banning

[risingsun]

So what do you pros recommend that a parent do with a grown child who has not yet found the right combination of help for an anxiety disorder and probably bipolar who abuses substances (on occasion) to self-medicate? Do you throw them out to let them completely self-destruct or do you continue trying to find different help? I do no want to be an enabler, but it is hard to kick out a grown kid who is SICK when they have absolutely nowhere to go but a homeless shelter????

diamondseeker-

I had not been following this thread. I want to say that at some point I want to talk to you on the phone. My daughter and your son seem to have a lot in common, with the exception that my daughter doesn't use alcohol or drugs. She has tried them a few times, but (thank God), she doesn't like them. She does not, however, get relief from medication from her psychological problems. Now that she is 18 my husband is refusing to pay her expenses and has initiated divorce proceedings against me, saying I should put her in the street, which I will not do. Whether there is an end in sight, though, I do not know!

Deb

I am so sorry to hear this, Deb. Does your husband not understand that she is in treatment for a medical disorder. Here we have a young woman who is trying to make treatment work and is being undermined my her own father. Words cannot express my feelings adequately in this setting.

 

[Arkteia]

Diamondseeker - wish you and your son all the best! I hope that Seroquel works. Good that he is open to treatment.

I think I am lucky and spoiled. I know two terrific CD counselors to whom I refer my patients. The most difficult thing is to overcome the initial resistance which I think is due to fear of being judged. Once they go, they stick with these counselors. One of them laughs that I single-handedly filled his practice shortly after he opened it! So many people need help. Diamondseeker, I wish your son to end up with a very good CD counselor and equally good psychiatrist once your kid gets discharged.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Deb, we certainly do have a lot in common. My son also slowly went off his SSRI's, including Effexor, because he didn't like the way they made him feel. He was on them with Lithium because that was an affordable choice since he is 28 and didn't have health insurance. As you know, drugs like Seroquel are hundreds of dollars a month. The Lithium alone made him a little agitated, so he needed an SSRI to go with it, But he tried so many and couldn't deal with them. I just don't think they were what his brain needed. I have a pretty busy day but will try to email you later.

Crasru, thanks. He has always been open to help but we just haven't been fortunate enough to access the most knowledgeable people yet, and I think that has been part of the problem. A lot of people can counsel you to stop doing something, but if they don't understand the effects on the brain, it is almost worthless. I am also thinking that in a few days, if we finish this conversation, that I might ask if you'd consider having this thread deleted since Deb and I are sharing so much very personal information. It's okay if you don't. I think it is good for us to have a chance to talk some. But I also think that maybe it shouldn't be preserved forever. I am banking on the fact that most people are not following this thread at this point, and that is why I decided to post.

RS, gosh, I wish you were here.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

DS, you can always ask to have your posts deleted from this thread but there is no shame. I think you have shown courage to speak up about the struggles with your son. Gives hope to people who may not be as strong as you are. I second Risingsun though. What are you doing for YOU? You mentioned support groups for your son but addiction and mental illness does not happen in a vacuum. Your entire family deserves to have support. There are MANY people who are dealing with the EXACT same thing you are. How comforting not to be so unique. Just think about it.

Deb, I am so sorry to hear about your daughter. I can only imagine what it is like to have a sick child. I know she is your world and I am sure this is tearing your heart out.

 

[risingsun]

Deb, we certainly do have a lot in common. My son also slowly went off his SSRI's, including Effexor, because he didn't like the way they made him feel. He was on them with Lithium because that was an affordable choice since he is 28 and didn't have health insurance. As you know, drugs like Seroquel are hundreds of dollars a month. The Lithium alone made him a little agitated, so he needed an SSRI to go with it, But he tried so many and couldn't deal with them. I just don't think they were what his brain needed. I have a pretty busy day but will try to email you later.

Crasru, thanks. He has always been open to help but we just haven't been fortunate enough to access the most knowledgeable people yet, and I think that has been part of the problem. A lot of people can counsel you to stop doing something, but if they don't understand the effects on the brain, it is almost worthless. I am also thinking that in a few days, if we finish this conversation, that I might ask if you'd consider having this thread deleted since Deb and I are sharing so much very personal information. It's okay if you don't. I think it is good for us to have a chance to talk some. But I also think that maybe it shouldn't be preserved forever. I am banking on the fact that most people are not following this thread at this point, and that is why I decided to post.

RS, gosh, I wish you were here.

Where I differ from Crasu is that I refer to a psychiatrist for meds management only. If I believe that a client needs a more intensive level of care than individual counseling, I will refer to either intensive outpatient or inpatient care. At the end of the program, the client returns to me for individual counseling. I believe that the continuum of care is vital in recovery. I am in favor of counselors being able to work with both mental health and substance dependency issues, as most SD clients are dually diagnosed. This divide has been, IMO, a detriment to the field. If you ever want to talk, Tacori knows how to get in touch with me.

 

[AGBF]

My son also slowly went off his SSRI's, including Effexor, because he didn't like the way they made him feel. He was on them with Lithium because that was an affordable choice since he is 28 and didn't have health insurance. As you know, drugs like Seroquel are hundreds of dollars a month. The Lithium alone made him a little agitated, so he needed an SSRI to go with it, But he tried so many and couldn't deal with them. I just don't think they were what his brain needed.

I am so sorry that you have the added complication of insurance coverage to worry about. As you probably know, Effexor is actually an SNRI, and when it worked on my daughter I wondered if that was why it had worked. But there's no way to know. The regular psychiatrists who had treated her hadn't tried it. After a suicide attempt and a hospitalization she went to a day treatment program in Virginia and a psychiatrist there who worked with the adolescents in the day treatment program decided to try her on Effexor. It was the first medication that seemed to make any difference, but one has to remember that she was always on that low dose of Seroquel, which has anti-psychotic properties. It is just weird that Effexor, contraindicated for people with bi-polar disorder works like a charm on her...unless she is not bi-polar. No one ever placed the label on her; they just tried all the meds for bi-polar illness on her!!!

Deb/AGBF

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Tacori, I think because of having expertise in another area (dyslexia), I understand that so few people, including teachers (!) understand reading disorders. Very well meaning people often do not know what they are doing nor do they have a clue how to fix the problem appropriately. So while it may give me support to talk to another parent like Deb who understands, my desire is to really talk to an expert in the field who can help me understand what we can do to best help him. I think that's why I finally spoke on this thread, because I see some of you really do have expertise in this field and that is what I need most. Finding it around my area is another matter. But you have helped me to know what to look for.

He called a little while ago to say he may be released today. According to him, they think that the lack of appropriate treatment for the bipolar is his primary problem. They have him set up with appointments for psychiatrists and counseling, also. I'll find out more later.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I am so sorry that you have the added complication of insurance coverage to worry about. As you probably know, Effexor is actually an SNRI, and when it worked on my daughter I wondered if that was why it had worked. But there's no way to know. The regular psychiatrists who had treated her hadn't tried it. After a suicide attempt and a hospitalization she went to a day treatment program in Virginia and a psychiatrist there who worked with the adolescents in the day treatment program decided to try her on Effexor. It was the first medication that seemed to make any difference, but one has to remember that she was always on that low dose of Seroquel, which has anti-psychotic properties. It is just weird that Effexor, contraindicated for people with bi-polar disorder works like a charm on her...unless she is not bi-polar. No one ever placed the label on her; they just tried all the meds for bi-polar illness on her!!!

Deb/AGBF

Well, what I was going to tell you in email is that he, on his own (I knew nothing about it), applied online for SSI (Supplemental Security Income) which comes with Medicaid. He was rejected the first time, and we read on the internet that almost everyone is rejected the first time and most the second time, but if you persist and really deserve it, you will probably get it the third time. I think he applied in the late fall and he got the approval in May (on the second try). The back paid him for the months that they rejected his application. They can get a few hundred a month to help with living and medical expenses, but it is not nearly enough to allow them to support themselves. But the BIG thing is getting the Medicaid to help with the medical expenses. Since he just got that a couple of weeks ago, I have no idea how it will help with meds, but I think it will. My son took effexor before the bi-polar diagnosis. So many of the symptoms overlap that he has been tentatively diagnosed with a lot of things, but I have come to the conclusion that he always had bi-polar symptoms. Some of the social anxiety probably has to do with some bullying and abuse he suffered at school (which I never knew at the time). He has tried zoloft, celexa, paxil, etc. I just think serotonin is not his problem area because it did not make any difference other than the temporary optimism with trying something new. I do think meds are really trial and error. One giant experiment.

 

[AGBF]

So while it may give me support to talk to another parent like Deb who understands, my desire is to really talk to an expert in the field who can help me understand what we can do to best help him. I think that's why I finally spoke on this thread, because I see some of you really do have expertise in this field and that is what I need most. Finding it around my area is another matter. But you have helped me to know what to look for.

He called a little while ago to say he may be released today. According to him, they think that the lack of appropriate treatment for the bipolar is his primary problem. They have him set up with appointments for psychiatrists and counseling, also. I'll find out more later.

You made some really good points in this posting, diamondseeker. While alcoholics and drug addicts are capable of very self-destructive and generally destructive behavior and can engage in acts that look "crazy" to an impartial observer while using, if they sober up, they can become "sane". (The more sobriety they gain, they more sane their actions.) If someone suffers "only" from alcoholism or drug addiction (and I have yet to meet one who didn't have emotional problems of some sort, so it is never this simple), he may just need a rehab program and AA (or NA).

On the other hand, there are many mentally ill people medicate their mental illnesses with drugs and alcohol to get relief from their symptoms. These people cannot get well, cannot become sane, simply by saying "no" to drugs.

The problem is that to know if someone is mentally ill or simply an addict or alcoholic, one must get him off alcohol and illegal/unprescribed drugs. Sometimes this can only be done in a hospital setting.

Presumably if your son is leaving a hospital, he is detoxed. The doctors have seen him without alcohol or mind-altering substances in his system. They feel that, without drugs and alcohol to affect his thinking, he is still "off". In other words, it is not just drugs and alcohol that make him seem unbalanced as can be the case with addicts and alcoholics. Your son is mentally ill. He deserves the help and support of the systems that are in place to aid the mentally ill, including the Social Security Administration. He should apply for SSI and SSDI with the Social Security Administration the day he leaves the hospital if he is unable to work and for Meidcaid if he doesn't have health insurance. I don't know the details of his life, but he has the right to be treated as someone with an illness.

I hope we can "talk" via e-mail (and then maybe phone)!

Deb


PS-I am a social worker by trade. My last full-time social work job before adopting my daughter was working with de-institutionalized mental patients, mainly manic depressives and schizophrenics, helping them to settle in the community after being in psychiatric hospitals.

PPS-Social security is always denied the first time. Expect that and just re-apply.

 

[AGBF]

I am so sorry that you have the added complication of insurance coverage to worry about. As you probably know, Effexor is actually an SNRI, and when it worked on my daughter I wondered if that was why it had worked. But there's no way to know. The regular psychiatrists who had treated her hadn't tried it. After a suicide attempt and a hospitalization she went to a day treatment program in Virginia and a psychiatrist there who worked with the adolescents in the day treatment program decided to try her on Effexor. It was the first medication that seemed to make any difference, but one has to remember that she was always on that low dose of Seroquel, which has anti-psychotic properties. It is just weird that Effexor, contraindicated for people with bi-polar disorder works like a charm on her...unless she is not bi-polar. No one ever placed the label on her; they just tried all the meds for bi-polar illness on her!!!

Well, what I was going to tell you in email is that he, on his own (I knew nothing about it), applied online for SSI (Supplemental Security Income) which comes with Medicaid. He was rejected the first time, and we read on the internet that almost everyone is rejected the first time and most the second time, but if you persist and really deserve it, you will probably get it the third time. I think he applied in the late fall and he got the approval in May (on the second try). The back paid him for the months that they rejected his application. They can get a few hundred a month to help with living and medical expenses, but it is not nearly enough to allow them to support themselves. But the BIG thing is getting the Medicaid to help with the medical expenses. Since he just got that a couple of weeks ago, I have no idea how it will help with meds, but I think it will. My son took effexor before the bi-polar diagnosis. So many of the symptoms overlap that he has been tentatively diagnosed with a lot of things, but I have come to the conclusion that he always had bi-polar symptoms. Some of the social anxiety probably has to do with some bullying and abuse he suffered at school (which I never knew at the time). He has tried zoloft, celexa, paxil, etc. I just think serotonin is not his problem area because it did not make any difference other than the temporary optimism with trying something new. I do think meds are really trial and error. One giant experiment.

I was typing away while you posted this!!! You told me everything I was telling you. Got it!!!

Hugs,
Deb

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Goodness, well I hit the jackpot with people who understand these issues!!! Deb,that is so funny you told me exactly what I was telling you regarding the SSI! I'd say he hasn't had alcohol more than a few beers maybe 3 times in the last year. He just falls hard when he falls. The year before that he did well for months and then went into decline. So I see him struggle due to the mental issues for months at a time before he resorts back to a substance to help him make it. He just gets crazy with alcohol combined with whatever meds he is taking at the time. He had very little alcohol the day he went to the hospital but it scared me so we forced him to go. Detox probably wasn't really needed, but it did accomplish getting a psychiatrist to look at him and assess his meds. And now he says he has follow-up appointments made. The doctor told him that this is what he has needed. He said he is actually sleeping through the night which was something that was never consistent before.

It is really good to talk to people who have personal understanding as well as a professional background. {{{hugs}} back to you, Deb!

 

[AGBF]

Deb, I am so sorry to hear about your daughter. I can only imagine what it is like to have a sick child. I know she is your world and I am sure this is tearing your heart out.

Thanks, Tacori. Thanks, Marian and Isabel, too! I appreciate your words of concern and support for me. I got so involved in dialogue with diamondseeker, that I didn't tell you I really appreciated your kindness!

Deb

 

[risingsun]

Deb, I am so sorry to hear about your daughter. I can only imagine what it is like to have a sick child. I know she is your world and I am sure this is tearing your heart out.

Thanks, Tacori. Thanks, Marian and Isabel, too! I appreciate your words of concern and support for me. I got so involved in dialogue with diamondseeker, that I didn't tell you I really appreciated your kindness!

Deb

You are very welcome, Deb. If there is anything I can do, please let me know. I'm sure the others feel the same.

 

[Arkteia]

Deb, we certainly do have a lot in common. My son also slowly went off his SSRI's, including Effexor, because he didn't like the way they made him feel. He was on them with Lithium because that was an affordable choice since he is 28 and didn't have health insurance. As you know, drugs like Seroquel are hundreds of dollars a month. The Lithium alone made him a little agitated, so he needed an SSRI to go with it, But he tried so many and couldn't deal with them. I just don't think they were what his brain needed. I have a pretty busy day but will try to email you later.

Crasru, thanks. He has always been open to help but we just haven't been fortunate enough to access the most knowledgeable people yet, and I think that has been part of the problem. A lot of people can counsel you to stop doing something, but if they don't understand the effects on the brain, it is almost worthless. I am also thinking that in a few days, if we finish this conversation, that I might ask if you'd consider having this thread deleted since Deb and I are sharing so much very personal information. It's okay if you don't. I think it is good for us to have a chance to talk some. But I also think that maybe it shouldn't be preserved forever. I am banking on the fact that most people are not following this thread at this point, and that is why I decided to post.

RS, gosh, I wish you were here.

Where I differ from Crasu is that I refer to a psychiatrist for meds management only. If I believe that a client needs a more intensive level of care than individual counseling, I will refer to either intensive outpatient or inpatient care. At the end of the program, the client returns to me for individual counseling. I believe that the continuum of care is vital in recovery. I am in favor of counselors being able to work with both mental health and substance dependency issues, as most SD clients are dually diagnosed. This divide has been, IMO, a detriment to the field. If you ever want to talk, Tacori knows how to get in touch with me.

Here is what a coworker of mine, a therapist and a CD therapist, sent me today. He works for this program at King 5 and is mentioned in the article. I think it is interesting.

http://www.king5.com/health/childrens-healthlink/New-mental-health-program-helps-local-teens-get-back-on-track-124042554.html

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Of course Deb!

DS, I got some names of some duel diagnosis treatment centers (hopefully) close to you. I will e-mail them to you.