern so is because of their belief then their humaneness is false -- based upon fear of divine retribution. Would they also be humane if they weren't believers in a god? If so, then it continues to prove that one doesn't have to believe in a god to be good so why bother?
 
Matata said:
Not our current republican party; not trump. And the shield for their inhumanity is their religion. Not because I said so, but because they say so. And those folks who you claim govern humanely while believing in a god? If the only reason they govern so is because of their belief then their humaneness is false -- based upon fear of divine retribution. Would they also be humane if they weren't believers in a god? If so, then it continues to prove that one doesn't have to believe in a god to be good so why bother?
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Because it comforts many people that's why. It also provides a moral compass. You can choose not to believe if you like. I would rather live my life as if He exists.
 
Matata said:
https://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm
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Nothing on that page (not that I read every word carefully) that I read is in opposition to what I wrote above about Thomas Jefferson. That he did not like organized religion and was not a Christian does not mean he was not a Unitarian and did not believe in God. I grew up in the Unitarian-Universalist Church; believing in God was optional. I do. Our minister when I was growing up was an atheist, however. He believed in existentialism and taught courses on it in the evening. Unitarians are said to believe in the fatherhood of God, the brotherhood of man, and the neighborhood of Boston.

AGBF
 
Hi,

I think you got lost folks. I am an atheist. I used the term God because the majority of people believe this and at one point I did. But the point I was making was probably more in the usage of the word "rightness and wrongness", which is what Arkteia was saying about Presidencies. The lists I made make differing sides proclaim the moral high-ground.

In this respect Matata did get the silliness of the example of my friend and I when we were 13. My friend, (she died two Yrs ago) did believe what she said and might say the same now. I did bring God into it, but my interest is in clarification of who has virtue. Both. Political Parties are the danger in this.
Early days in our democracy many leaders wanted weak political parties. Strong parties were cautioned against. There is someone who posts here who has a bottom tagline that says something to this effect. Mother-to-be maybe. Look for it.

Don't make this about religion. We really are used to our differences in belief.

Annette
 
smitcompton said:
Hi,

I think you got lost folks. I am an atheist. I used the term God because the majority of people believe this and at one point I did. But the point I was making was probably more in the usage of the word "rightness and wrongness", which is what Arkteia was saying about Presidencies. The lists I made make differing sides proclaim the moral high-ground.

In this respect Matata did get the silliness of the example of my friend and I when we were 13. My friend, (she died two Yrs ago) did believe what she said and might say the same now. I did bring God into it, but my interest is in clarification of who has virtue. Both. Political Parties are the danger in this.
Early days in our democracy many leaders wanted weak political parties. Strong parties were cautioned against. There is someone who posts here who has a bottom tagline that says something to this effect. Mother-to-be maybe. Look for it.

Don't make this about religion. We really are used to our differences in belief.

Annette
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It is very sad but I think political parties have become religions and I don't have much interest in them any longer.
 
arkieb1 said:
Why bother when you can turn your country into a fairer more liveable egalitarian democracy like Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Australia, New Zealand...
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All these are little country with small populations it will not work in the US.
 
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