Calling all the Pregnant PS''ers

[TravelingGal]

Curlygirl, the pitocin thing kind of made no sense to me either...I know people who have had the epi because they are going along nicely. I think her stats have to be a little off!

And hang in there girl! Sorry you are feeling ick. It will be interesting to see how this pregnancy feels compared to the first.

I''ve had to explain to TGuy to keep an open mind. Sometimes I think he thinks I am TOO tough. I rarely complain about things, and he knows I''m a pretty strongwilled person. I''ve had an easy pregnancy as you all know, so sometimes I do let him know that it is not as easy as it looks. That sometimes, I just grin and bear it.

MrsS, that doesn''t surprise me. I only know one person who went natural (she''s an industry colleague and lives in WI). No one I know within my circle of friends/acquaintances has done it. My mother is the only person I know who had no intervention whatsoever. No gas, no drugs, no epi...nada. And with me, she had a long, loooooooong labor...apparently alone without my drunkard dad.

 

[LitigatorChick]

Date: 2/11/2008 1:38:57 PM
Author: mrssalvo
you gals think 85% epi rate is high...here in TN it's 99%

almost eveyone does the drugs.

Wow again. They better have lots of operating rooms for the C-sections that will follow....

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/11/2008 1:48:21 PM
Author: LitigatorChick

Date: 2/11/2008 1:38:57 PM
Author: mrssalvo
you gals think 85% epi rate is high...here in TN it''s 99%

almost eveyone does the drugs.

Wow again. They better have lots of operating rooms for the C-sections that will follow....

Not sure that''s quite a fair statement. If 99% of people had natural births, there might be just as high a rate of c-sections and complications. Hmm...

I''m not sure if it''s the epis that seems to lead to the c-sections, or the inductions when the body really isn''t ready (as Diver mentioned). My friend went through the textbook complication route after induction. Induced at 42 weeks...body just not ready. IV. Pitocin. Epidural. Drop in blood pressure. Fetal heartrate slows. Distress. Emergency c-section.

The last 4 births in our group has been by c-section. One scheduled (problem with fetus). 2 because of induction/pitocin, and one of the mothers nearly died in childbirth due to hemorraging. And 1 because the baby was sunny side up and pushing got her nowhere. I am hoping to break the trend.

 

[TravelingGal]

Litchick, upon thinking, I''d like to say this with all due respect.

People like you, me and Jas should know what it feels like to be pressured into having an epi birth. People say we''re nuts for even thinking about it etc. I am always amazed how judgmental people are about others choices. This thread has always been amazingly supportive for people with all views.

The statement you made above may not be the best for those who really want an epi birth, but want to deliver vaginally and not by c-section. As we know the majority of women DO want the drugs and there is nothing wrong with that! I don''t think it''s fair to scare anyone who wants the drugs, but may be scared of the c-section. Yes, it''s very good to do research and be informed, but maybe the "wow" and eek factor may not be the most encouraging way.

 

[LitigatorChick]

I have previously read literature indicating that the risk of a c-section increases with epidurals, esp. early epidurals. For me, this research lead me to a "goal" to reach at least 5 cm before I had any epi, and only then if I needed it.

 

[mrssalvo]

Date: 2/11/2008 1:48:21 PM
Author: LitigatorChick

Date: 2/11/2008 1:38:57 PM

Author: mrssalvo

you gals think 85% epi rate is high...here in TN it's 99%

almost eveyone does the drugs.

Wow again. They better have lots of operating rooms for the C-sections that will follow....

ummm.. well i had an epi with both of my girls and no c-section. my water broke with my first and i wasn't dialating so they gave me pitocin and then i got the epi. at 2cm. i had a less than 12 hour labor from water breaking until birth. i started contractions with my second, dialated to a 5, they had to break my water, then got the epi, went on to have a VB with her. i don't know the stats, but i'm not sure that is a fair statement at all. I totally respect those who choose to give birth naturally, i'd also appreciate the same respect for the those of us who choose to use the drugs. obviously almost everyone i know uses the drugs and i only know 2 people who had to have c-sections and that was due to cords wrappped around the babies neck keeping it from coming down the birth canal. had nothing to do with an epi.

dani would probably know the stats and maybe she'll chime in

ETA: i've heard the reseach too on waiting until you are dialated, but really it's up to the everyone's doctor when to ok the epi. mine said i could have it whenever i wanted with my first, during my second he said to wait until after they broke my water. so i think it's just case by case. anyway, i decided to take it when i felt the pain becoming more than i really wanted to deal with.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/11/2008 2:11:00 PM
Author: mrssalvo


ummm.. well i had an epi with both of my girls and no c-section. my water broke with my first and i wasn't dialating so they gave me pitocin and then i got the epi. less than 12 hour labor from water breaking until birth. i started contractions with my second, dialated to a 5, they had to break my water, then got the epi, went on to have a VB with her. i don't know the stats, but i'm not sure that is a fair statement at all. I totally respect those who choose to give birth naturally, i'd also appreciate the same respect for the those of us who choose to use the drugs. obviously almost everyone i know uses the drugs and i only know 2 people who had to have c-sections and that was due to cords wrappped around the babies neck keeping it from coming down the birth canal. had nothing to do with an epi.

dani would probably know the stats and maybe she'll chime in

ITA. I think that was what I was trying to say in my convoluted post.

 

[LitigatorChick]

Date: 2/11/2008 2:01:31 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Litchick, upon thinking, I''d like to say this with all due respect.

People like you, me and Jas should know what it feels like to be pressured into having an epi birth. People say we''re nuts for even thinking about it etc. I am always amazed how judgmental people are about others choices. This thread has always been amazingly supportive for people with all views.

The statement you made above may not be the best for those who really want an epi birth, but want to deliver vaginally and not by c-section. As we know the majority of women DO want the drugs and there is nothing wrong with that! I don''t think it''s fair to scare anyone who wants the drugs, but may be scared of the c-section. Yes, it''s very good to do research and be informed, but maybe the ''wow'' and eek factor may not be the most encouraging way.

Thanks for your input. On the first matter of the increased risks associated with epis (esp., early epis), check out this article. http://www.midwifeinfo.com/content/view/81/45/.

There is nothing wrong with any choice - as a woman, it is yours to make. Any smart woman will not be scared if they have knowledge. If you choose to go natural, you will know about pain and how to deal with that. If you choose to go with drugs, you need to know all the pros and cons of the drugs. IMO, one con of drugs may be increased risk of c-section, which for ME, was a big con.

My wow and eek is for the automatic "medicalization" of child birth. It is assumed that you will have an iv, assumed that you will have an epi. If women were really knowledgable and not pressured into the "norm", I think that it would be closer to 50%, not 85-99%.

Point is - do what you want. But stats like that show me that people may not be doing what they want. Thus, the eek.

 

[mrssalvo]

Litchick, but of course a Midwife website is going to have facts and research to advocate not having an epidural

. seriously though, one thing i love about this thread/forum is the ability for folks to share info but not judge others and accept that each woman will make the choices that are best for her. there are so many things out there that are debated..i.e breastfeeding/nursing, plasic diaper/cloth etc. i do agree it's important for gals to educate themselves and be aware of the pros and cons and you'll find most of the gals here are researchers by nature (hence, how they found PS) so they will do their due dilligence in finding what will work best for them

 

[Tacori E-ring]

LC, I think your statement is way off base. It is true that inductions can lead to a greater chance of c-sec (b/c baby is not ready) but epis....I have never heard that. I''ll have to ask my dad (he does that for a living). In fact the fact that my dad said there were no risks and I am his daughter (and carrying his grandchild) made me very confident. My hospital is WILLING to let you go natural. They don''t care.

MrsS, I COMPLETELY agree with you as usual. It is like any choice in life. I try to respect other people''s but do not want to be converted. Without scaring the new mommies too much my labor before my epi (at 5 cm) was the worst pain in my life. I have a pretty good tolerance too. There is NO way I could handle it (nor did I want to). But if you want to, hey, go for it! Let me know how it is. I''ll take the IV and epi EVERYTIME. Seeing how I had pain WITH the epi...I don''t know.

Curly, sorry to hear about miss Lily. Hope she feels better soon. How are YOU feeling my dear?

Monnie, I forgot to mention you TOTALLY made my day. I don''t feel pretty that often anymore so your sweet comments were just what I needed to hear!

Jas, yes peeing gets MUCH harder as does shaving. I remember when I tried and I didn''t realize I could not longer SEE down there. That was funny.

Jas12, We survived it all! But I think we are leaving her with my MIL for Mexico. It is 8 hours...I don''t know if we can handle that and she is happy to watch her.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/11/2008 2:25:50 PM
Author: LitigatorChick

Thanks for your input. On the first matter of the increased risks associated with epis (esp., early epis), check out this article. http://www.midwifeinfo.com/content/view/81/45/.

There is nothing wrong with any choice - as a woman, it is yours to make. Any smart woman will not be scared if they have knowledge. If you choose to go natural, you will know about pain and how to deal with that. If you choose to go with drugs, you need to know all the pros and cons of the drugs. IMO, one con of drugs may be increased risk of c-section, which for ME, was a big con.

My wow and eek is for the automatic ''medicalization'' of child birth. It is assumed that you will have an iv, assumed that you will have an epi. If women were really knowledgable and not pressured into the ''norm'', I think that it would be closer to 50%, not 85-99%.

Point is - do what you want. But stats like that show me that people may not be doing what they want. Thus, the eek.

Trust me, I''ve read plenty of articles. Enough to make TGuy roll his eyes. There are reasons why I am thinking about going naturally.

I do think with all the negative stories out there, and with a lot of women not researching, it is easy to be scared and go the drug route. However, there are still plenty of "smart" women who have read, researched, and are still scared (or at least realistic) about childbirth and their threshold for pain. There are many women who are knowledgeable and not pressured whatsoever and choose to have an epi. I''m not sure the stats would drop so drastically...the ones who researched and want an epi are not going to change their mind, and the ones who are so scared and don''t know a thing would probably be even more freaked about by doing the research (because let''s face it...natural birth doesn''t exactly seem like a walk in the park. "Ring of fire" anyone?

)

But the pendulum is swinging back, so maybe the stats will change. More and more women are being positive about birth stories, both natural and epi. And I do agree that women probably are pressured in hospitals...it''s a fear I have, otherwise I would not have brought up the IV stat. If I were REALLY gung ho about a natural birth, I probably should have done what msflutter did and find somewhere more conducive to natural birthing instead of a huge hospital with staff who have not often seen a natural birth.

 

[LitigatorChick]

Agreed, MrsSalvo. As I noted above, "There is nothing wrong with any choice - as a woman, it is yours to make. Any smart woman will not be scared if they have knowledge.". The eek was for the automatic and uniform results - indicates to me that the masses (not us PS gals, of course) would not be educated and end up with something they really don''t want. Diversity of opinions and results is what makes everything fun.

By the way, MrsS, I am coveting your cushion on the SMTR thread. Yummo!!!

 

[Jas12]

Is it just me, or did things just heat up in here?

My 2 cents (if anyone cares)

Birth experience/plans are such a hard thing to discuss for a number of reasons....

1) When you haven''t gone through it, it can seems naive and self-righteous to make statements like " don''t get induced or take drugs" etc. (at least I feel that way sometimes when I state my opinions, like who am I to even comment?!)

Yet….
2) Even if you have gone through it, it''s so variable for every woman and from birth to birth. Just b/c one women delivered naturally for one birth, doesn''t mean she will for the others and vice versa. Or just b/c one women had a c-sec after an induction does not mean another will..etc.

3) It''s hard to isolate variables. The hospital interventions, the woman''s personality, her cultural background, the support team, the views of the OB or midwife etc. all work together for a unique event—it’s hard to say what caused what when you have all these things at play…

I want a natural birth for the same reasons tgal does, and b/c I know that all interventions carry some risk----but that is simply me—one person, with one view. It’s a view that may/may not change, and I am open to that….
Although I want, expect, and will try for a natural birth I would never assume everyone would want the same and I would not think less of someone with another view b/c I may be that ‘other view’ some day.
The big thing for me (always has been) is being informed. It is true, intervention goes on in hospital births, and intervention leads to more intervention (hence the rates of nearly 1 in 3 women getting c-sections in Can and the US)--even the W.H.O is flagging this and thinks there should be a major drop in intervention numbers .A good way to make sense of this is to look at other countries. Do the women in the Netherlands have better birthing hips than us North American’s and that’s why they deliver naturally most of the time? Of course not, we simply view and treat birth differently. Knowing this makes me feel empowered to have a certain type of experience, yet friends of mine believe that if we have a way to diminish pain why in my right mind would I refuse it?
It’s simply about choice and understanding and accepting risks. If we are informed and know what are bodies are capable of, what Dr.''s believe our bodies are incapable of and what we hope for ourselves, then we can best make decisions that will hopefully lead to the type of experience we want as an individual.

 

[icekid]

Date: 2/11/2008 2:11:00 PM
Author: mrssalvo

dani would probably know the stats and maybe she''ll chime in

I''m not Dani, but I did give a talk on this last year so I thought I would chime in. Studies really have NOT shown that there is an increase in c/s rate with the use of epidurals. Even if you can find studies (which you can find studies to show anything!), correlation does not prove causation. That is to say, the fact that someone got an epidural and then eventually had a c/s delivery does not prove that the epidural was the cause. Perhaps the patient requested an epidural because she was in more pain than the avg due to an inadequate pelvis (or whatever reason). Regardless, across studies there is no solid evidence that c/s rate is increased. Litigator provided a midwifery link, but of course you have to consider the source. There may be a bit of bias going on there

However, I *did* find that there is an increased risk of an operative vaginal delivery (forceps or vacuum) and increased episiotomy w/ epidural. Again, does not prove causation. Might be in fact related to the fact that women requesting the epidural were having a more difficult delivery. Epi may also cause cervical dilation to go more slowly, but if you''re comfy, it probably does not matter that much anyway!

I truly believe each woman should have the kind of delivery she desires. Pain relief can makes things a LOT more pleasant. Why is childbirth the ONLY pain that people find tolerable? If anyone off the street was in that kind of pain, they would be on heavy narcotics. However, if you want to go without, then absolutely go for it! The wonderful thing is that it''s your choice.

As far as the IV issue, I personally would not go through labor without IV access. There are too many variables that can go wrong. If things go south for mom or baby, you want them to be able to get the baby OUT. NOW. And not having an IV puts you at risk.

 

[TravelingGal]

Looks like I was posting the same time as Tacori and Mrs S.

Mrs S, yup, I was thinking that the midwife site would be more biased toward a natural birth. That''s why in my research I have gone to many sites with different slants. I''ve also talked to my friend''s hubby who is an anesthesiologist. Good research is thorough research!

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/11/2008 3:03:29 PM
Author: icekid

I truly believe each woman should have the kind of delivery she desires. Pain relief can makes things a LOT more pleasant. Why is childbirth the ONLY pain that people find tolerable? If anyone off the street was in that kind of pain, they would be on heavy narcotics. However, if you want to go without, then absolutely go for it! The wonderful thing is that it's your choice.

Simple answer for me on that one.

It's because childbirth is the ONLY pain that doesn't indicate something is wrong with your body. It's indicating that everything is going RIGHT. I would not get a root canal without drugs. My friend made that analogy, but I don't think it is the same thing with childbirth.

Trust me, if I ever have gallstones, I'm going for the drugs without hesitation!!!!!!!!!!

 

[icekid]

Date: 2/11/2008 3:10:44 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 2/11/2008 3:03:29 PM
Author: icekid

I truly believe each woman should have the kind of delivery she desires. Pain relief can makes things a LOT more pleasant. Why is childbirth the ONLY pain that people find tolerable? If anyone off the street was in that kind of pain, they would be on heavy narcotics. However, if you want to go without, then absolutely go for it! The wonderful thing is that it''s your choice.

Simple answer for me on that one.

It''s because childbirth is the ONLY pain that doesn''t indicate something is wrong with your body. It''s indicating that everything is going RIGHT. I would not get a root canal without drugs. My friend made that analogy, but I don''t think it is the same thing with childbirth.

Trust me, if I ever have gallstones, I''m going for the drugs without hesitation!!!!!!!!!!

I understand

And there is a purpose to labor pain. But in this day and age, there is another option for those who want it. And any control that the new mom can gain in this crazy process is a good thing!

Can you imagine if MEN went through labor? Epidurals everywhere! hehe

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/11/2008 3:30:23 PM
Author: icekid

I understand

And there is a purpose to labor pain. But in this day and age, there is another option for those who want it. And any control that the new mom can gain in this crazy process is a good thing!

Can you imagine if MEN went through labor? Epidurals everywhere! hehe

Funny, that''s why I am leaning toward natural...because I like the thought of a little more control. But come back to me when I am screaming and choking TGuy...

If men went through pregnancy and labor? They''d be single parents. I''d slit my wrists hearing all that b*tching and moaning.

OK, change of course gals...for you 3 tris, how do you think your baby is lying? I think TTot is transverse....I feel hiccups way on one side, and little kicks on the other. Any more knowledgeable ladies care to give a guess if I am correct?

 

[LitigatorChick]

Just a couple quotes from the World Health Organization (http://www.who.int/reproductive-health/publications/MSM_96_24/MSM_96_24_Chapter2Part2.en.html):

"In a recent American trial the number of caesarean sections was increased when epidural analgesia was used, especially when the epidural was started before 5 cm dilatation "

"There is little doubt that epidural analgesia is useful in complicated labour and delivery. However, if epidural analgesia is administered to a low-risk pregnant woman, it is questionable whether the resulting procedure can still be called "normal labour". Naturally, the answer depends on the definition of normality, but epidural analgesia is one of the most striking examples of the medicalization of normal birth, transforming a physiological event into a medical procedure."

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/11/2008 3:33:48 PM
Author: LitigatorChick
Just a couple quotes from the World Health Organization (http://www.who.int/reproductive-health/publications/MSM_96_24/MSM_96_24_Chapter2Part2.en.html):

''In a recent American trial the number of caesarean sections was increased when epidural analgesia was used, especially when the epidural was started before 5 cm dilatation ''

''There is little doubt that epidural analgesia is useful in complicated labour and delivery. However, if epidural analgesia is administered to a low-risk pregnant woman, it is questionable whether the resulting procedure can still be called ''normal labour''. Naturally, the answer depends on the definition of normality, but epidural analgesia is one of the most striking examples of the medicalization of normal birth, transforming a physiological event into a medical procedure.''

Litchick, I realize that the lawyer in you is trying to support your position, but in all honesty, I think we get it.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

TGal, you''ll be fine and remember you can always change your mind (up to a certain point). I agree everyone''s labor IS different. Some are luckier than others. The most important thing is doing what is best for you and your baby. Like icekid mentioned I felt more secure with an OB, an IV, and giving birth in a hospital (connected to a children''s hospital). We don''t want bad things to happen but I like to be prepared. We were lucky with Tessa. I am sure our upbringing did influence us. Both of our dads are docs.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/11/2008 3:43:45 PM
Author: Tacori E-ring
TGal, you'll be fine and remember you can always change your mind (up to a certain point). I agree everyone's labor IS different. Some are luckier than others. The most important thing is doing what is best for you and your baby. Like icekid mentioned I felt more secure with an OB, an IV, and giving birth in a hospital (connected to a children's hospital). We don't want bad things to happen but I like to be prepared. We were lucky with Tessa. I am sure our upbringing did influence us. Both of our dads are docs.

That's why I wanted a heplock. I do agree it's best to be prepared. I think I'll labor for awhile at home and then go in and go through the routine. If I can get a bit done at home while freed up, it may help me to relax.

I'll just open PS and look at pics of all your babies and think "Soon I'll be getting one of these cuties!" I am sure that will keep me focused and happy.

Hm...my dad was a used car salesman once...does this mean I'll be bargaining with the nurses? "OK...an IV at 5 cm, no earlier. That's my BEST offer!"

ETA, at our hospital, the window for an epi is anytime to anytime. They did away with the 4-9cm rule.

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 2/11/2008 2:55:32 PM
Author: mrssalvo
Litchick, but of course a Midwife website is going to have facts and research to advocate not having an epidural

. seriously though, one thing i love about this thread/forum is the ability for folks to share info but not judge others and accept that each woman will make the choices that are best for her. there are so many things out there that are debated..i.e breastfeeding/nursing, plasic diaper/cloth etc. i do agree it''s important for gals to educate themselves and be aware of the pros and cons and you''ll find most of the gals here are researchers by nature (hence, how they found PS) so they will do their due dilligence in finding what will work best for them

Ditto, well said!!

 

[curlygirl]

Woohoo, it''s getting hot in here. Let''s all have a beer!!

xo
Lily (whose mother had an epidural and still delivered vaginally!)

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/11/2008 3:58:57 PM
Author: curlygirl
Woohoo, it''s getting hot in here. Let''s all have a beer!!

xo
Lily (whose mother had an epidural and still delivered vaginally!)

Your baby has good taste in beer! So girls ARE more expensive!!!

 

[Tacori E-ring]

TGal, feel free to print out a picture of Tessa

Since I was induced I didn''t have a chance to labor at home b/c I kind of have the personality where I would feel MORE relaxed in the hospital than at home. I am a worry wart. Most people are like you and rather be home.

 

[LitigatorChick]

Date: 2/11/2008 3:38:00 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 2/11/2008 3:33:48 PM
Author: LitigatorChick
Just a couple quotes from the World Health Organization (http://www.who.int/reproductive-health/publications/MSM_96_24/MSM_96_24_Chapter2Part2.en.html):

''In a recent American trial the number of caesarean sections was increased when epidural analgesia was used, especially when the epidural was started before 5 cm dilatation ''

''There is little doubt that epidural analgesia is useful in complicated labour and delivery. However, if epidural analgesia is administered to a low-risk pregnant woman, it is questionable whether the resulting procedure can still be called ''normal labour''. Naturally, the answer depends on the definition of normality, but epidural analgesia is one of the most striking examples of the medicalization of normal birth, transforming a physiological event into a medical procedure.''

Litchick, I realize that the lawyer in you is trying to support your position, but in all honesty, I think we get it.

Thanks for the lawyer comment - it isn''t every day that people make assumptions about me because of my occupation......... right, it is.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/11/2008 4:05:33 PM
Author: Tacori E-ring
TGal, feel free to print out a picture of Tessa

Since I was induced I didn''t have a chance to labor at home b/c I kind of have the personality where I would feel MORE relaxed in the hospital than at home. I am a worry wart. Most people are like you and rather be home.

Actually Tacori, I am more like you. I am also one to always want to rush to a line...so if I go into labor, I''ll be like, hurry, let''s get there before all the good labor rooms get taken! Hehehe. So honestly, I would not be surprised if I feel an overwhelming urge to go to the hospital as soon as things start to get going.

And thanks for the offer...I think I will definitely print out photos of our gorgeous PS babies and pin them up...and leave a blank spot for TTot! Yay!!

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Curly, she is so cute! So pretty!

 

[Jas12]

Tacori
--hospital births are not statistically safer than non-hospital births and yet I am with you, I do feel a sense of security knowing extra help is close at hand. I would consider a home birth just cuz i am feet from the hospitals doors, but I would not if I lived any further. Just another example of how there is so much personal opinion and choice at play. It''s not a simple thing to plan and go thru.
--Re: travel and cute babies: Tessa is without a doubt a beauty (it''s not just cuz you''re her mom that you think so). Made me giggle when you noted that b/c after working years in a daycare and then some time as an elementary teacher you realize that every parent thinks his/her little one is the most gorgeous, advanced and charming thing on the block, part of what keeps us loving our kids more than anything I guess. It''s usually the parents who say ''i know i am biased" who actually do have kids that stick out in one way or another.Those parents seem to be down to earth and realistic. The moms on PS seem to fit that description


Tgal--yep, knowing the pain is ''good'' is key for me. B/c like you i go to the drugs at the first sign of major non-natural pain!!

As for the positioning thing. I thought my bambino was lying transverse as well--exact reasons you described: feeling hiccups mid-low right hand side and strong kicks on the left. I asked my OB at my last appnt what position he/she was in and he told me ''head down'' --so you may be that way too.They are all curled up now so that influences how we percieve the baby is lying (well, that''s what he told me anyway)
Ask at your next appnt--then, if it is head down have a little stern pep-talk to ensure things stay that way-hehe