William and Kate and Diana's Ring

[Sithathoriunet]

Welcome back, Sithathoriunet!

You mentioned the sapphire's violet 'undertone.' What do you think about its tone? To me, the stone appears to be rather dark, even in close-ups (I stress "appears" because I have never and will never handle it). I'll venture to say that, if the stone is ever valued as one of the most expensive sapphires out there, provenance would be a major factor. And, no, I have had no formal gemmological training.

Thank you Harriet!
The tone in the ring is impeccable, Garrard's did a wonderful job. This ring and it's stone are worthy of Royalty. The darkness tends to come through this stone for several reasons, ill try to list them here, without sounding too gemological! lol
First, sapphires in general, the blue ones, do not floresce or show any florescence, what this means is simply that when a bright light is shown onto them, they do not tend to light up as other stones will. They resist this, so they tend to be dark in appearance.
But, if you can get them at a angle with a softer light source, then you can really see what a sapphire can do.
Second Body tone being full and saturated tends to get darker with size....and with a stone like Diana's around 7 to 8 carats, this body tone makes for a darker non florescing stone...
But you do see the light contained within this stone and it shows it's quality with the undertone, or, secondary colour being violet..this is highly regarded as top colour. No undertone of grey or green, which actually denotes sapphires from say, Australia....They tend to be dark, with green in certain lights, but also top colour in that they have a general clarity that will stop you in your tracks if you find the right one! So, knowing all of this, you can most times tell where a sapphire is from in the world..which is kind of neat. There are many different 'top colours' to be aware of, and a top colour stone from the kashmire producing mines will not have the same top colour of say a sapphire that is ceylon or one from the yogo mine.....they will all be equally beautiful, and it will be a matter of personal preference!
hope that helps! lol

 

[Sithathoriunet]

Top colour example...not kashmire

 

[Sithathoriunet]

Can you tell where my sapphire in my engagement ring came from ? based on some of the info about traits of sapphires? Such Fun!!! smiles!

 

[Sithathoriunet]

Here are some more pics of my sapphire, it was also reset, this was how it appeared when i first wore it..but you can see that light angle lights it up depending on where it is and that this stone lights up well and with the bluest body tone as well.....

 

[Sithathoriunet]

So Diana's ring can look lit up or very dark, depending on light attack....Too bad we can't all have a close up turn with it eh? winx

 

[Harriet]

Can you tell where my sapphire in my engagement ring came from ? based on some of the info about traits of sapphires? Such Fun!!! smiles!

Even if I had knowledge of its trace impurities and types of inclusion, I wouldn't dare to guess. Where's it from?

 

[Harriet]

Welcome back, Sithathoriunet!

You mentioned the sapphire's violet 'undertone.' What do you think about its tone? To me, the stone appears to be rather dark, even in close-ups (I stress "appears" because I have never and will never handle it). I'll venture to say that, if the stone is ever valued as one of the most expensive sapphires out there, provenance would be a major factor. And, no, I have had no formal gemmological training.

Thank you Harriet!
The tone in the ring is impeccable, Garrard's did a wonderful job. This ring and it's stone are worthy of Royalty. The darkness tends to come through this stone for several reasons, ill try to list them here, without sounding too gemological! lol
First, sapphires in general, the blue ones, do not floresce or show any florescence, what this means is simply that when a bright light is shown onto them, they do not tend to light up as other stones will. They resist this, so they tend to be dark in appearance.
But, if you can get them at a angle with a softer light source, then you can really see what a sapphire can do.
Second Body tone being full and saturated tends to get darker with size....and with a stone like Diana's around 7 to 8 carats, this body tone makes for a darker non florescing stone...
But you do see the light contained within this stone and it shows it's quality with the undertone, or, secondary colour being violet..this is highly regarded as top colour. No undertone of grey or green, which actually denotes sapphires from say, Australia....They tend to be dark, with green in certain lights, but also top colour in that they have a general clarity that will stop you in your tracks if you find the right one! So, knowing all of this, you can most times tell where a sapphire is from in the world..which is kind of neat. There are many different 'top colours' to be aware of, and a top colour stone from the kashmire producing mines will not have the same top colour of say a sapphire that is ceylon or one from the yogo mine.....they will all be equally beautiful, and it will be a matter of personal preference!
hope that helps! lol

Thanks for the lay explanation. I have a few questions, if you don't mind.

I understand that sapphire performs better under natural light. However, doesn't the 'lighting(ing) up' have more to do with saturation than tone? E.g. See the spessartitites from Loliondo, which also do not fluoresce.

Secondly, what do you mean by "Second Body tone?" To my knowledge, it is saturation that increases with size.

Thirdly, don't some quarters prize a stone with less secondary over one with more? As a dichroic gem, is sapphire such a stone? I'm also confused as to what colour has to do with clarity in this case?

Last question, I promise. Isn't "top colour" usually independent of origin? E.g. Madagascar has produced a number of superb corundum specimens.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Sithathoriunet]

Can you tell where my sapphire in my engagement ring came from ? based on some of the info about traits of sapphires? Such Fun!!! smiles!

Even if I had knowledge of its trace impurities and types of inclusion, I wouldn't dare to guess. Where's it from?

LOL....yes, it can be a bit dauting to try to guess from pics I know! My sapphire is directly from Australia! It is a top colour stone from that country..why OZ? well, I saw this stone and fell in love with it...I toured Australia a few years ago with my music, and so fell in love with that country as well, so what better way to keep that with me then to wear it every day? winx...
You can tell a few things from the pics that can be a give away about wear it came from, first it's tone is dark...but lights up to electric blue when viewed in the light...the stone still has some silk inclusions, which are evident of no heat treatment, but a dead giveaway of it's Aussie roots, in certain lights when you turn it just the right way, you see a flash of green with the violet...in most cases in other parts of the world this green is of course not desirable, but with an Aussie stone, it denotes it's place of origin. You don't see this often, because most times the undertone is stronger then this secondary colour, and that is violet! Sorry, i'll stop going on now! LOL
Here it is in it's first setting along side of Diana's ring..

 

[Sithathoriunet]

Welcome back, Sithathoriunet!

You mentioned the sapphire's violet 'undertone.' What do you think about its tone? To me, the stone appears to be rather dark, even in close-ups (I stress "appears" because I have never and will never handle it). I'll venture to say that, if the stone is ever valued as one of the most expensive sapphires out there, provenance would be a major factor. And, no, I have had no formal gemmological training.

Thank you Harriet!
The tone in the ring is impeccable, Garrard's did a wonderful job. This ring and it's stone are worthy of Royalty. The darkness tends to come through this stone for several reasons, ill try to list them here, without sounding too gemological! lol
First, sapphires in general, the blue ones, do not floresce or show any florescence, what this means is simply that when a bright light is shown onto them, they do not tend to light up as other stones will. They resist this, so they tend to be dark in appearance.
But, if you can get them at a angle with a softer light source, then you can really see what a sapphire can do.
Second Body tone being full and saturated tends to get darker with size....and with a stone like Diana's around 7 to 8 carats, this body tone makes for a darker non florescing stone...
But you do see the light contained within this stone and it shows it's quality with the undertone, or, secondary colour being violet..this is highly regarded as top colour. No undertone of grey or green, which actually denotes sapphires from say, Australia....They tend to be dark, with green in certain lights, but also top colour in that they have a general clarity that will stop you in your tracks if you find the right one! So, knowing all of this, you can most times tell where a sapphire is from in the world..which is kind of neat. There are many different 'top colours' to be aware of, and a top colour stone from the kashmire producing mines will not have the same top colour of say a sapphire that is ceylon or one from the yogo mine.....they will all be equally beautiful, and it will be a matter of personal preference!
hope that helps! lol

Thanks for the lay explanation. I have a few questions, if you don't mind.

I understand that sapphire performs better under natural light. However, doesn't the 'lighting(ing) up' have more to do with saturation than tone? E.g. See the spessartitites from Loliondo, which also do not fluoresce.

Secondly, what do you mean by "Second Body tone?" To my knowledge, it is saturation that increases with size.

Thirdly, don't some quarters prize a stone with less secondary over one with more? As a dichroic gem, is sapphire such a stone? I'm also confused as to what colour has to do with clarity in this case?

Last question, I promise. Isn't "top colour" usually independent of origin? E.g. Madagascar has produced a number of superb corundum specimens.

Thanks for clarifying.

Hi! no worries at all, I love to discuss stones! ok, so, one at a time so i dont get confused! Sapphires perform over all very well under natural or diffused lighting...so bright sunlight can actually make them appear much darker, just as a too bright and too direct artificial light can. I find that softer, less direct lighting looks great with them...
Lighting up, ok, that has to do with a few different things, and I just found a really good little discription that explans it probably better then i can, so, i'll paste it here for all of us! Makes it easy to understand!

'Every gemstone has its own color. A blue sapphire is not simply a blue sapphire. It may be a midnight blue, a deep darkish blue or a light royal blue. There are also pink, yellow, purple, black, orange sapphires and other shades.

A ruby is not merely red. It may be pigeon blood red, pinkish red or violet red. And emeralds are found in a variety of colors from grass green to soft green, olive green darkish green and more.

The color of a gemstone is determined by three separate factors: hue, tone and saturation.
Color shades
Hue

Dictionary Definition

1. A gradation or variety of a color; tint: pale hues
2. The property of light by which the color of an object is classified as red, blue,
green or yellow in reference to the spectrum
3. Color: all hues of the rainbow
4. Form of appearance

The hue of a gemstone has an impact on its value. Some shades are more sought after than others, some are rarer, and some, with varying measures of brown or grey tinge are considered better value for money for those on a more limited budget.

Tone

Dictionary Definition

1. A quality of color with reference to the degree of absorption or reflection of light; a tint or shade; value
2. The distinctive quality in which colors differ from one another. In addition,
these differences are indicated through tint, shade, and a slight modification
of any given color, including hue: green with a yellowish tone.

We use tone to indicate the intensity of color. Tones can range from clear (without color) to black. When we add light, dark, darkish or other adjectives to our color descriptions, we are referring to the tone of the color being described.

For example, if you are looking for a royal blue sapphire you may find stones described as light royal blue, medium royal blue, or dark royal blue depending on their tone.

Saturation

Dictionary Definition

The degree of chroma or purity of a color; the degree of freedom from admixture with white.

A gemstone with excellent saturation reflects a pure color, without brown or grey hues. Gemstones are rated with either excellent or very good saturation for a vibrant, bright color. '


And secondary tones, yes! You are totally right there, most prefer to see less secondary colour in there, but most every stone has that feature, and so, in the case of sapphire, blue sapphires, they say that a violet secondary tone is preferable to say, grey...
Colour does make a big difference with clarity in so much as with darker hues it becomes more difficult to 'see through' a stone, so one might perceive a darker stone as being say opaque, when in fact you could see through it in the correct lighting..sapphires of a darker blue tend to appear this way, so a ceylon sapphire because it is a different blue then an aussie, and would appear to be of higher clarity then the aussie because it is a colour which makes it easier to see through...wear as the aussie, may be just as clean, but darker so harder to see through..of course, inclusions in all of their forms have a lot to do with clarity as well, but let's just assume that the sapphires we were speaking of are all loup clean, so ceylon can be seen as translucent, while the aussie may appear opaque although it is not...hope that made sense! sorry....
And yes, top colour can and should be independent of origin, you are right, but, in the case of the photos posted earlier of the loose sapphire, that colour will most certainly be denoted by it's origin, kashmire..no other sapphire from other parts of the world will ever have that hue...That was why I spoke of top colour being many different variations, based on where a sapphire had originated, I meant that is you have a sapphire from the ugo mines, in montana for instance, it will not have the same hue, but can also be top colour, just different, so, if you only place the colour in the photos as 'top colour' then you would have to have a kashmire...no other sapphire from another origin will have that colour. So, in that case origin was linked unseperably to the top colour.
So, I hope I helped and didn't get too confusing...lol
Long live Corundum!!!!!
So below are some emeralds for example..of hue saturation and tone, then a few sapphires of top colour for examples of top colours available out there! Enjoy!!!!

 

[Sithathoriunet]

Ok! I just found a good little info article on sapphires! Ill post it here,
'Sapphire Color
Sapphire and the color blue tend to be synonymous. Although many sources claim that its name is of Greek derivation, its roots seem most likely to be from ancient Hebrew - which describes it as a deep blue stone. But sapphires are not just available in the blue variety for which they are named. They are also found in a colorless variety (which looks similar to diamond) and in other colors, called "fancy colors" - shades of orange, yellow, green, purple and pink. Three terms are used to refer to the color of sapphire:

* Hue refers to the sapphire's basic color - blue, slight green, strong green, slight purple, and strong purple.
* Saturation (also called color purity and intensity) is the extent to which the hue is masked by brown or gray.
* Tone refers to the amount of color in the sapphire ranging from very light to very dark.


Blue sapphire Hues ranging from Slight
Green to Strong Purple. Blue is ideal.
Sapphire Saturation showing color-purity
from Vivid to Weak. Vivid is ideal.

Sapphire Tone ranging from Very Dark
to Very Light. Medium tone is ideal.

Blue sapphire color table combining saturation and tone. The table on the right shows the most desirable color range.
On its own, the word "sapphire" refers only to the blue gemstone variety. The term cornflower blue is often associated with the best quality sapphires. But this term carries with it a perceived difference in color for different people. Most experts agree, however, that medium-to-dark vivid-blue (or violet-blue) sapphires are the best.

The most sought after colors tend to be vivid, pure and highly saturated devoid of hints of brown or gray. You will often see dark black or gray areas in the sapphire, known as extinction. Extinction is affected by the tone, cut, lighting quality and lighting position. Fewer areas of extinction are preferred. Lighter-colored, shallower stones normally show less extinction than darker, deeper-cut stones.

Unlike diamonds that have a 23 letter color-grading system, sapphires lack a convenient method to characterize their color. This is due in large part to the extreme ranges of tone, hue and color purity in sapphires. Judging the ideal color in a sapphire has been largely left up to the eye of the beholder.
Padparadscha sapphires

These extremely rare and prized sapphires are medium-toned orange-pink stones found in Sri Lanka. This beautiful variety of sapphire may be priced at over $20,000 per carat.

Pink sapphire

Other than Padparadscha, pink sapphires are the most valuable of the fancy sapphires. Found mostly in Burma or Sri Lanka, these gorgeous gems display a saturated hot pink color.

Other sapphire colors also exist (orange, purple, yellow, green and colorless)'

 

[Sithathoriunet]

And Continued!

 

[Sithathoriunet]

I would like to say Thank you to Pandora who began this conversation and to Harriet who brought in new areas of topic!!!! I had no idea this thread could go this direction! And it made it so much FUN! so Thanks to you both!!!!

 

[Sithathoriunet]

Here is a bit on mining and such.
'For decades, the basaltic lava rocks and river sands and gravels of Burma, Thailand, Sri Lanka, Ceylon, Pailin Cambodia have been major sources of excellent quality gem sapphires. Other sources of loose sapphire are Australia, Brazil, Kashmir, Kenya, Malawi, Tanzania, Zimbabwe and Montana, USA.

Today however, there is a new and important source of gem quality sapphires on the market - Madagascar. Its blue sapphire's are similar in appearance, quality, and material to those from Sri Lanka. Generally they are indistinguishable from Ceylon sapphires and are interchangeable in value.

USA
In the U.S., the Yogo Gulch in Judith Basin Co. has produced choice, deep blue Sapphire crystals. Not far from the Yogo Gulch, near Helena, waterworn Sapphires stones are found in the Missouri River throughout its length in Lewis and Clark County. Montana is also the claim to a few other localities: Salesville, Gallatin Co., Rock Creek, Granite Co., and Cottonwood Creek, Deer Lodge Co. Other famous occurrences are at Hastings Co., Ontario; Corundum Hill, near Unionville, Chester Co., Pennsylvania; and several scattered areas in southern California and North Carolina. Large deposits of Emery were worked near Peekskill, Westchester Co., New York.
Rubies can be found in the U.S. in the Cowee Creek District, Macon Co., North Carolina. A few scattered finds were reported in Sparta and Ogdensburg, Sussex Co., New Jersey.

The production of gem-quality sapphires in the United States is not new or recent. In 1865, the first U.S. sapphires were found in the gravels of the Missouri River in Lewis and Clark County, Montana. This was followed by subsequent discoveries on Dry Cottonwood Creek in Deer Lodge County in 1889, on Rock Creek in Granite County in 1892, and in Yogo Gulch in Judith Basin County in 1895. Additionally, small amounts of sapphire are recovered from Quartz Gulch in Granite County, Pole Creek in Madison County, the Missouri River in Chouteau County, and Brown's Gulch in Silver Bow County. Furthermore, corundum crystals, from which star sapphires have been cut, are found in Beaverhead and Madison Counties. Also, in 1895, the first sapphires were produced from the Cowee Valley in Macon County, North Carolina. But until very recently, with the exception of Yogo Gulch material, the commercial gemstone industry has had limited interest in U.S. sapphires.

Montana.--Mining of Yogo Gulch sapphires began within a year of their discovery in 1895 and continued for 39 years. In 1923, the mine was damaged so badly by rain that it could not economically recover. Other attempts have been made to commercially mine the deposit, but to date, all of these attempts have ended in economic failure.

Yogo's are unique among the world's sapphires. They lack the color zoning so prevalent in other sapphires, their uniform "corn-flower blue" color is natural (not the result of heat-treating), and their clarity is uniformly high. These features rank them among the world's finest sapphires. Unfortunately, the rough is both small and flat, wafer-like in shape. The majority of the crystals or pieces of crystals recovered are too small to be cut, most are less than 1 carat and finds of over 2 carats are rare. Reportedly, the largest crystal was a 19 carat stone found in 1910 that was cut into an 8-carat stone. The size of the cut stones greatly restrict the market for Yogo's, they are beautiful, small, very expensive sapphires.

Currently, Yogo sapphires are produced from three sources: Rancor lnc., produces material from the original Yogo Gulch deposit; Vortex Mining produces from a recently discovered extension of the Yogo dike; and material is produced by individuals from privately owned lots in Sapphire Village. The first two producers market only cut stones and finished goods and the third is comprised essentially of hobbyists.'

 

[Sithathoriunet]

My favorite part about discussing stones is their folklore and mythology! I adore this stuff! Here is a bit about the mythology of sapphires,
'Mythology

The myths, legends, beliefs, superstitions, traditions and symbolism associated with sapphire have been numerous...

Legend has it that the first person to wear Sapphire was Prometheus, the rival of Zeus, who took the gemstone from Cacaus, where he also stole fire from heaven for man.

Known as the "Gem of Heaven", the ancient Persians believed Sapphires were a chip from the pedestal that supported the earth, and that its reflections gave the sky its colors.

Tradition holds that Moses was given the Ten Commandments on tablets of sapphire, making it the most sacred gemstone. Because blue sapphires represent divine favor, they were the gemstone of choice for kings and high priests. The British Crown Jewels are full of large blue sapphires, the symbol of pure and wise rulers.

The guardians of innocence, Sapphires symbolize truth, sincerity and faithfulness, and are thought to bring peace, joy and wisdom to their owners. In ancient times it was believed that when the wearer of a Sapphire faced challenging obstacles, the gem's power enabled them to find the correct solution.

In India it was believed that a Sapphire immersed in water formed an elixir that could cure the bite of scorpions and snakes. Alternatively, if it were worn as a talisman pendant, it would protect the wearer against evil spirits.

The following legend is Burmese in origin and highlights Sapphires‘ connection with faithfulness: “Eons ago Tsun-Kyan-Kse, a golden haired goddess with Sapphire blue eyes, presided lovingly over the temple of Lao-Tsun. Everyday, the temple‘s chief monk Mun-Ha, meditated before the golden goddess accompanied by his devoted companion, a green-eyed cat named Sinh. One day the temple was besieged by a group of terrible outlaws. When they threw Mun-Ha to the floor, Sinh leapt fiercely at the bandits, jumping up on his master‘s chest to protect him. The wrong doers fled screaming in fear, never to return and in gratitude for his courage, the golden goddess awarded Sinh with her Sapphire blue eyes. To this day, Sinh‘s ancestors guard over the temple.” The temple still stands and is populated by Siamese cat‘s with striking blue eyes (typically this breed has green eyes).

For hundreds of years Blue Sapphires were the popular choice for engagement and wedding rings.'

 

[Sithathoriunet]

Corundum !

 

[Sithathoriunet]

Top Ceylon Sapphires

 

[Sithathoriunet]

Ceylon...want one this size? yum!!!

 

[Sithathoriunet]

Kashmire, you can see the difference in body colour between ceylon and kashmire, both are considered top colour... Of course there are many different top colour sapphires different from these as well...

 

[Sithathoriunet]

Some star sapphires!

 

[Sithathoriunet]

Ceylon ring...perhaps an engagement ring!

 

[Sithathoriunet]

Aussie sapphires,

 

[Sithathoriunet]

Yellow sapphire and diamond ring...YUM! I like the detail of this one!

 

[Sithathoriunet]

This ring contains my favorite colour of sapphire, for me, the ideal...I just love the deep ocean colour, most calming dreamy and beautiful!

 

[Sithathoriunet]

Some variations on the tradition!

 

[Sithathoriunet]

This sapphire is one of my own, love it's glowing colour and it never looks dark...nice cab

 

[Sithathoriunet]

Some amazing cabs!
Ok, so, eye candy is up, later on i will get into posting some vintage or antique sapphire rings that were forrunners to the ring Diana had. The classic and traditional style dates back, and i will get some pics for us all!
off for now!

 

[Imdanny]

Blue sapphire is my birthstone (but I like yellow too ).

 

[Sithathoriunet]

Blue sapphire is my birthstone (but I like yellow too ).

Nice to have such a wonderful birthstone! I wish I could say I had it too! lol...alas, my birthday is in january! smiles!

 

[Sithathoriunet]

So, I am finding some interesting engagement antique sapphire rings which obviously bare a striking resemblance in style to Diana's ring, this one is of british origin...with prongs all the way around the center stone it caught my eye!

 

[Sithathoriunet]

This pretty e ring was made between 1913 and 1920...again with the same basic style...very pretty