Another shooting in the US…….

[icy_jade]

France has had 2,979 terrorist attacks in the last fifty years.

I wonder why it happens so often in France and not in the US?

List of terrorist incidents in France - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Global Terrorism Index | Countries most impacted by terrorism

The Global Terrorism Index measures the impact of terrorism and provides a comprehensive summary of the key global trends in terrorism.

www.visionofhumanity.org

In this case, the lower the score/ ranking, the better…

US ranks 28, France is 35

Zero score for where I live so is ranked 93.

 

[icy_jade]

My point is that these happenings don't mean that the US is uniformly a bad place, and other countries have their own serious problems. It annoys me to have my country ragged on as a whole thanks to the occasional homicidal lunatic.

No one is saying that US is uniformly a bad place. You are choosing to blow things out of context. But hey my kids are asleep, I have some time and your posts are making me find out more about the world and appreciating where I stay a bit more, despite the crap weather and small/expensive housing.

 

[Jambalaya]

Jade, do you mind revealing which country you live in? I'm just curious. You talk about crap weather and small/expensive housing, but said you're not in the UK, although it sounds like it. So I'm just curious.

 

[Jambalaya]

No one is saying that US is uniformly a bad place

I hear nothing but negative things about the US from friends, colleagues, and what I read online. I think many people do hold the view that the US is a bad place! I'm just saying that it's hard to hear people criticizing your home so much, when it's not like other countries don't have a lot of problems too - a big one being terrorist bombs - and when there are many positives about the States. But perhaps I can't expect outsiders to appreciate the good things, since they don't experience it day to day.

 

[Jambalaya]

In this case, the lower the score/ ranking, the better…

US ranks 28, France is 35

Zero score for where I live so is ranked 93.

I had a quick look at this. I see that measures include injury and deaths, so despite France's thousands of terror attacks and the US's low incidence of attacks, what happened on 9/11 must have pushed the totals way up.

And the info doesn't answer the question of why bomb attacks are so frequent in European countries, but not in the US. The US remained blissfully (mostly) free of terror attacks in the last few decades while European countries were dealing with a lot of bombs.

ETA: Obviously, big changes are needed in terms of gun control, banning assault weapons, and extending access to mental-health resources. I just get tired of the predictable outpouring of negativity against the US as a whole when a tragedy happens. But I guess it's the same in Europe, probably. Maybe people went on about how dreadful the UK was when the IRA were blowing up shopping malls and putting bombs in hotels and train-station garbage cans, because they didn't feel safe shopping or traveling.

 

[Calliecake]

It happens in this country because we as a country have allowed it to happen. Our gun control laws should have drastically changed after Columbine. We all know it’s the GUNS.

Your right to have fun playing with a gun should not over ride everyone else's safety.

These survivng children aren’t going to be able to walk around with a gun everywhere they go to feel safe. They are going to be dealing with PTSD at times throughout their lives. This trauma doesn’t completely go away, ever. They are speaking about what they saw on Tuesday and it is horrific. Seeing an AR15 is going to be a trigger for them. How are children supposed to know who is a good guy or a bad guy with a gun. Heck adults can’t even tell the difference.

We wonder why we have a society of children dealing with anxiety and mental health issues. We created these issues for these children. We need to take responsibility for what we as adults have done and fix this.

 

[Jambalaya]

We all know it’s the GUNS.

It is, especially assault weapons, but it's also lack of access to mental health services. They seem to be stretched, everywhere. I just read a book about Madison Holleran, the teenager who ran track at Penn and died by suicide when she took a running leap off the top floor of a parking garage. She had reached out to mental-health services at her school and was told she'd have to wait three weeks for an appointment. And she was privileged, being a student at Penn.

Are there just not enough medical students going into psychiatry, I wonder?

ETA: All around me, I see people who could quite clearly benefit from mental-health services, and when I look back at people around me when growing up, it's clear to me now that they really could have done with some help. I don't think people utilize mental-health services enough; I would almost go so far as to say that it's more common than not to need some help, at some point in one's life. I read about Adam Lanza, whose mother took him to a few different experts, and only the child program at Yale seemed to understand the depth of his problems. Sadly, the recommendations in their report were not followed adequately.

To me, it the issues with guns mostly go back to mental health. Mentally healthy people do not shoot up schools no matter how many guns are available. (And also, assault weapons should be banned IMO.)

 

[icy_jade]

I think many people do hold the view that the US is a bad place!

Based on what I’ve been reading, I won’t plan any holidays to the US. Then again I’m from Singapore and most places are unsafe in comparison. Trade offs? If you vandalize eg spray graffiti in trains like a certain US teenager many years ago, you can be caned. And no chewing gum sold. But since I don’t have a habit of vandalizing stuff and like my trains to be clean I can live with that trade off. Property prices are ridiculous, cars are expensive, weather is crap (hot and humid). See, no place is perfect and I don’t think where I currently live is perfect but definitely US has its problems. And pretty significant ones from an outsider. Again, I always think if you are rich enough you will be quite sheltered from whatever crap is going on. You can live in a bubble and be pretty much sheltered from the realities of life.

I had a quick look at this. I see that measures include injury and deaths, so despite France's thousands of terror attacks and the US's low incidence of attacks, what happened on 9/11 must have pushed the totals way up.

It’s a 5 year weighted average so no I don’t think 9/11 counts. This is pretty recent stuff.

 

[Jambalaya]

Best for the rich, not the poor.

I am not rich, and I have no complaints about my quality of life. I do live in a very blue state, which helps a lot. If you live in one of the saner parts of the US, you can take advantage of the good parts of living in the US and you're not so much affected by all the bad stuff you see in the news. I do feel very sorry for people in deep-red states, however. If I lived in one of those, I would hot-foot it out of there to a blue state!

 

[Mreader]

Back to the topic at hand. We were questioning the timeline and more information does suggest that they f*cked up BIG TIME. Read the comments below the article.

Uvalde Live Updates: ‘It Was the Wrong Decision,’ Police Say of Delay in Confronting Gunman

Officials described a harrowing series of 911 calls, including made by children inside the school. When specially equipped federal immigration agents arrived at Robb Elementary School, local police told them to hold off from confronting the gunman, officials say.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Jambalaya]

It’s a 5 year weighted average so no I don’t think 9/11 counts. This is pretty recent stuff.

Huh, that's weird. I can't think of many terrorist attacks in the last five years, not least because of the pandemic. But perhaps I'm thinking of mass international terrorism and not domestic incidents, like the terrible shooting at the Buffalo supermarket recently.

I see that the US, UK, and France are pretty equal at 4.96; 4.77; and 4.56 respectively. Interesting.

 

[Jambalaya]

Based on what I’ve been reading, I won’t plan any holidays to the US. Then again I’m from Singapore and most places are unsafe in comparison. Trade offs? If you vandalize eg spray graffiti in trains like a certain US teenager many years ago, you can be caned. And no chewing gum sold. But since I don’t have a habit of vandalizing stuff and like my trains to be clean I can live with that trade off. Property prices are ridiculous, cars are expensive, weather is crap (hot and humid). See, no place is perfect and I don’t think where I currently live is perfect but definitely US has its problems. And pretty significant ones from an outsider. Again, I always think if you are rich enough you will be quite sheltered from whatever crap is going on. You can live in a bubble and be pretty much sheltered from the realities of life.

Very interesting; thanks for responding with your country of residence, icy_jade.

I am not rich, but I AM lucky enough to live in a blue state, and that makes a big difference. I realize that I am lucky not to live in a deep-red place.

 

[Jambalaya]

Back to the topic at hand. We were questioning the timeline and more information does suggest that they f*cked up BIG TIME. Read the comments below the article.

Uvalde Live Updates: ‘It Was the Wrong Decision,’ Police Say of Delay in Confronting Gunman

Officials described a harrowing series of 911 calls, including made by children inside the school. When specially equipped federal immigration agents arrived at Robb Elementary School, local police told them to hold off from confronting the gunman, officials say.

www.nytimes.com

I haven't yet caught up with all the news, but if this is accurate, it's terrible. There's no excuse for not going in - the police have all the protective gear they could need!

 

[Matata]

Before everyone loses their minds about what the cops did or didn't do, note what SCOTUS ruled. It looks like "to serve and protect" means to protect only when police choose to do it.​

Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect Someone​

Snipped from 2005 NYT Times
WASHINGTON, June 27 - The Supreme Court ruled on Monday that the police did not have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm, even a woman who had obtained a court-issued protective order against a violent husband making an arrest mandatory for a violation.

The decision, with an opinion by Justice Antonin Scalia and dissents from Justices John Paul Stevens and Ruth Bader Ginsburg, overturned a ruling by a federal appeals court in Colorado. The appeals court had permitted a lawsuit to proceed against a Colorado town, Castle Rock, for the failure of the police to respond to a woman's pleas for help after her estranged husband violated a protective order by kidnapping their three young daughters, whom he eventually killed.

 

[Calliecake]

We now know why the police were hesitating to answer questions yesterday. This is devastating. How on earth could ANYONE not go in and fight to save those children, let alone law enforcement. They knew there were defenseless children alive in that room.

 

[Gussie]

My heart is breaking. I wanted it so badly to not be true about the way that law officers handled the situation. I don't even know what to say.

My son graduates from high school tomorrow and the ceremony is in the building right next door to the NRA convention. I am so disgusted that this is here in my home. I am even more anguished that those kids will never graduate.

 

[Calliecake]

@Gussie, How are you? Are you doing okay?

I’m sorry. I wrote the above before seeing your response.
I’m so sorry @Gussie. Nothing was adding up yesterday. I can’t believe this is how this was handled. I feel sick.

 

[aljdewey]

We wonder why we have a society of children dealing with anxiety and mental health issues. We created these issues for these children. We need to take responsibility for what we as adults have done and fix this.

I couldn't agree more, and I'd take it a step further - we need to also take responsibility for what we haven't done well enough as adults.

One of the biggest contributors to anxiety and mental health issues in children is being bullied, being ostracized, being mercilessly ridiculed and made to feel as though there is no place they belong and no safe haven. Most of it starts super early - elementary school, when kids spend less of their days in company of family and more time among peers. The jockeying for acceptance in peer groups begins early, and often involves putting down others to gain acceptance.

I can't speak for all, but I can say that among me and my childhood friends, all our parents were quick to reprimand us and make sure we knew it was a Serious offense with swift consequences if we bullied other kids. I don't see that same urgency today.

Not only is bullying more vitriolic these days, but it's far more pervasive and harder to bypass. It's not just a handful of kids at a single school now; it's non-stop through literally all their social connections, including online. The magnitude of it is just so much more than it was before.

Kids are in distress, and it's ending one of two ways. They are killing themselves (with horrifying frequency), or they're killing others in events like these.

We need better gun control. We need to remove civilian access to military grade weapons.

We need to more faithfully follow through on procedural safety measures without fail to keep our kids safe.

We all need to do our parts to adopt a zero-tolerance approach to bullying.

We need to accept that we sometimes have to make unpopular choices for the good of our kids....to limit their screen time, to reinforce expectations simultaneously with acceptance and love. We need to ourselves live the same values we expect our kids to embrace.

 

[Obscura]

I'm all for sensible gun control, but I and my family are also pro-(responsible) gun ownership, being from military families.

Living in the states and buying into neither the red nor blue, here is my take: it is more about the mental health and culture of the US that is the problem... and social media.

The states with the strictest gun control laws still have horribly high gun homicide rates. Why? Obviously it's not enough, guns are (unlike other countries) so inundated its impossible to get them all.

Now I do agree with sensible gun laws. Week+ long wait period, full background checks, mandatory training for anything other than a pistol or shotgun, etc.

We also have to contend with the cartel right across the border, no other country has to contend with that. Large organized gangs roam most city streets.

We have a HUGE mental health problem. Social media has exacerbated that. We have parents that are more interested in their careers and their wants than their children, the collapse of family values and dynamics has died and it has caused issues. No sense of community. Health care is INSANELY expensive...

We have capitalism gone mad, corrupt lobbied governments that care about their own power and pockets than their actual job of SERVING the CITIZENS and doing what is best for the COUNTRY and not themselves.

We are so individualistic that there is no cohesion, no greater good. This is also why I HATE when people bring Japan into the gun control arguement. They never had many guns, AND their cohesion is better than most countries. Their culture is very conducive to it. (I am Japanese American, fyi.)

The entitlement of people have now-a-days coupled with the mental health crisis, lack of connection with other people, and lack of consequences is a dangerous catalyst which only gets worse with guns thrown into the mix. I highly suspect that even if we didn't have guns, they'd be using homemade bombs.

I don't think guns and gun ownership are the problem. This level of excessive gun violence is a symptom. Because we didn't have this issue 20-30 years ago. And we already had a high number of guns. Always have. Yet it hasn't been an issue until around 2000?

And I'll agree that gun LAWS need to be fixed, safety measures enforced with absolute diligence, but the bigger issue needs to be fixed as well or nothing will change.

I'll shut up now. Just very tired of all the extreme right AND left arguements. All it does is throw everyone at opposite ends and solves nothing, makes the other side dig in their heels more, or worse run farther in the other direction.

 

[Slickk]

I’m a teacher close to retirement. I’ve never seen the amount of disrespect and behavioral problems I’m seeing this year. The kids are not ok.
We could make lists of why…lockdown effects (isolation), bullying, gaming (especially violent), screen time, entitlement, lack of support (home and school), mental illness, absent/neglectful parents…
I am heartbroken to hear the timeline and the delay to respond. Last time we practiced a lockdown my students wouldn’t even stay quiet! They were giggling and fooling around while sheriffs were combing the building around us. Did they care? Nope! Consequences are also severely lacking.
I am counting the days until I can leave the profession I have loved. I’m tired.

 

[Obscura]

I’m a teacher close to retirement. I’ve never seen the amount of disrespect and behavioral problems I’m seeing this year. The kids are not ok.
We could make lists of why…lockdown effects (isolation), bullying, gaming (especially violent), screen time, entitlement, lack of support (home and school), mental illness, absent/neglectful parents…
I am heartbroken to hear the timeline and the delay to respond. Last time we practiced a lockdown my students wouldn’t even stay quiet! They were giggling and fooling around while sheriffs were combing the building around us. Did they care? Nope! Consequences are also severely lacking.
I am counting the days until I can leave the profession I have loved. I’m tired.

Exactly! I am sorry that as a teacher you are so disheartened. I sympathize, I worked at my daughter's school until a couple years ago. It was ugly. And it was a GOOD school! I was so disgusted with the parents. The staff is beyond amazing, we even put a few kids on a better path. But your right, the behavioral problems are through the roof. The distracted, distant, absent, and even helicopter "not MY kid, he does nothing wrong" parents are a major problem.

I had one parent we had to talk to have the NERVE to say "I just don't want to parent. I just don't have time." I wanted to slap her. He was in preschool! If this keeps going can you imagine what he will act like in high school?!

Oh and surprise. I'm a millennial. Lol.

 

[Lookinagain]

The states with the strictest gun control laws still have horribly high gun homicide rates. Why? Obviously it's not enough, guns are (unlike other countries) so inundated its impossible to get them all.

I was under the impression that states like Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New Jersey and others with strict gun laws had fewer gun homicides per capita. Maybe not fewer murders by other means and I'm not sure where suicide by gun fits in, but I've always heard that these states do have lower gun homicide rates. I poked around on the internet quickly but couldn't find anything that succinctly analyzed this so I'm curious if you had found something?

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

They do have lower rates.

Stats of the States - Homicide Mortality

www.cdc.gov

Stats of the States - Firearm Mortality

www.cdc.gov

 

[Obscura]

I said still have horribly high, not had the most. Do not misconstrue my words.

Chicago, Illinois, New York City, and Salinas and L.A., California come to mind. The numbers are all total by state, which don't give a completely accurate picture. It's not ONLY about gun laws. Take Arizona, the vast majority of the state is safe despite lax gun laws. However, it has Phoenix, a cartel hotspot and kidnapping capital which drive the rate up.

Chicago has it's own gun laws. Rhode Island, Vermont, and to a lesser extent New Jersey, are also all pretty high income compared to the rest of the country. Which is always a contributing factor.

 

[Jambalaya]

I had one parent we had to talk to have the NERVE to say "I just don't want to parent. I just don't have time." I wanted to slap her. He was in preschool! If this keeps going can you imagine what he will act like in high school?!

Jesus. I don't want to parent and don't have time, either. My solution was not to have kids!

I've heard parents say that they don't discipline their kids because they want their limited time with them to be fun. SO selfish and lazy. How are kids supposed to know good behavior from bad, if they don't learn it at home? They are doing their children a terrible, terrible disservice.

I'm really interested to know what your response was??

 

[Jambalaya]

I’m a teacher close to retirement. I’ve never seen the amount of disrespect and behavioral problems I’m seeing this year. The kids are not ok.

Wow. So interesting to read this. Poor kids. I wonder if parents became so tired and exhausted during lockdown what with trying to work and homeschool that the kids could get away with stuff, and their behavior has carried on into school?

 

[Jambalaya]

We have a HUGE mental health problem. Social media has exacerbated that. We have parents that are more interested in their careers and their wants than their children, the collapse of family values and dynamics has died and it has caused issues. No sense of community. Health care is INSANELY expensive...

The entitlement of people have now-a-days coupled with the mental health crisis, lack of connection with other people, and lack of consequences is a dangerous catalyst which only gets worse with guns thrown into the mix. I highly suspect that even if we didn't have guns, they'd be using homemade bombs.

Really interesting post, Obscura. I also suspect that they would be using homemade bombs if we didn't have guns.

I'm not sure about a lack of community...small-town America with tight-knit communities is still a thing...

I think excessive social media use is a big problem for youngsters.

 

[Calliecake]

Chicago, Illinois and Salinas, California come to mind. The numbers are all total by state. Chicago has it's own gun laws. Rhode Island, Vermont, and to a lesser extent New Jersey, are also all pretty high income compared to the rest of the country. Which is always a contributing factor.

@Obscura, Chicago does have strict gun laws but what doesn‘t get discussed a lot is in less than an hour from Chicago you can be in Indiana and buy any gun you want with no restrictions. You don’t need a permit, you don’t need a background check. It’s ridiculous. Many guns are bought in Indiana and used in Illinois. Would gun violence in Chicago go down if there wasn’t easy access to guns in Indiana? Probably

 

[Jambalaya]

I can't speak for all, but I can say that among me and my childhood friends, all our parents were quick to reprimand us and make sure we knew it was a Serious offense with swift consequences if we bullied other kids. I don't see that same urgency today.

It's absolutely true that school and parents don't do enough to stop bullying these days. I think young people are disciplined less by their parents and teachers overall. (By discipline I mean consequences like privileges being withdrawn - I'm no advocating spanking.)

I've heard many parents talk about how their school couldn't stop the bullying, and often the parent has to move the child to a different school. Bullying IS a serious problem, especially as there are so many more ways to bully now, with social media.

 

[Jambalaya]

Another factor: School shooters are almost always very young, white males.

Why?

What goes so wrong in the minds of these very young men that makes them want to do the unthinkable? I suspect exposure to the dark corners of the internet is a big part of it, and also isolation. If teachers/parents notice that a young man in their home or class is becoming withdrawn and isolated, I think they should make strong efforts to connect him to school life again. I think isolation is a huge risk factor.