Another shooting in the US…….

[missy]

"Studies have shown the ban had little effect on overall criminal activity, firearm homicides, and the lethality of gun crimes. There is evidence that the frequency of mass shootings may have slightly decreased while the ban was in effect." <--- quoted from Wiki

This is NOT saying that places with strict gun control doesn't have lower rates. It shows that it is not the magic cure-all some people think it is.

There were still mass shootings without assault guns. Yes, the graph showed a decrease in some of the years, and likely the number per incident was much lower. But it is not nearly the magic cure all that people think it is, and it would be extremely hars to enact.

By the way, I never said I was against an assault weapons ban...

I wasn’t quoting from wiki. You were. I quoted sources I trust. Studies that show it does make a difference. Banning assault weapons will reduce death from firearms. And I don’t care whether or not you are for or against the banning of assault weapons . I am responding to what you wrote.

 

[telephone89]

In a way, reading this thread gives me a better idea of why something that seems so straightforward (think New Zealand/Ardern) can be mired in a never ending stream of reasons (excuses). Why US cannot be compared to other countries who have enacted laws against widespread gun ownership, why it isn’t just guns, it’s everyone’s right to own guns (aka actual weapons that are used in wars) etc etc etc.

As if other countries don’t have mentally ill people right? Or we don’t have social media? Or we don’t have bullying in schools? Cohesion? Seriously have you seen how multi-racial some countries are?

It’s just… sad (after typing and deleting a few other phrases). What a terrible waste of human lives. So sad for all the families and victims of gun violence (and presumably there will be many more).

I find it so confusing that people will come up with any number of excuses as to why it’s not just guns. But every other (developed) nation has young kids on social media, parents who are working on their own career (and How disgusting to the people who blame working mothers and a lack of ‘family values’ for gun violence), and many other countries also have white men and people suffering from mental health issues. And yet only one of these countries continually has this issue? How can it be blamed on video games and TikTok?! People really just want to bury their heads in the sands and think ‘it has to be something else’. No, it’s pretty clear to literally everyone outside the US that it’s a GUN issue.

 

[missy]

I find it so confusing that people will come up with any number of excuses as to why it’s not just guns. But every other (developed) nation has young kids on social media, parents who are working on their own career (and How disgusting to the people who blame working mothers and a lack of ‘family values’ for gun violence), and many other countries also have white men and people suffering from mental health issues. And yet only one of these countries continually has this issue? How can it be blamed on video games and TikTok?! People really just want to bury their heads in the sands and think ‘it has to be something else’. No, it’s pretty clear to literally everyone outside the US that it’s a GUN issue.

And it’s clear to many of us in the USA @telephone89.

 

[Obscura]

I wasn’t quoting from wiki. You were. I quoted sources I trust. Studies that show it does make a difference. Banning assault weapons will reduce death from firearms. And I don’t care whether or not you are for or against the banning of assault weapons . I am responding to what you wrote.

What you quoted shows up to me with only the snippet that Wiki wrote with the footnoted study.

I merely said that a ban wouldn't solve the problem.

 

[Lookinagain]

The states with the strictest gun control laws still have horribly high gun homicide rates.

Show me where I said they didn't.

I had asked you when you wrote that what analysis you were looking at because my understanding was that states with stricter gun controls did have lower gun homicide rates per capita but I don’t think you responded to my question.

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

It's hard to mourn properly when there is the equivalent of a mass shooting every single day in the US. It only happens here, with deadly regularity.
No matter the reasoning, the desperate grip on the gun is killing us and is the number one danger to our children.
It's killing our kids. Whole classrooms.
That's it.
I'm angered by most disingenuous diversion aspects of the conversation pro unregulated gun America is engaged in right now. They don't care about mental illness, they don't care that their children are more likely to die/injured with guns in home- and do. They care about being armed for when the 'minorities come for them'. They couch that in tyranny!, freedom!, but what they mean is black and brown. Why else strap on to go get an ice cream in a safe neighborhood? They're admitting outright that it's people like them that are a danger to themselves and us all.
This time it was 19 kids bleeding out and dying because the dozen+ or so police/agents with military grade weaponry tactical gear were afraid of one kid with a weapon of war.
They bled out waiting for us to save them.
All those guns didn't make them safe and they didn't save them
They're dead because of it.
There is no defense against that. None.
This is my own personal opinion, but just what kind of piece of shit do you need to be to insist/resist being being convinced of regulation after that?
Even FOX news is calling for gun control after this most recent slaughter. Are they sincere? Possibly. More likely they see the writing on the wall now that two mass shootings in a few weeks were directly connected back to them as a source of inspiration and support of cause.
There wouldn't be the need to be going in hot all the time otherwise, at least not a legitimate one. It's why they blend seamlessly into racist, Dominionist faux militant culture much of the time.
I'm sick of coddling hatred, weakness and fear of people who don't have the understanding or reverence for training, discipline or discernment of the gun they hold.
No one is asking for/legislating a total gun ban. That is another lie. America just wants it to be harder for teens to obtain one, limit the number and type of firearm in the home(there is no legitimate reason for a personal arsenal). Ban weapons of war. Background checks. Registration of said gun with appropriate agreed storage. Tax all sales of gun/ paraphernalia and use those taxes to help mental illness. That's not a ban. That's just responsible gun ownership.
This works everywhere else it's been implemented; anyone who would have issue with what works should have their motives scrutinized. Anyone who places their recreation over the safety of everyone else should be scrutinized. They are questionable people.
I refuse to excuse the selfishness of the rabid gun owners and their bullshit reasoning of 'individualism'. They don't have legitimate reason for owning the guns no one is trying to take from them. We can assume with equal weight they want them to murder other Americans(this is also obviously a bullshit reason on the other side- but just as valid as Guns, God and Gays Freedom). It's as valid as their bullshit.
Many responsible gun owners would gladly register and document already existing guns in the home. I will.
If we want to be 'Constitutionalist' about it, no modern weaponry or accessory would be obtainable under the Amendment, and all firearms would have to be stored and registered at a central armory when not in use in active situational defense of their town unless otherwise permitted for hunting/target for an agreed upon amount of time. You'd have to sign each gun and box of bullets out. Under strict documentation and regulation. This is a much stricter set of parameters. Cool, lets do that then.

 

[Obscura]

I find it so confusing that people will come up with any number of excuses as to why it’s not just guns. But every other (developed) nation has young kids on social media, parents who are working on their own career (and How disgusting to the people who blame working mothers and a lack of ‘family values’ for gun violence), and many other countries also have white men and people suffering from mental health issues. And yet only one of these countries continually has this issue? How can it be blamed on video games and TikTok?! People really just want to bury their heads in the sands and think ‘it has to be something else’. No, it’s pretty clear to literally everyone outside the US that it’s a GUN issue.

That's because people's attitudes here are largely sh*t. No one cares about communities or their neighbors, they are entitled, and they don't have a sense of self accountability. But I see all that spreading into other countries now too, and it's not good.

As I've said, guns and their availability exacerbate the problem, but we have a severe societal problem that isn't being addressed either.

It isn't a either/or problem. They go hand in hand. But sure, keep seeing only black and white. It will solve nothing. It's worked so well so far hasn't it...?

 

[missy]

What you quoted shows up to me with only the snippet that Wiki wrote with the footnoted study.

I merely said that a ban wouldn't solve the problem.

It’s a start. We need to start. There is no one thing that will take care of this. We need to do many things. Instead of knocking down proposals that will work towards the “problem“ as you put it we should be working on all possible solutions. And yes that would be a great place to start. IMO

 

[missy]

That's because people's attitudes here are largely sh*t. No one cares about communities or their neighbors, they are entitled, and they don't have a sense of self accountability. But I see all that spreading into other countries now too, and it's not good.

Yeah unfortunately it’s not just in the USA. Entitlement is a disease all over the world. As is lack of accountability. And speaking of which the NRA needs to be held accountable. Gun sellers need to be held accountable. Politicians need to be held accountable.

 

[Obscura]

Yeah unfortunately it’s not just in the USA. Entitlement is a disease all over the world. As is lack of accountability. And speaking of which the NRA needs to be held accountable. Gun sellers need to be held accountable. Politicians need to be held accountable.

This I totally agree with this and your last one. There needs to be a widespread overhaul on how gun ownership works and the measures in place to make sure they don't end up in whackos hands.

I'll throw media into the mix too. I hate their speculations before the facts come out and their propaganda. Both sides do it and I find it shady and irresponsible.

 

[missy]

I had asked you when you wrote that what analysis you were looking at because my understanding was that states with stricter gun controls did have lower gun homicide rates per capita but I don’t think you responded to my question.

That is true @Lookinagain
I think I might have posted a link earlier regarding this.

This I totally agree with this and your last one. I'll throw media into the mix too. I hate their speculations before the come out and their propaganda. Both sides both do it and I find it shady and irresponsible.

I agree.

 

[Obscura]

I had asked you when you wrote that what analysis you were looking at because my understanding was that states with stricter gun controls did have lower gun homicide rates per capita but I don’t think you responded to my question.

I did reply. I stated that I never said states that had stricter gun control *didn't* have less mass shootings and usually overall gun deaths, but that it was still a major problem even with the restrictions.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

 

[missy]

I hope it is OK to share this.

"

I know this is hard to read, but it’s important: The shooter who murdered my beautiful butterfly Dylan carried an AR-15 assault-style weapon into Sandy Hook Elementary.
In approximately four minutes, he shot 154 bullets, killing 20 children and six educators. Five of those bullets hit Dylan, and in an instant, my little boy was gone.
But in the time it took the shooter to reload, 11 children were able to escape. If the sale of military-style assault weapons had been prohibited, just think how many more children could have survived. Perhaps Dylan would still be alive today. Perhaps more people would have escaped from the horrific mass shootings in Parkland, Boulder and so many other communities.
That's why I'm trying to gather 100,000 petition signatures demanding Congress make it illegal to purchase an assault weapon. But we're still several thousand signatures short of our goal, and it looks like you haven't signed yet. So please, sign the petition right now to help save lives.
– Nicole Hockley (Dylan's mom)



SANDYHOOKPROMISE.ORG
Sign the Petition: Stop Assault Weapon Sales Now!
https://takeaction.sandyhookpromise...eo8fMMVTukK_WGsxpiHr0cIH0OoGdds3qCZkXunfJ-4zg
"

 

[Calliecake]

When we have small children calling 911, begging for help as they watch their friends and teacher die and we also have 19 police officers in the school hallway for over an hour, not entering the classroom because they are afraid of the weapon the shooter is using, IT’S TIME TO BAN THE AR15 GUN AND HIGH CAPACITY MAGAZINES.

An 11 year old girl who survived asked to speak to a reporter so other children could hear what she did to stay alive. The children are trying to protect each other as the ADULTS do nothing. We aren’t making the necessary changes to protect our children.



@Petalouda, You wrote a great post. I wish you hadn’t deleted it.

 

[Karl_K]

When we have small children calling 911, begging for help as they watch their friends and teacher die and we also have 19 police officers in the school hallway for over an hour, not entering the classroom because they are afraid of the weapon the shooter is using,

NO
It was a freaken bureaucrat yet again that ordered them not to go in. They finally ignored his orders and went in anyway and ended the killer.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I want to thank Its Mainly You for your great post. This proliferation began after the 60's civil rights movement. Black crime was reported on the front pages of all the news outlets. NY got so bad, I left that city(Brooklyn ).

Its more than just a little difficult to put some genies back in the bottle. Guns are so plentiful it boggles my mind to figure out how we can get them out of the hands of the population. They are too afraid to give them up. I looked this up this morning and fear is the most powerful human instinct we have. Hey people, we have had a coup .We have turned into a nation of people who are afraid of Gov.t, and black and brown people. And everyone wants or demands something. Our nation cannot stand this way. No one gets 100 % of what they want.

I am at the stage that I only believe that the courts can do something.

And there is Karl defending the police. Don't blame the bureaucrat. 19 officers outside the door for an hour. Disgusting!

Annette
Thanks, Its Mainly You!

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

NO
It was a freaken bureaucrat yet again that ordered them not to go in. They finally ignored his orders and went in anyway and ended the killer.

Nope.
That is the piss poor excuse and lie they're trying to push. They're being called on it nationally.
They've lied about many things that happened that day.
That is not the procedure in place, and they know it. It's why they've been scrambling and changing their story over and over.
Just following orders isn't a viable legal or moral defense.
Cowardice. It was cowardice.
They were afraid of being shot and sacrificed 19 fourth graders.
They admit this as if it is somehow exculpatory in the death of all those children and the teachers who died.
A bureaucrat didn't let those kids bleed out. The police on scene did.

An off duty officer called by his wife was the one who went in to save his own daughter-and helped evacuate other students- just like the unarmed mommy did for her kids after these same police cuffed her, and then released her.

They chose not to, these 'good men' with guns. The fully militarized police with ten times the semi automatic firepower, these police with full Kevlar armor...
They were in direct violation state and federal guidelines put in place for two decades.

‘Confront the attacker’: Texas police appear to have violated shooting response policy

Local law enforcement under scrutiny over delay in entering Uvalde classroom

www.theguardian.com

Officers waited for backup during Texas school shooting because ‘they could’ve been shot’: lieutenant

Officers outside the Uvalde school waited for backup to engage Salvador Ramos because they feared “they could’ve been shot,” a state official said.

nypost.com

 

[Calliecake]

NO
It was a freaken bureaucrat yet again that ordered them not to go in. They finally ignored his orders and went in anyway and ended the killer.

@Karl_K , Have you been watching what experts are saying about this? Police officers are trained what to do regarding an active school shooter. The protocol is “immediate action until the threat is eliminated”. This was reported by Juliette Kayyem, an expert in this field.

Did you watch the news conferences by the Governor and Col. Steven McCraw (Texas Dept of Public Saftey) ? The timeline has been on various news shows the past two days.

19 police officers stood in the hallway and took no action for over 60 minutes. They did not take action because they feared they could be shot. Meanwhile small defenseless children, pretending to be dead, were in that room with the killer.

 

[Karl_K]

I am going by this and similar reports elsewhere:
"Critical minutes ticked by as a school district police chief instructed over a dozen officers to wait in the hallway, believing there was no longer an active attack, even as terrified students pleaded for help in 911 calls and desperate parents begged to be allowed to save their children, according to officials and interviews with parents."

Slow police response may have delayed treatment for injured students in Texas elementary school massacre: Live updates

Officials acknowledged a catastrophic failure by police to not immediately enter the classroom as a gunman massacred 19 students and two teachers.

www.usatoday.com

 

[Karl_K]

@Karl_K , Have you been watching what experts are saying about this? Police officers are trained what to do regarding an active school shooter. The protocol is “immediate action until the threat is eliminated”. This was reported by Juliette Kayyem, an expert in this field.

Did you watch the news conferences by the Governor and Col. Steven McCraw (Texas Dept of Public Saftey) ?

The timeline has been on various news shows the past two days.

19 police officers stood in the hallway and took no action for over 60 minutes. They did not take action because they feared they could be shot. Meanwhile small defenseless children, pretending to be dead, were in that room with the killer.

Its a fact they waited, the part I disagree with is that it was because they just feared being shot.
They were ordered not to go in.

Slow police response may have delayed treatment for injured students in Texas elementary school massacre: Live updates

Officials acknowledged a catastrophic failure by police to not immediately enter the classroom as a gunman massacred 19 students and two teachers.

www.usatoday.com

“The wrong decision”: Texas DPS says local police made crucial error as school shooting continued

Uvalde’s local incident commander thought the active shooting had stopped and that the gunman had barricaded himself inside the school. Inside, the killing continued.

www.texastribune.org

 

[Calliecake]

@Karl_K , I don’t want to argue with you. There are small children in my family. The past few days have been extremely upsetting.

Could you stand there and do nothing knowing there were small children in that room? My guess is the officers were being updated that children were alive in that room and calling 911. I actually hope they didn’t know because the thought of them knowing and doing nothing is incomprehensible.

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

Again, nope:
It's not an opinion. It's the justification they are going with.
From: Texas Department of Public Safety Lt. Chris Olivarez

Texas Department of Public Safety Lt. Chris Olivarez said in a Thursday interview with CNN that the first few officers who entered Robb Elementary School after 18-year-old shooter Salvador Ramos were met with gunfire and retreated to avoid being shot and killed.

“At that point, if they pursued it any further — not knowing where the suspect was at — they could’ve been shot; they could’ve been killed and, at that point, that gunman would have the opportunity to kill other people inside that school,” Olivarez told host Wolf Blitzer.

Many of those little kids bled out and died because of this.

 

[Karl_K]

@Karl_K , I don’t want to argue with you. There are small children in my family. The past few days have been extremely upsetting.

sorry, I dont want to argue with anyone either.
I have been seething about this since it happened and I heard the police waited yet again.

 

[Calliecake]

No problem @Karl_K . I’m sorry too if I upset you. This situation has everyone upset.

 

[Jambalaya]

Everything concerning this incident is just too upsetting to read about.

The poor little children who will never grow up. The poor families who have lost huge, huge slices of their futures. It really doesn't bear thinking about. And I cannot imagine the trauma of the children who were witnesses. I expect they will be affected for the rest of their lives. It's like a war suddenly broke out, with no warning.

Sandy Hook had recently upgraded all its security, but the gunman simply shot through a glass panel next to the door and stepped through it.

What will it take to stop a proportion of young men from doing this?? Why are some young men so desperately disturbed?

I notice they don't pick on people their own size. (Talking about this latest shooting and Sandy Hook.) What big tough men, picking on little unarmed people half their size. Utter, utter cowards. If feelings of inadequacy partly drove them to this, then they were right - they were utterly inadequate as human beings, which is why they had to shoot little unarmed children to make themselves feel big and powerful.

 

[Demelza]

You know what, you're right.

I've always stuck up for LE. From where I'm sitting, from everything our various outlets have revealed thus far, it does look like in this instance LE bungled and innocents paid the price. But we don't know everything that happened yet. We don't know for sure. Large portions of the who, what, and when are still missing.

So you're right, we wait before we pass judgment, because that's the right thing to do.

Looks like your initial impression was spot on! I can't imagine how those parents feel now knowing that perhaps a better police response could have saved their children's lives.

 

[yssie]

I know this will be an unpopular opinion but when a young man makes a decision to go kill a bunch of primary school kids - I think there was probably no amount of mental health help that could have “saved” him. I think that decision takes an amount of sociopathy that’s just not “fixable”. But at the very least we could have not legally armed him.

This whole mess is getting more heartbreaking by the press release. If LE are society’s angels, and I know that I’ve called LE and military that because despite what I said earlier, honestly, I believe it with every part of me that functions - then we’ve created a place where even angels fear to tread. Our LE deserve better than the position that our lax gun control has put them in.

Everything concerning this incident is just too upsetting to read about.

The poor little children who will never grow up. The poor families who have lost huge, huge slices of their futures. It really doesn't bear thinking about. And I cannot imagine the trauma of the children who were witnesses. I expect they will be affected for the rest of their lives. It's like a war suddenly broke out, with no warning.

Sandy Hook had recently upgraded all its security, but the gunman simply shot through a glass panel next to the door and stepped through it.

What will it take to stop a proportion of young men from doing this?? Why are some young men so desperately disturbed?

I notice they don't pick on people their own size. (Talking about this latest shooting and Sandy Hook.) What big tough men, picking on little unarmed people half their size. Utter, utter cowards. If feelings of inadequacy partly drove them to this, then they were right - they were utterly inadequate as human beings, which is why they had to shoot little unarmed children to make themselves feel big and powerful.

 

[icy_jade]

If you google comparisons between US and other developed countries, you'll see researched articles showing we are higher. Some of the research delves into differences in culture, medical protocols for reporting, terminology, etc., which can account for the higher rate, but overall, the US definitely has significant issues across the population spectrum.

Or maybe US has better access to mental health facilities. Most parts of the world aren’t as advanced in mental health awareness. So more facilities = higher diagnosis.

Again, I find it hard to comprehend that US would have higher rates of mental illnesses or that people from the US are such “snowflakes”. For one, your education system is so relaxed compared to the stress East Asian kids go through… but ok then again kids in my part of the world generally don’t worry about being shot in school. I could be wrong of course. But unless the US environment is so screwed up or genetically you guys have the worst luck of the draw, why would it be so much higher?

 

[Jambalaya]

I think there was probably no amount of mental health help that could have “saved” him.

No, not at the point they've reached when they snap. But maybe intervention earlier in their lives....I mean, surely there's a build-up to doing something so terrible. To me, an example of an early warning sign would be a young teen who isolates himself.

I feel as if we as a society are missing something in our search for answers. Some teens get depressed and then there are some who are both depressed and suicidal. Then there are the rare ones who are homicidal and who do actually go out and murder an individual. But what makes someone mass-shoot people, and at a SCHOOL, specifically, as opposed to opening fire in a restaurant or a shopping mall? Why do these unhinged people want to kill the young? Is it simply that school shootings became a "thing" in the minds of the criminally insane, and they glamorize it? As in, "If I kill more kids than X did, I'll be famous"?

Whatever it is, I wish the world's psychologists would figure out pronto what on earth makes a young man do this.

 

[Jambalaya]

But unless the US environment is so screwed up or genetically you guys have the worst luck of the draw, why would it be so much higher?

I have a theory about this. I'm only half-serious, but I'm kinda serious. You have to remember that the US is a country of immigrants, much more so than any other. Back in the day, you had to be a bit nuts to come here. By that I mean, it's really not normal behavior - for most people - to leave your entire world and all your loved ones behind with little money in your pocket for an uncertain future, knowing that you would likely never be able to return because it had cost you everything you had just to make the journey once. Up until about 15 years ago, you could still find the old-school immigrants around, and they had never traveled back to their homes. They literally hadn't been "home" in 40-60 years, and it wasn't uncommon for the immigrants of yesteryear to do immigration that way - usually from necessity. They knew that there was no going back when they left, mostly, and that they faced an uncertain future when they reached America from Ireland or Italy, or wherever people came from back then. Just think of the grit and guts and sheer nerve that you'd have to have possessed to immigrate 100 years ago or more. It would have helped if you'd been a little wacko! It's a wacko decision, when you think about it rationally. A sensible person would have stayed put, in their village, with all their family around them! And then all the wacko immigrants of 200 years ago kept having little wacko babies, and here we are!

Joke. Just trying to inject some levity into this sad discussion. And I do think there's something to it. All of us who are not Native American are here thanks to some crazy ancestor who looked across the sea and thought, "I know! I'll try my luck!" I know for a fact that my dad's side are criminally insane, so perhaps I'm biased.