boston_jeff
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Cushion Question for Cehrabehra and Others
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Cehrabehra
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I think everything is subjective - even the BS is subjective to its own biases... seriously. I don''t think my appraiser JUST used his eyes, I think there several factors that go into it... but I could find out more. I never thought about using bscope for my stone so it didn''t really occur to me to ask about it.
boston_jeff
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Cehrabehra
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boston_jeff
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Cehrabehra
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Nope. I stuck it in my bra and went to about 20 different jewelry stores and said, "I bought this stone and I don''t think I like it, can you show me the best stones you have to see if I can find something better?" and I compared it to everything... and the only thing out there that was equal was a 2.5 carat from tiffany that was 60k and the only stone that might have beaten it was a 3 carat round that was 40k.
I decided that yes, there is probably better out there - but I cannot afford it anyway LOL
I used my eyes. I took a thousand pictures.
Turns out my eyes were dead on to the IS and ASET, but without the stamp of approval for a vendor I''ve suffered from "lack of validation syndrome" LOL It makes me doubt and doubt a stone that I already know I love and I''ve already compared to everything I wanted to and it was FINE so my problem is.... it isn''t a superideal round brilliant. Ugh. Not that I wanted that!!! But PS has a way of making you think nothing else is as good. And that isn''t true - you just have to define for *yourself* what "good" is
Now... that''s what I did. I would recommend an appraiser LOL
BTW I told you I''d get back to you on the brilliance/dispersion/scintillation analysis of my stone, and yes it was based on eyes and experience but the brilliance and scintillation were verified with the IS and ASET. The stone is just a very firey stone. And as for the scint, I can see why it just got "good" on scint... because it doesn''t bang on and off like others tones - it sparkles JUST as much (or more) but it doesn''t turn off in between sparkles.
I have ALL of the sarin data now, but it''s of course assuming the stone is round so while accurate it draws faulty conclusions and it''ll take me weeks to sort through this... weeks and help from others LOL I am very curious to know how the angles on my stone interact...
boston_jeff
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I hope that you enjoy the process of sifting through all the new information you have. However, based on your proclivity to feel unsatisfied, I would just counsel you to make sure that you constantly remind yourself of how much you love the actual stone, rather than the numbers. The numbers should just be a way for you to appreciate your stone even more!
In other news, I finally found a stone with a table in the low-mid 50s and depth in the mid 60s.
I am going to see if the vendor I am working with can call it in. I would like to avoid the purchase/inspect game.
In other news, I finally found a stone with a table in the low-mid 50s and depth in the mid 60s.
I am going to see if the vendor I am working with can call it in. I would like to avoid the purchase/inspect game.
Cehrabehra
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boston_jeff
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Cehrabehra
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Nah - it has 8 pav mains reaching the culet... but the LGF are pretty long (relative to other cushions, but somewhat short relative to a round) and the 4 main ones are pretty narrow and almost evenly sized with the 4 corner ones so this is almost like a square H&A type cut but with a little shorter lgf and probably without the optical symmetry. It''s the same cut as the stone in your avatar but because the facets are more slender it looks less chunky.Date: 3/8/2007 12:53:11 AM
Author: boston_jeff
What is everyone''s best guess at the facet pattern on xraydoc''s 4.71ct cushion? I think it is hard to tell because of the shallow depth (5
Cehrabehra
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Okay... this is another shot of that cushion, the green dots show you the 8 pav mains, the orange dots show you how low the LGF hit (and as a result how slender the mains are).
If there was only ONE difference between modern and antique cuts in both OMC and OEC type stones.... it would be LGF length. Now, there are other differences, but if you had to point to just one.... compare facetfire''s OEC with a modern round brilliant.... the chunky look her stone has is because her LGF are hiding. If you want chunky facets, you want short LGF. If you want modern slender sparkle, you want long LGF. And in a cushion you really have your choice. My stone has long ones compared to a genuine antique - but much much much shorter than xraydoc''s.
If there was only ONE difference between modern and antique cuts in both OMC and OEC type stones.... it would be LGF length. Now, there are other differences, but if you had to point to just one.... compare facetfire''s OEC with a modern round brilliant.... the chunky look her stone has is because her LGF are hiding. If you want chunky facets, you want short LGF. If you want modern slender sparkle, you want long LGF. And in a cushion you really have your choice. My stone has long ones compared to a genuine antique - but much much much shorter than xraydoc''s.
boston_jeff
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This is probably what most of the 62-65 depth/58-60 table stones I have found look like, and why my vendor told me those stones are not worth calling in based on what I am looking for.
Interestingly enough, xraydoc mentioned that he thought his stone was cut by someone that normally does RBs, and that his stone started out as a RB and got recut. Might explain the LGF size and the overall look of the stone.
Interestingly enough, xraydoc mentioned that he thought his stone was cut by someone that normally does RBs, and that his stone started out as a RB and got recut. Might explain the LGF size and the overall look of the stone.
boston_jeff
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Cehrabehra
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yeah I remember reading that, but I kinda doubt it... they would have had to cut WAY too much of the stone away to make a square where a round was... better to make a super fat oval and retain weight.
I don''t know what the table is on xray''s stone but it doesn''t look tiny that''s for sure. I have no idea what is to be had out in NY or wherever... all I see is what is posted and much of that doesn''t have enough info to begin with :/
Cehrabehra
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Cehrabehra
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Here''s a link to my stone... http://www.bluenile.com/diamonds_details.asp?__fun_frm=i&pid=LD00436768&filter_id=0
boston_jeff
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Cehrabehra
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::shrug:: couldn''t tell ya. No idea what criteria they use.... it does say that it is cut for maximum brilliance and my stone is no slouch... but I can''t help you with what BN considers for their cut grades. I can say that I have yet to find another old mine brilliant ANYWHERE in any inventory... not to say mine is the only one, but it''s not common. Makes me very nervous for if I ever need to replace it
Cehrabehra
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Nicrez
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Not to be a wet blanket, but I think when grading fancies anyone (including Blue Nile) is morre lenient. Accroding to the specs on Cehra''s stone that is a very well cut cushion! I would have rated it that easily. Remember that these stones are old, and can be deep as the 70''s, or shallow. Most of it was based on the cutter and the rough shape. Standardization of cut on cushions is mostly recent, so don''t expect RBC like details. Tolkowski helped the round brilliant, but no one really did anything for fancies yet.
Again, let your eyes be the guide. I have seen some dead ones, and some live ones, but the best are not based on numbers, but the interaction and play of the crown and pav angles, as well as the facet arrangement. Unlike other fancies, this cut arrangement (as Cehra so perfectly showed) on cushions is so unstandard that every variation is in the mix and can make a shallow shone die or a deep stone pop. Three factors now must be considered, so you can''t do that online without really having a leap of faith and seeing it in person, I think.
Cehra, you get my Metal of Valor for buying a cushion online. Seriously. You are a rockstar!
Cehrabehra
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LOL! It called to me... and yes, they do have different grading for fancies - they dont'' even give an option for excellent cut like they do for rounds.Date: 3/8/2007 1:33:01 PM
Author: Nicrez
Not to be a wet blanket, but I think when grading fancies anyone (including Blue Nile) is morre lenient. Accroding to the specs on Cehra''s stone that is a very well cut cushion! I would have rated it that easily. Remember that these stones are old, and can be deep as the 70''s, or shallow. Most of it was based on the cutter and the rough shape. Standardization of cut on cushions is mostly recent, so don''t expect RBC like details. Tolkowski helped the round brilliant, but no one really did anything for fancies yet.
Again, let your eyes be the guide. I have seen some dead ones, and some live ones, but the best are not based on numbers, but the interaction and play of the crown and pav angles, as well as the facet arrangement. Unlike other fancies, this cut arrangement (as Cehra so perfectly showed) on cushions is so unstandard that every variation is in the mix and can make a shallow shone die or a deep stone pop. Three factors now must be considered, so you can''t do that online without really having a leap of faith and seeing it in person, I think.
Cehra, you get my Metal of Valor for buying a cushion online. Seriously. You are a rockstar!
And not all of these stones are old. Mine was cut last year and has a faceted girdle. And yes, it is based on the rough shape and there is no standardization even *now* with these newly cut stones.
I would LOVE to be on a team to discover the cushion secrets but it is a bit over my head to undertake it alone which is what I *feel* like I''ve been doing for months now lol
I think one of the reasons that my stone does well is because it is still in Garry''s volcanic paradise LOL Meaning.... the inverse relationship between crown and pavillion is still there... the pavillion on my stone is shallow while the crown is super steep. In a round it might give a fisheye?? but on a cushion with a small table... oh I dunno, I''m talking out my ass here LOL
the thing that gets me is that cushions aren''t different from rounds other than that they aren''t 360*of symmetry... all shapes have a magic combination of facets and I actually think cushions could break through if someone in the know actually cared.
boston_jeff
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Of course I'm not saying that BN gives VG to any cushion! In fact, the reason I asked the question in the first place was because I found a few cushions on BN that looked like they have very nice numbers for an antique-style cushion yet were only graded "Good" by BN. My thinking was that it seems that BN basically uses depth/table to determine cut grade, and likely applies the same depth/table criteria to all the cushions in its system, regardless of faceting (i.e., I was thinking that BN set its cut parameters based on the specs of the more common modifieds or 4pav, and would penalize antique-cuts for being on the deeper side with a small table). We both know that would be a mistake since different style cushions should have different numbers to maximize their beauty. The fact that your stone was graded VG suggests that assumption might not be completely true (that's why I asked what your cut grade was!), and that maybe BN might be doing something a little more sophisticated with respect to cut grade. In fact, what may be happening is that the stones I have seen would have been VG except were downgraded to "Good" because, unlike your stone, many of them are either VG/G or G/VG.
My point was not that the fact that a cushion gets a VG on BN is meaningless; more like the fact that a antique-style cushion gets a G on BN should not be weighted too heavily, because it could be a result of BN applying numbers to the stone that is not really appropriate for the style.
Let me try again:
1. Most people on this board have made the point that numbers do not tell the whole story with cushions, especially with antique-cuts. Therefore, any grading of cushions by the numbers, at least at this point, is questionable (you have made this point many times). BN does not look at the stone to grade them, so while some VG cut stones will be beautiful (like yours), others might not be (e.g., an antique-style cushion that has good numbers for a non-antique, but is too shallow or has a large table). Since we do not have enough information about cushion angles yet, you need to look at these stones to determine their performance, and BN does not do this.
2. Second, BN appears to only use two numbers: depth and table %. Even if the numbers mean something, cushions obviously cannot be graded based on these two numbers alone + pol/sym. Again, some VG stones may be beautiful, but others may be duds because BN neither looks at the stone nor considers the other numbers that you are so interested in (crown height, crown angles, pavillion angles, etc.). Likewise, stones rated "Good" could be beautiful but fall outside these simple parameters.
Based on the above I am surprised that you would come to the defense of such a simple cut-grading system for cushions. While the system recognized the beauty of your stone, because it is based on such little information I am sure that it overstates/understates the beauty of others.
Hope that explains my point.
ETA: Nicrez beat me to it, with more eloquence. Cehra's stone is well-cut and beautiful, but probably not for the same reasons it got a VG from BlueNile
Cehrabehra
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oh... and where else was I going to get it? I called 20 places in the phone book and 3/4 of them didn''t even know what a cushion was. Just recently the BBB here got ONE modern cushion - and I have to say they really are pretty stones.... all of the fans out there of these modern cushions with the kind of X sort of look to them, the larger tables, and not as deep... they''re gorgeous. It''s no surprise to me that they''re the leading cushion shape at this time. No matter how long it gets - no bowtie. I still don''t like those crushed ice type that are so easy to find online though... maybe there''s a good one somewhere... all I know is that for my stone the gods thought I deserved it because it was a total fluke and I haven''t seen another one like it LOL ::knock wood:: may I always be so worthy!!Date: 3/8/2007 1:33:01 PM
Author: Nicrez
Cehra, you get my Metal of Valor for buying a cushion online. Seriously. You are a rockstar!
Cehrabehra
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I have to break this up into bite sized bits and I''m lousy at addressing things in order so.... LOL
I don''t know that I am coming to the defense of their cut grading system. In fact I thought it was pretty irrelevant when I was looking at the stone - though I admit feeling bolstered by the highest VG... but I don''t know if my stone being a "old mine" brilliant plays a part in looser parameters or ??
Maybe tools such as aset and IS were used to determine that and BN or the suppliers withold such info? I mean... there was a sarin run on the stone (you have to request it) and they blacked out some of the info...
And at this point there is no real and actual cut grading system for cushions, so having a simple one in place by BN at least attempts to rate thse - but doesn''t really explain what their criteria are. According to most cut charts my stone doesn''t score well because it is TOO DEEP at 66%.
Cehrabehra
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that''s possible too... it could be ruled out by only looking at stones that are vg/vg and seeing if any have a less than vg cut rating... or seeing if any stones that are NOT vg/vg have a vg cut rating... but all of this only applies to BN and if you want a vendor to source your stone, it might be in your worst interests to look for stones on BN. Sometimes they can be sourced, and sometimes they cannot.. mine could not. Of course if you''re paying $50 a pop for a vendor to pull in stones at your request (mark would go view them in person) it seems just about as reasonable as buying the stone and seeing it for yourself. you do have 30 days to have it appraised and take it around to look at it, but no upgrade. If you discover after bended knee that your girlfriend hates it, at least with a vendor with upgrade policy you could trade it in LOL I had MAJOR anxiety in the last couple days before the 30 days ran out.... I had major anxiety waiting for the ASET and IS too... what if it isn''t good enough? LOL I mean I like it but ps eyes can be harsh.... if you purchase from a vendor, you have all of that stuff BEFORE you purchase... before you even see it with your eyes... Unfortunately this is NOT a cut you can go around and see a lot of. In fact, you could go all over and never see another like it. Boston is close enough to NYC that I would make an appointment to meet mark in person and see if he can show you several things...
boston_jeff
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The only reason I said you were coming the defense of the grading system is because I basically wrote that I thought the grading system was irrelevant (as you suggested above), but your response was "I don''t know why you would say that." But we agree, so that''s all that really matters!
I also wrote that it may be possible that BN is doing something more sophisticated (IS, Sarin, etc.), which could explain why your stone gets a VG and other stones with similar depth/table get a G. However, this section of their site seems to suggest otherwise... BN''s cut grading criteria
Cehrabehra
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Cehrabehra
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boston_jeff
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It basically comes down to the fact that any grading system based on numbers should be questioned thoroughly, and without disclosure by the grading entity as to what the criteria are you can't really trust it to sort stones for you. The fact that your stone would get penalized is case in point.
Cehrabehra
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if what you''re trying to get to is that "good" cut stones are okay to look at, I would... but if I were replacing the stone I have I wouldn''t do it on BN. I doubt BN will tell you the criteria they use... and with cushions its hard to say - garry is always talking about an inverse relationship between crown and pav angles... and if you get any of those aset experts to show you their round cut charts -the area of focus is very small, but there are many other ''weird'' stones out there that could qualify as beautiful light returning stones. When you have a square stone with optical symmetry you can narrow it to one crown and one pav angle.... when you have a long stone you have two sets to deal with (and machines that don''t want to give you anything but the average lol). Unfortunately you''re not going to get really good angle info without a proper vendor or an appraiser. BN will not supply you that. And who knows if it would do any good at this point anyway. So many other factors like girdle thickness and and and just... a long list of factors... even rounds are not totally standardized because the drive to keep the most of the rough and the little tiny things that throw the plan anyway, mess with it lol
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