What do you think of this Spess?

[portia]

I've been oogling this spessartite for a few days now, but since I'm a beginner gemstone collector I thought I'd post it so I could hear from the experts. From what I've read it sounds like Tan's videos are fairly accurate in capturing his stones' qualities. What do you think of this one? It's rather expensive, but to get a fine quality spess I realize I'm going to have to spend some $$$. I also checked ajsgems, but they were even more expensive and I'm not sure if their photos are as accurate as Tan's. Any advice you can give would be greatly appreciated!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330371084519&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

 

[Arcadian]

I will only tell you what I can see from my screen; I see some brown in that stone and I also see that rather large window. I would ask Tan if there's any brown in the stone. Please don't feel hurt by me saying this, but at that price range, the window is really off putting. Spess isn't so rare that you can't find a stone in that price range without a big window, trust me.

As far as AJS, let them know what your interested in by sending a message on their site. The Queens birthday is over so I do believe they're in the office on Monday. I've looked at some of their spess in that price range and find that they look better than the one you showed on Tans page.

You may also want to check swalagemtraders.com. They have spess there as well. I would let Eric know what color and size you're looking for if you don't see it on their website.

My experiences with all three have been stellar so no worries there. Just let them know what you're looking for.


Otherwise, you may want to go the custom route and see if any of the custom cutters have material available.




-A

 

[chictomato]

Hi Portia! I see quite a bit of brown and a big window. I think you can do better with that price. JMHO

 

[T L]

I will only tell you what I can see from my screen; I see some brown in that stone and I also see that rather large window. I would ask Tan if there's any brown in the stone.
-A

I agree.

 

[portia]

Thank you so much for the replies! I don't trust my eye so I'm glad to have you experts chime in to guide me. It's a lot to spend so I want to make sure I get the best stone I can. I will keep looking.

Arcadian, I've purchased some stones from Eric so I'll send him an email and see what he has. He was wonderful to work with. I'll also send an email to AJS.

Thanks for the advice!!

 

[Largosmom]

Huge window...definitely can do better for the price

 

[Largosmom]

Not sure exactly what you are looking for...but here are some yummies.

http://torraca.net/gems/gems.php?spec=Gar

 

[chrono]

I know the pricing of fine spessartites have gone up but it shouldn’t on this one; it is clearly brownish from the video which is usually quite accurate.

 

[platinumrock]

I also see brown and a window. For nearly 3k, you should not see any of that, especially if you're looking for a "fanta" or "mandarin" spess. Custom is a great option since you can pick out the rough and choose the cut.

Good luck, and I hope you find your dream spess!

 

[Sagebrush]

Portia,

There is an ongoing discussion on this forum about the reliability of images as a basis for judging the quality and value of a gemstone. As a vendor, usually I hold my tongue when it comes to specific questions about quality based on photos because images are inaccurate and misleading and because it unprofessional to comment on potential competitors. In this case I would like to comment as I see this as an opportunity to make a point.

I disagree with the members who say that the stone is windowed and brownish. The stone sits at a 35 degree angle in both the video and still image. Faceted stones are designed to be viewed perpendicular to the table. Many well cut stones, viewed at that angle would exhibit a false window, though if this one did, you would be able to see the white background (see through effect) in both images and I can't see that, can you?

Colorwise: The gem appears to have an orange primary hue with a strong yellow secondary. I SEE NO BROWN. The hue is about 50% tone. The face up mosaic (key color) of the gem is complex. Brown is a deep/dark orange. At this tone it is unlikely that it has a brown mask, at least I don't see one.

Price: I also disagree with the statements on availability. Six carat stones of fine quality are difficult. The wholesale price per carat of six carat stone, given that I am correct in my analysis, is quite a bit more than the asking price for this gem, thus it is a good buy. It would be interesting if it could be obtained long enough to have it examined by a professional. Several sets of eyes coming up with conflicting analysis. Which is correct? As Gene said on the NSC post, given the difficulty of grading by image, the best guarantee is a good return policy.

 

[chrono]

Richard,
When a warm coloured stone is not well saturated, it will appear brownish to the eye. Brown is not a hue as far as I know in the Munsell colour chart, which I am using to describe the hue of the spessartite. So yes, the colour is yellowish orange, I agree with you there, but in terms of saturation, it isn’t particularly fine, therefore it appears brownish.

As for the window, I doubt it has a huge gaping window. In any case, with spessartite being a high RI stone, it should not show a window tilt so easily so what I’m seeing in the video might be a very small window which should “close up” once set, if it has any.

 

[breezing]

slightly OT but are you using the rock or soil munsell? curiousity on my part as i'm a soil tech and my munsell is well worn, i can also tell you that 10 people can hold a sample and use a munsell and each will still classify the color differently.

 

[portia]

Thank you everyone for your comments! To my untrained eye, I'm having trouble seeing the brown. I just see orange with a bit of yellow, but I do see the window that has been mentioned. I've heard that the proper setting can close a small window, but for this price maybe I'd be settling. I already have one spess I'm unhappy with... I certainly don't need two.

I will be sure to update this thread if I find any other stones that are possiblities. I sent an email to AJS and will contact some other vendors as well.

Largosmom - thanks for the link. Those are very pretty stones and definitely the color I'm looking for.

 

[chrono]

http://www.palagems.com/quality_4cs.htm shows the colour wheel
http://www.multicolour.com/catalogue/co ... 12002.html describes the Munsell colour chart that GIA uses.

 

[portia]

Richard,
When a warm coloured stone is not well saturated, it will appear brownish to the eye. Brown is not a hue as far as I know in the Munsell colour chart, which I am using to describe the hue of the spessartite. So yes, the colour is yellowish orange, I agree with you there, but in terms of saturation, it isn’t particularly fine, therefore it appears brownish.

As for the window, I doubt it has a huge gaping window. In any case, with spessartite being a high RI stone, it should not show a window tilt so easily so what I’m seeing in the video might be a very small window which should “close up” once set, if it has any.

Chrono, I just reread your post and looked at the stone again and I'm beginning to understand what you mean about the saturation making the stone appear slightly brownish.

 

[LD]

Portia - look at the video again. Do you see the darker areas around the edge? That's where you'll see a more concentration of brown. Now look at the middle of the stone - do you see how much more yellow it is? That's because of the cutting. Whilst it's not a window that you can see through (or a tilt window), this stone is a "native cut" rather than "precision cut". You can see that by the uneven facet placement just under the table and by the culet. This means that the colour is reflected back to the eye differently so in real life the difference in colour will be quite noticeable.

If you like the (almost) two tone look then it'll be worth getting but if you're looking for a fanta spess then this one isn't it I'm afraid. It's pretty but it's not like a Chrono or TL spess!

 

[Sagebrush]

Chrono,

I agree, brown is not, strictly speaking, a hue, except of course, in brown gemstones. As I said it is a darker orange and, as you know, some stones, specifically will exhibit brown as a secondary hue. GIA also recognizes that there are brown diamonds. This sort of sophistic reasoning is, as I pointed out in a previous post, the reason why the visually gray Wittelsbach is a blue diamond.

"When gray and brown are themselves highly saturated and dark enough to be dominant, they to begin to act the part of a hue, this is particularly true of brown." Secrets p.20. Suggest also Chapter 18 Spessartite Garnet. Oh, damn, there I go mentioning my book again suggesting someone actually read and I do understand how "nauseating" and "condescending" some members find that to be.

As for the window, I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused, does it have a window or doesn't it? First you said it did and now you say it doesn't or maybe it doesn't?

**Edited by moderator. Vendors are not allowed to discuss other vendors or their merchandise**

 

[LD]

Is there any need to be so snippy?

It really isn't becoming.

Tan is an honest vendor to call him " .... the famous Tan" is just derrogatory.

 

[StonieGrl]

Welcome fellow spessie lover!

I bought a 7.5 ct spessie from Andrew at Gemfix in February at the Tucson Gem Show. He had several really good spessies with the desired Fanta orange color. I got the large size of mine by making a tradeoff to some lightly visible bubbling or sugar in the stone but I made that tradeoff for the size and color and love the stone.

I saw a big tray of Andrew's spessies. You could go to his website and see what he has there, or even better, send him an email and ask him what he has, price, and what your priorities are for the stone---color? size? cleanliness? etc. I have bought several stones from Andrew, both online and in person, and have been very ver pleased. He is a very polite man to deal with too!

 

[T L]

Richard,
I believe colored diamonds are graded differently than colored gems. Grey and brown are not considered hues in the GIA grading of colored gems (ie GIA gem set), but they are considered modifiers. However, in colored diamonds, I do believe they are considered hues (ie Fancy greyish blue) and Fancy brown pink). Again, please clarify or correct me if I'm wrong.

When a stone is less saturated, it will be denoted as slightly greyish or slightly brownish, for example. However, that is regarded as the saturation (vivid, strong, moderately strong, sligtly greyish/brownish, etc. . ), not the hue. In Munsell, which is a three dimensional construct of color, X is considered the hue, Y is considered the tone, and Z the saturation. Grey nor brown are part of the basic set of hues, but part of the quality of saturation. I'm strictly talking colored gems here, not colored diamonds.

 

[LD]

AJS has some lovely Spess (priced accordingly of course) but they've also got a sale at the moment so it's worth browsing!

 

[portia]

Portia - look at the video again. Do you see the darker areas around the edge? That's where you'll see a more concentration of brown. Now look at the middle of the stone - do you see how much more yellow it is? That's because of the cutting. Whilst it's not a window that you can see through (or a tilt window), this stone is a "native cut" rather than "precision cut". You can see that by the uneven facet placement just under the table and by the culet. This means that the colour is reflected back to the eye differently so in real life the difference in colour will be quite noticeable.

If you like the (almost) two tone look then it'll be worth getting but if you're looking for a fanta spess then this one isn't it I'm afraid. It's pretty but it's not like a Chrono or TL spess!

Thank you LD. I do see what you're talking about now. Ahhh... I have so much to learn!! I'll have to look up Chrono's and TL's spesses. I was thinking of Harriet's when I started looking. I love her stone and ring. It looks like a ring I saw in a Tiffany Blue Book.

 

[portia]

Welcome fellow spessie lover!

I bought a 7.5 ct spessie from Andrew at Gemfix in February at the Tucson Gem Show. He had several really good spessies with the desired Fanta orange color. I got the large size of mine by making a tradeoff to some lightly visible bubbling or sugar in the stone but I made that tradeoff for the size and color and love the stone.

I saw a big tray of Andrew's spessies. You could go to his website and see what he has there, or even better, send him an email and ask him what he has, price, and what your priorities are for the stone---color? size? cleanliness? etc. I have bought several stones from Andrew, both online and in person, and have been very ver pleased. He is a very polite man to deal with too!

StonieGrl, thanks for info on Gemfix. I'll check out their website after work.

 

[T L]

Welcome fellow spessie lover!

I bought a 7.5 ct spessie from Andrew at Gemfix in February at the Tucson Gem Show. He had several really good spessies with the desired Fanta orange color. I got the large size of mine by making a tradeoff to some lightly visible bubbling or sugar in the stone but I made that tradeoff for the size and color and love the stone.

I saw a big tray of Andrew's spessies. You could go to his website and see what he has there, or even better, send him an email and ask him what he has, price, and what your priorities are for the stone---color? size? cleanliness? etc. I have bought several stones from Andrew, both online and in person, and have been very ver pleased. He is a very polite man to deal with too!

StonieGrl, thanks for info on Gemfix. I'll check out their website after work.

I will vouch that Andrew has some beautiful orange spessartites I have seen them in person, and they are quite saturated. I believe Crasru has one from Andrew Sarosi, and made a pendant out of it. It's really beautiful in color. She did post photos of it on this site, but I cannot find the thread.

 

[Sagebrush]

TL,

I don't really understand your point here. Yes brown normally functions as a mask, but there are brown gemstones, correct? Brown malaya garnet, brown tourmaline, brown spessartite. How do you describe them without saying the brown word? Brown is a color though not a hue. I am really not sure how GIA deals with that theoretically, I doubt if there is any difference in colored diamonds as opposed to other colored stones. its one of the little inconsistencies when theoretical color science is applied to the real world that often leads to absurd conclusions.

At any rate, back to the issue posed in this thread. Is the stone in the image brownish or isn't it? Does it have a window or doesn't it? I contend that the analysis so blithely given is flawed and I have stated the reasons why. Further, my central point is that the reliance on images leads to poor analysis which in turn leads to bad advice. **Edited by moderator. Vendors are not allowed to discuss other vendors or their merchandise**

 

[chrono]

Richard,
If you read all my posts in this thread, you’ll see that I never mentioned any windowing or even the word window, except in my post prior to this, which states that if the stone shows any window at all, I expect it to be very small. Therefore, I’m not sure where your confusion is coming from. As for the brown terminology, this spessartite has not been described as brown (as the dominant hue) by other members of PS but that it appears brownish or shows a slight brown tint, meaning that the colour is not a visually pure yellowish orange hue due to the lack of saturation, that is all. Another thing that puzzles me is why you think Mr. Tan is famous. Perhaps you can shed some light on this because I only know him to be an honest vendor, not famous in particular for doing something spectacular or noteworthy?

 

[Sagebrush]

Chrono, et al,

May have confused responses to you and TL here, my apologies, hopefully I answered the question about brown.

Shall we return to the central issue? That is, the discussion of these particular images of one spessartite, what those images show and what they do not?

 

[T L]

Chrono, et al,

May have confused responses to you and TL here, my apologies, hopefully I answered the question about brown.

Shall we return to the central issue? That is, the discussion of these particular images of one spessartite, what those images show and what they do not?

In the image, I personally see brown and so do some others, however, early on in this thread, Arcadian mentioned to ask Tan about the brown in the gem. As always, it's good to ask the vendor questions when unsure.

Richard,
Thank you for your explaination/clarification to my comments above.

 

[arjunajane]

I always believed it was against forum policy for one vendor to comment on another's merchandise? Or does this rule not apply to the famous Mr Wise either?

 

[colormyworld]

I always believed it was against forum policy for one vendor to comment on another's merchandise? Or does this rule not apply to the famous Mr Wise either?

Agreed, We should be left alone to keep getting the same misinformation from the same "experts". No reason to try and increase our knowledge here. Just move along nothing to see here.


As for the OP question. IMO that looks like a very good deal for a mandarin garnet of that size.