Unheated Sapphire from Jeff White - Should I get a Cert?

[Linda W]

Hi LS sweetheart, I think of you every single day!!!!!!!!!!! I bet your gorgeous blueberry is a great comfort to you

 

[Linda W]

Date: 12/14/2008 2:33:32 PM
Author: brendaman
Well, I just got off the phone with Jeff and have taken a pass on the stone. Jef was very perceptive by mentioning that this may not be the stone for me if I was looking for something like this link. With regard to the cert., I had already decided to view the stone first and get the cert. myself if I liked the stone. I suspected that the stone would be too light, but seeing the new pic below, provided by Jeff, under natural lighting, ''taken at 2 pm under partially overcast sky on the back of my very cold hand''.


I wanted to share with everyone what Jeff wrote me regarding his posting the sapphire before getting a cert.


''For a stone of such rarity and value (and where treatments can make such a huge difference in price), I ALWAYS encourage my clients to obtain certification of treatments if they are uncertain. In fact, for unheated sapphires of such value, I normally do this myself before listing the stone. You might''ve noticed a couple of sapphires on the last Gem Scoop that were certed. However, the reason it wasn''t done in this case was simply a matter of timing. I completed the stone about 1 day before my self-imposed deadline to get the mailing out, so there was no time for certification by a reputable lab. I did not, however, want to miss the opportunity to list this stone on the year-end offering, as it is such a special piece. I normally use AGL for certification through their ''Fast Track'' Gem Brief program, which is very reasonable in price and provides definitive information on any standard treatments (heating) or other treatments (diffusion, etc.). However, with shipping and their turnaround time, that process takes upwards of two-three weeks.


So, I went ahead and listed the stone without the cert, since most of my returning clients know my policy on treatments and are more comfortable with such a purchase. With this being your first, however, I can certainly understand your concern. Here is my stance on treatments with regard to return policy: if you receive a stone from me, have it certified, and find that it is not of the state I promised (in this case - unheated/untreated in any way), then you are entitled to a full refund, regardless of how far past the 7 day inspection period you are. Keep in mind that this is ONLY applies to situations where the stone is not as promised. The standard 7 days still applies to the purchase from a general asthetics standpoint, etc., and the sale is considered final after that (barring the above situation).''


Quite honestly, I was really tempted to make this be the stone for me, simply because I love Jeff''s cuts. But in the end, sight unseen, I can tell that this beautiful sapphire was too light in color for me. I''m quite comfortable with my decision all thanks to Jeff! I know there was such a chatter on this subject, and I hope I didn''t feed fuel into the fire. I very much appreciate everyone''s comments and opinions and hope ya''ll will keep ''em coming as my search for my sapphire e-ring continues.

Cornflower blue sapphires are lighter than Royal Blue Sapphires. You most likely want what Lost Sapphire has.

 

[LostSapphire]

Date: 12/14/2008 2:33:32 PM
Author: brendaman

Quite honestly, I was really tempted to make this be the stone for me, simply because I love Jeff''s cuts. But in the end, sight unseen, I can tell that this beautiful sapphire was too light in color for me. I''m quite comfortable with my decision all thanks to Jeff! I know there was such a chatter on this subject, and I hope I didn''t feed fuel into the fire. I very much appreciate everyone''s comments and opinions and hope ya''ll will keep ''em coming as my search for my sapphire e-ring continues.

Brendaman:

I don''t know if this might help, but when we were looking and looking, I e-mailed this link to Jeff: http://crossjewelers.com/sapphire/HowToBuyAsapphire.htm

Then, I told him roughly where on the spectrum I wanted my stone to fall...it helped him narrow things down a bit.

LS

 

[Linda W]

Wow LS, that is a GREAT CHART!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 12/13/2008 8:21:51 AM
Author: elmo
You guys are making this difficult. Standard procedure is to 1) only buy something that has a no-questions asked return period so you can make sure you like it in person and get to see in various lighting; then 2) once you''ve determined you''d like to purchase it, make the sale contingent upon a satisfactory result from a lab you both agree on. Pay for the stone, take a look, return if it''s not what you want, else mail to the lab if you like it. For #2 you''ve committed to buy unless there''s an undisclosed treatment; also make sure the seller agrees to this up front.


I like AGL myself (a full report on a 3 carat sapphire without origin is closer to $250 than what was mentioned) but many sellers would prefer AGTA or GIA; for this I''d probably get an AGTA report which is about $175 plus shipping; don''t worry about origin for this which costs more.


For something that can be treated where the treatment has significant impact on value, I disagree with folks who say to get an appraisal only or to simply trust the seller with no report. If the seller has obtained a report from a lab you trust, then yes, that is sufficient. (Although there''s nothing wrong with a second lab opinion, which you probably want anyway for something more expensive.)


By all means ask the seller if they''ll back up the untreated claim with a lab report. If they won''t (reasonable for something not so expensive), figure the cost of the report as part of the purchase price. The best sellers will refund the report cost if the untreated claim turns out to be incorrect. But worst case you''re out $200 and you can write about it here.


Good luck.

That''s great advice, Elmo.

When I list a gem as untreated I have very good reasons to say so. I either mined it myself or can backtrack it to a reliable and trusted supplier (I buy stones rough and cut from sources all over the world: Sri Lanka, India, Africa, Brazil, Russia, Australia, etc.) The cost of pre-certifying every stone is far too great and adds unnecessarily to selling prices. In certain cases I offer AGL Fast Track certs with selected gems to verify absence of heating. In situations where stones are offered as "unheated" without certs I make this guarantee:

If the buyer buys the stone and obtains a cert (at their own expense) from a recognized third party lab (GIA, AGL, AGTA, SSEF, AIGS) that says the stone has been heated or otherwise treated I will refund all costs of the stone and certificate when the cert is submitted to me. I set no particular time limit on that guarantee but would prefer it to be done within 6 months of the purchase.

It should be mentioned that not all certificates provide the same information. Only a couple of labs offer certification on origin and then on just a few types of stones. The information provided on certificates from various labs can differ a lot. Buyers should do a little homework on what gem characteristics they are concerned about and select a lab accordingly.

Apologies to anyone who''s been frustrated trying to order from my website recently. The US Postal Service''s website which I link to to calculate postage has been down for about a week and I haven''t yet been able to create an on-line work-around.

Richard M.

 

[LostSapphire]

Hi again Brendaman

It''s raining and I''m bored so thought I''d scan the cert that I got with my stone from Jeff. As DiamondSeeker was kind enough to point out, my Blueberry is a recut of a stone imported from SriLanka, which came to Jeff with the attached cert.

So this is the cert that I got with it. Not a lot of information on it, really, but it''s kind of cool to have. Of course, now that the stone has been recut by Jeff, the specs have changed but he still sent it along....

LS

 

[T L]

Date: 12/14/2008 3:02:16 PM
Author: LostSapphire

Date: 12/14/2008 2:33:32 PM
Author: brendaman

Quite honestly, I was really tempted to make this be the stone for me, simply because I love Jeff''s cuts. But in the end, sight unseen, I can tell that this beautiful sapphire was too light in color for me. I''m quite comfortable with my decision all thanks to Jeff! I know there was such a chatter on this subject, and I hope I didn''t feed fuel into the fire. I very much appreciate everyone''s comments and opinions and hope ya''ll will keep ''em coming as my search for my sapphire e-ring continues.

Brendaman:

I don''t know if this might help, but when we were looking and looking, I e-mailed this link to Jeff: http://crossjewelers.com/sapphire/HowToBuyAsapphire.htm

Then, I told him roughly where on the spectrum I wanted my stone to fall...it helped him narrow things down a bit.

LS

I think sapphire grading is a bit more complex than this graph details because of modifiers, but it is an informative chart from a high level perspective. It helps you to narrow down the color a bit across this spectrum. Thanks for posting that.

 

[LostSapphire]

Date: 12/14/2008 7:15:24 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

I think sapphire grading is a bit more complex than this graph details because of modifiers, but it is an informative chart from a high level perspective. It helps you to narrow down the color a bit across this spectrum. Thanks for posting that.

Of course. But one has to start somewhere. Trying to describe a *colour* is often difficult. The spectrum was simply a way to narrow things down so that Jeff didn''t spend weeks looking at stones that I would not consider.

LS

 

[Linda W]

Date: 12/14/2008 8:16:58 PM
Author: LostSapphire

Date: 12/14/2008 7:15:24 PM

Author: tourmaline_lover


I think sapphire grading is a bit more complex than this graph details because of modifiers, but it is an informative chart from a high level perspective. It helps you to narrow down the color a bit across this spectrum. Thanks for posting that.

Of course. But one has to start somewhere. Trying to describe a *colour* is often difficult. The spectrum was simply a way to narrow things down so that Jeff didn''t spend weeks looking at stones that I would not consider.


LS

That is right LS, I agree with you 100%!!! Jeff certainly picked out a beauty too. I drool every time your Blueberry avatar pops up. Jeff certainly knows his business doesn''t he???

 

[LostSapphire]

Date: 12/14/2008 8:23:41 PM
Author: Linda W

Date: 12/14/2008 8:16:58 PM
Author: LostSapphire

Date: 12/14/2008 7:15:24 PM

Author: tourmaline_lover
I think sapphire grading is a bit more complex than this graph details because of modifiers, but it is an informative chart from a high level perspective. It helps you to narrow down the color a bit across this spectrum. Thanks for posting that.

Of course. But one has to start somewhere. Trying to describe a *colour* is often difficult. The spectrum was simply a way to narrow things down so that Jeff didn't spend weeks looking at stones that I would not consider.
LS

That is right LS, I agree with you 100%!!! Jeff certainly picked out a beauty too. I drool every time your Blueberry avatar pops up. Jeff certainly knows his business doesn't he???

There are more shades of blue than any other colour on the universe. That is why it is so hard to match, whether it be in paint colours, clothing, or sapphires.

I found it really difficult to describe what I wanted, only to have it interpreted in a different manner (most of what JW found for me at first were too light).

Once I gave him the spectrum and told him "no lighter than Camelot Blue and no darker than Royal Blue" we made great progress.

I grew to trust his eye implicitly in the process. We traded photos back and forth for a while, so I felt comfortable with his knowledge of what I wanted. Once he suggested the Blueberry, and sent me pics of it indoors and out, I purchased it sight unseen. It was shipped directly to Whiteflash for setting. No regrets.

LS

*apologies for the threadjack brendaman

 

[Linda W]

I bet it is even more beautiful in person too. I know when I receive my pad, I''ll probably sit and stare at it for days HA!!!!!!!!!!

 

[LostSapphire]

Date: 12/14/2008 8:34:48 PM
Author: Linda W
I bet it is even more beautiful in person too. I know when I receive my pad, I''ll probably sit and stare at it for days HA!!!!!!!!!!

soon?

 

[Linda W]

Hopefully sometime next week. I promise to post pictures too!!!

 

[LostSapphire]

Date: 12/14/2008 8:38:11 PM
Author: Linda W
Hopefully sometime next week. I promise to post pictures too!!!

*sorry again for the threadjack brendaman*

 

[brendaman]

No worries, LS! BTW, I've already used that sapphire color chart and sent it to a local jeweler (Shah & Shah Appraisers) to source a stone for me and told them I wanted it to be between closer to Camelot and no darker than Royal Blue. Then I read your instructions to JW for your Blueberry and laughed. Great minds think alike? All the best!

 

[Sagebrush]

All,

Well since you asked my opinion about certificates all I can do is repeat my policy for purchases made from our website. If the stone cost over $2,000.00 and I represent it as unenhanced, I will get be pleased to provide a grading report, at our cost, from an independent lab at the client''s option.

Some gemstones, particularly garnets do not really require certificates. Movie Zombie mentions not asking for a certificate for a spessartite. I don''t think it is necessary as there are no known treatments. If a stone is heat treated and so stated, a certificate is sometimes necessary, particularly for blue and yellow-orange sapphire.

If a sapphire has been diffused it must be treated with high temperature heat and there is a real distinction in price between a heated stone and a diffused stone and it is difficult to tell without lab analysis.

Yes, there are other treatments such as glass filling but those can be detected by standard gemological tests. Heat treatment, by contrast, particularly low-temperature is difficult for even an expert to be sure of without sophisticated testing using instruments most dealers don''t have.

Expensive rubies and sapphires, that are significantly more expensive if they are unenhanced should be accompanied by lab reports. I have a few smaller unenhanced sapphires on my site that have not be lab certified, but will be glad to do it for the purchaser if requested.