Big News: AGS merging with GIA

[Texas Leaguer]

The official GIA press release is here:

AGS and GIA Advance Their Common Missions

Forging a significant new collaboration

www.gia.edu

*Note the line: "The combined research team will develop innovative products and services to improve how consumers and the trade understand and appreciate diamonds, including light performance research and a science-based fancy cut grade standard."

 

[Victor Canera]

W'e're not too thrilled about this change either. They mention that the basic Four Cs will be a part of the GIA lab report leaving only the light performance as the added report? It seems to me that this does away with the extremely tight Cut parameters that AGS pioneered and developed over the decades. What's to differentiate from a true precision cut diamond from a stone that just barely passes the hump of an Excellent Cut grade?
As a company that's worked very hard to maximize the cut of our diamonds, it seems to me, that we're being lumped with all the mediocre cut diamonds out there.
As far as the industry goes, this seems to de-incentivize producers from producing the very best cut diamonds out there.
Personally, I feel bad for all the people at AGS that I've gotten to know over the years. I hope they're able to integrate into GIA. They're a great group of people.

 

[distracts]

I'm glad to see that they will have the AGS light performance report for both natural and lab-created diamonds.

 

[Chas23]

I always loved AGS and it's bell & whistles (so-to-speak) but it comes as no surprise that they closed the lab. Over the years we've only sent diamonds to be certified if they were to in fact make the AGS Ideal grade. Generally only rounds and our speciality cuts (ie. brand name and tm cuts). No generic fancy shapes, no color diamonds (they didn't do them anyhow) and no lab growns (although they just started accepting them along with GIA). Needless to say, their draw for us was limited, only to a certain types of diamonds. Also too, they're all the way in Las Vegas and we're in NY so for us to certify something it requires an extra 2 shipping cost, wereas we could literally drop off diamonds at the GIA office in NY where we go twice a week already. That's a tremendous savings as well. We'll continue to be AGS members as always and wish their merger great success. Hopefully GIA will implement some of the best of what they offered and not just fade away. If not, maybe GCAL will fill that void and want for more deeper info from a grading co.

Charles, Good Old Gold, Inc.
wwww.goodoldgold.com

 

[Chas23]

I'm glad to see that they will have the AGS light performance report for both natural and lab-created diamonds.

Where did you see this information? On AGS' site? I didn't see it on GIA's site.

 

[distracts]

Where did you see this information? On AGS' site? I didn't see it on GIA's site.

On the press release @Texas Leaguer linked above - "the AGS Ideal® Report will be available from GIA as a digital-only supplement to GIA diamond reports for eligible D-to-Z natural and laboratory-grown round brilliant and fancy shape diamonds."

 

[oncrutchesrightnow]

Consumer wish list for grading reports:

1. Are the un-shown clouds benevolent or evil?
2. Does the fluorescence create a a pleasant glow-up or a nasty haze?
3. What is the undertone?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Consumer wish list for grading reports:

1. Are the un-shown clouds benevolent or evil?
2. Does the fluorescence create a a pleasant glow-up or a nasty haze?
3. What is the undertone?

Add internal graining and sometimes twinning.
GIA have the science to do this as published last year.
But will that devalue many existing diamonds, YES ?
I hope they do because it will raise the value of many nice diamonds (especially fluorescent stones).

 

[distracts]

Consumer wish list for grading reports:

1. Are the un-shown clouds benevolent or evil?
2. Does the fluorescence create a a pleasant glow-up or a nasty haze?
3. What is the undertone?

Add on to this for lab diamonds - does it have phosphorescence? Why don't reports show this?

 

[Wink]

Thanks. Paul has done good things. Hard working innovative guy!

I agree Garry. I have admired Paul greatly.

 

[Johnbt]

My crystal ball is cloudy. Just kidding, I don't own one.

I did just tell my wife we're selling her engagement ring with its 2018 "PRE-GIA AGS GRADING REPORT" for a very large markup. Avoid the merger/takeover confusion, "BUY NOW!!! AVOID THE RUSH TO BE A TRUE AGS REPORT COLLECTOR!!!"



Good thing I'm retired and too busy to really try to start a fad.

 

[Wink]

Good thing I'm retired and too busy to really try to start a fad.

Not to worry, I am pretty sure those of us with pre-Gia AGS reports will not be raising our prices on them.

It will be interesting to see how the market reacts in the next year or two. The big cutters will be pushing for relaxing of standards to achieve the coveted AGS 0 cut grade. It is my fervent hope that GIA will not destroy the confidence the knowledgeable public has in the AGS triple 0 reports. If they do, they will be assisting IGI's growth in the US, rather than hurting it. If they do, I will be cheering on both IGI and GCal.

Just my opinion, but those who discount IGI's ability to grow hugely in the US are grossly under estimating the John Pollard effect.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

My crystal ball is cloudy. Just kidding, I don't own one.

I did just tell my wife we're selling her engagement ring with its 2018 "PRE-GIA AGS GRADING REPORT" for a very large markup. Avoid the merger/takeover confusion, "BUY NOW!!! AVOID THE RUSH TO BE A TRUE AGS REPORT COLLECTOR!!!"



Good thing I'm retired and too busy to really try to start a fad.

I would wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment but the moderators might frown on it. So I will stay quiet.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Yes, it’s too optimistic. AGSL is going out of business. AGS is recovering some semblance of value on all the money they’ve invested by licensing with GIA. GIA is dancing on their grave.

I don't see it that way. It's a smart and bold move for GIA - and highly logical. The technology and the talent that they are acquiring will enable them to make real progress in the area of cut quality R&D. GIA has been behind in this critical area of diamond analysis. With their resources and reach, adding the AGS piece will be a quantum leap into the future for GIA.

Brilliant move in my opinion. (no pun intended of course )

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I am not as excited about this as I would like to be. I don't trust GIA cut grading one iota, and I feel like this is basically GIA doing away with the competition, because it calls that to the carpet, and if you eliminate the better cut grading system, you can still get away with crappy cut grading

I don't think you have to worry about that. GIA's acquisition of AGSL is going to be additive. It will enable them to take cut quality analysis to a whole new level.

They are not shutting down the competition. They are essentially doing the opposite- promoting AGS Ideal, which is somewhat of a bold move if you think about it.

GIA would not be doing that if they did not intend to move forward down the path that AGS has blazed.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

GIA has been behind in this critical area of diamond analysis.
Brilliant move in my opinion. (no pun intended of course )

Geochemists don't understand optics or math.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I would think for things like the James Allen "True Hearts" and Blue Nile "Astor Ideal," they would want to have the extra cut grading to prove that they are that top-tier that they are claiming. Same with anywhere else that has pulled out a category of diamond they seem to be claiming can compete with the super-ideals.

Good point. I think there will be demand for the addendum reports among ALL sellers of precision cut diamonds. This includes the merchants who are offering Ideal fancies like princess, oval, emerald and certain cushion cuts. And it will provide wider based incentive for other cutters and merchants to offer elite cut quality. GIA's decision to make the add-on AGS report inexpensive ($25) will make it a no-brainer for those businesses to adopt it.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Geochemists don't understand optics or math.

Sometimes smart people need other smart people with different strengths in order to become their best selves.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Dang, this does suck... I liked the extra digital ASET detail that AGS provided. I know some folks (probably not those on PS lol) think ASET is baloney. But I wonder if after this merger GIA will start to do the extra bells and whistles that AGS was doing around documenting light return.

It'd suck if GIA was simply buying AGS' book of business and shutting them down to erase competition without bettering their own certification process.

The ASET light map will continue to be an option on the new AGS Ideal add-on report.

GIA did not acquire AGSL to shut it down. Just the opposite really. The two organizations have always been highly collaborative, and this is a move based on the strong synergies between them.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

The ASET light map will continue to be an option on the new AGS Ideal add-on report.

GIA did not acquire AGSL to shut it down. Just the opposite really. The two organizations have always been highly collaborative, and this is a move based on the strong synergies between them.

For a very long time the two Yantzer brothrs were head honcho's or senior people in both labs!

 

[Texas Leaguer]

For a very long time the two Yantzer brothrs were head honcho's or senior people in both labs!

Peter Yantzer retired from AGSl after running the show there through development of the AGS Light Performance system and beyond. Phil Yantzer is still at GIA running a bunch of their labs. I did not know Peter or Phil at the time but their brother John happened to be one of my first instructors at GIA back in the 1970's!

Quite the gemological family!

 

[Wink]

GIA would not be doing that if they did not intend to move forward down the path that AGS has blazed.

I sincerely hope you are correct Texas Leaguer. If you are, it will be to both the industry's and the public's best interests.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I sincerely hope you are correct Texas Leaguer. If you are, it will be to both the industry's and the public's best interests.

Indeed Wink. And I believe we will see exactly that long term.

It's a tumultuous time for us, but an exciting one too.

 

[Wink]

John happened to be one of my first instructors at GIA back in the 1970's!

When were you there Texas Leaguer? My wife and I graduated in November 1975. I did not have John for any of my classes and do not remember him being there at the time. I am thinking he may have come to GIA after I graduated.

I got to know Peter well during the cut wars when the AGS team got together with some very brilliant people and created the cut grading system still in use today. Peter wanted to take it so much further and had some very brilliant ideas on things that could be added to the reports. Peter hosted a couple of cut grade band camps before JCK and when you get so many bright people together at his house, the conversations got very deep. (And sometimes very boisterous.)

 

[Wink]

Indeed Wink. And I believe we will see exactly that long term.

It's a tumultuous time for us, but an exciting one too.

I entered the industry in 1971, when I lived in Rio de Janeiro. Since then, I am thinking perhaps 70% - 80% of those years have been tumultuous in one way or another. Take the investment craze. In 1975, while I was studying at GIA I was told that a 1 carat D-IF was stupidly expensive at $4,000 a carat. By February of 1980 the same stone peaked at $65,000 per carat between dealers in the New York Bourse and by June 1980 it was listed at $16,000 per carat but they could be had for 9,000 if you had cash in hand. (Gold and Silver were insane during those years too.)

A few years later along came the Internet and I believe it was in 1992 that commerce was legalized and our worlds changed, infinitely for the better, but with great turmoil in the trade.

Throw in the cut wars, grading scandals, EGL being banned on Rapnet, heck, Rap itself was a turmoil. Mr. Rapaport was subject to death threats by some, and praise by others. Those of us in the hinterlands loved the fact that we did not have to spend a week or two in NY to find what the real price of diamonds was. Yes, we had to work hard to figure out the discount, which was constantly changing, but we had a trail map with which we could use to at least get to the neighborhood of correct pricing.

Sorry for the long post, I get so excited about the many things I have witnessed during my 50 plus years in the industry.

All I am really trying to say is I agree with you completely.

 

[Karl_K]

Getting historical, I have an AGS cut grading story.
AGS had just announced their new cut grading system and ASET along with the upcoming new reports.
Well I kinda became the most hated consumer on PS among the vendors for a short time and some rather strong words were said about me at JCK that year.
What did I do?
Someone asked me if they should wait for the new reports to come out to buy and I said.. yes!
Sales that were in the process of happening where put on hold, consumers started immediately demanding the new reports and sales tanked. They had to scramble to get all their stock updated reports in the new format as soon as AGS let them.
Woops!

 

[Texas Leaguer]

When were you there Texas Leaguer? My wife and I graduated in November 1975. I did not have John for any of my classes and do not remember him being there at the time. I am thinking he may have come to GIA after I graduated.

I got to know Peter well during the cut wars when the AGS team got together with some very brilliant people and created the cut grading system still in use today. Peter wanted to take it so much further and had some very brilliant ideas on things that could be added to the reports. Peter hosted a couple of cut grade band camps before JCK and when you get so many bright people together at his house, the conversations got very deep. (And sometimes very boisterous.)

I started GIA in 1978 after my first post-college career, playing professional baseball, came to an unceremonious end after three seasons.

I went through the GIA distance program. I met John Yantzer and two other awesome instructors (Mike Albritton and Janice Mack) at the one of the roving satellite labs that GIA would provide for distance students. This was a colored stone ID lab that was held in Baton Rouge. We spent a week immersed in gemstones during the day, and the students (about 10 of us) and the three instructors would hang out together in the evenings and immerse in beer and Cajun seafood. The instructors never quit teaching and the evenings always involved great stories about intriguing adventures in the world of gems (some embellished I'm sure!).

It was a complete blast and I've been totally hooked on diamonds and gems ever since !

 

[Wink]

Memories! Oh, the wonderful memories that you bring forth.

I took a design class from Mike before starting my GG courses. I was probably one of the worst "artists" ever to subject him with having to be taught. I did learn a couple of great tricks for winning drinks in bars from him, although, I haven't been to a bar to drink and win bets for decades. Somehow, going with my lovely wife to a bar, does not lead to getting strangers to bet with me. LOTS of great conversations, but no bets.

I did not have Janice as an instructor, but she was dating Mike at the time and Resa and I had them to our apartment a couple of times for dinners. We greatly enjoyed both of them.

Mike also introduced me to some WAY cool gem vendors when they came to GIA to have things looked at. I always had to take them to the little restaurant next door to GIA to look at and purchase gems, as it would not have been looked upon kindly by the brass at GIA and I would not have wanted to have caused any problems.

I saw one of the very first color change garnets. It caused some consternation at the lab, as it was a singly refractive gem, and at that time, one of the tenets of color change gems was they had to be doubly refractive. This gem that I saw, and it was a BEAUTY, clearly disproved that "law." (It was not for sale at that time.) I also saw and bought my first benitoite from one of those vendors, and we did business for several years.

I met many of the greats of the industry at that time and I still feel blessed to have met them. Thanks for reminding me of such a great time.

 

[Wink]

Another memory just surfaced of my time at GIA. I was in the colored gem ID course at the time and Ray ??? was teaching. He gave a test and the only question I missed was the one stating, "In order to show a star, a gem must have a convex shape. T F.

I, of course, correctly marked it False. I got the paper back with that answer marked as wrong. The next day at lunch, I drove to the 607 Hill Street building and purchased one of the inexpensive ashtrays with a concave opening for the cigarettes that showed a perfect star.

Ray grumbled that I already had the highest grade in the class and I should let it go. I replied I not only wanted my grade corrected, but I felt the others should get dinged for answering incorrectly. Sigh, I got the 100%, but he would not even tell the class that he gave an incorrect question on the test...

 

[DRSAMURAI]

Paul Hung, Founder of JannPaul, as a patented diamond cut designer of the White Series, patented lab diamond process grower and diamond vender sees the AGS-GIA merger as strategic maneuver to adapt to changing competitive market forces. Here is how he reads the tea leaves and gives us more to digest:

AGS is merging with GIA, it's a move against IGI basically.

so for all existing cuts already in the system, e.g our ws line will have a GIA cert, together along with an AGS light performance report only, so as of now, the main cert will be under GIA and light performance will only (for now) for certain companies who has had really strong cuts like our white series line, will continue to be provided with a supplementary ideal cut light performance grade labelled with AGS, so aset and everything. But new cuts wont and certain vendors who has had worked with them won't, I think I can openly say now why i'm working with GCAL 8x.

with regards to many 3 EX graded will be downgraded, you mean a wider parameter? As of now, GIA wants to combine AGS's research to create new possibilities. But to me really, and people in the industry is that we know it's a move against IGI.

Everything was discussed this year, nothing concrete is set in stone, but basically they want to use AGS's research to incorporate into the GIA system ( that's the idea, but nothing set in stone, as the AGS team hasn't even moved into the gia research department yet)

oh and, it's also a move to improve fancies (as fancy shaped diamonds demand won't be going anywhere soon in fact it's going to continue to rise) using ags tech, but this wont be in the very near future.
all in all, AGS will function as their research team under GIA. That's all that i'm allowed to say for now.

So no one, not even anyone in GIA or AGS can say that in the future it would be for the better or for the worse.

All I can say that is, the more labs you have, the more variances you have in grading, and to fight against IGI by mass, you either have more transparency, or lower your standards and costs against IGI.
that's 2 things they'd have to tackle.

I do have a meeting with them tomorrow, but yup. if it's on pricescope you can quote me on this since this is out and open already.

See More from

Paul of JannPaul offers his most recent insights and opinions on the merger:

just an update cause i see alot of speculation on pricescope and this open to be quoted by me, finished my meeting with both labs.

1.) GIA will not be changing their cut grading system, if anyone was wishing for a new lab report that combines the 2, like incorporating the aset into the gia cert/ creating a premium gia cert that's not ever happening and confirmed.
2.) all recertifications, or resubmissions will be fresh as a whole to GIA. if there's any discrepancies found(this opens a huge pandora box) between the 2 labs now, there will be no support given, it'll be up to the retailer to explain to their clients. (sorry my personal opinion is that GIA threw all ex ags clients just under a bus. The team in ags fought to push through as much as possible of their outstanding services over the years, but alot of it was denied
3) past submissions, recertifications, will have to go through the 3 exc. if you were a previous agsl vendor, and need to recertify for your client or your own past diamonds, everything will rerun through the whole new gia system brand new, no subsidy, full charge as a brand new submission no support is given, should you have any discrepancies that's all on you.
4.) all AGSL vendors of the past, knows the lengths AGSL goes for their vendors, cut scans will be sent first to evaluated and studied for the possibility of ideal 0 light performance, agsl will then provide a comprehensive zenith and guide for them if or not and how to make the ags 0 ideal cut grade. this service is entirely terminated.
5.) if you choose to go for the ags ideal light performance report + GIA, and you're speculating that new vendors would jump on this bandwagon, there's is no support given. If say you choose to submit 2000 stones with gia + the new ags submission report, first you'd need to make the gia 3exc grade. there will be no support given from gia nor ags on what will meet the ideal 0 mark anymore. if 1000 stones do not meet the criteria for agsl 0 light performance, you will be reimbursed half of the price of the you paid for the 25$ usd of that 1000 stones(lol). we're talking about just round brilliants alone, forget even fancies. so if you're unfamiliar with the ags ideal 0 metric of the past. you're pretty much gambling.
6) the new ags light report digital really just looks... vendors might as well just take their own aset scope at this point.

this is as much as i'm allowed to say.

read between the lines: that im extremely unhappy with what's going on and all the marketing fluff. the team in AGSL especially their RnD team are fabulous fantastic hard working people, they've had tons of really innovative rnd works they were working on last year that i know of, that could help immensely in transparency and cut innovation for both products and consumer protection, that was all cancelled. Those who has had the honor to work with the rnd team before know that they're extremely passionate people at their work who go far and beyond with the passion of shipley's TRUE vision.
One cannot support a broken system if the broken system is confirmed in place to stay. that's all I can say.

Paul Hung
Ceo of JANNPAUL