whiteflash v. hpdiamonds/infinity

[Skippy123]

Date: 6/16/2009 9:55:49 PM
Author: Allison D.

I don''t know precisely why this theme continues to grow legs, but it''s not based in fact.

The parameters haven''t changed; they are being produced using not only the same parameters but the same sightholders we''ve used for several years.

I agree it isn''t helpful to newbies or lurkers.

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 6/16/2009 10:15:10 PM
Author: Skippy123

Date: 6/16/2009 9:55:49 PM
Author: Allison D.

I don''t know precisely why this theme continues to grow legs, but it''s not based in fact.

The parameters haven''t changed; they are being produced using not only the same parameters but the same sightholders we''ve used for several years.

I agree it isn''t helpful to newbies or lurkers.

I agree. Thanks Alison for setting the record straight..

 

[Linda W]

Date: 6/16/2009 10:43:08 PM
Author: Kaleigh

Date: 6/16/2009 10:15:10 PM

Author: Skippy123

Date: 6/16/2009 9:55:49 PM

Author: Allison D.


I don''t know precisely why this theme continues to grow legs, but it''s not based in fact.


The parameters haven''t changed; they are being produced using not only the same parameters but the same sightholders we''ve used for several years.

I agree it isn''t helpful to newbies or lurkers.

I agree. Thanks Alison for setting the record straight..

Yes, Thank you Alj, all this bickering doesn''t help anyone really.

 

[joelly]

Whatever happen to Stuinkc? Does anyone know?

 

[FancyDiamond]

Date: 7/22/2009 11:06:12 PM
Author: joelly
Whatever happen to Stuinkc? Does anyone know?

I think either she bought both diamonds or she left out of frustration when the poachers bought both diamonds.

 

[Lula]

The mystery has been solved!

stuinkc found a lovely ring for his fiancee!

link to testimonial

He''s got to come back with better photos, though, that blurry one just won''t do!

Congratulations, stu!!

 

[WinkHPD]

Oh my goodness, the things I missed while I was in Antwerp.

I missed this whole thread and its very interesting opinions. I was however in email contact with our OP who had some lengthy discussions with Todd before contacting me.

I want to echo the comments of many, that there are indeed many many reputable dealers here on Pricescope and that it is difficult to go wrong when dealing with one of them.

Also as Todd stated, we are a very close knit group. I have had email and phone discussions in the past week with most of the people mentioned here, including Todd, Leslie and Brian both, Jonathon, Paul, John, but for some reason not Allison D. (pick up the phone girl, I miss you!) and others such as Al Gilbertson, and Peter Yantser. (Oh no, not people from BOTH labs, what am I thinking???)

While competitors by day, often fierce ones to outward appearances, we are also fast friends, holding deep and abiding respect for one another. When we go to trade shows we meet often, spending hours together on the show floor and having dinners where the comradarie is much more visible than the competition.

You, the consumers, are the ultimate beneficiaries from all this as our topics of discussion are often about how to better serve you. If in just this way, consistency benefits you. Our behind the scenes friendships are consistent in their desire to offer better products and better service and thus better values to you. It is my sincere desire that you all recognise what you have here in Pricescope and cherish it. I know of no other industry where this happens so openly, that the top quality producers are so bonded to one another within the bounds of friendship while still remaining dedicated competitors, each bringing their fine nuance of additional benefit to the table for you to choose from. Choose as you will, your choice will be the right one, for you.

Wink

 

[stuinkc]

Hello and greetings!

Ahh, the mystery has unraveled! Yes, I did indeed purchase a ring from Wink and disappeared into the background. I intended to post up some info a little earlier but just happened to get a little busy and unintentionally put some things on the back burner. I plan on getting some better pictures up and letting everyone share a glimpse of this marvelous beauty that Wink created.

Hope all is well for everyone & best regards,

Stuart

 

[Allison D.]

Date: 8/25/2009 9:30:16 AM
Author: Wink

Also as Todd stated, we are a very close knit group. I have had email and phone discussions in the past week with most of the people mentioned here, including Todd, Leslie and Brian both, Jonathon, Paul, John, but for some reason not Allison D. (pick up the phone girl, I miss you!) and others such as Al Gilbertson, and Peter Yantser. (Oh no, not people from BOTH labs, what am I thinking???)

Awwwww - I miss you too, Wink! And yes, we are overdue for a chat. I hope you''ll forgive me for becoming a victim of a ridiculous summer schedule this year.

I''ll try to connect with you this evening.

 

[joelly]

Stuinkc,
I''m glad you come back and show us the ring. Although its blurry, I can see that its gorgeous. Please post more pictures!!!!

 

[haagen_dazs]

Date: 6/15/2009 8:43:18 PM
Author: Lord Summerisle

Cutting House 1 soley supplys stones to Infinity as per Paul''s cutting parameters, diamonds as sold via a dealer network, by excellent vendors such as our Wee Willy Winky

here.

From what i heard,
hmm i thought Paul himself is the chief cutter. Am i correct? He IS the cutting house ...
..?? cutting house supply stones to another cutting house..maybe that''s how things are done?

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 8/25/2009 9:30:16 AM
Author: Wink
Oh my goodness, the things I missed while I was in Antwerp.

I missed this whole thread and its very interesting opinions. I was however in email contact with our OP who had some lengthy discussions with Todd before contacting me.

I want to echo the comments of many, that there are indeed many many reputable dealers here on Pricescope and that it is difficult to go wrong when dealing with one of them.

Also as Todd stated, we are a very close knit group. I have had email and phone discussions in the past week with most of the people mentioned here, including Todd, Leslie and Brian both, Jonathon, Paul, John, but for some reason not Allison D. (pick up the phone girl, I miss you!) and others such as Al Gilbertson, and Peter Yantzer. (Oh no, not people from BOTH labs, what am I thinking???)

While competitors by day, often fierce ones to outward appearances, we are also fast friends, holding deep and abiding respect for one another. When we go to trade shows we meet often, spending hours together on the show floor and having dinners where the comradarie is much more visible than the competition.

You, the consumers, are the ultimate beneficiaries from all this as our topics of discussion are often about how to better serve you. If in just this way, consistency benefits you. Our behind the scenes friendships are consistent in their desire to offer better products and better service and thus better values to you. It is my sincere desire that you all recognise what you have here in Pricescope and cherish it. I know of no other industry where this happens so openly, that the top quality producers are so bonded to one another within the bounds of friendship while still remaining dedicated competitors, each bringing their fine nuance of additional benefit to the table for you to choose from. Choose as you will, your choice will be the right one, for you.

Wink

You bring a tear to my eyes buddy

Seriously folks, those of us who play in the arena of ideal cut diamonds are a very tight knit group... I won''t name names, but this week I referred clients to two other dealers who happened to have what they were looking for when I couldn''t find it within the resources available to me... I checked around within the inventory of people I personally respect and located a viable option for the client - if I thought the other diamond was going to be inferior, I certainly would not have recommended it as an option.

I understand why there has to be discussions pertaining to "Vendor X" versus "Vendor Y" which one is better and all that, but in truth, most of us consider each other Comrades in Arms in the fight for Visual Performance which will be won by a uniform passion for diamonds of extremely fine make.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 10/15/2009 12:07:57 PM
Author: haagen_dazs

Date: 6/15/2009 8:43:18 PM
Author: Lord Summerisle

Cutting House 1 soley supplys stones to Infinity as per Paul''s cutting parameters, diamonds as sold via a dealer network, by excellent vendors such as our Wee Willy Winky

here.

From what i heard,
hmm i thought Paul himself is the chief cutter. Am i correct? He IS the cutting house ...
..?? cutting house supply stones to another cutting house..maybe that''s how things are done?

It seems that I have to clear up a misunderstanding here.

Indeed, HD, we are cutting all Infinity''s ourselves, starting from parcels of rough that we have purchased ourselves, and planned from start to finish.

Live long,

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 6/15/2009 10:07:52 PM
Author: Harriet
Todd,
From a consumer''s perspective, consistency does not matter since we are not buying in bulk.

I agree with your statement and am glad you said it. I keep excitedly coming to these threads so I can learn what are the suttle nuances(I have trouble really understanding if there are any perceptable ones) of an Infinity versus a BGD HA versus a WF ACA and I am always disappointed. The discussion never gets to the technical level I hoped it would.

I don''t want to hear about consistency and this is not espcially helpful to the OP because he has already chosen two stones and we can see the reflector images and importants stats on them, the OP doesn''t care about how close the rest of the stones are in the brand to his choices and anyone who posts and asks for advice on a specific stone should not be overly concerned with the brand consistency. I''ll let the dealers worry about that and their quality control and I would expect all three brands to have very good QC. We look at stones here on a case by case basis and may give a slight preference and bias to vendors that are known and trusted but this should never supercede the physical and optical tests we judge diamonds by here.

I have heard way too many times already that the best intentioned and skilled cutters can''t reproduce their work all the time so the consistency comes from the quality control and that area is subjective and I have not seen either of the three vendors openly discuss and disclose the minute crtieria they use as qualification and rejection criteria for their respective top cut round lines. If we did know this criteria there would be an objective way to judge the standards of the three vendors just like we judge the cut grade standards of GIA and AGS.

Now I do appreciate why these three formidable vendors would not make their trade secrets public knowledge but without it general comparisons of the 3 lines have very little educational value, and all we can do is compare stones on a case by case basis and general comments on the lines should not be made especially by tradespersons as they appear more like sales pitches for one line or another.

Sincerely,
CCl

 

[haagen_dazs]

Date: 10/16/2009 10:45:27 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Indeed, HD, we are cutting all Infinity''s ourselves,
Live long,

yuuuuuuppppppppp indeed

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 10/16/2009 11:37:21 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 6/15/2009 10:07:52 PM
Author: Harriet
Todd,
From a consumer''s perspective, consistency does not matter since we are not buying in bulk.

I agree with your statement and am glad you said it. I keep excitedly coming to these threads so I can learn what are the suttle nuances(I have trouble really understanding if there are any perceptable ones) of an Infinity versus a BGD HA versus a WF ACA and I am always disappointed. The discussion never gets to the technical level I hoped it would.

I don''t want to hear about consistency and this is not espcially helpful to the OP because he has already chosen two stones and we can see the reflector images and importants stats on them, the OP doesn''t care about how close the rest of the stones are in the brand to his choices and anyone who posts and asks for advice on a specific stone should not be overly concerned with the brand consistency. I''ll let the dealers worry about that and their quality control and I would expect all three brands to have very good QC. We look at stones here on a case by case basis and may give a slight preference and bias to vendors that are known and trusted but this should never supercede the physical and optical tests we judge diamonds by here.

I have heard way too many times already that the best intentioned and skilled cutters can''t reproduce their work all the time so the consistency comes from the quality control and that area is subjective and I have not seen either of the three vendors openly discuss and disclose the minute crtieria they use as qualification and rejection criteria for their respective top cut round lines. If we did know this criteria there would be an objective way to judge the standards of the three vendors just like we judge the cut grade standards of GIA and AGS.

Now I do appreciate why these three formidable vendors would not make their trade secrets public knowledge but without it general comparisons of the 3 lines have very little educational value, and all we can do is compare stones on a case by case basis and general comments on the lines should not be made especially by tradespersons as they appear more like sales pitches for one line or another.

Sincerely,
CCl

Paul, to the best of my knowledge, does not disclose his final criteria even to his vendors. I am rather sure the other brands protect their fine details as well. In fact, there is a history (from at least two PS cutters) of individuals requesting or downloading 3D scans, and those individuals happen to work for other manufacturers. And don’t even mention this subject, Eightstar. For years no one knew what the “secret recipe” was involving the break facets on their diamonds - until discussion on Pricescope revealed it for the world to know. While this is to be expected to some degree I don’t blame these guys for guarding at least some aspects of what they do! (Actually Paul told me what it was years before it became public knowledge, but since he is knowledgeable cutter that did not surprise me at all when he did.)

All I know is this. If a stone does not meet Paul’s criteria, it is sold on the secondary market. No one will ever know the diamond was cut by Infinity, nor does it matter, since it did not make the brand. They are fantastic diamonds but not quite to the taste of the one in charge. Some people would rather have a facet by facet analysis and don’t give two shakes about who was in charge, and that is fine. For others knowing a specific authority was in charge of the standards enforced is not only comforting, it personalizes the experience. Neither is “wrong.” Both are “right.”

On another note I think that level of consistency does matter to the consumer, although most of them will never know of it. We keep making the mistake of thinking that the average consumer knows or cares about the things that we do, but from my experience with walk in traffic, I can tell you that all most of my in house clients care about is, "Does it sparkle real pretty?" It takes only a few minutes to show them that it does and to explain a tiny bit about why. They may never know about consistency, but if they got a poorly cut diamond they would then never be as happy as they should be and they would never know or understand why.

The quality of consumer and the knowledge of the consumer in this forum is extraordinary, but we need to be cognizant of the fact that this level of knowledge is not prevalent. That to me is why consistency is important to the consumer.

Wink

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 10/16/2009 2:19:14 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 10/16/2009 11:37:21 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 6/15/2009 10:07:52 PM
Author: Harriet
Todd,
From a consumer's perspective, consistency does not matter since we are not buying in bulk.

I agree with your statement and am glad you said it. I keep excitedly coming to these threads so I can learn what are the suttle nuances(I have trouble really understanding if there are any perceptable ones) of an Infinity versus a BGD HA versus a WF ACA and I am always disappointed. The discussion never gets to the technical level I hoped it would.

I don't want to hear about consistency and this is not espcially helpful to the OP because he has already chosen two stones and we can see the reflector images and importants stats on them, the OP doesn't care about how close the rest of the stones are in the brand to his choices and anyone who posts and asks for advice on a specific stone should not be overly concerned with the brand consistency. I'll let the dealers worry about that and their quality control and I would expect all three brands to have very good QC. We look at stones here on a case by case basis and may give a slight preference and bias to vendors that are known and trusted but this should never supercede the physical and optical tests we judge diamonds by here.

I have heard way too many times already that the best intentioned and skilled cutters can't reproduce their work all the time so the consistency comes from the quality control and that area is subjective and I have not seen either of the three vendors openly discuss and disclose the minute crtieria they use as qualification and rejection criteria for their respective top cut round lines. If we did know this criteria there would be an objective way to judge the standards of the three vendors just like we judge the cut grade standards of GIA and AGS.

Now I do appreciate why these three formidable vendors would not make their trade secrets public knowledge but without it general comparisons of the 3 lines have very little educational value, and all we can do is compare stones on a case by case basis and general comments on the lines should not be made especially by tradespersons as they appear more like sales pitches for one line or another.

Sincerely,
CCl

Paul, to the best of my knowledge, does not disclose his final criteria even to his vendors. I am rather sure the other brands protect their fine details as well. In fact, there is a history (from at least two PS cutters) of individuals requesting or downloading 3D scans, and those individuals happen to work for other manufacturers. And don’t even mention this subject, Eightstar. For years no one knew what the “secret recipe” was involving the break facets on their diamonds - until discussion on Pricescope revealed it for the world to know. While this is to be expected to some degree I don’t blame these guys for guarding at least some aspects of what they do! (Actually Paul told me what it was years before it became public knowledge, but since he is knowledgeable cutter that did not surprise me at all when he did.)

All I know is this. If a stone does not meet Paul’s criteria, it is sold on the secondary market. No one will ever know the diamond was cut by Infinity, nor does it matter, since it did not make the brand. They are fantastic diamonds but not quite to the taste of the one in charge. Some people would rather have a facet by facet analysis and don’t give two shakes about who was in charge, and that is fine. For others knowing a specific authority was in charge of the standards enforced is not only comforting, it personalizes the experience. Neither is “wrong.” Both are “right.”

On another note I think that level of consistency does matter to the consumer, although most of them will never know of it. We keep making the mistake of thinking that the average consumer knows or cares about the things that we do, but from my experience with walk in traffic, I can tell you that all most of my in house clients care about is, 'Does it sparkle real pretty?' It takes only a few minutes to show them that it does and to explain a tiny bit about why. They may never know about consistency, but if they got a poorly cut diamond they would then never be as happy as they should be and they would never know or understand why.

The quality of consumer and the knowledge of the consumer in this forum is extraordinary, but we need to be cognizant of the fact that this level of knowledge is not prevalent. That to me is why consistency is important to the consumer.

Wink

I agree with your statement in yellow but this is a thread on Pricescope and once again this discussion is amongst well informed customers. The discussion of consistency is not relevant here and comparing it to your walk in customers is not appropriate. I can respect how a customer walking off the street whose eyes glaze over when you start talking about an Idealscope can appreciate the Infinity brand as that takes much of the guesswork out of their decision making and gives them confidence.

However, here the ASET and Idealscope, Hearts and Arrow Scopes and often Sarin data are available as well as many experienced posters who can easily judge the selections based on the information provided from these reflectors. This information holds much more weight than any general and less clearly specific claims(not to mention biased) comments about general brand consistency.

As an aside I wish I had gone through you to work with Richard Homer instead of going direct (but his price was excellent even without the wink discount) next time I'll try to give you shout to talk about my next colored stone project

.

Regards,
CCL

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 10/17/2009 12:16:04 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 10/16/2009 2:19:14 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 10/16/2009 11:37:21 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 6/15/2009 10:07:52 PM
Author: Harriet
Todd,
From a consumer''s perspective, consistency does not matter since we are not buying in bulk.

I agree with your statement and am glad you said it. I keep excitedly coming to these threads so I can learn what are the suttle nuances(I have trouble really understanding if there are any perceptable ones) of an Infinity versus a BGD HA versus a WF ACA and I am always disappointed. The discussion never gets to the technical level I hoped it would.

I don''t want to hear about consistency and this is not espcially helpful to the OP because he has already chosen two stones and we can see the reflector images and importants stats on them, the OP doesn''t care about how close the rest of the stones are in the brand to his choices and anyone who posts and asks for advice on a specific stone should not be overly concerned with the brand consistency. I''ll let the dealers worry about that and their quality control and I would expect all three brands to have very good QC. We look at stones here on a case by case basis and may give a slight preference and bias to vendors that are known and trusted but this should never supercede the physical and optical tests we judge diamonds by here.

I have heard way too many times already that the best intentioned and skilled cutters can''t reproduce their work all the time so the consistency comes from the quality control and that area is subjective and I have not seen either of the three vendors openly discuss and disclose the minute crtieria they use as qualification and rejection criteria for their respective top cut round lines. If we did know this criteria there would be an objective way to judge the standards of the three vendors just like we judge the cut grade standards of GIA and AGS.

Now I do appreciate why these three formidable vendors would not make their trade secrets public knowledge but without it general comparisons of the 3 lines have very little educational value, and all we can do is compare stones on a case by case basis and general comments on the lines should not be made especially by tradespersons as they appear more like sales pitches for one line or another.

Sincerely,
CCl

Paul, to the best of my knowledge, does not disclose his final criteria even to his vendors. I am rather sure the other brands protect their fine details as well. In fact, there is a history (from at least two PS cutters) of individuals requesting or downloading 3D scans, and those individuals happen to work for other manufacturers. And don’t even mention this subject, Eightstar. For years no one knew what the “secret recipe” was involving the break facets on their diamonds - until discussion on Pricescope revealed it for the world to know. While this is to be expected to some degree I don’t blame these guys for guarding at least some aspects of what they do! (Actually Paul told me what it was years before it became public knowledge, but since he is knowledgeable cutter that did not surprise me at all when he did.)

All I know is this. If a stone does not meet Paul’s criteria, it is sold on the secondary market. No one will ever know the diamond was cut by Infinity, nor does it matter, since it did not make the brand. They are fantastic diamonds but not quite to the taste of the one in charge. Some people would rather have a facet by facet analysis and don’t give two shakes about who was in charge, and that is fine. For others knowing a specific authority was in charge of the standards enforced is not only comforting, it personalizes the experience. Neither is “wrong.” Both are “right.”

On another note I think that level of consistency does matter to the consumer, although most of them will never know of it. We keep making the mistake of thinking that the average consumer knows or cares about the things that we do, but from my experience with walk in traffic, I can tell you that all most of my in house clients care about is, ''Does it sparkle real pretty?'' It takes only a few minutes to show them that it does and to explain a tiny bit about why. They may never know about consistency, but if they got a poorly cut diamond they would then never be as happy as they should be and they would never know or understand why.

The quality of consumer and the knowledge of the consumer in this forum is extraordinary, but we need to be cognizant of the fact that this level of knowledge is not prevalent. That to me is why consistency is important to the consumer.

Wink

I agree with your statement in yellow but this is a thread on Pricescope and once again this discussion is amongst well informed customers. The discussion of consistency is not relevant here and comparing it to your walk in customers is not appropriate. I can respect how a customer walking off the street whose eyes glaze over when you start talking about an Idealscope can appreciate the Infinity brand as that takes much of the guesswork out of their decision making and gives them confidence.

However, here the ASET and Idealscope, Hearts and Arrow Scopes and often Sarin data are available as well as many experienced posters who can easily judge the selections based on the information provided from these reflectors. This information holds much more weight than any general and less clearly specific claims(not to mention biased) comments about general brand consistency.

As an aside I wish I had gone through you to work with Richard Homer instead of going direct (but his price was excellent even without the wink discount) next time I''ll try to give you shout to talk about my next colored stone project

.

Regards,
CCL

LOL He probably does too. He is here this week for a couple of Round Tables, leaves in the morning actually, we just got back from a fabulous dinner.

At dinner he told Resa and I that in a perfect world he would just stay home and cut gems and never have to talk to anyone about them.

It would drive me batty not to get to talk to my clients regularly, but he really wants to be left to his cutting and he sees having to talk with people as an interruption.

Richard would LOVE to be a hermit, I would detest it with all my soul. Interesting how different two really good friends can be and still be really good friends.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 10/17/2009 12:16:04 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 10/16/2009 2:19:14 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 10/16/2009 11:37:21 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 6/15/2009 10:07:52 PM
Author: Harriet
Todd,
From a consumer''s perspective, consistency does not matter since we are not buying in bulk.

I agree with your statement and am glad you said it. I keep excitedly coming to these threads so I can learn what are the suttle nuances(I have trouble really understanding if there are any perceptible ones) of an Infinity versus a BGD HA versus a WF ACA and I am always disappointed. The discussion never gets to the technical level I hoped it would.

I don''t want to hear about consistency and this is not espcially helpful to the OP because he has already chosen two stones and we can see the reflector images and importants stats on them, the OP doesn''t care about how close the rest of the stones are in the brand to his choices and anyone who posts and asks for advice on a specific stone should not be overly concerned with the brand consistency. I''ll let the dealers worry about that and their quality control and I would expect all three brands to have very good QC. We look at stones here on a case by case basis and may give a slight preference and bias to vendors that are known and trusted but this should never supercede the physical and optical tests we judge diamonds by here.

I have heard way too many times already that the best intentioned and skilled cutters can''t reproduce their work all the time so the consistency comes from the quality control and that area is subjective and I have not seen either of the three vendors openly discuss and disclose the minute crtieria they use as qualification and rejection criteria for their respective top cut round lines. If we did know this criteria there would be an objective way to judge the standards of the three vendors just like we judge the cut grade standards of GIA and AGS.

Now I do appreciate why these three formidable vendors would not make their trade secrets public knowledge but without it general comparisons of the 3 lines have very little educational value, and all we can do is compare stones on a case by case basis and general comments on the lines should not be made especially by tradespersons as they appear more like sales pitches for one line or another.

Sincerely,
CCl

Paul, to the best of my knowledge, does not disclose his final criteria even to his vendors. I am rather sure the other brands protect their fine details as well. In fact, there is a history (from at least two PS cutters) of individuals requesting or downloading 3D scans, and those individuals happen to work for other manufacturers. And don’t even mention this subject, Eightstar. For years no one knew what the “secret recipe” was involving the break facets on their diamonds - until discussion on Pricescope revealed it for the world to know. While this is to be expected to some degree I don’t blame these guys for guarding at least some aspects of what they do! (Actually Paul told me what it was years before it became public knowledge, but since he is knowledgeable cutter that did not surprise me at all when he did.)

All I know is this. If a stone does not meet Paul’s criteria, it is sold on the secondary market. No one will ever know the diamond was cut by Infinity, nor does it matter, since it did not make the brand. They are fantastic diamonds but not quite to the taste of the one in charge. Some people would rather have a facet by facet analysis and don’t give two shakes about who was in charge, and that is fine. For others knowing a specific authority was in charge of the standards enforced is not only comforting, it personalizes the experience. Neither is “wrong.” Both are “right.”

On another note I think that level of consistency does matter to the consumer, although most of them will never know of it. We keep making the mistake of thinking that the average consumer knows or cares about the things that we do, but from my experience with walk in traffic, I can tell you that all most of my in house clients care about is, ''Does it sparkle real pretty?'' It takes only a few minutes to show them that it does and to explain a tiny bit about why. They may never know about consistency, but if they got a poorly cut diamond they would then never be as happy as they should be and they would never know or understand why.

The quality of consumer and the knowledge of the consumer in this forum is extraordinary, but we need to be cognizant of the fact that this level of knowledge is not prevalent. That to me is why consistency is important to the consumer.

Wink

I agree with your statement in yellow but this is a thread on Pricescope and once again this discussion is amongst well informed customers. The discussion of consistency is not relevant here and comparing it to your walk in customers is not appropriate. I can respect how a customer walking off the street whose eyes glaze over when you start talking about an Idealscope can appreciate the Infinity brand as that takes much of the guesswork out of their decision making and gives them confidence.

However, here the ASET and Idealscope, Hearts and Arrow Scopes and often Sarin data are available as well as many experienced posters who can easily judge the selections based on the information provided from these reflectors. This information holds much more weight than any general and less clearly specific claims(not to mention biased) comments about general brand consistency.

As an aside I wish I had gone through you to work with Richard Homer instead of going direct (but his price was excellent even without the wink discount) next time I''ll try to give you shout to talk about my next colored stone project

.

Regards,
CCL

Going back to the conversation at hand. I must again politely disagree with this statement.

The discussion of consistency is key to why I as an expert have elected to work with one brand exclusively. That fact, my choice and my statements, have value for many people, even many in the Pricescope audience you feel will not find it relevant. Anyone’s comments can hold bias, mine, a consumer’s, even yours. Similarly there can be value in any shared experience.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I believe my statements as a professional of several decades have proven very valuable to many. It is up to the different readers to weigh ALL of the contributions made on PS, from experienced vets, newbies, armchair analysts and seasoned regulars. It is NOT up to one person to pronounce what is relevant or appropriate.

I believe what I said was very appropriate as I have, as a professional, staked my reputation on working with a brand that I believe passionately in. I share that passion with my friends here on Pricescope, and I share it with my walk in clients as well. I even shared it with my daughter''s fiancé when it was time for him to propose.

I also believe that it is totally appropriate for you to analyze every diamond that you look at with all the tools that are available to you. We should both be able to contribute to this discussion and convey why we believe what we believe.

I do not accept that my sharing is inappropriate in any manner. It is based on the facts as I know them and my opinion of what I have seen about the brand for many many years. It is reassuring to me and to my clients to know that when I call in a stone for them to look at that I know it is going to be a winner. If I ever receive one that is not I will be hugely disappointed as well as shocked.

To the very few who are properly educated and trained to know how to assess the diamonds themselves this perhaps will have little to no value. To many it will have great value.

There is room for both sides in this conversation and both views are appropriate.

Just my opinion of course.

Wink

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/17/2009 1:29:44 AM
Author: Wink

Date: 10/17/2009 12:16:04 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 10/16/2009 2:19:14 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 10/16/2009 11:37:21 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 6/15/2009 10:07:52 PM
Author: Harriet
Todd,
From a consumer''s perspective, consistency does not matter since we are not buying in bulk.

I agree with your statement and am glad you said it. I keep excitedly coming to these threads so I can learn what are the suttle nuances(I have trouble really understanding if there are any perceptible ones) of an Infinity versus a BGD HA versus a WF ACA and I am always disappointed. The discussion never gets to the technical level I hoped it would.

I don''t want to hear about consistency and this is not espcially helpful to the OP because he has already chosen two stones and we can see the reflector images and importants stats on them, the OP doesn''t care about how close the rest of the stones are in the brand to his choices and anyone who posts and asks for advice on a specific stone should not be overly concerned with the brand consistency. I''ll let the dealers worry about that and their quality control and I would expect all three brands to have very good QC. We look at stones here on a case by case basis and may give a slight preference and bias to vendors that are known and trusted but this should never supercede the physical and optical tests we judge diamonds by here.

I have heard way too many times already that the best intentioned and skilled cutters can''t reproduce their work all the time so the consistency comes from the quality control and that area is subjective and I have not seen either of the three vendors openly discuss and disclose the minute crtieria they use as qualification and rejection criteria for their respective top cut round lines. If we did know this criteria there would be an objective way to judge the standards of the three vendors just like we judge the cut grade standards of GIA and AGS.

Now I do appreciate why these three formidable vendors would not make their trade secrets public knowledge but without it general comparisons of the 3 lines have very little educational value, and all we can do is compare stones on a case by case basis and general comments on the lines should not be made especially by tradespersons as they appear more like sales pitches for one line or another.

Sincerely,
CCl

Paul, to the best of my knowledge, does not disclose his final criteria even to his vendors. I am rather sure the other brands protect their fine details as well. In fact, there is a history (from at least two PS cutters) of individuals requesting or downloading 3D scans, and those individuals happen to work for other manufacturers. And don’t even mention this subject, Eightstar. For years no one knew what the “secret recipe” was involving the break facets on their diamonds - until discussion on Pricescope revealed it for the world to know. While this is to be expected to some degree I don’t blame these guys for guarding at least some aspects of what they do! (Actually Paul told me what it was years before it became public knowledge, but since he is knowledgeable cutter that did not surprise me at all when he did.)

All I know is this. If a stone does not meet Paul’s criteria, it is sold on the secondary market. No one will ever know the diamond was cut by Infinity, nor does it matter, since it did not make the brand. They are fantastic diamonds but not quite to the taste of the one in charge. Some people would rather have a facet by facet analysis and don’t give two shakes about who was in charge, and that is fine. For others knowing a specific authority was in charge of the standards enforced is not only comforting, it personalizes the experience. Neither is “wrong.” Both are “right.”

On another note I think that level of consistency does matter to the consumer, although most of them will never know of it. We keep making the mistake of thinking that the average consumer knows or cares about the things that we do, but from my experience with walk in traffic, I can tell you that all most of my in house clients care about is, ''Does it sparkle real pretty?'' It takes only a few minutes to show them that it does and to explain a tiny bit about why. They may never know about consistency, but if they got a poorly cut diamond they would then never be as happy as they should be and they would never know or understand why.

The quality of consumer and the knowledge of the consumer in this forum is extraordinary, but we need to be cognizant of the fact that this level of knowledge is not prevalent. That to me is why consistency is important to the consumer.

Wink

I agree with your statement in yellow but this is a thread on Pricescope and once again this discussion is amongst well informed customers. The discussion of consistency is not relevant here and comparing it to your walk in customers is not appropriate. I can respect how a customer walking off the street whose eyes glaze over when you start talking about an Idealscope can appreciate the Infinity brand as that takes much of the guesswork out of their decision making and gives them confidence.

However, here the ASET and Idealscope, Hearts and Arrow Scopes and often Sarin data are available as well as many experienced posters who can easily judge the selections based on the information provided from these reflectors. This information holds much more weight than any general and less clearly specific claims(not to mention biased) comments about general brand consistency.

As an aside I wish I had gone through you to work with Richard Homer instead of going direct (but his price was excellent even without the wink discount) next time I''ll try to give you shout to talk about my next colored stone project

.

Regards,
CCL

Going back to the conversation at hand. I must again politely disagree with this statement.

The discussion of consistency is key to why I as an expert have elected to work with one brand exclusively. That fact, my choice and my statements, have value for many people, even many in the Pricescope audience you feel will not find it relevant. Anyone’s comments can hold bias, mine, a consumer’s, even yours. Similarly there can be value in any shared experience.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I believe my statements as a professional of several decades have proven very valuable to many. It is up to the different readers to weigh ALL of the contributions made on PS, from experienced vets, newbies, armchair analysts and seasoned regulars. It is NOT up to one person to pronounce what is relevant or appropriate.

I believe what I said was very appropriate as I have, as a professional, staked my reputation on working with a brand that I believe passionately in. I share that passion with my friends here on Pricescope, and I share it with my walk in clients as well. I even shared it with my daughter''s fiancé when it was time for him to propose.

I also believe that it is totally appropriate for you to analyze every diamond that you look at with all the tools that are available to you. We should both be able to contribute to this discussion and convey why we believe what we believe.

I do not accept that my sharing is inappropriate in any manner. It is based on the facts as I know them and my opinion of what I have seen about the brand for many many years. It is reassuring to me and to my clients to know that when I call in a stone for them to look at that I know it is going to be a winner. If I ever receive one that is not I will be hugely disappointed as well as shocked.

To the very few who are properly educated and trained to know how to assess the diamonds themselves this perhaps will have little to no value. To many it will have great value.

There is room for both sides in this conversation and both views are appropriate.

Just my opinion of course.

Wink

Absolutely and please do not think otherwise for one moment Wink.

 

[Lula]

Great post, Wink! And it exemplifies why I chose you as my vendor and Infinity as my "brand."

I am biased, I admit it. But, if six months ago, I had the knowledge I have now about brands and consistency, I could have saved myself a lot of time and aggravation.

Each person has to decide for themselves how much time and energy he/she wants to invest in staring at reflector images and studying crown/pav angles. Or, you can do what I did, and buy from a vendor/brand who has done the legwork for you.

In this time of mass production, I am also proud to own a diamond that I know the history of -- hey, how many people can say they've met the cutter of their diamond?

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 10/17/2009 12:16:04 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 10/16/2009 2:19:14 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 10/16/2009 11:37:21 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 6/15/2009 10:07:52 PM
Author: Harriet
Todd,
From a consumer''s perspective, consistency does not matter since we are not buying in bulk.

I agree with your statement and am glad you said it. I keep excitedly coming to these threads so I can learn what are the suttle nuances(I have trouble really understanding if there are any perceptable ones) of an Infinity versus a BGD HA versus a WF ACA and I am always disappointed. The discussion never gets to the technical level I hoped it would.

I don''t want to hear about consistency and this is not espcially helpful to the OP because he has already chosen two stones and we can see the reflector images and importants stats on them, the OP doesn''t care about how close the rest of the stones are in the brand to his choices and anyone who posts and asks for advice on a specific stone should not be overly concerned with the brand consistency. I''ll let the dealers worry about that and their quality control and I would expect all three brands to have very good QC. We look at stones here on a case by case basis and may give a slight preference and bias to vendors that are known and trusted but this should never supercede the physical and optical tests we judge diamonds by here.

I have heard way too many times already that the best intentioned and skilled cutters can''t reproduce their work all the time so the consistency comes from the quality control and that area is subjective and I have not seen either of the three vendors openly discuss and disclose the minute crtieria they use as qualification and rejection criteria for their respective top cut round lines. If we did know this criteria there would be an objective way to judge the standards of the three vendors just like we judge the cut grade standards of GIA and AGS.

Now I do appreciate why these three formidable vendors would not make their trade secrets public knowledge but without it general comparisons of the 3 lines have very little educational value, and all we can do is compare stones on a case by case basis and general comments on the lines should not be made especially by tradespersons as they appear more like sales pitches for one line or another.

Sincerely,
CCl

Paul, to the best of my knowledge, does not disclose his final criteria even to his vendors. I am rather sure the other brands protect their fine details as well. In fact, there is a history (from at least two PS cutters) of individuals requesting or downloading 3D scans, and those individuals happen to work for other manufacturers. And don’t even mention this subject, Eightstar. For years no one knew what the “secret recipe” was involving the break facets on their diamonds - until discussion on Pricescope revealed it for the world to know. While this is to be expected to some degree I don’t blame these guys for guarding at least some aspects of what they do! (Actually Paul told me what it was years before it became public knowledge, but since he is knowledgeable cutter that did not surprise me at all when he did.)

All I know is this. If a stone does not meet Paul’s criteria, it is sold on the secondary market. No one will ever know the diamond was cut by Infinity, nor does it matter, since it did not make the brand. They are fantastic diamonds but not quite to the taste of the one in charge. Some people would rather have a facet by facet analysis and don’t give two shakes about who was in charge, and that is fine. For others knowing a specific authority was in charge of the standards enforced is not only comforting, it personalizes the experience. Neither is “wrong.” Both are “right.”

On another note I think that level of consistency does matter to the consumer, although most of them will never know of it. We keep making the mistake of thinking that the average consumer knows or cares about the things that we do, but from my experience with walk in traffic, I can tell you that all most of my in house clients care about is, ''Does it sparkle real pretty?'' It takes only a few minutes to show them that it does and to explain a tiny bit about why. They may never know about consistency, but if they got a poorly cut diamond they would then never be as happy as they should be and they would never know or understand why.

The quality of consumer and the knowledge of the consumer in this forum is extraordinary, but we need to be cognizant of the fact that this level of knowledge is not prevalent. That to me is why consistency is important to the consumer.

Wink

I agree with your statement in yellow but this is a thread on Pricescope and once again this discussion is amongst well informed customers. The discussion of consistency is not relevant here and comparing it to your walk in customers is not appropriate. I can respect how a customer walking off the street whose eyes glaze over when you start talking about an Idealscope can appreciate the Infinity brand as that takes much of the guesswork out of their decision making and gives them confidence.

However, here the ASET and Idealscope, Hearts and Arrow Scopes and often Sarin data are available as well as many experienced posters who can easily judge the selections based on the information provided from these reflectors. This information holds much more weight than any general and less clearly specific claims(not to mention biased) comments about general brand consistency.

As an aside I wish I had gone through you to work with Richard Homer instead of going direct (but his price was excellent even without the wink discount) next time I''ll try to give you shout to talk about my next colored stone project

.

Regards,
CCL

Wink,

I enjoy reading your posts as they are very educational and usually seem to be coming from genuine enthusiasm to help and educate. I''m not the forum police or a moderator but I do see a conflict here and I see a notable absence of Resellers/Dealers of (GOG, WF and BGD HA Branded Diamonds) expounding the virtues and the consistency of these lines in this thread. I don''t think tradespeople should be making such comments but this is nowhere close to what I''ve seen other vendors do so I''m not going to comment on it further.

I''m putting the Sherriff badge back in my pocket for now it was stolen anyway Andrey never gave me one.

Regards,
CCL

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 10/17/2009 10:09:40 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 10/17/2009 12:16:04 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 10/16/2009 2:19:14 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 10/16/2009 11:37:21 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 6/15/2009 10:07:52 PM
Author: Harriet
Todd,
From a consumer''s perspective, consistency does not matter since we are not buying in bulk.

I agree with your statement and am glad you said it. I keep excitedly coming to these threads so I can learn what are the suttle nuances(I have trouble really understanding if there are any perceptable ones) of an Infinity versus a BGD HA versus a WF ACA and I am always disappointed. The discussion never gets to the technical level I hoped it would.

I don''t want to hear about consistency and this is not espcially helpful to the OP because he has already chosen two stones and we can see the reflector images and importants stats on them, the OP doesn''t care about how close the rest of the stones are in the brand to his choices and anyone who posts and asks for advice on a specific stone should not be overly concerned with the brand consistency. I''ll let the dealers worry about that and their quality control and I would expect all three brands to have very good QC. We look at stones here on a case by case basis and may give a slight preference and bias to vendors that are known and trusted but this should never supercede the physical and optical tests we judge diamonds by here.

I have heard way too many times already that the best intentioned and skilled cutters can''t reproduce their work all the time so the consistency comes from the quality control and that area is subjective and I have not seen either of the three vendors openly discuss and disclose the minute crtieria they use as qualification and rejection criteria for their respective top cut round lines. If we did know this criteria there would be an objective way to judge the standards of the three vendors just like we judge the cut grade standards of GIA and AGS.

Now I do appreciate why these three formidable vendors would not make their trade secrets public knowledge but without it general comparisons of the 3 lines have very little educational value, and all we can do is compare stones on a case by case basis and general comments on the lines should not be made especially by tradespersons as they appear more like sales pitches for one line or another.

Sincerely,
CCl

Paul, to the best of my knowledge, does not disclose his final criteria even to his vendors. I am rather sure the other brands protect their fine details as well. In fact, there is a history (from at least two PS cutters) of individuals requesting or downloading 3D scans, and those individuals happen to work for other manufacturers. And don’t even mention this subject, Eightstar. For years no one knew what the “secret recipe” was involving the break facets on their diamonds - until discussion on Pricescope revealed it for the world to know. While this is to be expected to some degree I don’t blame these guys for guarding at least some aspects of what they do! (Actually Paul told me what it was years before it became public knowledge, but since he is knowledgeable cutter that did not surprise me at all when he did.)

All I know is this. If a stone does not meet Paul’s criteria, it is sold on the secondary market. No one will ever know the diamond was cut by Infinity, nor does it matter, since it did not make the brand. They are fantastic diamonds but not quite to the taste of the one in charge. Some people would rather have a facet by facet analysis and don’t give two shakes about who was in charge, and that is fine. For others knowing a specific authority was in charge of the standards enforced is not only comforting, it personalizes the experience. Neither is “wrong.” Both are “right.”

On another note I think that level of consistency does matter to the consumer, although most of them will never know of it. We keep making the mistake of thinking that the average consumer knows or cares about the things that we do, but from my experience with walk in traffic, I can tell you that all most of my in house clients care about is, ''Does it sparkle real pretty?'' It takes only a few minutes to show them that it does and to explain a tiny bit about why. They may never know about consistency, but if they got a poorly cut diamond they would then never be as happy as they should be and they would never know or understand why.

The quality of consumer and the knowledge of the consumer in this forum is extraordinary, but we need to be cognizant of the fact that this level of knowledge is not prevalent. That to me is why consistency is important to the consumer.

Wink

I agree with your statement in yellow but this is a thread on Pricescope and once again this discussion is amongst well informed customers. The discussion of consistency is not relevant here and comparing it to your walk in customers is not appropriate. I can respect how a customer walking off the street whose eyes glaze over when you start talking about an Idealscope can appreciate the Infinity brand as that takes much of the guesswork out of their decision making and gives them confidence.

However, here the ASET and Idealscope, Hearts and Arrow Scopes and often Sarin data are available as well as many experienced posters who can easily judge the selections based on the information provided from these reflectors. This information holds much more weight than any general and less clearly specific claims(not to mention biased) comments about general brand consistency.

As an aside I wish I had gone through you to work with Richard Homer instead of going direct (but his price was excellent even without the wink discount) next time I''ll try to give you shout to talk about my next colored stone project

.

Regards,
CCL

Wink,

I enjoy reading your posts as they are very educational and usually seem to be coming from genuine enthusiasm to help and educate. I''m not the forum police or a moderator but I do see a conflict here and I see a notable absence of Resellers/Dealers of (GOG, WF and BGD HA Branded Diamonds) expounding the virtues and the consistency of these lines in this thread. I don''t think tradespeople should be making such comments but this is nowhere close to what I''ve seen other vendors do so I''m not going to comment on it further.

I''m putting the Sherriff badge back in my pocket for now it was stolen anyway Andrey never gave me one.

Regards,
CCL

Cool. I think this means that we can keep enjoying one another''s posts, comfortable in the fact that we agree on some things and disagree on others. Of such things are interesting conversations made. I am going now to drop Richard off at the airport then to my granddaughter''s last soccer game of the season. Where the Wild Things Are is looming as possible afternoon entertainment...

Wink