What do you think about these sapphires?

[valeria101]

It is a bit unfortunate to see that kind of romance dissapear into two pictures, seven numbers and a price.

You say elsewhere: "leave D Flawless for the gems of the common man"... so it perhaps follows by loose association that paper grades are better left for virtual appreciation and sapphire for close contact. This one, I hope to understand.

 

[b_b]

Well I received the stone today and must say that it is everything I had hoped for! Yes, the setting is ugly (but actually not as bad as in the closeup photo), but it will be gone and replaced with a nice platinum setting just as soon as I get it appraised and sent back to have it removed from the setting!

Oh I wish I had my camera with me as it is capable of a much better macro shot than the photo CheryPicked has up on their website.

 

[windowshopper]

so you got the one with the "ugly unisex setting"--is the stone as glowing as i thought?

 

[widget]

b_b....

Are you still going to be comparing the CherryPicked stone to ones in the B&M today? I'd be curious to hear you thoughts. And I hope you get your camera so we can see pics!

I'm a TOTAL gem freak, too. I really appreciate Ruby Dick's elequantly told tale about the Kashmirs. Can diamonds evoke that kind of passion?

Damgerous to say here, I suppose....but I think God invented diamonds because He knew that His colored gems would need side stones!

Keep us posted...

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[strmrdr]

Date: 11/20/2004 11

7:32 AM
Author: widget
but I think God invented diamonds because He knew that His colored gems would need side stones!



widget

Amen!!

 

[valeria101]

Date: 11/20/2004 117:32 AM
Author: widget

Damgerous to say here, I suppose....but I think God invented diamonds because He knew that His colored gems would need side stones!

No they don't

 

[b_b]

Date: 11/20/2004 11

7:32 AM
Author: widget
b_b....


Are you still going to be comparing the CherryPicked stone to ones in the B&M today? I''d be curious to hear you thoughts. And I hope you get your camera so we can see pics!


I''m a TOTAL gem freak, too. I really appreciate Ruby Dick''s elequantly told tale about the Kashmirs. Can diamonds evoke that kind of passion?


Damgerous to say here, I suppose....but I think God invented diamonds because He knew that His colored gems would need side stones!


Keep us posted...


widget

Yes, I went on Saturday and compared the stones that the local jeweler found for me. One of them was quite nice, though it was heated and had no certification. The cut was very nice and the cost was less than half as much. It looks like I will be going with the stone from CherryPicked but I may use this jeweler for the setting as he had something that was nearly identical to what I was looking for.

 

[bar01]

Congrats on choosing that fantastic sounding unheated Burma (very rare) – Please keep us up to date on the progress– evaluation/appraisal information , setting, and final photos!

 

[b_b]

Date: 11/22/2004 11:19:30 AM
Author: bar01
Congrats on choosing that fantastic sounding unheated Burma (very rare) – Please keep us up to date on the progress– evaluation/appraisal information , setting, and final photos!

Thanks! I took it in to the appraiser you recommended and he seemed very knowledgeable. He was pretty impressed with the stone and mentioned that he figured these unheated Burma sapphires were going to be getting scarce in the next few years. He also took some photos of it with his microscope to add to the library he keeps (and potentially his publications!) and showed me on the computer the tiny inclusions that prove that this stone is unheated. Now, I am pretty new to the gem world, is "The Guide" a respected publication?

Anyway, pricing is in line with what Cherry Picked is asking and Mr. Drucker assured me that the shape of the stone is suitable for the bezel setting that I want to use.

 

[valeria101]

"The Guide" - is there an article in preparation for it that will cite your gem ?

 

[bar01]

I am not in the industry - but from my research on the web and with others - Richard Drucker is very well known in the appraisal industry as is his "Guide". He is speaking at the AGTA Trade Show in Feb 2005 on this issue.


THE GUIDE


Did Drucker do a full GIA style color evaluation for you ? - or just a quick pre-sale verification?

 

[b_b]

Date: 11/23/2004 5:35:47 PM
Author: valeria101
''The Guide'' - is there an article in preparation for it that will cite your gem ?

Not that I know of.

 

[b_b]

Date: 11/23/2004 6

7:43 PM
Author: bar01
I am not in the industry - but from my research on the web and with others - Richard Drucker is very well known in the appraisal industry as is his ''Guide''. He is speaking at the AGTA Trade Show in Feb 2005 on this issue.



THE GUIDE



Did Drucker do a full GIA style color evaluation for you ? - or just a quick pre-sale verification?

It was just a "quick" pre-sale verification... If you consider an hour quick. But it was all verbal, just making sure that the stone was indeed what is printed on the certificate and then he and his associate coming to an agreement on what a good price would be. We also talked for a little bit about the setting I have planned and the current state of sapphires in Burma. All in all it was an enjoyable experience.

 

[widget]

b_b...

I just noticed that your sapphire is marked "sold" at CherryPicked....I assume that''s you, and CONGRATULATIONS!

I do hope you keep us posted on your progress in having it mounted...and of course, final pictures!

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[rubydick]

Date: 11/17/2004 6:39:32 PM
Author: valeria101
Freakin' bagrgain basement... or what! (look at how each score ranks the two sapphires).

I took a look at the cert on the 1.276 ct. "Kashmir" sapphire. It is what I call a "hedge" cert.

Here's a bit of gemological trivia: There are at least two different types of origin certs issued by that lab. Both have virtually the same comment. However on one type, the origin is listed next to the stone identification ('Natural Sapphire, Kashmir'), while on the "hedge" cert ('Natural Sapphire'), the origin is mentioned only in the comment. Both types of certs are linked below, along with their comments:

"Hedge"-type Cert
"It is the opinion of the Laboratory, based on the weight of evidence, that the origin of this material would be classified as Kashmir."

Regular Cert
"Based on available gemological information, it is the opinion of the Laboratory that the origin of this material would be classified as Kashmir."

Note the comments are virtually identical.

I found out about this the hard way. Several years ago I sold a "Kashmir" sapphire to a client with one of these certs. Double-checked the origin by submitting it to the AGTA lab. Came back Ceylon. We called the first lab, and were told that if the origin was not printed next to the identification, the cert had a "lower confidence level." We asked where the explanation on "confidence levels" was printed on the cert and were told that it was not there anywhere. Sweet, eh?

Based on my own experience, I would not touch a stone with one of those "hedge" certs. That is just my own personal opinion, but like Pete Townsend, I won't get fooled again.

 

[widget]

Richard:

I find this fascinating, and frankly sort of shocking. I had always thought that AGL was one of the best thought of labs...you''d think they''d mention somewhere the difference in "confidence levels" when grading stones.

Aren''t ALL origin reports basically highly educated guesses? It seems to me you''d have to witness the stone coming out of the ground before you could guarantee its country of orgin...

And finally, do different labs...even the most highly regarded ones, have different reputations among gem dealers as being "Kashmir friendly", or "Burma friendly", or Ceylon friendly?? ...if you know what I mean...

Thanks!
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[rubydick]

Widget,

You are correct. Origin reports are highly-educated guesses. And yes, you are right to be shocked, just as I was when I learned this.

I won''t comment on your other remarks, but you might find the answer by re-reading my original post.

 

[widget]

Well, now I'm into studying AGL lab reports!

I notice that some of their "regular" origin reports refer to "Natural Sapphire, Burma*" , while others say: "Natural Sapphire, Classic Burma", with a TM for trademark next to it....

What's THIS all about????

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[rubydick]

Classic Burma Sapphire? That''s a new one. While ruby is found in several different locales in Burma, with Mogok being the "classic" locality, there is really only one source for fine blue sapphires in Burma (the Mogok region). So basically it''s all "classic." That begs the question of the difference between Standard and Classic. I''m stumped. Anybody else have an explanation?

 

[mogok]

Hello,
I''m just back from a new field trip in Pailin Cambodia and will leave again tonigh to visit an other sapphire mining deposit in Laos this time...
I have to apologise that I dont have too much time these days to write on forums but I wanted to put one word on this topic as it it what I''m currently working in: Origin determination for rubies and sapphires.
Origin determination is asked by the public and last year I''ve advised AIGS lab to stop producing reports with origin as I wanted to collect more data, repair some instruments and work with AIGS staff gemologists on this topic. Currently after many field trips to Mogok, Namya, Pailin, Kanchanabury, Pailin we will probably come back in few months with reports inlcuding our opinion on ruby and sapphire origin. This will be the result of a lot of work and we know that as the others labs we will probably do some mistakes as the situation now regarding to rubies and sapphires is much more complicated than few years ago with the new sources and the fact that most stones hare systematically heated.

The reason we have stopped is that origin determination is as you said an "educated guess" it needs a lot of experience and also some advanced instruments in order to minimise the mistake possibilities that become much more possible compared to the time were rubies were mostly either Thai or Burmese and sapphires Sri Lankan, Kashmir, Thai-Cambodian or Burmese.
The problem is that some stones from different new origin share the same geological formation and as a result inclusions with the stone from traditional origins. As these new mines are producing many stones and the traditional deposits less, labs providing origin determination face many challenges: Inlcusions, chemical fingerprints, optic properties can overlap as it is the case with sapphire from Madagascar that can be mistaken either with Burmese, Kashmir or Sri Lankan gems. Sometimes we can also find in the same country (madagascar is a good example) several deposits with very different geological origin.

Labs face the challenge to learn as much as they can these deposits, to collect scientific samples and to get the instruments (and the people that can use these instruments) that will be able to differentiate between the different types. It is not all the time easy for commercial labs with limitated budgets situated far from the mining deposits.

Most labs will have different approach towards origin determination: Some major labs send their gemologists to field trips as part of their research duties, others will collect from "trusted dealers". Most are doing both. The problem is that in some cases the dealer furnishing the specimens is also the customer and this customer can find this way to influence in its favor the origin determination of a given lab. Whatever in many cases it is difficult to collect scientific specimens rigorously from the mine as labs need gem quality specimens. I know what I speak about as this is the thing I''m trying to do on my field trips... To limitate mistakes labs try to get specimens from different dealers in order to limitate the mistakes and manipulations.

Now we arrive to a point were a lab will face many problems as they may have the correct instruments but not the samples or not the correct gemmologists to master them for origin determination of a given gem. As whatever origin determination is an "educated guess" an opinion, some lab try to please their customers giving their opinion knowing that it might be wrong.

Currently to avoid these problems we are working at AIGS into developping an "type origin" opinion that we will try over the time to improve with new field trips, specimens, instruments and collaboration programs with other laboratories. Richard Hugues will probaly not desagree with me when I advance that Mogok or Umba valley mining fields are already very challenging deposits presenting stones with very different properties. Other deposits like Kashmir present much more even gemstones types. Basically the problem is that dealers are only interested to get reports with traditional origin like Burma, Kashmir and Sri Lanka for rubies and sapphire and when a lab issue a report with Vietnam, Madagascar, Nigeria, Nepal... Well it sell much less!
But labs have to try to be as fair and fair as they can (anyway this is my personal opinion...) even if they know that they cant be perfect.

On the last step we have to understand that origin is not related with quality. It is related with fame and traditions. As many beautiful gems were produced from traditional sources these sources are high in demand. But as nowadays the production in these well known sources is scarce and less known new sources are more productive many challenges are facing labs issuing origin reports.
Customers reading an origin lab report should see how these labs are dealing with this challenge. Are they doing research? or they are just guessing? Whatever finally all the labs can do mistakes or origin reports but some are doing probably much more than others.

To finish with that I have to day that I''m not very familiar at all with AGL reports or AGL laboratory, so well I cannot speak about them. But I hope that my intervention has helped you to understand better the problem dealing with origin at least for rubies and sapphires.

All the best,

 

[widget]

Thanks, Mogok!! You''re the best!

This is so interesting! It seems to me that this ever growing complexity of determining the origin might eventually lead to a lessening of importance of origin in putting a value on a gemstone.

And I think this is a good thing. After all, in the end, shouldn''t a stone be judged and valued on its own merits, and not on where it came from?

In the mean time, if I had a stone with conflicting origin reports from two reputable labs....I''d just throw away the less attractive report. Who''s to say which lab is right? Would this be unethical if I were a dealer? (Maybe it''s a good thing that I''m NOT a dealer!

)

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[rubydick]

That's what many dealers do. They toss the less-than-favorable report.

Is it ethical? Probably not. IMO, it doesn't really rank alongside invading a country based on fabricated evidence, but hey, just count me as a card-carrying member of the immoral minority. I voted for the other guy.

 

[bar01]

Mogok,

I am just a lowly consumer - but I have heard this before from you that there is no correlation between Origin and Quality. Is that entirely - 100% true?

Haven't Hughes - and Wise - and Newman in their fine books - attributed (in a general manner) qualities and characteristics to different sources?
Examples.... "Burma Sapphires have a deeper richer color..." "Kashmir is cornflower velvety" "Thai Rubies have more black extinction". Now these are talking about the "best examples" from these sources - so you can still get bad ones from them.

See these links

http://ruby-sapphire.com/r-s-bk-quality2.htm

http://secretsofthegemtrade.com/chapter_22_o1.htm

As I understand it, the new sources from Africa are blurring these distinctions – but is it fair to completely dismiss different origins as having different (and perhaps more desirable - to certain people) qualities? Or is it all up in the air these days as you say with with so many new sources and different types of stones coming out of the same mines?

However, I have learned that it does really come down to the color and characteristics - and not origin - in the value.

 

[avlatin]

I JUST READ YOUR POST BY ACCIDENT OR MAYBE IT''S FATE. I INITIALLY WANTED RUBY OR SAPPHIRE FOR MY GF''s ENGAGEMENT RING UNTIL I GOT FRUSTRATED IN TRYING TO LOCATE A HIGH QUALITY PIECE. NOW CONSIDERING AN ASSCHER CUT, BUT WOULD STILL PREFER A RUBY. WOULD YOU PLEASE DIRECT ME AS TO WHERE TO GO. I TRIED THE LINKS OF CHERRYPICK, BUT TO NO AVAIL.

OR ANYBODY ELSE OUT THERE THAT COULD HELP.

THANKS!!!

 

[widget]

Hi, Avlatin!

I hope you've visited Palagems or ruby-sapphire.com....tons of information, buying guides, etc.

If I were looking for an important colored stone for an engagement ring, I'd probably go to a trusted B&M, where they could call in several stones for comparison and choice.

Having said that, I've found ALL my gemstones on line!

Since CherryPicked (my personal favorite) doesn't work for you, you might check out:

http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com (for sapphires, obviously)
http://www.preciousgemstones.com
http://www.twindiamonds.com (Israel)

I'm sure any of them would love to help you find the "perfect" gemstone!

Good luck.

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[rubydick]

Date: 12/9/2004 4:19

9 PM
Author: bar01
I am just a lowly consumer - but I have heard this before from you that there is no correlation between Origin and Quality. Is that entirely - 100% true?

Haven''t Hughes - and Wise - and Newman in their fine books - attributed (in a general manner) qualities and characteristics to different sources?

Examples.... ''Burma Sapphires have a deeper richer color...'' ''Kashmir is cornflower velvety'' ''Thai Rubies have more black extinction''. Now these are talking about the ''best examples'' from these sources - so you can still get bad ones from them.

See these links

http://ruby-sapphire.com/r-s-bk-quality2.htm

http://secretsofthegemtrade.com/chapter_22_o1.htm

As I understand it, the new sources from Africa are blurring these distinctions – but is it fair to completely dismiss different origins as having different (and perhaps more desirable - to certain people) qualities? Or is it all up in the air these days as you say with with so many new sources and different types of stones coming out of the same mines?

However, I have learned that it does really come down to the color and characteristics - and not origin - in the value.

It is possible to generalize when speaking about general populations. It is impossible to generalize when speaking about individuals. Since the public generally buys stones individually, and since the vast majority of production from even the premier sources is of poor quality, origin at the individual level is a poor peg to hang your hat on.

Let me put it this way. If you want to enjoy a bottle of wine, but you can''t taste the difference between a fine vintage and vinegar, then the label on the bottle is meaningless. Origin in gems is just like that.

Now I know little of fine wine, but I do know my gems. And while I''ll freely admit that many of the best blues I''ve seen have come from Kashmir, I''ve also seen even more dogs from that high Himalayan locale.

At the risk of sounding like a dittohead, the most important tool in buying gems is not the cert, but your own two eyes. And if you don''t possess the requisite experience, put your trust in someone who does. Trust is a great thing, it''s liberating. Find a good jeweler and work with them. They can bring in a variety of stones from a variety of sources and you can pick the one that suits you best.

And when you''ve made your selection, have the piece certed by a first-class lab (AGTA, GIA) and then appraised by a good appraiser, because while trust is a great thing, you don''t want to get carried away.

 

[Robert Genis]

Date: 12/8/2004 8:58:41 PM
Author: Richard Hughes
Classic Burma Sapphire? That''s a new one. While ruby is found in several different locales in Burma, with Mogok being the ''classic'' locality, there is really only one source for fine blue sapphires in Burma (the Mogok region). So basically it''s all ''classic.'' That begs the question of the difference between Standard and Classic. I''m stumped. Anybody else have an explanation?

Say Richard:
A client asked me to respond to this question regarding the difference at AGL between Burma sapphire and Classic Burma sapphire.  There is also a difference between a Burma and a Classic Burma ruby.  Without being too technical, let me try to explain my understanding of the differences.  The AGL is looking for certain optical, physical, chemical and inclusion characteristics in order to give a Classic designation.  If the lab sees these things  the stone will be given the Classic Burma designation.  A stone can still be from Burma and not have all of these signposts and it receives a straight Burma designation.  You must remember, as much as we would like a magic black box to give us country of origin information, only approximately 80% of all gemstones submitted to the AGL receive a positive identification comment - such as based upon available gemological information or aka BAG comment.  The balance are given weight of evidence or are not given ANY designation.
Burma sapphire
For example, the lab is looking for intersecting rutile at a certain degree or angle.  If  they see this, along with other characteristics, the stone is given a Classic designation.  However, you can also get a Burma sapphire without intersecting rutile, for example, but with rutile and it will receive an unheated Burma designation.  Does it really matter to collectors?  Not really because, as you said, Mogok is the prime locality for sapphire.
Burma Ruby
Here it is more critical.  What most collectors want is Classic Burma.  If it doesn''t state Classic Mogok,  the stone does not have the certain optical, physical, chemical and inclusion characteristics or the material might be from  Naniazeik, Nanyarseik, Nanyazeik or Naniazeit, Nayar or Nanyar. Pick a name!  Therefore, the trade deems a Classic Burma more valuable than a straight Burma.  I have noticed the electric red pinks tend to get this more then the purer reds.  Of course, most people use this color to describe the color from Nayar or Nanyar.
Anyway, I hope this sheds some light on the differences between the designations.

 

[Sagebrush]

More confusion with terminology:

Voltaire said something like "If you would debate with me kindly define your terms."

I know that AGL uses the term "classic burma" as described. I believe C. R. Beesley, AGL''s president has actually attempted to trademark the term which would effectively prohibit anyone else from using it. I agree with Dick Hughes. The language gemologists use is loose torturous enough without adding redundancy.

 

[rubydick]

Date: 12/9/2004 6:53:24 PM
Author: Robert Genis wrote:

...or the material might be from  Naniazeik, Nanyarseik, Nanyazeik or Naniazeit, Nayar or Nanyar. Pick a name!

Bob, You forgot one: Namya.

If rutile could run in just a single direction in sapphire, we could get a cat's eye, which we don't. With a microscope, I've always seen rutile running in three directions. If it's exsolved rutile it grows in three directions (the crystals are actually little twins). There may be more in one direction than another, but there's always three total.

When dealers talk about classic Burma, they are talking about a look, an overall appearance, not the number of directions of rutile in the stone or any sort of chemical signature. A good many dealers probably don't even know what rutile is and they certainly have no means of optical or chemical analysis.

My understanding of the term "classic", at least in the classical sense (sorry, I couldn't resist), is that it is something of the highest rank or refinement. But since dealers have always determined quality with their eyes, for a gemologist to arbitrarily make this determination by another means, particularly one that does not relate to what the eye sees is, in my opinion, not just potentially classless, but quite probably socialist  (again, I couldn't resist).

In the past, I have often complained about "labspeak," that indecipherable form of literary linguini found on so many gemological reports. Indeed, Ray Zajicek and I once wrote an article about it:

Dogfights: Dealers vs. Gemologists

So if I'm still confused, please don't take it personally, it's not your fault. You are not issuing the certs and so can't be responsible for the lack of explanation on the reports. Nor should you be.

Finally, let me just say that I love your treehouse

 

[rubydick]

Date: 12/8/2004 12:59:13 PM
Author: Richard Hughes

I took a look at the cert on the 1.276 ct. ''Kashmir'' sapphire. It is what I call a ''hedge'' cert....

Based on my own experience, I would not touch a stone with one of those ''hedge'' certs. That is just my own personal opinion, but like Pete Townsend, I won''t get fooled again.

I should clarify my previous remarks. I should have said I wouldn''t touch a stone with a "hedge" cert unless the origin was verified by another major lab. The reason is quite simple. For "preferred" origins (they really are simply ''preferred'' prejudices) such as Kashmir, a huge premium is paid by the buyer. Thus if you care how you spend your money, you should make doubly sure that the origin call by the lab is rock solid.

Hope that explains things better.