Trust but Verify…Wish It Wasn’t Necessary

[Rfisher]

It cost nearly 1.2k so I would say it wasn’t a cheap buy.

I had purchased what was described to be an “exceptional untreated gem silica” from a highly recommended PS seller’s website. My trusted local laboratory has identified it to be a dyed quartzite instead.

Vendor pic:


Was refunded quite promptly but still out of pocket for taxes and the cert cost so it left a bad taste in my mouth from future purchases from that vendor.

So… Buyer beware! Not just the IG sellers that are dodgy. In fact so far I’ve been lucky so far for my various IG buys. All certed out ok. Unheated, type A, etc etc.

If this is who I think it is -
There’s been a few incidents lately with this vendor (looks to be the same crooked pointer finger) that does happen to be on the “List for vendor reference” thread here on PS.
I know it’s not fun to publicly name vendor’s when things go awry. It’s great you got to return it but it does suck you are holding the bag for funds related to their mistake.

But if it seems to be the same vendor again sending inaccurate (for lack of better word to encompass the instances I’m remembering) stones out…………
It’d be nice to know.
It may not exactly be nefarious on their part - but still. Seems like something is going on.

 

[bright&shiny]

We could do a YouTube channel! or TikTok….I’m dating myself ; )

That’s a great idea! I’m game

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

Thanks for clarifying @icy_jade

I wish I knew who the vendor was!!! $1.2 k is definitely not cheap!!!!! Bit disconcerting that it was from a well known vendor.

 

[pearlsngems]

I have a question for those who send their more valuable stones to AGL or GIA: Do you insure it? How do you know how much to insure it for-- do you go by the price you paid, which is on your receipt?

 

[T L]

I love translucent gem silica, but I would never buy it without a lab report, I don’t care who the vendor is. It is so commonly simulated and/or dyed, it’s crazy.

I think I know who that vendor is, and he’s a reputable guy, but that’s just a gem I wouldn’t touch with a ten foot pole without a lab report, especially for significant money. He should have refunded the lab report $$, but I’m glad you got a prompt refund.

 

[icy_jade]

I love translucent gem silica, but I would never buy it without a lab report, I don’t care who the vendor is. It is so commonly simulated and/or dyed, it’s crazy.

I think I know who that vendor is, and he’s a reputable guy, but that’s just a gem I wouldn’t touch with a ten foot pole without a lab report, especially for significant money. He should have refunded the lab report $$, but I’m glad you got a prompt refund.

I know. I thought it’s a reputable seller and that it would be ok… I might actually be better off buying off IG since some sellers actually look to have more legit stuff… anyway am still out of pocket of a few hundred. Lesson learnt.

 

[VividRed]

Who is the vendor in question?

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

It cost nearly 1.2k so I would say it wasn’t a cheap buy.

I had purchased what was described to be an “exceptional untreated gem silica” from a highly recommended PS seller’s website. My trusted local laboratory has identified it to be a dyed quartzite instead.

Vendor pic:


Was refunded quite promptly but still out of pocket for taxes and the cert cost so it left a bad taste in my mouth from future purchases from that vendor.

So… Buyer beware! Not just the IG sellers that are dodgy. In fact so far I’ve been lucky so far for my various IG buys. All certed out ok. Unheated, type A, etc etc.

i droll over some of those sites
i find this rather alarming

recently i got duped with dyed quartz masquerading as lamair
i remember at the time thinking thank goodness i wasn't in for $100's of dollars (but i was still pretty pi**ed)

thanks for the heads up
but im sad and angry for you

 

[JewelledEscalators]

That is an excellent question, about market rates. That is exactly how grifters justify their behaviour. My husband is retired from a career as a Counselor in juvenile corrections. According to his clients’ thinking, if you leave your door unlocked, you asked to be burgled—it’s not their fault, it is yours.

Yes, one of the items I bought this year was an auction buy on eBay from a seller who is traded on the stock market and has over 138,000 feedbacks. It was a ‘deal’ if it was a ruby but daylight robbery if it was a lab ruby. It was sold as a ruby. They did not offer to pay for the cert, by the way, but they did give me my money back. No surprise or apology. They also block you from buying from them if you leave honest feedback, btw. If you remove it, they unblock you. I am very curious to see how eBay’s new Gia authentication process will effect their business model. Will they stay on eBay? Enquiring minds want to know!

The next situation was from a smaller seller who has 400 listings at a time On eBay. It was a fair price for a less than 1 ct green sapphire with zoning that was unheated, not a screaming hot deal. This seller was genuinely surprised, had trusted his supplier, and wanted to pay for the cert.

The last one this year was on instagram from a seller on the approved vendor list here. No storefront. A fair price, again, for a 1.25 peri Colored unheated sapphire. Again, shock surprise and offer to pay for the cert. Again, I think either a genuine mixup or the supplier is guilty.

So far on Etsy I have bought a small silky sapphire that certed as unheated AGL Gembrief and some cab rubies that also got a prestige report from AGL as unheated. Again, I felt that the prices were fair.

Re: price - I don't share the view that people deserve to be ripped off if they buy cheap. At the same time if we're talking about people buying a 10 carat crystal clear ruby for $50, I think it would be very unrealistic to think it's natural, but I guess you and most other PS'ers are not referring to this kind of thing.

Even when something is half the market rate, it should be what is described. I'm surprised that vendors don't know what they are selling. I guess they are relying on their own vendors.

Re: over 138,000 feedbacks - wow, that's an awful lot of stones someone has been selling. That number alone makes me a bit suspcious - it could be a big business but if so, they should know their stock, no?

I can understand people not testing very very small stones in antique rings for example, but if they're selling fair sized stones on its own, I wouldn't expect this kind of thing.

 

[JewelledEscalators]

What is interesting about the big name Jewelers is that they will no longer buy heated/treated colored stones, which tells me that they have! And sold them in the past. Educated consumers do make a difference. It is also telling when I ask a vintage jewelry store if a Colored stone is treated (this is on instagram when I have been to the physical store), after dming for the price, some never respond.

Yeah, I noticed some not so big jewellers doing the same. It's sustainable though is it, as there's not enough untreated coloured stones for everybody to be selling as their only stock.

 

[JewelledEscalators]

In that case I would find an independent appraiser/gemmologist (I went to school and lived in the UK) and negotiate a price for a description of my purchase. Not an insurance appraisal, but a check that you bought and received what was described. My local Jeweler also told me that her lapidary can tell if a stone is heated, so that could be another avenue.

I have found a slightly cheaper lab than others, but still it's not cheap. It's ok to do if the stone is above a certain value but not necessarily for low cost/small stones.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

surly regardless of price, consumer law is on our side and anything purchased should be as its described
selling dyed quarts for anything other than dyed quartz is deceitful

 

[JewelledEscalators]

I didn't realise there was such an issue with gem silica.

 

[LD]

The only issue is that lab certs have gotten so expensive - at least here in the UK.

Completely agree. I very rarely buy anything now because it’s so costly to have everything verified.

 

[T L]

I know. I thought it’s a reputable seller and that it would be ok… I might actually be better off buying off IG since some sellers actually look to have more legit stuff… anyway am still out of pocket of a few hundred. Lesson learnt.

The problem with some vendors is that they trust their own eyes so well, and they probably don’t keep up with the latest treatments and/or stimulants/synthetics, that they assume their source is impeccable and trustworthy. A good example of this now is spinel. You used to be able to buy a grayish stone and assume it’s natural, but now they’re synthesizing the grayish material. A vendor might not know this and every so often, a stone will fall through the cracks. Spinel is also being clarity enhanced, like emerald, so again, while most vendors assume no treatment, this is no longer a fail safe.

The important thing is that you buy a stone from a reputable person who will stand behind the material, and refund immediately if necessary. You did that, and you were safe, not so many people do, and even less will get proper report verification.

ETA: I saw you comment in the thread about the emerald, and I do like to give vendors the benefit of the doubt because I’ve seen some great ones get duped by their sources. However if he is knowingly sending the incorrect, not pictured stone to people, that is different.

 

[T L]

I didn't realise there was such an issue with gem silica.

They’re dying all sorts of gems that paraiba blue color these days. Ethiopian opal, which is porous, is also commonly dyed that color. Even gem silica itself is dyed to enhance the blue color it already has. You must be so careful when purchasing gem silica.

 

[kenny]

Trust but verify.
The verify part varies with the seller, and IMO eBay is one of the riskiest places to buy.
I never even window shop there.
And not being a gambler, hearing a zillion complaints about eBay itself, dishonest sellers and buyers, paypal headaches etc., I'd never buy anything on eBay, anything.

When a stone already has a report from, say, AGL, GIA, AGS the best verification possible has already taken place - but then you just have to verify the report and the stone match.
IMO verification is less of an imperative with vendors I trust like Whiteflash or Leibish.

I think of Sotheby's and Christie's as the ultimate in low-risk - but - ... even there - buyer beware ...

SNIP

Collector Stephanie Clegg bought a Marc Chagall painting for $90,000 at a Sothebyʼs auction in 1994, just nine years after the artistʼs death. Now this work has been recognized as a forgery and they want to destroy it, and the woman is suing the auction house.

The New York Times writes about it.

Two years ago, when she wanted to sell works from her collection, Sothebyʼs informed her that the painting must be sent to France, where a group of experts will check it for authenticity.

Clegg agreed because in 2008 this watercolor was already inspected and valued at $100,000. But this time, an expert group in Paris recognized her Chagall as a forgery, and the artistʼs heirs began to demand the arrest of the painting and its destruction.

When she complained to Sothebyʼs, the auction house said its guarantee of authenticity was only valid for a limited time.

The auction offered her a credit in the amount of $18.5 thousand to compensate Sothebyʼs commission if the woman decides to sell other works from her collection in the future, but Stephanie Clegg demands to pay her compensation — $175 thousand.

"I trusted them all these years. They were supposed to be authoritative experts, and I relied on their experience," says the collector.

But the auction house says there is no legal basis for compensation and that the discount it is offering on future sales corresponds to the royalties Sothebyʼs earned from the 1994 sale of the painting.

The collector bought Chagallʼs work for $90,000 in 1994. The picture was recognized as a fake only now and they want to destroy it

Collector Stephanie Clegg bought a Marc Chagall painting for $90,000 at a Sothebyʼs auction in 1994. Now it has been recognized as a fake and they want to destroy it

babel.ua

 

[T L]

Completely agree. I very rarely buy anything now because it’s so costly to have everything verified.

Lol, keeps us safe from spending too much!! The only thing I feel comfortable buying these days are garnets, from vendors I trust, because I hate spending extra on verification.

 

[2Neesers]

Thank you for sharing your experience @Mrsz1ppy . It’s an excellent reminder and lesson for us to verify what we have is what it was sold as. I had a situation several years ago and shared about it in this thread. I was surprised to see how many others here had similar experiences.

Have you ever unknowingly purchased a synthetic Sapphire or other CS?

I just found out I did. :wall: I had purchased my very first pre-loved finished piece of jewelry from Loupe Troop about a year ago. A lovely sapphire and diamond ring set in platinum. The ring was from a ps’er and came with an appraisal from a very well known retailer of estate pieces, so I...

www.pricescope.com

A year had passed since my purchase, so the seller offered me a $500 refund on my $2,350 purchase. In the end it was an expensive lesson learned, since I never could bring myself to reuse the setting the synthetic sapphire was set in. It just sits in the back corner of a drawer and I will most likely scrap it someday.

I‘ve only sent three other stones in for testing and they were all natural. I think I will send any sapphires I already own to the lab for testing before investing in having them set, just in case I need to sell them in the future.

 

[T L]

Trust but verify.
The verify part varies with the seller, and IMO eBay is one of the riskiest places to buy.
I never even window shop there.
And not being a gambler, hearing a zillion complaints about eBay itself, dishonest sellers and buyers, paypal headaches etc., I'd never buy anything on eBay, anything.

When a stone already has a report from, say, AGL, GIA, AGS the best verification possible has already taken place - but then you just have to verify the report and the stone match.
IMO verification is less of an imperative with vendors I trust like Whiteflash or Leibish.

I think of Sotheby's and Christie's as the ultimate in low-risk - but - ... even there - buyer beware ...

SNIP

Collector Stephanie Clegg bought a Marc Chagall painting for $90,000 at a Sothebyʼs auction in 1994, just nine years after the artistʼs death. Now this work has been recognized as a forgery and they want to destroy it, and the woman is suing the auction house.

The New York Times writes about it.

Two years ago, when she wanted to sell works from her collection, Sothebyʼs informed her that the painting must be sent to France, where a group of experts will check it for authenticity.

Clegg agreed because in 2008 this watercolor was already inspected and valued at $100,000. But this time, an expert group in Paris recognized her Chagall as a forgery, and the artistʼs heirs began to demand the arrest of the painting and its destruction.

When she complained to Sothebyʼs, the auction house said its guarantee of authenticity was only valid for a limited time.

The auction offered her a credit in the amount of $18.5 thousand to compensate Sothebyʼs commission if the woman decides to sell other works from her collection in the future, but Stephanie Clegg demands to pay her compensation — $175 thousand.

"I trusted them all these years. They were supposed to be authoritative experts, and I relied on their experience," says the collector.

But the auction house says there is no legal basis for compensation and that the discount it is offering on future sales corresponds to the royalties Sothebyʼs earned from the 1994 sale of the painting.

The collector bought Chagallʼs work for $90,000 in 1994. The picture was recognized as a fake only now and they want to destroy it

Collector Stephanie Clegg bought a Marc Chagall painting for $90,000 at a Sothebyʼs auction in 1994. Now it has been recognized as a fake and they want to destroy it

babel.ua

Kenny, that is so funny. When I was really young, I watched this program on PBS called “Nova.” It’s a science show and is still in existence on air, but they had this one episode, in the early 1980’s, that really stood out in my mind. It was an art forger who made such realistic examples of medieval art, that many museums were duped. I wish I could rewatch the episode. Some of these art forgers become so good at what they do, that their art becomes famous itself, and sells for a premium.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

Lol, keeps us safe from spending too much!! The only thing I feel comfortable buying these days are garnets, from vendors I trust, because I hate spending extra on verification.

Any thoughts on tourmaline TL?

I saw a GIA report for a $5000 tourmaline that GIA says it can't determine origin or work out if its been irradiated.

Kinda defeats the purpose of GIA for that stone.....

 

[T L]

Any thoughts on tourmaline TL?

I saw a GIA report for a $5000 tourmaline that GIA says it can't determine origin or work out if its been irradiated.

Kinda defeats the purpose of GIA for that stone.....

That’s why I don’t buy tourmaline anymore. I’m not saying that no one should ever buy it again, but I avoid certain stones these days, and that is one of them. Some vendors do cut their own material, and know their source pretty well, and well, maybe you’ll get lucky. I don’t want to be the bearer of all negativity and bad news on tourmaline. There are also some colors that are more suspect than others, so be careful. To be honest, I just gave up on tourmaline so long ago, I really haven’t researched what they’re doing to other colors these days.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

That’s why I don’t buy tourmaline anymore. I’m not saying that no one should ever buy it again, but I avoid certain stones these days, and that is one of them. Some vendors do cut their own material, and know their source pretty well, and well, maybe you’ll get lucky. I don’t want to be the bearer of all negativity and bad news on tourmaline.

Haha no it's cool! Thank you for sharing your thoughts!!!

I think it's fine to assume a risk if you know what it is and you're ok with it. Horrible if you had a whole set of different notions and expectations!

 

[Mrsz1ppy]

I got a batch of reports back from GIA yesterday. Very interesting the vendor response to a pearl I sent in. The selling description said natural blue pearl. GIA said bead cultured grey pearl. The vendor said she meant that the pearl wasn’t dyed blue, and that I should have checked with her before sending to the GIA. She will take it back, but not cover the certificate costs.
Another PS vendor.

 

[Mrsz1ppy]

I have a question for those who send their more valuable stones to AGL or GIA: Do you insure it? How do you know how much to insure it for-- do you go by the price you paid, which is on your receipt?

I send USPS registered mail. They will insure up to $50000 and it is under lock and key the whole way. That is for AGL, where a Gem Brief costs $70 unmounted, $80 mounted for smaller stones. My local jeweler sends to GIA for me, and has a jewellers coverage policy. I also prefer to use her because GIA puts the submitter‘s name on the report. AGL does not.

 

[AnastasiaBeaverhausen]

Now I'm nervous. I've bought a couple of CSs in the past where the vendor sold them as untreated or basic heat only, because larger ones in that same parcel came back as such. Now I don't know if it's worth submitting a lower value stone to a lab. Bah.

 

[T L]

Now I'm nervous. I've bought a couple of CSs in the past where the vendor sold them as untreated or basic heat only, because larger ones in that same parcel came back as such. Now I don't know if it's worth submitting a lower value stone to a lab. Bah.

It depends, if it was low cost, I wouldn’t worry about it. If it was beautiful and low cost, but you won’t set it unless you need it to be minimally treated or no treatment, then it might be worth it.

In a recent experience I had, I let emotion overcome me and I bought a stone that to me was extraordinary beautiful, and the price was too good to be true. I was incredibly stupid and I let emotion, not my logical brain, overcome me, kind of like Gollum in LOTR. I sent it to a lab with an FGA, GG emerald expert, and I got lucky, but if I did that all the time, it would be like gambling, and more often than not, I would lose.

 

[Cinders]

Stuff like this one is hard to find out there. (Almost opaque and grainy looking - easier to find)

2.8ct Arizona Gem Silica, Ray Mine - Missouri River Sapphire

Blue Green Gem Silica Cabochon from Ray Mine in Arizona, USA, natural durable quartz for daily wear, ringstone

missouririversapphire.co

Nothing compared to thousands of dollars per carat gems, but, Yeah- I think I’d want to know lab report on it, if it were mine.

Sorry for threadjack OP!

That is beautiful! But, I'm actually looking for one that is more opaque---a bit more like a gummi bear.

It’s an important topic that isn’t discussed much. Threadjack away!

Thank you for welcoming the discussion!

It cost nearly 1.2k so I would say it wasn’t a cheap buy.

I had purchased what was described to be an “exceptional untreated gem silica” from a highly recommended PS seller’s website. My trusted local laboratory has identified it to be a dyed quartzite instead.

Vendor pic:


Was refunded quite promptly but still out of pocket for taxes and the cert cost so it left a bad taste in my mouth from future purchases from that vendor.

So… Buyer beware! Not just the IG sellers that are dodgy. In fact so far I’ve been lucky so far for my various IG buys. All certed out ok. Unheated, type A, etc etc.

Wow, dyed quartzite is wildly different than gem silica. How frustrating and shocking!

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

I got a batch of reports back from GIA yesterday. Very interesting the vendor response to a pearl I sent in. The selling description said natural blue pearl. GIA said bead cultured grey pearl. The vendor said she meant that the pearl wasn’t dyed blue, and that I should have checked with her before sending to the GIA. She will take it back, but not cover the certificate costs.
Another PS vendor.

its BS isnt it
im sorry you will be out of pocket
this thread is scaring me sh*tless to be honest
lucky my mistake was under $100 and i learnt a good lesson but i do want to buy loose gemstones in the future

i brought 'Genuine' Italian Larimar thinking that Italian was more like a brand name/colloquial term rather than being dyed Italian Pectolite (but its probably just dyed quartz)
i only discovered it because the dye rubbed off inside the baseball cap i had them sitting in while i admired them
i know now the price was too cheap but its not like it was ridiculously cheap.
......im going to need so much help from PS when i do buy gem stones

 

[KeepStepping]

Well this thread just put the fear of God into me. I have a tendency to trust vendors who have been trustworthy in the past, but this is such a great reminder to check and verify.