Calling all the Pregnant PS''ers

[Upgradable]

Date: 10/29/2008 11:13:55 AM
Author: mela lu
Hi Girls. I''m in a rare spot and need your wise words.

I''ve reached a really really emotional ''phase'' where I''m crying at nothing even though I''m not upset (commercials, songs etc) - total hormone overload. Reading about all of your struggles is hard - and I find I cry reading them.

Which leads me to my question.

A recent conversation with my close girlfriend about childbirth got my hot under the collar. Out of 8 girls (only one of which is preggers, and NONE have children) they are all ADAMANT about getting an epidural. Their rational being ''you can give birth on a bed of nails or a bed of roses'' and ''why suffer needlessly''.

- My general understanding of ''natural vs. epidural'' is that - natural is a more active while epi is slightly more passive.
- Two coworker who have had children had some adverse effects from the epi and are going to try natural for their second. ETA: Both were basically not given the natural childbirth option at the time of their first; the epi was strongly ''recommended''.
- Pain threshold / Risk level etc.
- I have more thoughts on this but its not terribly relevant to my overall question

I just feel like epidurals are being offered up like a menu item and the majority of women assume that it''s the way to go; without doing any research into the benifits of natural. My pregnant girlfriend said that 90% of women in her hospital get epidurals. Is it just me, or is that a little HIGH?

*This is not meant as a judgment on anyone here who is opting for an epidural. I myself am open to one if ''natural'' turns out to be ''not for me'' at the time*

Has anyone else found this phenomenon to be true? Are women these days basically programed to think natural childbirth is outdated and epidural are the new norm? Is everyone ''too posh to push''?

...Or am i just all hot and bothered Hormona?

Mela aka Hormona 10w5d

I''m sorry you''re feeling bad about being so emotional. It''s totally hormonal, and after you''re through this journey, you''ll love looking back at this time.

As for responding in a way that helps you avoid "going postal" on them, I say "It''s really a moot point right now. I guess we''ll have to wait until I go into labor to decide." And this really is the truth!

I''m very proud of you for all of your research, but my biggest disappointment during my first pregnancy was the concept of creating a "Birth Plan"!! IMO there never was a bigger oxymoron spoken!! Deciding in advance, and committing yourself 100% to those decisions can set you up for great disappointments. Especially if circumstance come up that cause you to have to choose another path. So many women feel that they "failed" when they couldn''t stick to the plan! Nothing is further from the truth!!! It hurts my heart so to hear this.

Let me give you my experience. In my "plan" there were going to be no drugs. I had even told my husband that if I asked for drugs, he was to try and talk me out of it. Well, 26 hours of back labor wasn''t in my plan either!! At 20 hours, after being sent home by the hospital once, I was sitting in the rocking chair in the L&D room, rocking like a madwoman. At this point I look at hubby and say "Get the nurse. I want something for the pain." Like an obediant and loving husband, he goes along with what I asked him and started trying to talk me out of it. I think I let him go on a little bit (he estimates it about 1.5 seconds), and then, according to him, my head spun around on my neck, red lasers shot out of my eyes, and a demon voice rose from my mouth proclaiming loudly "I SAID GET ME THE NURSE!!!!!!!" He promptly turned around and did as I asked.

For my second child, one of the first questions I asked was, can I get an epidural if I want one? I enjoyed that second delivery much, much more! It was a sixteen hour labor, again with back labor, but I was offered an epidural at hour 10, and was thus much more participatory in the process. With my first birth, I felt it was happening TO me. With my second, I gave birth. So.... all of this knowledge should be used as tools to be used during the birth process. Good luck, and I''ll keep you in my prayers!!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 10/29/2008 12:07:30 PM
Author: Upgradable
...In my ''plan'' there were going to be no drugs. I had even told my husband that if I asked for drugs, he was to try and talk me out of it. Well, 26 hours of back labor wasn''t in my plan either!!.

This is one of the situations my midwives talked about... they would classify 20 hours of labour with little progression as "suffering", which is why epis were invented IMHO! At that point, even they would recommend an epi.

I like your point about not having a plan. I don''t have one, I "plan" to trust my midwives and do what they suggest whatever that is. This is why finding a care provider who shares your views is so important! I trust that if they tell me to use drugs, that I need pitocin, that I need a c-section, then I really need it!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 10/29/2008 12:06:56 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Actually I am in quite the Yuppie group of friends and the majority co-slept (I have to say, with some interesting results). I was in the minority putting my baby in the crib at 6 weeks.

TGal you are in california right? I think things are very different in my neck of the woods... it all seems very conservative around here. Surprising since it is Canada, but this is a conservative area of the country. Now vancouver, where I am from... that is a different story!

 

[Upgradable]

Again, many more

for dreamer!!!

Smart Lady!

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 10/29/2008 12:13:47 PM
Author: dreamer_dachsie

Date: 10/29/2008 12:07:30 PM
Author: Upgradable
...In my ''plan'' there were going to be no drugs. I had even told my husband that if I asked for drugs, he was to try and talk me out of it. Well, 26 hours of back labor wasn''t in my plan either!!.

This is one of the situations my midwives talked about... they would classify 20 hours of labour with little progression as ''suffering'', which is why epis were invented IMHO! At that point, even they would recommend an epi.

I like your point about not having a plan. I don''t have one, I ''plan'' to trust my midwives and do what they suggest whatever that is. This is why finding a care provider who shares your views is so important! I trust that if they tell me to use drugs, that I need pitocin, that I need a c-section, then I really need it!

I really think a woman''s intuition is strong. At 7 am after 15 hours of labor (if I count from the time my water broke), I got the epi. I was not progressing. My baby was unhappy and her heartbeat was dropping as soon as they started monitoring me (before the pitocin and before the toxemia issue). I do think it''s possible the drugs made it all worse, but I am not expert and it''s all speculation because I will never know.

I really believe once you get there, you will know what you can handle. And you will find (and I will guarantee this) that once it starts, your number one priority is to get that baby out safe and sound. All else comes second. The last thing I wanted was a c-section but when I heard her heartbeat falling away (I mention this in my birth story), every hair on my arm stood on end. I would have taken a knife to my own belly - I could not get her out fast enough.

 

[drk]

I lurk here waiting for the day when I finally get a BFP that sticks, but now I have to comment on the epidural talk that''s going on.

Not that this should be construed as medical advice, but I do epidurals too. They are very safe, and in the hospital I''ve done my training at, >90% of women get them (major downtown teaching centre, with at least 2 anesthesiologists on call at any time on L&D). Patients in whom it would not be safe to do them don''t get one (low platelets, didn''t stop anticoagulants long enough ahead of time, spina bifida).

But how many people get them really depends on where you give birth and what the staffing is like. Teaching centres seem to have patients get them, get put on monitors, and then the staff (OBs and RNs) hang out at the nursing station watching remotely rather than staying with the patient and coaching them through it. It''s a lot less tiring that way - I wonder if that''s why epidurals are so encouraged? On the other hand, in boonieville where there was no anesthesia available, patients had to go and stay at a bigger centre 3 hours away prior to going into labour if they wanted to have the option of an epidural when the time came. And if they stayed in the smaller town, they''d get one-on-one nursing care from fantastic nurses who really knew how to coach them through labour. Knowing that there were no options other than a shot of demerol and gravol in early labour, they did really well. In a slightly bigger town with GP anesthesia, about 5-10% of patients got epidurals. The rest had exellent coaching by the nurses and did very well without meds.

You also have to remember that an epidural isn''t always the only option, depending where you deliver. At my hospital, epidurals provide the best pain relief, but you could try nitrous oxide to take the edge off, or you could get a patient-controlled pump with narcotics in it. We preferrably use remifentanil that has a very quick onset and very short half-life so that there would be minimal effect on the baby after delivery. If patients were prepared to feel a fair bit during labour, the remi PCA did a good job of taking the edge off.

And if you are going without an epidural and something happens and the baby needs to be delivered quickly, as long as it''s not an absolute emergency (cord prolapse, major hemorrhage) that needs delivery NOW to save lives, they can often pop in a spinal quickly so that you''re still nice and awake when your baby is born.

Really, I agree that having a set-in-stone birth plan isn''t the best of ideas, but having a general philosophy of how you want things to go and being flexible depending on what arises during labour, you ought to have a pretty good experience. Don''t let anyone push you into anything you feel uncomfortable with, and ask about what other options there are.

Kate

 

[TravelingGal]

Yes, I am in California.

I find, conservative or not, a lot of people prefer to co-sleep because it is easier in the beginning. I don''t believe that co-sleeping alone makes a kid more attached. So many other factors in life. I have two friends that still co-sleep with their sons. One (now 2.5 years old) is extremely attached to his mother, crying when she is not around, refuses to be fed even by his father, and has serious stranger anxiety. The other (1.5 yrs) loves his mom but would rather play with dad, other kids, and is interested in new people.

The difference, IMHO is probably in personality and the fact that the latter child had to be put into home daycare because the mother went back to work. The former child''s mom stays at home.

It''s not just one thing that forms your kid''s personality...it''s really everything.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 10/29/2008 12:28:22 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Yes, I am in California.

I find, conservative or not, a lot of people prefer to co-sleep because it is easier in the beginning. I don't believe that co-sleeping alone makes a kid more attached. So many other factors in life. I have two friends that still co-sleep with their sons. One (now 2.5 years old) is extremely attached to his mother, crying when she is not around, refuses to be fed even by his father, and has serious stranger anxiety. The other (1.5 yrs) loves his mom but would rather play with dad, other kids, and is interested in new people.

The difference, IMHO is probably in personality and the fact that the latter child had to be put into home daycare because the mother went back to work. The former child's mom stays at home.

It's not just one thing that forms your kid's personality...it's really everything.

You are totally correct. Co-sleeping when added as a co-variate into a regression predicts a small but unique increase in attachment bonding. So you are right, it isn't the only cause, or even the biggest one (those would be parent responsiveness and child temperament) but it is a contributor.

And I should also clarify that I mean "attachment" in a specific social psychological sense--basically a child's "belief" or mental model that their parent is responsive and available--not in the sense of whom the child prefers to spend time with. With this definition the first child you described who is "attached" to the mother is actually insecurely attached (just based on the little bit of information you gave), whereas the child who feels comfortable meeting new people is actually securely attached (again, from the little detail you provided). A secure attachment to one's caregiver (i.e., a belief or understanding that the caregiver is responsive and available, which even little babies have in a very primitive manner) is a major predictor of many positive social and other life outcomes: greater social confidence, greater resilience to stress, better quality romantic and social relationships, to name but a few. Such bonds create a stable base from which kids feel free to take chances, face risks of rejection, pursue life goals, all knowing that the attachment figure is there to catch them if they fall. Co-sleeping happens to contribute a small amount of variance to secure attachment, perhaps because it allows the caregiver to respond so quickly to baby's needs, but as you point out there are myriad other causes as well, most of which are much bigger contributors in the long run.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 10/29/2008 12:53:01 PM
Author: dreamer_dachsie

Date: 10/29/2008 12:28:22 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Yes, I am in California.

I find, conservative or not, a lot of people prefer to co-sleep because it is easier in the beginning. I don''t believe that co-sleeping alone makes a kid more attached. So many other factors in life. I have two friends that still co-sleep with their sons. One (now 2.5 years old) is extremely attached to his mother, crying when she is not around, refuses to be fed even by his father, and has serious stranger anxiety. The other (1.5 yrs) loves his mom but would rather play with dad, other kids, and is interested in new people.

The difference, IMHO is probably in personality and the fact that the latter child had to be put into home daycare because the mother went back to work. The former child''s mom stays at home.

It''s not just one thing that forms your kid''s personality...it''s really everything.

You are totally correct. Co-sleeping when added as a co-variate into a regression predicts a small but unique increase in attachment bonding. So you are right, it isn''t the only cause, or even the biggest one (those would be parent responsiveness and child temperament) but it is a contributor.

And I should also clarify that I mean ''attachment'' in a specific social psychological sense--basically a child''s ''belief'' or mental model that their parent is responsive and available--not in the sense of whom the child prefers to spend time with. With this definition the first child you described who is ''attached'' to the mother is actually insecurely attached (just based on the little bit of information you gave), whereas the child who feels comfortable meeting new people is actually securely attached (again, from the little detail you provided). A secure attachment to one''s caregiver (i.e., a belief or understanding that the caregiver is responsive and available, which even little babies have in a very primitive manner) is a major predictor of many positive social and other life outcomes: greater social confidence, greater resilience to stress, better quality romantic and social relationships, to name but a few. Such bonds create a stable base from which kids feel free to take chances, face risks of rejection, pursue life goals, all knowing that the attachment figure is there to catch them if they fall. Co-sleeping happens to contribute a small amount of variance to secure attachment, perhaps because it allows the caregiver to respond so quickly to baby''s needs, but as you point out there are myriad other causes as well, most of which are much bigger contributors in the long run.

Sorry, I knew what you meant, but was using attached in the other context.

Yup, because I believe it''s such a small factor, I opted to go the route I believe means rest for our family. Better rest, better dispositions for all (and I''m a much better caregiver when I get my sleep!)

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 10/29/2008 12:59:16 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Yup, because I believe it''s such a small factor, I opted to go the route I believe means rest for our family. Better rest, better dispositions for all (and I''m a much better caregiver when I get my sleep!)

Exactly! I totally think that mom''s happiness and family happiness are more important than doing every little thing to try to be perfect, whatever that is supposed to mean! I mostly want to co-sleep because I am lazy and don''t want to go to another room to BF, but if it is annoying at all, baby is off to his/her room for sure

Some of my friends liked baby in their room and found it easier, others didn''t like it. Most said that babies are loud sleepers and that was just too hard to cope with! haha... I believe it. If my 10 lb dogs can snore that loud then I am sure babies can too! My other friend co-slept until recently but her hubby was a light sleeper and went in a different room... even though she likes the co-sleeping and find it easy for BFing, she wants her hubby back so baby is in his own room now... c''est la vie!

 

[Upgradable]

Tried the co-sleep thing for about three nights. I was a wreck expecting to roll over on and smother the baby, plus any little noise he made I was hyper-aware of. But then any time he was quiet I was sure he''d suffocated. Across the hall in his room in a bassinet worked best for us. Also tossed the baby monitor away unless I was downstairs doing laundry. I didn''t end up fretting over every little sound. He let me know when he needed me, and was sleeping through the night at 8 weeks.

Another decision that sounded better in theory: cloth diapers. I was adamant about not cluttering up the landfills. So, tried first two months on cloth before switching to disposable. Someone should have told me that the first two months are the WORST regarding expecting a diaper to actually HOLD all the contents. If I would have waited until about month 4-6 to start cloth I probably would have been able to stick with it. Oh, the things we think we know!

 

[robbie3982]

Did anyone feel really woozy early on? Last night and then today for the last half hour or so I''ve been feeling very woozy, almost like I might pass out. I don''t think it could be that I need to eat since I just had lunch like an hour ago and I''m not dehydrated (sit here drinking a cup of water all day and always refill when it''s empty). Any suggestions on how to make it stop? Is this something to be concerned about or just a normal pregnancy symptom?


4w4d

 

[neatfreak]

WOW I go to a doctor's appointment (which everything looked good BTW) and come back to a few pages of discussion!

Anyway, the "too posh to push" concept is a teeeensy bit offensive to those of us who probably will/have made the decision to get epidurals IMO. And I think it usually refers to elective c-sections rather than pain relief (c-sections DO carry higher risks than vaginal births, which is why I am not an advocate of it unless necessary). Now I have done a lot of research on the topic, and I don't have too much of a choice because with twins they want to be able to do a section ASAP if they need to, but at the same time I probably would get one when the time comes anyway.

Yes natural is great if you want it and are relatively comfortable. But at the same time, a stressful birth can be bad for you and the baby as well, so there is that factor too. Just like many women opt for water births or other things to help them destress during labor, some women opt for pain meds. I certainly don't think there is a problem with that. I think the problem is that many people want to impose THEIR preferences on others. And that just ain't right no matter what side of the "natural vs. hospital" debate you are on...so just keep that in mind please when ranting about women who choose to get epis...

 

[mela lu]

CUTE BELLY SHOTS COURTNEY!!!!!

DD - I'm sorry to hear how much loss your mom went through

. Luckily, she got you (silver lining Dreamer)!!

If you don't mind me asking, what was the cause of the 20 wk loss? The 2 month loss?

ETA - sorry if you took offense NF. I certainly was not trying to insinuate that I was placing judgment on those opting for an epi. Like I said, I'm not ruling one out myself...I was more referring to the people I know who are not PG or anywhere close to wanting children imposing their "finality" on the subject without a whole lot of research to base their opinion. Again, did not intent to come across offensively. I was feeling very judged by them about wanting to try for a natural first.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 10/29/2008 1:46:52 PM
Author: mela lu
CUTE BELLY SHOTS COURTNEY!!!!!

DD - I'm sorry to hear how much loss your mom went through

. Luckily, she got you (silver lining Dreamer)!!

If you don't mind me asking, what was the cause of the 20 wk loss? The 2 month loss?

That was me not DD unless her mom had the same issue and I missed it! Her 20 week loss they still weren't sure. She had been bleeding for a few weeks and I believe the semi-official diagnosis was that the placenta wasn't doing it's job. But that was almost 30 years ago so we really don't know. And my little brother had a non-genetic heart/lung defect that they didn't find out about until the birth. Again, something that probably could have been avoided today. Very sad, but my mom is a very strong woman as a result!

And don't worry honey, I've been crying at commercials for months now! Just know that it is perfectly normal to be irrational, upset, and cry at the drop of a hat when you are preggers! I even cried at Walmart one day because they wouldn't accept my coupon. Seriously!

 

[mela lu]

oh crap. sorry about the mix-up! D''oh! "baby-brain"? lol

wow. 30 years - we''ve come along way. My condolences to your mom for her losses.

What a tough thing to go through - twice.

NF - I remember your coupon incident...and I can only imagine what these hormona''s are capable of!!!

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 10/29/2008 1:46:52 PM
Author: mela lu
CUTE BELLY SHOTS COURTNEY!!!!!

DD - I''m sorry to hear how much loss your mom went through

. Luckily, she got you (silver lining Dreamer)!!

If you don''t mind me asking, what was the cause of the 20 wk loss? The 2 month loss?

ETA - sorry if you took offense NF. I certainly was not trying to insinuate that I was placing judgment on those opting for an epi. Like I said, I''m not ruling one out myself...I was more referring to the people I know who are not PG or anywhere close to wanting children imposing their ''finality'' on the subject without a whole lot of research to base their opinion. Again, did not intent to come across offensively. I was feeling very judged by them about wanting to try for a natural first.

And that was my point as well. Hopefully I also didn''t offend NF. Obviously I have nothing against epis...because as I said, it was niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice.

 

[neatfreak]

TG and Mela I know no one intended to offend at all, no worries! I know that there is a large contingent of natural childbirth proponents here and that is awesome, but I just wanted to point out that some of us who think they will/choose epis HAVE done research and aren''t being pushed into it!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 10/29/2008 1:46:42 PM
...Just like many women opt for water births or other things to help them destress during labor, some women opt for pain meds....

NF I agree with you completely, if this is what makes a woman feel safe and secure in her labour then I support it wholeheartedly. I'm sorry if it came accross any other way. No ranting intended!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 10/29/2008 2:01:55 PM
Author: neatfreak
TG and Mela I know no one intended to offend at all, no worries! I know that there is a large contingent of natural childbirth proponents here and that is awesome, but I just wanted to point out that some of us who think they will/choose epis HAVE done research and aren't being pushed into it!

Hee hee... I see the group as much more supportive of epis and hospital birth than the other way around! Funny how one's own perspective colours things, eh?

 

[mela lu]

no worries Neat! I know you''ve done your due diligence and are very education and involved

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 10/29/2008 2:07:16 PM
Author: dreamer_dachsie

Date: 10/29/2008 2:01:55 PM

Author: neatfreak

TG and Mela I know no one intended to offend at all, no worries! I know that there is a large contingent of natural childbirth proponents here and that is awesome, but I just wanted to point out that some of us who think they will/choose epis HAVE done research and aren''t being pushed into it!

Hee hee... I see the group as much more supportive of epis and hospital birth than the other way around! Funny how one''s own perscpetive colours things, eh?

Lol. Yes very true...since I work in healthcare research I see far fewer people around me opting to go natural, so that''s where I come from!

But really, I think it''s great that overall everyone here is supportive no matter what decisions you make for your birth.

 

[Dreamer_D]

NF what percentage of twins are born vaginally? When I imagine having twins I imagine just having a c-section because it seems like a complex process for two to get out in one birth! I wondered how many do come out that way..

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 10/29/2008 1:40:16 PM
Author: robbie3982
Did anyone feel really woozy early on? Last night and then today for the last half hour or so I've been feeling very woozy, almost like I might pass out. I don't think it could be that I need to eat since I just had lunch like an hour ago and I'm not dehydrated (sit here drinking a cup of water all day and always refill when it's empty). Any suggestions on how to make it stop? Is this something to be concerned about or just a normal pregnancy symptom?


4w4d

I am not sure what you mean by woozy, but my brand of m/s was feeling a little like being mildly motion sick.. could be that. If you mean more like dizzy then I didn't have that but I have read it is common. Has to do something with the change in blood pressure and blood volume and hormones? I think the suggested method of making it stop is to sit down with your head between your knees or breath in a paper bag... and try not to worry about it too much since that will affect your blood pressure and breathing too!

 

[mela lu]

My girlfriend felt woozy in her last trimester, and it was due to low blood pressure. Not sure about right now at 4.5wks.
Certainly rest up. These are hard weeks coming up

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 10/29/2008 2:16:33 PM
Author: dreamer_dachsie
NF what percentage of twins are born vaginally? When I imagine having twins I imagine just having a c-section because it seems like a complex process for two to get out in one birth! I wondered how many do come out that way..

I believe it's about half actually. For my type of twins the rate is a bit higher since they have fewer risks and are more likely to make it past 34 weeks which is the age at which they'll usually allow you to try for a VB.

Basically it really depends on the position of Twin A. If Twin A is anything other than head down, it's game over. Pretty much no doctor will touch a breech delivery if Twin A is breech. If Twin A is head down, then most OB's will allow you to try for a VB for both. There is about a 5% risk of having to have a section for Twin B in that case, but for the most part Twin B will use the extra room to move head down or they can be manipulated head down. Or, doctors are fairly comfortable with a breech birth for Baby B.

 

[Upgradable]

Okay, freak, now my hoochie hurts! I''m not sure if I''d pray for baby A to be head down or not.

 

[robbie3982]

DD, I mean more like lightheaded feel like I faint kind of feeling. Thanks for the suggestion. It seems to have let up for the moment, but I''ll be sure to try that when it comes back.

Mela, I wonder if my blood pressure is low. Perhaps I should try eating some salty snacks when it happens again to see if that helps. Worst case scenario, I get to eat potato chips

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 10/29/2008 2:33:36 PM
Author: robbie3982
DD, I mean more like lightheaded feel like I faint kind of feeling. Thanks for the suggestion. It seems to have let up for the moment, but I''ll be sure to try that when it comes back.


Mela, I wonder if my blood pressure is low. Perhaps I should try eating some salty snacks when it happens again to see if that helps. Worst case scenario, I get to eat potato chips

Sounds yummy to me! Can''t hurt right?

 

[mela lu]

YAH! yummy salty snacks washed down with cool fresh water.

Mention this to your Doc next visit...so they can check your BP.