Unheated Sapphire from Jeff White - Should I get a Cert?

[T L]

Date: 12/13/2008 12:01:31 AM
Author: Linda W
Now how would you know there was a ton of impulse purchasing??? Mine was not an impulse purchase. I happen to collect pads, like you collect diamonds. To make that statement is very offensive to me, as to the other PSers as well.

I never said you personally were impulse purchasing, but the fact of the matter is that almost all the stones he put up instantaneously sold out in a day, even one very included and average colored stone sold, and I''m not going to say which stone it was. I''m sorry you feel that way, and I''m sorry you''re offended. That is not my intention. My intention on this board is to help people make wise decisions on colored gems, and not to say, "oh just buy it, it''s the greatest thing I ever saw." I''ve been gem collecting for over 20 years, so I''ve seen a lot.

 

[Linda W]

All of his stones sell out in one day. Not just last night, I am sure he has tons of customers, not just here on PS.

 

[Harriet]

I''ll have to tease Jeff about his groupies.

If I may say so, brendaman has sufficient material here from which to make her decision. Let''s not colour it (pun intended).

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Tourmaline lover, you are certainly correct that some of those stones were more desirable than others. I thought both the pad and blue sapphires were beautiful, but there were some that I wouldn''t have wanted. I understand that you are trying to help brendaman be cautious, and I am certainly not a groupie. I do appreciate the cut quality of Jeff''s work, though. I did send for a sapphire one time and return it because it had eye visible inclusions from the top, which I can''t handle. It was magnificent in every other way, though!

 

[coatimundi_org]

Date: 12/13/2008 12:32:17 AM
Author: Harriet
I'll have to tease Jeff about his groupies.

If I may say so, brendaman has sufficient material here from which to make her decision. Let's not colour it (pun intended).

Indeed!

I don't understand the aversion. If one likes the stone, one may purchase. It makes no difference what others think.

 

[brendaman]

As always, PSers have been incredibly helpful and always informative. I haven't heard from Jeff since leaving him a message yesterday (12/12). I do hope he didn't mind my posting all the info here on PS. In my excitement, I forgot to ask him whether it was permissible to post the details and pics of the stone which he made available via Gemscoop. Eeek!

Assuming Jeff doesn't take the "right of first refusal" away from me for doing a premature posting, I think I would have the ring appraised, insured, certified, made and then appraised again. Personally, if I get an unheated sapphire, I'd like the cert. I want that little piece of paper tucked away somewhere just for the pure pleasure of having that piece of paper to look at from time to time. Some may think this may be whacked or that the cert. would be unnecessary, but it is my choice, and it's great to have a choice.

I would have the stone sent to Martin Fuller (he's local for me, being based out of McLean, VA, and found lots of praise for him here on PS) for an appraisal, and then I would view the stone with him or should I view the stone first and then take it to Martin for the appraisal?? I've heard Martin can be backed up for 2 weeks at a time. So, if I change my mind after the appraisal which would be weeks after receiving the stone, then I'm out of luck? I suppose it's best if I ask Jeff to send it to me right before the appraiser is ready to look at it, but is that fair to others waiting in line?

It would however make more sense to view the stone first before sending it to the appraiser as why pay for the services of an appraiser if I didn't like the stone. Then if I like the stone and if it is appraised well, I would have it insured and sent to a lab for a cert -- although probably not a full one which costs $500 or more, just one to ensure that it is unheated (I think some of you said that this would be maybe about $300 or so. I'll probably work with the appraiser to determine the best logistics and how to send it to a lab, etc.

I probably will use Shah&Shah to do the custom work, but I wonder if they do appraisals as well (we have an appt. with them this afternoon for my bf to see this ring which I posted about some days ago). I have a pic of Jeff's unheated sapphire and will ask them if they could work with a stone not purchased through one of their sources and ask them for their opinion about logistics of getting the stone appraised, insured, certified, made. Then once the ring is made, would have the ring appraised by Martin Fuller. I suppose it would all work better if S&S are certified appraisers. It doesn't really say so on their site. Oh choices, choices. Maybe it's not so good to have too many. And I haven't even gone through the potential logistics with my bf. His head will be spinning that that S&S ring, already pre-made with the bargain price, will look better and better to him.

Last night, I started to tell my bf about the complicated logistics, and he said he was too tired to hear it.

I know he thinks I've become too obsessed about this ring. But I did give him the choice of doing the shopping all on his own the other day, and he refused. Quite honetly, I couldn't sleep last night thinking about all of the above (yes, deciding on the setting has taken a back seat for the moment). But I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. It's just we're probably still miles away from the tunnel.

ETA: As always, your comments on the above would be greatly appreaciated!

Brenda

 

[elmo]

You guys are making this difficult. Standard procedure is to 1) only buy something that has a no-questions asked return period so you can make sure you like it in person and get to see in various lighting; then 2) once you've determined you'd like to purchase it, make the sale contingent upon a satisfactory result from a lab you both agree on. Pay for the stone, take a look, return if it's not what you want, else mail to the lab if you like it. For #2 you've committed to buy unless there's an undisclosed treatment; also make sure the seller agrees to this up front.

I like AGL myself (a full report on a 3 carat sapphire without origin is closer to $250 than what was mentioned) but many sellers would prefer AGTA or GIA; for this I'd probably get an AGTA report which is about $175 plus shipping; don't worry about origin for this which costs more.

For something that can be treated where the treatment has significant impact on value, I disagree with folks who say to get an appraisal only or to simply trust the seller with no report. If the seller has obtained a report from a lab you trust, then yes, that is sufficient. (Although there's nothing wrong with a second lab opinion, which you probably want anyway for something more expensive.)

By all means ask the seller if they'll back up the untreated claim with a lab report. If they won't (reasonable for something not so expensive), figure the cost of the report as part of the purchase price. The best sellers will refund the report cost if the untreated claim turns out to be incorrect. But worst case you're out $200 and you can write about it here.

Good luck.

 

[T L]

Brendaman,
I do think it''s very nice of him to oblige you on making the first decision on the stone instead of selling it to the first person that sends him the cash. Therefore, this does give you some time to make an educated and wise decision, and I think you''re doing a great job because you know what you want as far as this stone is concerned.

 

[T L]

Date: 12/13/2008 1:33:38 AM
Author: coatimundi

Date: 12/13/2008 12:32:17 AM
Author: Harriet
I''ll have to tease Jeff about his groupies.

If I may say so, brendaman has sufficient material here from which to make her decision. Let''s not colour it (pun intended).

Indeed!

I don''t understand the aversion. If one likes the stone, one may purchase. It makes no difference what others think.

That''s true Coati, but Brendaman was asking opinions, so I felt obliged to give them, as well as many other helpful PS''ers, including the people that have been very satisfied with Jeff''s other stones. In the end, I think no matter what stone she gets, she''ll be a happy person.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Date: 12/12/2008 11:22:34 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006

Date: 12/12/2008 11:17:58 PM

Author: LostSapphire

Beautiful Blue. That stone is gorgeous.


When I purchased my stone from Jeff, it came with a ''certificate of gem Identification'' from a lab in Sri Lanka.


It has basic dimension information and stone description. Then it has what looks to me, to be basic test results, it is signed by a Consultant Gemologist with accreditation from England.


Frankly, it doesn''t mean much to me except I think it''s kind of cool to have it. I guess I didn''t need a certificate to tell me what my own eyes were seeing: a stone that I loved.


When I had my ring appraised, I brought along all of Jeff''s documentation, including this ''certificate''. The appraiser looked at it AFTER he had done the appraisal. I don''t see any discrepancy in what the appraiser judged, and the cert AND Jeff''s description of the stone himself.


As Neatfreak says, you could always get it done afterwards once you have the ring and it''s all insured.

Just to clarify, LS, wasn''t your stone a recut of a native cut stone? That is why that stone was purchased by Jeff with a cert. I am assuming that the oval was cut from rough, but I am not sure since he didn''t say in the email. Nevertheless, he apparently doesn''t have one or he would have told brendaman.

I would assume that this stone is also a recut. Ceylon sapphires in the rough are never available, all US cutters who offer these stones are recutting native cut stones.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 12/13/2008 8:21:51 AM
Author: elmo
You guys are making this difficult. Standard procedure is to 1) only buy something that has a no-questions asked return period so you can make sure you like it in person and get to see in various lighting; then 2) once you''ve determined you''d like to purchase it, make the sale contingent upon a satisfactory result from a lab you both agree on. Pay for the stone, take a look, return if it''s not what you want, else mail to the lab if you like it. For #2 you''ve committed to buy unless there''s an undisclosed treatment; also make sure the seller agrees to this up front.

I like AGL myself (a full report on a 3 carat sapphire without origin is closer to $250 than what was mentioned) but many sellers would prefer AGTA or GIA; for this I''d probably get an AGTA report which is about $175 plus shipping; don''t worry about origin for this which costs more.

For something that can be treated where the treatment has significant impact on value, I disagree with folks who say to get an appraisal only or to simply trust the seller with no report. If the seller has obtained a report from a lab you trust, then yes, that is sufficient. (Although there''s nothing wrong with a second lab opinion, which you probably want anyway for something more expensive.)

By all means ask the seller if they''ll back up the untreated claim with a lab report. If they won''t (reasonable for something not so expensive), figure the cost of the report as part of the purchase price. The best sellers will refund the report cost if the untreated claim turns out to be incorrect. But worst case you''re out $200 and you can write about it here.

Good luck.

This is a succinct outline of how to proceed, IMO. Bendaman, I think you are introducing a few extra steps into the process that may not be required and coule indeed make the process overly-complex... especially getting your B&Ms opiniin. They will be motivated to sell you their own goods, so I would really try to keep the certification process etc out of their hands. Follow Elmo''s advice, it is great, and from what you have told us, Jeff will indeed abide by all the key contingencies Elmo mentioned.

 

[shinyrocks]

Date: 12/13/2008 9:50:05 AM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 12/13/2008 1:33:38 AM
Author: coatimundi

Date: 12/13/2008 12:32:17 AM
Author: Harriet
I''ll have to tease Jeff about his groupies.

If I may say so, brendaman has sufficient material here from which to make her decision. Let''s not colour it (pun intended).

Indeed!

I don''t understand the aversion. If one likes the stone, one may purchase. It makes no difference what others think.

That''s true Coati, but Brendaman was asking opinions, so I felt obliged to give them, as well as many other helpful PS''ers, including the people that have been very satisfied with Jeff''s other stones. In the end, I think no matter what stone she gets, she''ll be a happy person.

And as long as everyone else''s opinon agrees with your opinion, everything is OK, right? Otherwise, you seem have a problem with it

. I must say that you seem to have an unusually negative opinion of Jeff, considering you have apparently never worked with him and had never heard of him until recently. I, like the others, also don''t appreciate you implying that those who buy from him are impulse shoppers incapable of making a rational decision without your "help" and education. I can tell you that his clients on here love his work, and several of them have been at this far longer than 20 years, so I''m quite sure we have at least a few among us that might be able to "hold their own" with your gem-buying prowess and knowledge. His stones have been regular features on this board for the last couple of years, and you won''t find anyone, I''d wager, that hasn''t had a positive experience with him. That''s not to say that every gem purchased has been kept. There have been some folks that have returned his stones, and those stories are recounted here as well. I personally don''t fit into the "veteran" gem buyer category myself, but having talked with Jeff several times, I feel completely comfortable with him.

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but I think all here would appreciate it if you wouldn''t berate them for theirs....

 

[T L]

Date: 12/13/2008 12:21:53 PM
Author: shinyrocks

Date: 12/13/2008 9:50:05 AM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 12/13/2008 1:33:38 AM
Author: coatimundi

Date: 12/13/2008 12:32:17 AM
Author: Harriet
I'll have to tease Jeff about his groupies.

If I may say so, brendaman has sufficient material here from which to make her decision. Let's not colour it (pun intended).

Indeed!

I don't understand the aversion. If one likes the stone, one may purchase. It makes no difference what others think.

That's true Coati, but Brendaman was asking opinions, so I felt obliged to give them, as well as many other helpful PS'ers, including the people that have been very satisfied with Jeff's other stones. In the end, I think no matter what stone she gets, she'll be a happy person.

And as long as everyone else's opinon agrees with your opinion, everything is OK, right? Otherwise, you seem have a problem with it

. I must say that you seem to have an unusually negative opinion of Jeff, considering you have apparently never worked with him and had never heard of him until recently. I, like the others, also don't appreciate you implying that those who buy from him are impulse shoppers incapable of making a rational decision without your 'help' and education. I can tell you that his clients on here love his work, and several of them have been at this far longer than 20 years, so I'm quite sure we have at least a few among us that might be able to 'hold their own' with your gem-buying prowess and knowledge. His stones have been regular features on this board for the last couple of years, and you won't find anyone, I'd wager, that hasn't had a positive experience with him. That's not to say that every gem purchased has been kept. There have been some folks that have returned his stones, and those stories are recounted here as well. I personally don't fit into the 'veteran' gem buyer category myself, but having talked with Jeff several times, I feel completely comfortable with him.

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but I think all here would appreciate it if you wouldn't berate them for theirs....

I don't want to turn Brendaman's thread into a sparring match. She asked for opinions on the stone, I tried to give an objective non-biased opinion about the color and what she might want when purchasing a colored stone of that magnitude and price. I have nothing personal at all against Jeff or any cutter/gem dealer. There are many novices on this board that look to PS'ers for advice on colored gems. What I find a bit disconcerting is when a cutter comes out with new gems and everyone has nothing but positive, glorious, shining thngs to say, and I'm sorry, I don't share the opinions of all the pictures I saw. I liked some of them, but not all of them.

I think it's important in any forum to bring up opinions, and I did see some stones that I didn't care for, so I gave my honest opinions on them in order to help people on the fence decide. I think people were more offended that I said anything bad at all about Jeff's stones, but I'm just trying to put a fresh perspective on the gems. If Brendaman just went ahead and puchased the stone because she instantaneously fell in love with it, I would keep my lips (or typing fingers) sealed, believe me.

I actually appreciate very honest opinions when I put a stone up for people to review, and I know not everyone wants to hear negativity, but I think opinions, whether they are negative, positive, or just neutral, help people to make wise puchasing decisions. I actually posted another stone of mine on another fourm (which shall remain nameless) because the people on that forum do actually give really honest and non-biased opinions. One person didn't care for it, but I really appreciated the honesty and I thanked him. It helps me in deciding if I should make a purchase or not when I'm on the fence about something. Even someone like me, who has been at this for over 20 years, really appreciates the advice.

 

[Harriet]

Tourmaline Lover,
I am afraid Brendaman''s thread has been derailed and become contentious. Her original question had to do with certification. She did not solicit our opinions about the stone. Can we please stop colouring her purchase?

 

[purrfectpear]

I think Tourmaline Lover has provided some frank and timely advice. Personally I would not spend over $3000 on any colored stone without an AGTA or GIA certification. What''s another $300 or so?

 

[movie zombie]

tell jeff you want a cert or appraisal and that you''ll pay for it. let him send it out if he''s willing because his insurance will cover the stone. if the cert says the stone is heated and your''re really not interested, then you''re only out your cert/appraisal $. otherwise, the steps outlined above gets the $ to jeff and the stone to you.

please don''t be offended but jeff is in business and while good customer service is always appreciated, so is understanding that this stone may have sold to someone else already if he hadn''t honored his word to you. keep it simple and concise. personally, i if were jeff, i''d give a two day i''ll hold it for you policy and then if the person hadn''t made up their mind, i''d be onto offering it to person #2. time is $ especially during this time of year.

i appreciate the position you''re in trying to make decisions but your problems should not create problems for him.

movie zombie

ps ditto what was said about a complete, clear and concise sales receipt!

 

[PrecisionGem]

You can get an AGL cert like this one for $25. It will identify the stone, and let you know if it''s been heated or not. These are the size of a credit card.

 

[Harriet]

Gene,
Is the AGL open to the public or is it trade only?
P.S. My best to J.

 

[Harriet]

Date: 12/13/2008 2:59:22 PM
Author: movie zombie
tell jeff you want a cert or appraisal and that you''ll pay for it. let him send it out if he''s willing because his insurance will cover the stone. if the cert says the stone is heated and your''re really not interested, then you''re only out your cert/appraisal $. otherwise, the steps outlined above gets the $ to jeff and the stone to you.

please don''t be offended but jeff is in business and while good customer service is always appreciated, so is understanding that this stone may have sold to someone else already if he hadn''t honored his word to you. keep it simple and concise. personally, i if were jeff, i''d give a two day i''ll hold it for you policy and then if the person hadn''t made up their mind, i''d be onto offering it to person #2. time is $ especially during this time of year.

i appreciate the position you''re in trying to make decisions but your problems should not create problems for him.

movie zombie

ps ditto what was said about a complete, clear and concise sales receipt!

Agreed. Jeff has given me the right of first refusal before and honoured it, so you''re in good hands, brendaman.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Hi Karen, I believe it''s open to the public. It''s on the 7th floor at 5th and 47th st. You just need to show some picture ID, get a finger print to get in the building. It''s best if you can drop off an pick up the stone yourself, as they will charge a lot for shipping the stone back to you. I think they use FEDEX and would in this case insure the stone for for $7000, if that''s what you told them you paid for it. So the shipping may be $50 or so.

I drop off and pick up stones all the time here when I''m in the city, for the $25 it''s nice to have on a more expensive stone. ALthough I don''t think these certs have ever helped me make a sale. I have a few stones on the site right now with certs, and they haven''t moved.

 

[Harriet]

Thanks, Gene.
P.S. You outed me!

 

[canuk-gal]

HI:

Who keeps the cert if you decide againt the stone....I''ve always been curious about this....

cheers--Sharon

 

[Imdanny]

For 7K I''d require him to get the cert. Sorry.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Date: 12/13/2008 6:02:14 PM
Author: canuk-gal
HI:


Who keeps the cert if you decide againt the stone....I''ve always been curious about this....


cheers--Sharon

Whenever someone wanted a cert, I always paid for it, then added the cost onto the stone. If the person in the end decided not to keep the stone, then of course I would keep the cert along with the stone.

 

[elmo]

Re: MZ''s suggestion to get the lab report before seeing it...if the cutter doesn''t want a report for himself, I think it''s much better to decide whether you want the stone first, not to first require that the cutter back up his statement that the stone is untreated. Let''s say he has it certed for you which with registered mail time can take 3-4 weeks to get back to him, then you see it (at least another week round trip) and decide you don''t want it. That''s over a month that the stone was off the market. Much better for you to see it first and to minimize the amount of time that the stone is out. This is Etiquette 101 for buying and selling gems

.

Gene, good to see a cutter weigh in on this. I''ve never used the AGL brief/fasttrack reports but FWIW according to the AGL website there are three levels of ''brief'' report with weight restrictions at each level for ruby sapphire and emerald. For a 3 carat stone you end up paying as much as you would for AGTA certification - the $25 version you mention can be used only up to 1.5 carats for sapphire; a 3 carat stone requires the ''premium'' version of the brief which they say costs $150. Their selling point is that you get a color and clarity grade on the premium brief which you don''t from AGTA and GIA. Some sellers would prefer you use AGTA or GIA, both have close ties to the industry and may be perceived as more industry friendly.

An appraiser who suggests that they can be equally effective as a major lab identifying treatments is telling you a lie. When the value of a stone can be significantly affected by treatment, a responsible appraiser will recommend and even help you obtain a lab report.

 

[movie zombie]

i agree again with elmo. my suggestion re getting the cert before seeing it is only because if the buyer is only interested in unheated stones, this would be the only way to eliminate it from consideration.

movie zombie

 

[brendaman]

Well, I just got off the phone with Jeff and have taken a pass on the stone. Jef was very perceptive by mentioning that this may not be the stone for me if I was looking for something like this link. With regard to the cert., I had already decided to view the stone first and get the cert. myself if I liked the stone. I suspected that the stone would be too light, but seeing the new pic below, provided by Jeff, under natural lighting, "taken at 2 pm under partially overcast sky on the back of my very cold hand".

I wanted to share with everyone what Jeff wrote me regarding his posting the sapphire before getting a cert.

"For a stone of such rarity and value (and where treatments can make such a huge difference in price), I ALWAYS encourage my clients to obtain certification of treatments if they are uncertain. In fact, for unheated sapphires of such value, I normally do this myself before listing the stone. You might''ve noticed a couple of sapphires on the last Gem Scoop that were certed. However, the reason it wasn''t done in this case was simply a matter of timing. I completed the stone about 1 day before my self-imposed deadline to get the mailing out, so there was no time for certification by a reputable lab. I did not, however, want to miss the opportunity to list this stone on the year-end offering, as it is such a special piece. I normally use AGL for certification through their "Fast Track" Gem Brief program, which is very reasonable in price and provides definitive information on any standard treatments (heating) or other treatments (diffusion, etc.). However, with shipping and their turnaround time, that process takes upwards of two-three weeks.

So, I went ahead and listed the stone without the cert, since most of my returning clients know my policy on treatments and are more comfortable with such a purchase. With this being your first, however, I can certainly understand your concern. Here is my stance on treatments with regard to return policy: if you receive a stone from me, have it certified, and find that it is not of the state I promised (in this case - unheated/untreated in any way), then you are entitled to a full refund, regardless of how far past the 7 day inspection period you are. Keep in mind that this is ONLY applies to situations where the stone is not as promised. The standard 7 days still applies to the purchase from a general asthetics standpoint, etc., and the sale is considered final after that (barring the above situation)."

Quite honestly, I was really tempted to make this be the stone for me, simply because I love Jeff''s cuts. But in the end, sight unseen, I can tell that this beautiful sapphire was too light in color for me. I''m quite comfortable with my decision all thanks to Jeff! I know there was such a chatter on this subject, and I hope I didn''t feed fuel into the fire. I very much appreciate everyone''s comments and opinions and hope ya''ll will keep ''em coming as my search for my sapphire e-ring continues.

 

[LostSapphire]

Date: 12/14/2008 2:33:32 PM
Author: brendaman

Well, I just got off the phone with Jeff and have taken a pass on the stone. Jef was very perceptive by mentioning that this may not be the stone for me if I was looking for something like this link.

Hey Brendaman!

I think that's my BLUEBERRY! Thank you for the call out. Good luck in your continued quest for 'the one'. I found Jeff to be extremely perceptive and empathetic to our sense of colour.

Before we found mine, there were 2 that seemed "oh so close but just not quite right". I am so glad I waited to get the right colour.

Have fun along the way to your perfect 'one'.

LS

 

[Linda W]

Date: 12/14/2008 2:49:29 PM
Author: LostSapphire

Date: 12/14/2008 2:33:32 PM

Author: brendaman

Well, I just got off the phone with Jeff and have taken a pass on the stone. Jef was very perceptive by mentioning that this may not be the stone for me if I was looking for something like this link.

Hey Brendaman!


I think that''s the BLUEBERRY!



Thank you for the call out. Good luck in your continued quest for ''the one''. I found Jeff to be extremely perceptive and empathetic to our sense of colour.


Before we found mine, there were 2 that seemed ''oh so close but just not quite right''. I am so glad I waited to get the right colour.


Have fun along the way to your perfect ''one''.


LS

LS, Yes, that is your stone

. I knew it was, as soon as I saw it.

 

[LostSapphire]

Date: 12/14/2008 2:51:08 PM
Author: Linda W

LS, Yes, that is your stone

. I knew it was, as soon as I saw it.

Hi Linda

LS