Cushion Question for Cehrabehra and Others

[elmo]

About $11K and 8.6x7.5, depth mid 60s table 50, slightly large culet. I expect it may be the same folks who cut your stone, and I think I've seen one myself - potentially quite nice. Small-table traditional eight-main cushions rock!

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 3/2/2007 2:40:36 PM
Author: elmo
About $11K and 8.6x7.5, depth mid 60s table 50, slightly large culet. I expect it may be the same folks who cut your stone, and I think I''ve seen one myself - potentially quite nice. Small-table traditional eight-main cushions rock!

wow that''s a good price too!! Is it still for sale? Do you have a link to the stone? Or are you considering it for yourself? hehe This one is more square... mine is 7.5 wide also but a mm longer. mine has a 53 table - I bet this one is really nice with that 50 and the awesome proportions and ratio! I wonder what the crown is - if you call BN they''ll tell you cause they have really cruddy sarin''s they refer to (most of the info is blacked out but they will tell you crown height)

 

[boston_jeff]

I know that if I need EX/EX I am better off with searching for a modern cut. However, I don't like the look of the "quad" style cushions.

So, I'm looking for an antique-cut that doesn't sacrifice too much in some of these other categories. Maybe my concern with "good" symmetry comes from all the EX/EX ideal rounds we see here on PS; even though I know what I am looking for is a totally different animal from a RB it is sometimes hard to separate in my head. I definitely understand what you are saying about not stressing too much over those details in an antique-cut stone and worrying more about overall look and performance.

OK-- so I'll ask another question that you will probably yell at me for asking (because clearly I am not getting the point that you can't really judge these stones on specs)-- based on your comments that "small table cushions rock," does that meant that an antique cushion with a 60% table is likely to not rock?!?

And again, thank you for all your help!

Jeff

 

[elmo]

I honestly don't know what to tell you about a 60 table cushion - haven't seen enough. That's where a pro can help you better. I want an antique look and even though there are numerous antiques with larger tables, part of the signature look to me is the improbably small table and tall crown, so I've restricted searches to that. I did see a really nice stone in the high 50s, nice blocky appearance but not an antique look.

p.s. It's not what you want so it's pretty funny to me that it looks like your avatar could be one of those modern cushions

.

 

[boston_jeff]

Yeah, DiaGem already pointed out my hypocrisy...

Have you seen Fatafelice''s antique cushion? Hers is the only reason why I''m considering 60% tables.

 

[kellyfish]

Did I miss something? Where did fatafelice get that incredible cushion? I'm looking for an antique-style cushion square, too, in the 1.5-2.25 ct range. Those are beautiful pics. Lotta love showing for that stone!

 

[boston_jeff]

Hey Kelly...

I think she got it through WF.

Elmo-- better on the avatar?

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 3/2/2007 2:51:58 PM
Author: boston_jeff
I know that if I need EX/EX I am better off with searching for a modern cut. However, I don''t like the look of the ''quad'' style cushions.

So, I''m looking for an antique-cut that doesn''t sacrifice too much in some of these other categories. Maybe my concern with ''good'' symmetry comes from all the EX/EX ideal rounds we see here on PS; even though I know what I am looking for is a totally different animal from a RB it is sometimes hard to separate in my head. I definitely understand what you are saying about not stressing too much over those details in an antique-cut stone and worrying more about overall look and performance.

OK-- so I''ll ask another question that you will probably yell at me for asking (because clearly I am not getting the point that you can''t really judge these stones on specs)-- based on your comments that ''small table cushions rock,'' does that meant that an antique cushion with a 60% table is likely to not rock?!?

And again, thank you for all your help!

Jeff

the larger tables do two things... one.... is that depending on the crown angle, the crown height could be smaller and there may be less fire resulting from that - or not. But the other reason is that, depending on how long the LGF are, you may be able to see them through the table without tilting. Now, in round brilliants you can most definitely see the LGF sticking in under the table, but in the really awesome antique cuts the LGF are very short and hidden way under the crown facets. This is one of the BIGGEST differences between what you see in an OEC and a round brilliant - chunky vs splintered.

you are more likely to have your chunkiness broken up somewhat if you can see your LGF and assuming that all of the LGF are the same (lol which they *aren''t*), the bigger the table, the more you can see them. The longer the LGF are, the more splintered the fire will be.... so if you get a stone with really long LGF and a broader table, you are then leaning toward a square H&A. If you go with really short LGF and a tiny table, you are getting more toward the antique look where you look into the table and just see the 8 pav mains.

It would be hard I think to find a newly cut stone that has *super* short lgf (though I''m sure they''re out there) but finding a smaller table will help with that. Plus big crowns are just fun... in my opinion of course LOL If you look at the close pics of FF''s cushion, you can see her LGF - but that isn''t a bad thing at all... just makes it a tad more modern and for some that''s a good thing! Also - her culet is sl large as well... I really don''t think you need to be afraid of a sl large culet. Or at least be open to it and rule them out one by one.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 3/2/2007 3:22:52 PM
Author: boston_jeff
Hey Kelly...

I think she got it through WF.

Elmo-- better on the avatar?

lmao!! I thought he was saying this new one was the modern cushion and I was going to say no way but didn''t want to be overly argumentative Haha

 

[boston_jeff]

Thanks Cehra,

When it comes to cushions, the LGF issue goes a little over my head. I''m not sure what I''m looking for--i.e., when you say you can see the LGF''s in FF''s cushion I''ll just have to take your word for it, because I don''t see it--I don''t know what LGFs look like in an antique cushion, I guess. What about silverlilly''s stone? Similar, or shorter/better hidden LGFs?

 

[Cehrabehra]

Okay - this is a pic of my stone.... see where I circled? that''s where you can see the lgf poking through under the table... and you can see them all the way around the stone. It isn''t a big deal, I probably would have preferred they tuck under more. And see the rectangle? That is a reflection of the culet - kozibe effect. Another fun thing about the older cushions with small tables and big crowns. In DG''s stones you can see like 16 of them all throughout the crown - totally amazing!!

See, if the crown height is 20% with a 70% table vs 20% with a 50% table, the crown ANGLES are going to be suuuuuper steep with the 70% table and even though the crown is high, not a lot of light is going to bounce into them. If the crown height is 5% with a 70% table vs a 50% table the 50% table might just have light pour straight through without a lot of facet interaction and you wouldn''t get as much fire. Okay heck - even with the 70% table it wouldn''t be great but the angle itself might be better. The crown angles interact the same as they do in rounds... but you have a long side and a short side to deal with - and they might each have different crown angles and differnet pav angles. not to mention good luck actually GETTING those angles or having anyone take them seriously lol

The physics aka numbers, for cushions is THERE to be understood, but no one has bothered. They did rounds, they did princesses, they''re doing asschers.... cushions may be last because there are so many illdefined qualities in the cut alone. But they are getting pretty popular so you''re seeing like the square h&a and some others coming out... but there is a vast ocean of uncharted cushion territory.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 3/2/2007 3:44:16 PM
Author: boston_jeff
Thanks Cehra,

When it comes to cushions, the LGF issue goes a little over my head. I''m not sure what I''m looking for--i.e., when you say you can see the LGF''s in FF''s cushion I''ll just have to take your word for it, because I don''t see it--I don''t know what LGFs look like in an antique cushion, I guess. What about silverlilly''s stone? Similar, or shorter/better hidden LGFs?

too funny, I just read your mind when I posted my stone... I dunno about silver''s... I''d have to look at it... but frankly my head is pounding and I''m sick as a dog and I''m going to catch a little nap before thing #2 gets out of school LOL

 

[elmo]

Jeff - nice

.

This will be fun, to see if Jeff's Kelly's or Elmo's dealer delivers first

. I guess the good news for everyone else is that I'm picky and don't have a 4-week deadline

.

Cehra - good discussion of LGFs. It's what makes the middle of Fatafelice's stone look a little busier under the table. Not a bad thing at all but a more modern characteristic. I think the longer halves may provide more brilliance and life, not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[boston_jeff]

Oh, please do! Sorry for having you give that explanation when you are under the weather...

Thanks for taking the time, that at least helps me understand the basic idea. Having seen this I think I wouldn''t be so bothered by a little bit of splintering by the LGFs, as long as they didn''t come in too far into the table and the overall look of the stone was not compromised (like a "touch" of modern in an antique-cut stone).

I''m hoping the vendor gets back to me on Moday telling me that the stone he called in is a stunner.

 

[boston_jeff]

Yes, Elmo-- the vendors are definitely getting tested here! I'm sure there are enough to go around!

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 3/2/2007 4:02:44 PM
Author: boston_jeff
Oh, please do! Sorry for having you give that explanation when you are under the weather...

Thanks for taking the time, that at least helps me understand the basic idea. Having seen this I think I wouldn''t be so bothered by a little bit of splintering by the LGFs, as long as they didn''t come in too far into the table and the overall look of the stone was not compromised (like a ''touch'' of modern in an antique-cut stone).

I''m hoping the vendor gets back to me on Moday telling me that the stone he called in is a stunner.

nah, you''re not making me do anything... I love cushions, especially this particular cut, and I love figuring it out I wondered a few times while helping you in this thread what I might do differently now were I to do it over, and I don''t know what it would be. When I first got my stone it wasn''t exactly what I had expected, but it actually suited me MORE than I expected in many ways and it grew on me big time. I was expecting a larger, rounder culet with more evenly spaced mains... and I would still love astone like that, but I think the extra quirkiness of mine will keep me more entertained over the years, not to mention in person (hard to tell in my hugeo photos lol) it has a very elegant sort of twinkle to it because of the matrixy angles

 

[boston_jeff]

I have come to the realization that it is going to be HARD to wait until Sunday for a report on that stone.

While I'm thinking of it, is 1.17 as a ratio going to look very rectangular/elongated, or will it retain a squarish-rectangle look?

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 3/3/2007 1:51:44 AM
Author: boston_jeff
I have come to the realization that it is going to be HARD to wait until Sunday for a report on that stone.

While I''m thinking of it, is 1.17 as a ratio going to look very rectangular/elongated, or will it retain a squarish-rectangle look?

I really think you''re in the zone for what a classic cushion looks like. IMO 1.15 is THE ratio LOL My stone is 1.26 and is definitely recangular... I think at 1.17 you''re still going to have that awesome cushion ratio. Stone Hunter''s is 1.27 and I forget silverlilly''s but it''s closer to what you''re looking at. a broader range is 1.1-1.2:1 and then outside of that you really get into long and square stones.

 

[boston_jeff]

Wow, I''m getting really restless about the report from the vendor tomorrow. I enjoy learning about diamonds much more than the search (others seem to love the hunt), so I''m hoping to get a huge thumbs up.

I''m thinking that is unlikely, however, because I thought the stone was priced on the low side for an H/VS1 with no major numbers issues, which makes me think that the supplier dropped the asking price because of the optics of the stone, or something that cannot be seen from the cert (bowtie/other angles problems, low crown height, a low "H" in color, etc.). To what extent are tangible factors not included in the cert and intangible factors (the observed beauty of the stone) factored into the prices?

 

[boston_jeff]

Thumbs down on the stone I had called in...

And the search continues...

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 3/5/2007 3:16:08 PM
Author: boston_jeff
Thumbs down on the stone I had called in...

And the search continues...

I missed this... but I went looking for your thread anyway I''m sorry the stone was a disappointment... what was wrong with it? Any others on the horizon? I think there were 2 others in this thread that looked promising...

 

[boston_jeff]

Date: 3/6/2007 4:40:56 PM
Author: Cehrabehra


I missed this... but I went looking for your thread anyway I''m sorry the stone was a disappointment... what was wrong with it? Any others on the horizon? I think there were 2 others in this thread that looked promising...

Hey Cehra,

I was told that the bottom angles were off leading to a pretty dark and lifeless center. Big table probably did not help that.

As far as other options, I have sent 4 other certs to the vendor to take a look at, with varying amounts of potential. Waiting for a response.

Thanks for following up... I have been searching for less than two weeks and am alread getting discouraged.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 3/6/2007 4:55:31 PM
Author: boston_jeff

Date: 3/6/2007 4:40:56 PM
Author: Cehrabehra


I missed this... but I went looking for your thread anyway I''m sorry the stone was a disappointment... what was wrong with it? Any others on the horizon? I think there were 2 others in this thread that looked promising...

Hey Cehra,

I was told that the bottom angles were off leading to a pretty dark and lifeless center. Big table probably did not help that.

As far as other options, I have sent 4 other certs to the vendor to take a look at, with varying amounts of potential. Waiting for a response.

Thanks for following up... I have been searching for less than two weeks and am alread getting discouraged.

I joined pricescope last june and within 2 weeks I was so discouraged I was thinking of having a stone custom cut - part frustration, part newbie arrogance/ignorance LOL I didn''t end up buying my stone until the end of august... so two full months later... The discouraged feeling didn''t go away... in fact to an extent I still have it, which is why I have come to care about the journey for others like yourself.

BTW I just got info back on my stone which is kinda fun... the crown angle on my stone is over 39 LOL And the depth... it''s interesting on these longer stones... and important to remember! The depth on my stone is just over 66% but if you take it the other direction it is under 53%!! So if you''re getting a longer stone and the depth is listed as like 55%, what is the depth the *other* way?

I haven''t finished sorting through all of my numbers, it could take a while... but it is interesting. I wish I could give you a formula but for now we really do just have our eyes... the IS and ASET came out pretty much exactly as I expected they would (the IS is dead on - the aset was a little different) Anyway... just hang in there and it''ll happen. I dunno what is happening in may for that deadline, but what are you going to do if you don''t find THE right stone before that? I would hate for you to settle...

 

[boston_jeff]

I am trying not to think too much about the deadline. I still have at least 3 more weeks before it will present a problem. I could buy at least 3 more weeks on top of that if I put the stone in a temporary setting rather than a custom. I'm still hopeful it will all work out.

A couple of the certs I sent to the vendor noted crown angles > 40 degrees, so I'm thinking that is at least somewhat common for these older style cuts.

What I am finding few and far between (at least based on the certs I can find online) are smaller table stones (with the facet pattern I'm looking at). Most seem to have tables around 60 and depths around 65 (although sometimes even shallower than that). I know a table in the mid-50s does not guarantee a nice stone, nor does a table not in the mid-50s mean the stone is ugly, but it would be nice to at least have the opportunity to look at a few stones closer to the 55 table 65 depth "sweet spot."

My options would open up a little if I was willing to go I/J, but I'm not (because of my GF's preferences). They would also open up a little if my budget was not so fixed, but it is.

So, I am hoping the vendor is able to source some options (none thus far), or that they are able to call in a few of the certs I passed along with better success than the first one. I feel a little annoying sending certs over to them rather than leaving them alone with their search, but I don't want to let a good one go by just because I did not want to seem too psycho.

Cehra-- What is your table%? Do you think your stone is about as deep as you would want to go?

Also, what do you think the chances are that "Good" polish on a stone like this would be eye-visible?

 

[boston_jeff]

Found a fun cert I thought I would share-- obviously not related to my search

It's a 6.10 J/SI1
46% Table!
56% Depth!
12.85x10.90
VG/G
Flour: Faint

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 3/6/2007 8:25:03 PM
Author: boston_jeff
I am trying not to think too much about the deadline. I still have at least 3 more weeks before it will present a problem. I could buy at least 3 more weeks on top of that if I put the stone in a temporary setting rather than a custom. I''m still hopeful it will all work out.

A couple of the certs I sent to the vendor noted crown angles > 40 degrees, so I''m thinking that is at least somewhat common for these older style cuts.

What I am finding few and far between (at least based on the certs I can find online) are smaller table stones (with the facet pattern I''m looking at). Most seem to have tables around 60 and depths around 65 (although sometimes even shallower than that). I know a table in the mid-50s does not guarantee a nice stone, nor does a table not in the mid-50s mean the stone is ugly, but it would be nice to at least have the opportunity to look at a few stones closer to the 55 table 65 depth ''sweet spot.''

My options would open up a little if I was willing to go I/J, but I''m not (because of my GF''s preferences). They would also open up a little if my budget was not so fixed, but it is.

So, I am hoping the vendor is able to source some options (none thus far), or that they are able to call in a few of the certs I passed along with better success than the first one. I feel a little annoying sending certs over to them rather than leaving them alone with their search, but I don''t want to let a good one go by just because I did not want to seem too psycho.

Cehra-- What is your table%? Do you think your stone is about as deep as you would want to go?

Also, what do you think the chances are that ''Good'' polish on a stone like this would be eye-visible?

Let''s see.... well first of all my table is 53% and I wouldn''t personally go over 55% but I''d go down to 50%. I like the size of my table just fine. On depth... I''d maybe go deeper. Or I dunno... I think I''d want to ask Garry what pavillion angle he thinks goes best with a 40* crown angle and do some thinking on that one LOL I JUST got my info today so I haven''t had the time to really crunch it in my head comparing it with the weaknesses and strengths of my stone. The crown angle I have is over 39 but under 40 (I just looked and it is 39. so it doesn''t have that notation you''re talking about but it is very close. The pavillion angle is shallow... I need to do more research on the correlations therein before I form more of an opinion, also waiting to get more specific info on specific angles... anyway... I wouldn''t lower in color or raise in budget.... but I would consider a large culet and play it case by case...

Are you SURE your girlfriend wants an antique cushion? Because this is one of THE hardest cuts to find... even the modern cushions have gotten easier recently... (and you now pay a premium for that!) and I don''t mean this to disuade you - obviously I''m a big fan But I do mean it to encourage you to be patient... it isn''t a very instant gratification sort of cut LOL But in the end you find yourself with something truly unique

Hey - turns out my stone actually is more brilliant than I thought! It actually took a hit on scintillation because it returned light too well LOL I think the scint is fantastic but it isn''t quite a bang bang bang off on off on sort of scint like you see in rounds... it is a more melodic dance through shades of grey(except it isn''t really grey - it''s color!)... anyway, the fire is as I expected - ex and the brilliance was vgood which is more than I expected as well. Pardon for rambling... I don''t know if this stuff helps you... I figure it can''t hurt LOL My stone is definitely odd but it was stronger than I gave it credit for other than contrast.

I don''t know who you are working with but I would recommend Mark T again and if not him, I would go with good old gold.... oh for kicks, here is an image of the bottom of my stone - the pavillion facets.

Oh, another piece of advice... don''t work with just one vendor. I did that. I felt a sense of loyalty... a relationship... but when it comes to finding a stone like *this* you need to work with more than one person. Or at least it''s a good idea to. Especially if you have a timeline. Loyalty is an awesome thing, but healthy competition in business is good for the consumer.

Also - the stone you''re looking for is more square than mine so I don''t know what the depth should be... the whole thing is an enigma - a mystery... okay now I''m just babbling... LOL

 

[Cehrabehra]

oh I missed the last part of your post... I would downgrade the polish before the symmetry... VG polish is nice and all, but messy symmetry would bug me. In fact my "VG" sym is bugging me on my sarin and I''m trying to tell myself it''s just an older sarin machine but VG isn''t perfect LOL If you do a search on polish you''ll probably get a lot of talk of comparisons... also remember, these little minute things are SO not visible at real life size LOL

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 3/6/2007 9:21:28 PM
Author: boston_jeff
Found a fun cert I thought I would share-- obviously not related to my search

It''s a 6.10 J/SI1
46% Table!
56% Depth!
12.85x10.90
VG/G
Flour: Faint

LOL very interesting! I''d be curious to see it - I want to see all of these cushions!! Every combination - I want to see it!! LOL

 

[boston_jeff]

No, I'm not sure that my GF wants an antique cushion. But I do know she will love it if I can find a well made stone.
Yes, I know that these are among the hardest stones to find. But that is the whole point-- she deserves something truly unique!

I know that she likes cushions and hates the look of the modifieds. From there I went and got myself into this mess, rather than just settle for a modern brilliant or a 4pav main.

As always, I enjoy your ramblings-- I think it will take you quite awhile to digest all of that information... did you get the light performance readings off of a BScope?

That's an interesting opinion re: working with mulitple vendors. I always figured that the threat of someone going elsewhere was enough of an incentive to work hard for the customer.

In your experience, while you were working with a vendor, how often did the vendor contact you to give you an update?

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 3/6/2007 9:53:04 PM
Author: boston_jeff
No, I''m not sure that my GF wants an antique cushion. But I do know she will love it if I can find a well made stone.
Yes, I know that these are among the hardest stones to find. But that is the whole point-- she deserves something truly unique!

I know that she likes cushions and hates the look of the modifieds. From there I went and got myself into this mess, rather than just settle for a modern brilliant or a 4pav main.

As always, I enjoy your ramblings-- I think it will take you quite awhile to digest all of that information... did you get the light performance readings off of a BScope?

That''s an interesting opinion re: working with mulitple vendors. I always figured that the threat of someone going elsewhere was enough of an incentive to work hard for the customer.

In your experience, while you were working with a vendor, how often did the vendor contact you to give you an update?

I didn''t get too many calls... but I never was one to be a wallflower... I''d give a ring if I wanted to know something!! LOL I contacted mark during my very early search but ended up going with someone else who tried hard but didn''t find me what I sought... so I got it on blue nile as you know. If I were to replace it I''d go to mark.

Thank you that you enjoy my ramblings I don''t know if those are from a bscope... no clue... I have an IS and an ASET but I''ll have to find out if a BS was used... I kinda don''t think it was. The aset is cool - it looks like a christmas present! All green with a big red bow LOL the leakage in my stone on the IS is *exactly* where I expected it to be.

And no, I don''t think the threat of going elsewhere is enough... a lot of these vendors juggle MULTIPLE clients at the same time and it can be overwhelming I''m sure. Granted, this is their job, but as an informed consumer it is WELL within your right to shop around.