Big News: AGS merging with GIA

[denverappraiser]

Yes, it’s too optimistic. AGSL is going out of business. AGS is recovering some semblance of value on all the money they’ve invested by licensing with GIA. GIA is dancing on their grave.

 

[MissGotRocks]

I think this is good for consumers in that if this works the way I think it will, it will have the effect of segmenting the overly broad GIA Ex category and highlighting those stones in the sweet spot. Which will mitigate the complaints about the system as being too broad and forgiving.

It may even have the effect of encouraging more cutters to aim for the center instead of the margins.

GIA's reach could enable the AGS Light Performance system to finally penetrate more deeply.

It may also be a quantum leap into cut grading of fancies which GIA has long said was coming. But a 2D parameter based system was never going to be practical.

Too optimistic??

I hope you are correct in your optimism as it will be the only system to use for many of us. I can’t help but wonder about the impact on the many already GIA graded stones that have received the excellent cut grade. Good for color/clarity but with no reason for many to resubmit for light performance as they wouldn’t receive that ideal grade. I wonder how that will affect pricing? Guess this will all take some time to sort out and we will wait to see how it settles.

 

[denverappraiser]

I wonder if you'll be able to get the supplemental AGS light performance report on GIA stones graded before 2023. It's purely based on the Sarine scans now, and GIA has been doing and saving those scans since at least 2006. There's quite a bit of potential revenue out there for this.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I wonder if you'll be able to get the supplemental AGS light performance report on GIA stones graded before 2023. It's purely based on the Sarine scans now, and GIA has been doing and saving those scans since at least 2006. There's quite a bit of potential revenue out there for this.

Good question. And good point.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Yes, it’s too optimistic. AGSL is going out of business. AGS is recovering some semblance of value on all the money they’ve invested by licensing with GIA. GIA is dancing on their grave.

For the record, I am NOT happy that AGSL is closing down. Primarily for the people who will be losing their jobs. It is also going to be a hardship for our business as we transition to a new normal. But I think it has the potential to be very good for consumers. If GIA puts what AGSL has developed to good purposes it will be.

 

[Patty]

Wow, this will be so interesting! I can see a company like Whiteflash automatically adding the AGS cut grade to their certs, but will Blue Nile and James Allen and other vendors? For years, your average consumer has assumed that GIA excellent is just that…excellent. I hope that more consumers learn about the importance of cut and insist on the extra AGS cut grade report.

It will be nice to see no more of the “AGS is soft on color” comments!

 

[MissGotRocks]

For the record, I am NOT happy that AGSL is closing down. Primarily for the people who will be losing their jobs. It is also going to be a hardship for our business as we transition to a new normal. But I think it has the potential to be very good for consumers. If GIA puts what AGSL has developed to good purposes it will be.

As if the diamond scene needed any more to deal with now! COVID, war, inflation and now this! A new normal for sure but we are blessed to have good, transparent vendors here to help us navigate the waters!!

 

[distracts]

Wow, this will be so interesting! I can see a company like Whiteflash automatically adding the AGS cut grade to their certs, but will Blue Nile and James Allen and other vendors? For years, your average consumer has assumed that GIA excellent is just that…excellent. I hope that more consumers learn about the importance of cut and insist on the extra AGS cut grade report.

It will be nice to see no more of the “AGS is soft on color” comments!

I would think for things like the James Allen "True Hearts" and Blue Nile "Astor Ideal," they would want to have the extra cut grading to prove that they are that top-tier that they are claiming. Same with anywhere else that has pulled out a category of diamond they seem to be claiming can compete with the super-ideals.

 

[Rfisher]

I wonder if you'll be able to get the supplemental AGS light performance report on GIA stones graded before 2023. It's purely based on the Sarine scans now, and GIA has been doing and saving those scans since at least 2006. There's quite a bit of potential revenue out there for this.

Isn’t that a can o’worms tho?
going off of a scan years ago on a stone thats been worn/ handled (also for likely years)?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I wonder if you'll be able to get the supplemental AGS light performance report on GIA stones graded before 2023. It's purely based on the Sarine scans now, and GIA has been doing and saving those scans since at least 2006. There's quite a bit of potential revenue out there for this.

Neil have you been eating razor blades today? You wit is even sharper than usual.
I think AGS ownership could never allow the lab to cut free and grow.
I wonder what GIA will do with ASET scopes as I believe the lab was the sales side (All though I get paid directly from AGS not AGSL).

 

[Karl_K]

My opinion,
I think its a bad thing there will only be one viable tier 1 mass market US lab for both the trade and consumers.
gcal is tiny and there is problem convincing an insurance adjuster an gcal 8x is better than the cheapest GIA EX they can find. MMD its far less of an issue due to the lower $$$ amounts involved.
IGI is ok for mmd(lower $$) but is not at the level to fill the hole AGSL leaves behind.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I tend to be optimistic like Bryan @Texas Leaguer . GIA is THE most recognized diamond lab, and for them to offer light return imaging on stones that are ideal cut, how can that be a bad thing? All the other stones will be GIA graded as usual. Those who specifically want superideal cuts will buy from vendors who specialize in them and do their own imaging in addition to what the lab report provides, anyway.

Someone said above that it might result in some of the big diamond vendors getting the light return images on their in-house "ideal cut" stones. I think that would be a bonus for those who shop there.

I think the downside for those of us who already have AGS graded diamonds is that we'd have a potential problem selling down the road since AGS labs will no longer exist. It would be a huge hassle to get them regraded.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Bryan, do you know if GIA will use the other two Zero's? i.e. Ideal Symmetry and Polish?
Simply having GIA's symmetry standard would be a loss?

 

[distracts]

What people on other forums are talking about is if GIA will phase out the light performance add-on after several years. I hope not, but other people who don't think light performance matters are predicting it will happen. However I suspect another lab (GCAL might be best positioned for this?) would then gain whatever small market share IS interested in that.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

What people on other forums are talking about is if GIA will phase out the light performance add-on after several years. I hope not, but other people who don't think light performance matters are predicting it will happen. However I suspect another lab (GCAL might be best positioned for this?) would then gain whatever small market share IS interested in that.

Nonsense to them all distracts. GIA can charge $25 for not one bit of work. All totally automated.
Expect to see many more GIA AGS LP diamonds.
Only issue I see is the symmetry problem re my previous post.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

What people on other forums are talking about is if GIA will phase out the light performance add-on after several years. I hope not, but other people who don't think light performance matters are predicting it will happen. However I suspect another lab (GCAL might be best positioned for this?) would then gain whatever small market share IS interested in that.

I doubt that would happen, but it wouldn't make that much difference to me. When you look at big vendors like BN, JA, etc, they don't carry many AGS stones anyway. Vendors such as Whiteflash and Victor Canera provide their own actual light return images that are more meaningful to me than a computer generated one on an AGS report. So I really don't care if a superideal vendor has their stones GIA graded if they continue to provide the ASET, hearts, and idealscope images.

 

[DRSAMURAI]

Paul Hung, Founder of JannPaul, as a patented diamond cut designer of the White Series, patented lab diamond process grower and diamond vender sees the AGS-GIA merger as strategic maneuver to adapt to changing competitive market forces. Here is how he reads the tea leaves and gives us more to digest:

AGS is merging with GIA, it's a move against IGI basically.

so for all existing cuts already in the system, e.g our ws line will have a GIA cert, together along with an AGS light performance report only, so as of now, the main cert will be under GIA and light performance will only (for now) for certain companies who has had really strong cuts like our white series line, will continue to be provided with a supplementary ideal cut light performance grade labelled with AGS, so aset and everything. But new cuts wont and certain vendors who has had worked with them won't, I think I can openly say now why i'm working with GCAL 8x.

with regards to many 3 EX graded will be downgraded, you mean a wider parameter? As of now, GIA wants to combine AGS's research to create new possibilities. But to me really, and people in the industry is that we know it's a move against IGI.

Everything was discussed this year, nothing concrete is set in stone, but basically they want to use AGS's research to incorporate into the GIA system ( that's the idea, but nothing set in stone, as the AGS team hasn't even moved into the gia research department yet)

oh and, it's also a move to improve fancies (as fancy shaped diamonds demand won't be going anywhere soon in fact it's going to continue to rise) using ags tech, but this wont be in the very near future.
all in all, AGS will function as their research team under GIA. That's all that i'm allowed to say for now.

So no one, not even anyone in GIA or AGS can say that in the future it would be for the better or for the worse.

All I can say that is, the more labs you have, the more variances you have in grading, and to fight against IGI by mass, you either have more transparency, or lower your standards and costs against IGI.
that's 2 things they'd have to tackle.

I do have a meeting with them tomorrow, but yup. if it's on pricescope you can quote me on this since this is out and open already.

See More from

 

[yssie]

IGI has a sterling reputation in many parts of the world.

Let’s all also keep in mind that the diamond industry is pretty small, people-wise.


Edit - I’ve asked the mods to remove all my other posts in this thread, and I’ve un-reacted to everything I reacted to. So if you see that I did and then didn’t that’s why.

 

[Andy Tan]

@Garry H (Cut Nut) paul from jannpaul has spoken very highly of you in my direct conversation with him, he said you and wink inspired his work 20 years ago and he regards you as his mentor

 

[headlight]

My head is spinning.
So how is this going to work?… all the 3x stones (like those so often rejected here) can get the additional report that will reveal the stone is not excellent after all.
So 3x will officially mean nothing (not just here in PS).
Is this the only way GIA can save face and move into the future and beyond their flawed cut grading system?
I just don’t understand what will happen when the crappy 3x stones get the additional reports that reveals the stone is not excellent at all.
Will this be available only to stones going in for grading?… or can you order the extra report for stones that already have a GIA report?

 

[headlight]

I hope you are correct in your optimism as it will be the only system to use for many of us. I can’t help but wonder about the impact on the many already GIA graded stones that have received the excellent cut grade. Good for color/clarity but with no reason for many to resubmit for light performance as they wouldn’t receive that ideal grade. I wonder how that will affect pricing? Guess this will all take some time to sort out and we will wait to see how it settles.

Exactly what I was thinking. But I suppose ultimately it will be the same as it is now… the stones with excellent light performance reports command the higher value.

I wonder if you'll be able to get the supplemental AGS light performance report on GIA stones graded before 2023. It's purely based on the Sarine scans now, and GIA has been doing and saving those scans since at least 2006. There's quite a bit of potential revenue out there for this.

I was wondering about this - I don’t want to have to unmount my stone to get the additional report (which, btw, will all be digital).

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

@Garry H (Cut Nut) paul from jannpaul has spoken very highly of you in my direct conversation with him, he said you and wink inspired his work 20 years ago and he regards you as his mentor

Thanks. Paul has done good things. Hard working innovative guy!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Always Look On The Bright Side Of Life, da da da daadada.

This can improve round diamond cut quality because the AGS 0 standard (that I agree with 80% vs GIA X 20%) may well be applied to 100 times more diamonds than they ever could as the tiny lab in Vegas.
An added premium can change what manufacturers decide to cut.

You can have a XXX or an XOXX

(Or an XXX0 or an 0XXX)

 

[Phoenix]

Forgive me if this has been addressed elsewhere. I scanned the thread but didn't see it.

What will happen to those diamonds that were previously graded by AGS? Will they need to be re-graded by GIA? (which would mean re-submission, costs etc). And what if GIA grades the diamonds less favourably compared to how they were graded by AGS?

 

[denverappraiser]

I wonder if the light performance report will be available separately to consumers, appraisers, or really anyone other than the original client. That is to say, if a stone already has lab papers and the consumer wants more infi, which they will, can they get it without submitting the stone gain. Will they say if someone else already bought that service on that stone before? They won’t on their other services. That makes $25 the camels nose for a giant revenue stream. They can collect that same $25 fee a hundred times on the same stone as it goes through the selling and appraising process. All with no humans involved.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I was wondering about this - I don’t want to have to unmount my stone to get the additional report (which, btw, will all be digital).

GIA recently announced that they are going to all digital reports starting in January with dossiers. I believe they will stop issuing paper reports altogether by the end of next year.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Always Look On The Bright Side Of Life, da da da daadada.

This can improve round diamond cut quality because the AGS 0 standard (that I agree with 80% vs GIA X 20%) may well be applied to 100 times more diamonds than they ever could as the tiny lab in Vegas.
An added premium can change what manufacturers decide to cut.

You can have a XXX or an XOXX

(Or an XXX0 or an 0XXX)

Let's call them X0X0X0's

Hearts and Arrows 2.0 = Hugs and Kisses Diamonds!

A mere Triple X is just a hug without a kiss

Take that Kay Jewelers!

 

[ame]

I am not as excited about this as I would like to be. I don't trust GIA cut grading one iota, and I feel like this is basically GIA doing away with the competition, because it calls that to the carpet, and if you eliminate the better cut grading system, you can still get away with crappy cut grading

 

[diamondseeker2006]

My head is spinning.
So how is this going to work?… all the 3x stones (like those so often rejected here) can get the additional report that will reveal the stone is not excellent after all.
So 3x will officially mean nothing (not just here in PS).
Is this the only way GIA can save face and move into the future and beyond their flawed cut grading system?
I just don’t understand what will happen when the crappy 3x stones get the additional reports that reveals the stone is not excellent at all.
Will this be available only to stones going in for grading?… or can you order the extra report for stones that already have a GIA report?

Jewelers will never order the extra light return report on poorly cut stones. They will sell most GIA Ex cut stones with the exact same type of report they do now. Only the very best cut stones will have the added light return report to add value to them. As it is now, I don't even pay attention to the light return image on the AGS report. I look at the vendor actual light return images.

Not that I know anything whatsoever, but I cannot see how they could offer light return reports on stones graded in the past. Stones today wouldn't necessarily be in the same condition as when originally graded. To me, those computer generated images are not nearly as valuable as an actual ASET and Idealscope image anyway.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Jewelers will never order the extra light return report on poorly cut stones. They will sell most GIA Ex cut stones with the exact same type of report they do now. Only the very best cut stones will have the added light return report to add value to them. As it is now, I don't even pay attention to the light return image on the AGS report. I look at the vendor actual light return images.

Not that I know anything whatsoever, but I cannot see how they could offer light return reports on stones graded in the past. Stones today wouldn't necessarily be in the same condition as when originally graded. To me, those computer generated images are not nearly as valuable as an actual ASET and Idealscope image anyway.

@diamondseeker2006 ,
Normal wear and tear will have negligible effect on a diamond's geometry, even after many years of daily wear. If the stone is actually broken, then that's a separate issue altogether. Assuming the diamond is not in need of a re-cut, the original 3D scan will provide the data to run the AGS ray tracer and get an accurate light performance grade.

Light maps such as ASET are also quite accurate if the scan is good. We have featured both computer generated ASET (on the AGSL report) and our own in-house photo ASET for many years. We see a very high degree of alignment between those images. Certainly enough that both can be used to cross-validate one another.