Trustworthy gem reports?

[Bazelgeuse]

If I buy a colored stone from india, certified through ‘IGITL’ can I trust that the gem is what they say it is? Would the info on the report be accurate? It seems like a lot of sellers use this lab

 

[JackTrick]

No, I don’t believe you could reliably trust it.

 

[Autumn in New England]

I've never heard of this lab, so I would not rely upon its findings. The following labs are ones the majority of us trust:

Gubelin
SSEF
AGL
GIA
CDC
GRS
Lotus
And possibly AIGS

 

[LilAlex]

CDC

wait is this one a test? I heard nobody trusts the CDC anymore

Actually I do -- but I don't recognize that one.

Dunaigre is also pretty good.

GIC in Colombo is OK, no? Never used them for a high-end stone that could be susceptible to subtle adulteration.

 

[Autumn in New England]

wait is this one a test? I heard nobody trusts the CDC anymore

Actually I do -- but I don't recognize that one.

Dunaigre is also pretty good.

GIC in Colombo is OK, no? Never used them for a high-end stone that could be susceptible to subtle adulteration.

CDC, in this case, stands for C. Dunaigre Consulting. They ask that all gems are properly masked prior to submission.

Not familiar with GIC myself!

 

[fredflintstone]

Being former dealer there are literally dozens of labs out there. Many most consumers never heard of or run into rarely. Many of these labs are legitimate and some are not. That is where you need to do your research. Google time or ask a vendor you trust.

The "IGITL" -"International Gemological Institute and Testing Laboratory" is legitimate and located in Jaipur, India, the hub trading center for all gemstones in India. Jaipur is a major world trading gemstone city, one of the most important.

For the OP's needs, this lab is fine.

Of course, beware of fake reports. Always check the report ID with the associated lab.

 

[Autumn in New England]

Being former dealer there are literally dozens of labs out there. Many most consumers never heard of or run into rarely. Many of these labs are legitimate and some are not. That is where you need to do your research. Google time or ask a vendor you trust.

The "IGITL" -"International Gemological Institute and Testing Laboratory" is legitimate and located in Jaipur, India, the hub trading center for all gemstones in India. Jaipur is a major world trading gemstone city, one of the most important.

For the OP's needs, this lab is fine.

Of course, beware of fake reports. Always check the report ID with the associated lab.

Hey fred! It seems dealers in these major gem hubs really rely on local labs for the volume of business that is done there. It's just not feasible for them to send everything out to one of the main labs, especially with the less valuable material. I agree that many of them may be legit (and many not), but my concern is with their capabilities. If OP is buying a $300 stone in a gem variety that is easily identifiable and isn't known to be treated, he/she may be ok. But if OP is buying a $10,000 stone in a gem variety where clever synthetics exist and/or treatments run rampant and require specialized equipment and expertise to detect, he/she may want to look into recertifying. I just wanted to make that distinction to keep everyone safe.

 

[fredflintstone]

Hey fred! It seems dealers in these major gem hubs really rely on local labs for the volume of business that is done there. It's just not feasible for them to send everything out to one of the main labs, especially with the less valuable material. I agree that many of them may be legit (and many not), but my concern is with their capabilities. If OP is buying a $300 stone in a gem variety that is easily identifiable and isn't known to be treated, he/she may be ok. But if OP is buying a $10,000 stone in a gem variety where clever synthetics exist and/or treatments run rampant and require specialized equipment and expertise to detect, he/she may want to look into recertifying. I just wanted to make that distinction to keep everyone safe.

A highly qualified gemologist at a lab that see's 1000's of Sapphires a year 99.9% of the time can tell you if they're BE treated or not, synthetic or not, just by a microscope. I know, I've had them tell me so & then sent them to a larger lab for a second opinion. They are always right.

You must understand these are professionals with huge knowledge by virtue of experience. Most consumers would never know about them, but professionals rely on them, and we must be right or else, problems with customers with treated and synthetic Sapphires and Rubies, or any other stone for that matter.

 

[Autumn in New England]

"I know, I've had them tell me so & then sent them to a larger lab for a second opinion. They are always right." So then we agree... it's good to have a major lab confirm findings. I just think it's a bit risky to say these local offices are "always right." I'm glad you had good experiences with some of them.

It's funny this topic would come up actually, because I was just reading an article that included a quote by our old friend Arnold Silverberg (of AJS). He had this to say on the topic...

"Because light element beryllium cannot be detected using standard gemological equipment, a laser must be used to take tiny samples of the material, which are then vaporized and analyzed by a specialized spectrometer. The devices used to do this are known as LIBS (Laser Induced Breakdown Spectrometer) and LA-ICP-MS (Laser Ablation Inductively Couple Plasma Mass Spectrometer). Very few gemological laboratories can afford to buy and maintain this equipment."

As you may recall, he fell victim to purchasing a very large and expensive parcel of BE treated yellow sapphire several years back. He's a veteran buyer and G.G. who took the word of other professionals in Jaipur (who may have also been scammed). When he had the stones tested by GRS and then GIA in Bangkok, he got quite the surprise.

The GIA also said something very similar...

"Indications of beryllium enhancement may be observed under a microscope, but confirmation requires testing using Laser Ablation Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectroscopy (LA-ICP-MS) or Laser Induced Breakdown Spectroscopy (LIBS)."

I can't find any credentials on the head of "IGITL" (Mustaqeem Khan) or any information on the office's testing techniques/equipment. I'm not saying he's unqualified (though I remain unconvinced), but, again, I question the lab's capabilities.

So when a new member asks a question like this, as a fellow consumer, I feel the need to err on the side of caution, and advise them to have significant purchases evaluated by an accredited lab. I can't, in good conscience, say "it'll probably be fine!" At the end of the day though, I guess it's up to every individual to decide for themselves.

Here's the "IGITL" for anyone interested. An adorable village, to be sure, but if they're hiding a LIBS machine in there, I'll eat my new bathmat.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

I think unless you know what you're doing, or are of a more adventurous "risk for rewards" nature, stick to the usual rules that are frequently dispensed.

*Only use/trust the well known famous labs

*Pay by PayPal

 

[icy_jade]

Food for thought… Which lab do you trust the most?

 

[fredflintstone]

"I know, I've had them tell me so & then sent them to a larger lab for a second opinion. They are always right." So then we agree... it's good to have a major lab confirm findings. I just think it's a bit risky to say these local offices are "always right." I'm glad you had good experiences with some of them.

It's funny this topic would come up actually, because I was just reading an article that included a quote by our old friend Arnold Silverberg (of AJS). He had this to say on the topic...

"Because light element beryllium cannot be detected using standard gemological equipment, a laser must be used to take tiny samples of the material, which are then vaporized and analyzed by a specialized spectrometer. The devices used to do this are known as LIBS (Laser Induced Breakdown Spectrometer) and LA-ICP-MS (Laser Ablation Inductively Couple Plasma Mass Spectrometer). Very few gemological laboratories can afford to buy and maintain this equipment."

As you may recall, he fell victim to purchasing a very large and expensive parcel of BE treated yellow sapphire several years back. He's a veteran buyer and G.G. who took the word of other professionals in Jaipur (who may have also been scammed). When he had the stones tested by GRS and then GIA in Bangkok, he got quite the surprise.

The GIA also said something very similar...

"Indications of beryllium enhancement may be observed under a microscope, but confirmation requires testing using Laser Ablation Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectroscopy (LA-ICP-MS) or Laser Induced Breakdown Spectroscopy (LIBS)."

I can't find any credentials on the head of "IGITL" (Mustaqeem Khan) or any information on the office's testing techniques/equipment. I'm not saying he's unqualified (though I remain unconvinced), but, again, I question the lab's capabilities.

So when a new member asks a question like this, as a fellow consumer, I feel the need to err on the side of caution, and advise them to have significant purchases evaluated by an accredited lab. I can't, in good conscience, say "it'll probably be fine!" At the end of the day though, I guess it's up to every individual to decide for themselves.

Here's the "IGITL" for anyone interested. An adorable village, to be sure, but if they're hiding a LIBS machine in there, I'll eat my new bathmat.

That was true with LIBS technology and many labs still use it, but Jaipur was not where Arnold was buying BE treated Sapphires (and I doubt very much he looked to India for advice as Thailand brokered 80% of the worlds colored stones at that time), it was in Thailand and invented by cookers in Thailand (by chance), and everyone got taken, not just Arnold, everyone. But that was then, and this is now. The GIA article was 2006.


There are very telltale signs of BE treatment. High temperature heat to the point of melting the crystal lattice and re-healing fractures. BE treatment was first discovered in 2002, by the labs, but it had been around at least since the late 90's. After 21 years, trained experienced gemologist can identify them 99.9% of the time.

As a consumer, I don't expect you to know this or believe it, then again I've been wrong before. Take it for what you will. No problem. Same goes for your observation on The "IGITL" -"International Gemological Institute and Testing Laboratory" I have used them and so has many other dealers I know. I'm not telling the consumers here what lab to trust or not, because that is a personal decision. I'm just telling my experiences.

Here is an excerpt:

"During the 1990s, the treatment was hard to detect, since the coloring agent penetrated deeply and uniformly into the stone. As a result, many of these treated sapphires were mistaken for natural padparadschas. Now that we’re entering 2020, trained gemologists are able to detect this sapphire treatment much easier and much more efficiently." - https://www.thenaturalsapphirecompa...-asked-questions/heat-treatment-in-sapphires/ _

And before there are rants about "the Natural Sapphire Company, what the article says is very true. They have been in business a long time, whether people like them or not they know Sapphires, but the owner has done some questionable things...and that is for another time and thread.

Getting late. Bedtime! Goodnight.

 

[fredflintstone]

Food for thought… Which lab do you trust the most?

Well, there you go and good point! But origin is always an educated guess. That is why they're called reports and not certs.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

Food for thought… Which lab do you trust the most?

At least it's all no heat!!!

 

[E H]

Food for thought… Which lab do you trust the most?

I had a similar experience with AGL several years ago. I bought a unheated blue sapphire with a not so an old AGL stating that the stone is ceylon origin. Then i resubmit it to AGL again and came out madagascar. C. Smith told me that the advancement in research and discoveries may change the conclusion. He also mention that ceylon and madagascar origin shares similar characteristics.

Both certs state that stone is unheated

In the end, i got an extra discount from the seller. The same stone, the same beauty, with an extra discount? I will take it all day.

 

[Rfisher]

For the OP's needs, this lab is fine.

How do we know what the OP’s needs are?
What are those needs?
What would alternate needs be, that this lab wouldn’t be fine?

Honest question, Fred. I’m curious and learning.

 

[fredflintstone]

How do we know what the OP’s needs are?
What are those needs?
What would alternate needs be, that this lab wouldn’t be fine?

Honest question, Fred. I’m curious and learning.

I think I've already explained that Rfisher, but I''m happy to sum it up quickly, then there is really nothing else I can say.

If this lab is good enough for many honest dealers to use, it is good enough for consumers too, but I can't make consumers believe that one way or another, and I'm not going to try any further other than to say this. Just because people have not heard of something does not automatically make it bad, or even mediocre, nor does it make it good. One can only know through experience and in the world of gemstones there is always something that most have not heard of, or is new, whether it be labs, treatments, new gemstones, etc.

Whether anyone as a buyer chooses to trust this lab or what I say is their own choice. I'm here to give my experience, and it is open for people to take it as they will. I have no problem with that either way.

I wish you all well.

 

[Rfisher]

If this lab is good enough for many honest dealers to use, it is good enough for consumers too

Ok - I get this now.
I honestly read your other comment that ones ‘needs’ was going to be a varying parameter.

I'm here to give my experience, and it is open for people to take it as they will. I have no problem with that either way.

I wish you all well.

Thumbs up!

 

[fredflintstone]

Ok - I get this now.
I honestly read your other comment that ones ‘needs’ was going to be a varying parameter.


Thumbs up!

Thank you!

 

[Autumn in New England]

Origin has always been an educated guess, and every lab will tell you that. In 2023, treatments should not be. So I wouldn't call this a mistake, but let's say, for arguments sake, it is. Two or maybe all three of these labs are "wrong." Here's what I liken it to... board certified surgeons can make mistakes. But if you need a procedure done, are you going to the board certified surgeon or the guy in the alley with the folding table and kitchen knife? He may be great at what he does, faster, and far less expensive. But I'm not chancing it on my dime. Remember, trade members eventually sell their wares. We will presumably have them for life. So while I agree that locals must depend on these sorts of offices for volume evaluations (and that it's simply not feasible to send everything out to a major lab), I, as the end-consumer, would recertify to be safe and suggest others do as well.

 

[maru8888777]

I thought I'd link this thread from a while back about the same subject. It doesn't deal with the OP's specific lab, but there's a discussion about smaller, local labs and equipment that I thought might be useful:

The best gem labs

This website below seems to have one of the most wide ranging listing. Of course the Swiss labs are tops but often when we are buying gems in Sri Lanka, Jaipur etc we need a local lab that we can trust to confirm heated treated or not etc. This should probably be a poll, and maybe a poll could...

www.pricescope.com

 

[Autumn in New England]

That was true with LIBS technology and many labs still use it, but Jaipur was not where Arnold was buying BE treated Sapphires (and I doubt very much he looked to India for advice as Thailand brokered 80% of the worlds colored stones at that time), it was in Thailand and invented by cookers in Thailand (by chance), and everyone got taken, not just Arnold, everyone. But that was then, and this is now. The GIA article was 2006.


There are very telltale signs of BE treatment. High temperature heat to the point of melting the crystal lattice and re-healing fractures. BE treatment was first discovered in 2002, by the labs, but it had been around at least since the late 90's. After 21 years, trained experienced gemologist can identify them 99.9% of the time.

As a consumer, I don't expect you to know this or believe it, then again I've been wrong before. Take it for what you will. No problem. Same goes for your observation on The "IGITL" -"International Gemological Institute and Testing Laboratory" I have used them and so has many other dealers I know. I'm not telling the consumers here what lab to trust or not, because that is a personal decision. I'm just telling my experiences.

Here is an excerpt:

"During the 1990s, the treatment was hard to detect, since the coloring agent penetrated deeply and uniformly into the stone. As a result, many of these treated sapphires were mistaken for natural padparadschas. Now that we’re entering 2020, trained gemologists are able to detect this sapphire treatment much easier and much more efficiently." - https://www.thenaturalsapphirecompa...-asked-questions/heat-treatment-in-sapphires/ _

And before there are rants about "the Natural Sapphire Company, what the article says is very true. They have been in business a long time, whether people like them or not they know Sapphires, but the owner has done some questionable things...and that is for another time and thread.

Getting late. Bedtime! Goodnight.

But manufacturers in Jaipur absolutely BE treat their stones. The GIA published an article in 2016 about this exact topic, discussing how India has advanced their treatment technology in order to compete with Thailand and Sri Lanka. "Large amounts of this material flow into Jaipur." So that's the issue here. As their treatment technology has advanced, so should their treatment detection technology. And it hasn't. Ultimately, we'll have to agree to disagree that any gemologist (and that term should only apply to graduates from very select institutions) can detect BE treatments with non-specialized instruments. At the end of the day, I believe we should rely upon gem authorities for this information, and not anecdotal info, and I must advise the same to others. I hope you understand.

The issue I have with the NSC is that, again, they're a vendor, not an authoritative source. And they benefit from reassuring customers that their uncertified gems are as described. The majority of their gems are uncertified, which always seemed strange to me, since they are down the street from the GIA. But, I digress. I am in no way saying they misrepresent their gems. However, I would definitely have any purchase certified to be sure.

I understand this is your opinion and experience, fred, and I totally respect that. I just think we need to be careful when we say any unaccredited, foreign (or domestic!) lab is definitively legit, and that, for OP's needs (which we still don't know), it will be "fine." Trust, but verify has always been the motto on PS, and I clearly subscribe to it.

You and I are old pros at challenging one another at this point, my friend! I think it's quite healthy to have these debates. No offense intended to anyone with my little diatribe here. I just have to stick to my guns knowing that gem collecting neophytes are watching and (hopefully) learning. I feel we almost have a duty to be assiduous here.

 

[LilAlex]

If this lab is good enough for many honest dealers to use, it is good enough for consumers too, but I can't make consumers believe that one way or another,

I do not agree with this. Sellers -- especially sellers to one-off strangers over the internet -- mostly need inexpensively-acquired plausible deniability. This is like selling used cars; the seller and buyer need different levels of due diligence.

I have a small sapphire with a Dunaigre Burma origin and an AGL Sri Lanka origin. It was sold to me with both reports, but as a Sri Lanka sapphire. A less scrupulous vendor could have cherry-picked the more desirable report. EDIT: this was a vendor whose name I mention a lot.

 

[Autumn in New England]

I do not agree with this. Sellers -- especially sellers to one-off strangers over the internet -- mostly need inexpensively-acquired plausible deniability. This is like selling used cars; the seller and buyer need different levels of due diligence.

That is my point... which you articulated far better. Sellers sell. Buyers buy. That's why the saying is "buyer beware" and not "seller beware."

 

[LilAlex]

...and about this, which @icy_jade posted above (and I know this was not her question):



...I guess I would care less about the actual unprovable origin story than I would about the report because, when it comes to resale, who's going to believe my repeating of the miner's tale?

You can buy a Chevy at a BMW dealership (they take trade-ins) but it's hard to convince others that it's a BMW. If a stone has all the features and footprints of a lower-prestige origin, that's kind of the breaks. Clearly plenty break the other way (see my example above).

And Madagascar is no disgrace! Fast becoming a prestige origin, right? For a true gorgeous unheated blue, I do not really care about origin and would accept the cheapest origin that would get me the look I am after.

I presume that the origin-making material upon which reporting standards have relied derive from the oldest and finest sources -- like Muzo emeralds, Mogok ruby, and old-school Kashmir sapphire. It would not surprise me if other, later sources within the same country (what is a "country," really, geologically) differed significantly from the "index" (gold standard) material in that region.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

Icy's post really makes me think that at the end of the day you're probably paying for a report that looks good in the event that you need to hock off the stone one day. Who knows if what is on it is true or not but GRS is trusted so it's nice to have something that future buyers will accept when you need to offload the stone.

 

[fredflintstone]

I do not agree with this. Sellers -- especially sellers to one-off strangers over the internet -- mostly need inexpensively-acquired plausible deniability. This is like selling used cars; the seller and buyer need different levels of due diligence.

I have a small sapphire with a Dunaigre Burma origin and an AGL Sri Lanka origin. It was sold to me with both reports, but as a Sri Lanka sapphire. A less scrupulous vendor could have cherry-picked the more desirable report. EDIT: this was a vendor whose name I mention a lot.

Thank for your opinion. I respect it, but not exactly what I was saying through experience of dealing with many obscure labs to the buying public that were/are very good at what they do, at a lesser cost. The more they become more known, the higher their prices will become, plus many of these are not rich countries, so they will be cheaper. Nevertheless, thanks for your reply, LilAlex.

 

[fredflintstone]

Icy's post really makes me think that at the end of the day you're probably paying for a report that looks good in the event that you need to hock off the stone one day. Who knows if what is on it is true or not but GRS is trusted so it's nice to have something that future buyers will accept when you need to offload the stone.

Very true and many dealers use the GRS because they are more lax (Pidgeon's Blood) and cheaper, yet they are good at what they do.

 

[fredflintstone]

But manufacturers in Jaipur absolutely BE treat their stones. The GIA published an article in 2016 about this exact topic, discussing how India has advanced their treatment technology in order to compete with Thailand and Sri Lanka. "Large amounts of this material flow into Jaipur." So that's the issue here. As their treatment technology has advanced, so should their treatment detection technology. And it hasn't. Ultimately, we'll have to agree to disagree that any gemologist (and that term should only apply to graduates from very select institutions) can detect BE treatments with non-specialized instruments. At the end of the day, I believe we should rely upon gem authorities for this information, and not anecdotal info, and I must advise the same to others. I hope you understand.

The issue I have with the NSC is that, again, they're a vendor, not an authoritative source. And they benefit from reassuring customers that their uncertified gems are as described. The majority of their gems are uncertified, which always seemed strange to me, since they are down the street from the GIA. But, I digress. I am in no way saying they misrepresent their gems. However, I would definitely have any purchase certified to be sure.

I understand this is your opinion and experience, fred, and I totally respect that. I just think we need to be careful when we say any unaccredited, foreign (or domestic!) lab is definitively legit, and that, for OP's needs (which we still don't know), it will be "fine." Trust, but verify has always been the motto on PS, and I clearly subscribe to it.

You and I are old pros at challenging one another at this point, my friend! I think it's quite healthy to have these debates. No offense intended to anyone with my little diatribe here. I just have to stick to my guns knowing that gem collecting neophytes are watching and (hopefully) learning. I feel we almost have a duty to be assiduous here.

India and Sri Lanka only BE treated their stones after the Thai cookers led the way. Thai cookers always lead the way. 2016 is a long time after the Thai cookers were doing it in the late 90's, possibly earlier.

As far as the NSC goes, there are dealers who are every bit as capable of identifying gemstone treatment including BE treatment as lab gemologists, many are gemologists, but that is not a necessity if you had enough hands on experience through years of being in the business. They been doing it for years, There is no replacement for experience in the field. Gem dealers in source countries have been selling gemstones within their families for generations. They've grown up selling stones. They live, eat and breath selling stones. There is no higher precedent than that. In the trade it is all based on trust, 90% of the gemstones first world countries consumers buy were bought from an dealer who bought from a source dealer based on trust. Not 100% foolproof yes, but it is a system that has worked for centuries.

You write, unaccredited. Unaccredited to who, the GIA, or other major American, European, or Thai labs? The world just does not revolve around them, though people in many first world countries do, and that is fine, I have no problem with that.

Yes, we will agree to disagree. I coming from the industry and you the consumer. Being a consumer, it is only understandable you would want what you feel is the best lab to report on the stones you buy. Only smart, and even though most experienced gemstone dealers already know what they have and its treatments, they know the consumer wants a report and that is why they get reports. Reports, sell stones, but when people start asking for reports on Tanzanite, Peridot, Garnets, Tourmalines, this is overkill. Who benefits from that? The labs do, deserving or not. Something to ponder.



Wish you well.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

@fredflintstone I would love to know (and I'll never be able to find out so it's moot) how many gems a Gemologist at the much lauded AGL sees verses the Gemologist in some back water lab closer to the source.

Which then also raises the question, are all GIAs and GRS offices equal?

How far do you take it? Do you then fly to the holy grail destination to get a report for your stone because the office in Asia is undesirable by comparison? You could potentially keep raising the bar.

I think the intimidating thing for newbies is when you're new, you first learn not to buy at the mall. Then you go read stuff online and it opens a crazy new can of worms.

I remember fussing over my diamonds back in the diamond forum when everyone was banging on about cuts etc. ACAs were the platinum standard.

Got myself an ACA bangle, love it, wear it heaps, nothing wrong with it but after a few years and many many many more gems and settings, I personally don't think it's worth the ho hum, especially for smaller sized stones.

I guess the challenge for many newbies is to get to the point where they're confident with the decisions they make and the risks they take.