Diamond Brokers of Florida Trashing Pricescope

[pricescope]

RE: shills

Can we 100% guarantee there is no shills? No, we cannot.

Can we recognize a shill from one or two posts? Sometimes.

Can a poster who posted a single experience and disappear make a big impact? Unlikely because he/she doesn’t gather certain level of trust/authority.

Would it be obvious if a poster pushes the same vendor all (most of) the time? Yes, it would.

Does it make any economical sense to have a disguised person who recommends other vendors too just not to be busted? No. Moreover, online vendors cannot afford the risk to be exposed in deceiving the public.

Bottom line is that in a healthy online community regulars can easily detect and expose those who abuse the forum. I believe that human beings recognize and respect each other based on what and how they speak/write. Level of intelligence, tact, professionalism, character… All these things become obvious sooner or later and we know who we are dealing with.

 

[Mara]

I want to point out that when Brad refers to SHILLS here at Pscope he is mostly talking about people who he calls ''regulars'' who shill for companies here at Pscope. I know from previous experience he is talking about someone like me who commonly recommends stones for people from websites from vendors I respect. He is sure I must be working for them or on their payroll in some shady sort of way because I post a stone for people to look at. Let me just say..I WISH that I got paid for recommending advice and/or stones to people! It doesn''t work that way here--if I post a stone it''s because I think it''s pretty. In the past, I would also recommend DBOF especially for things such as well-cut princesses, but that was before they got so nasty about not being mentioned enough. Why would I recommend someone who was nasty to me?? You can have the most beautiful stones in the world but with a bad attitude, you will drive people away!

So yes there are the random shills that come up in random posts where they have 1 post and they chime in to protect a vendor or a customer etc etc....but Brad''s big beef with Pscope and shills is that he thinks many of the regulars are working for the industry and are just pretending to be customers.

*twilight zone music*

Lastly, Pyramid...of course Brad is upset and angry--that''s pretty obvious...but does that give a business owner an excuse to FLIP OUT and rant and rave for DAYS to himself about the ''evils of Pricescope''? Honestly, the man is older than me probably by almost double and yet he is acting like a 10 year old! If he disagrees, fine, everyone already knows how he feels about Pscope, but the venom coming from his posts is disconcerting to say the least. Give it up, let it go, and move on!! That kind of anger and venom can''t be good for your health, buddy!

 

[widget]

Well, I''m going to jump in here, with considerable trepidation..

I think that relying on "regulars" to detect and expose forum abusers is a bit dicey...particularly in a venue so often visited by "newbies" asking for advice on how and where to spend a whole lot of money.

If I were shopping for a diamond, I would take comfort in DT''s ongoing vigilance in weeding out vendors/posters that "mis-behave". If they have, in their vigilance, ''erred on the side of caution'', then as a consumer, I appreciate their caution.

I also like their policy of requiring credit card ID''s before registering as a way of deterring at least some hit-and-run shills.

I''m new to PS, and am thoroughly enjoying its active and educational ''Colored Stone'' forum...I hope that my "two cents worth" doesn''t impact my welcome here.

widget

 

[jenwill]

Widget- I don''t think anyone is going to jump all over you for making a comment.

I have not been to DT much, as I do not find their layout to be pleasing, and i amn ot comfortable putting my cc# out into cyberspace just to be ''vetted'' for joinability. But, I have been pretty shocked to hear how many regulars here were tossed off of DT for myriad reasons. It seems a bit ''1984-ish'' to me, and makes me wonder how much truly open communication they want on their boards. I know that there are spats of contentiousness goign on over here, but I enjoy a good back and forth exchange of opinions, and it gives me more insight into peoples reasons for liking one thing over another for a particular diamond/stone/setting/vacuum/presidential candidate.

I must wander over to the colored stone section, as I have just unearthed an old garnet ring of my g-mothers that I thought I had lost......

 

[hoorray]

Date: 1/19/2005 3:11:55 PM
Author: widget

If I were shopping for a diamond, I would take comfort in DT''s ongoing vigilance in weeding out vendors/posters that ''mis-behave''. If they have, in their vigilance, ''erred on the side of caution'', then as a consumer, I appreciate their caution.

Widget,

I think everyone here welcomes opinions, regardless of whether they agree with them or not, so don''t have trepidation.

I don''t know if you''ve seen it here or not yet, but one of the things I think you will find if you stick around is that misbehaving vendors are called on it quickly. I would bet that all of the vendors would tell you that they are careful of what they say, sometimes to a point that they think it is too much. Vetting shills is a different thing, but Leonid works hard here to keep the awknowledged vendors in their role as "experts" rather than "overt solicitators". Sometimes the regulars will call them on it also, but it would happen anyway if they didn''t. I think the environment of "self-policeing" is welcomed so that it feels more like an open forum than one run by a heavy handed moderator, but that doesn''t mean that leonid would let just anything go.

I personally would not give my credit card just to be able to post, but that''s just my opinion -- I want a more open forum.

 

[Nachoman]

Date: 1/19/2005 4:48:47 PM
Author: lop

Date: 1/19/2005 3:11:55 PM
Author: widget

If I were shopping for a diamond, I would take comfort in DT''s ongoing vigilance in weeding out vendors/posters that ''mis-behave''. If they have, in their vigilance, ''erred on the side of caution'', then as a consumer, I appreciate their caution.

Widget,

I think everyone here welcomes opinions, regardless of whether they agree with them or not, so don''t have trepidation.

I don''t know if you''ve seen it here or not yet, but one of the things I think you will find if you stick around is that misbehaving vendors are called on it quickly. I would bet that all of the vendors would tell you that they are careful of what they say, sometimes to a point that they think it is too much. Vetting shills is a different thing, but Leonid works hard here to keep the awknowledged vendors in their role as ''experts'' rather than ''overt solicitators''. Sometimes the regulars will call them on it also, but it would happen anyway if they didn''t. I think the environment of ''self-policeing'' is welcomed so that it feels more like an open forum than one run by a heavy handed moderator, but that doesn''t mean that leonid would let just anything go.

I personally would not give my credit card just to be able to post, but that''s just my opinion -- I want a more open forum.

I definitely agree with this. With any public forum there will be misinformation presented. What is great about having such a wide variety of industry experts and educated consumers in one forum, is that there is a great deal of checks and balances.

Imagine going to Tiffany''s to buy a ring, it''s basically you vs. the salesperson. Any statement that salesperson makes, whether it be true or false, can only be verified by yourself alone. Now imagine you went to Tiffany''s, but you brought along an entourage containing someone from GOG, DCD, WF, along with a dozen educated consumers. Now suddenly any statement that Tiffany''s salesperson makes is being scrutinized by 20 knowledgable individuals ready to point out any inconsistancies or lies.

Anybody trying to mislead or lie to a consumer on this forum won''t last long. There''s too many people watching and too many people ready and willing to lend their own advice. All of the vendors and consumers keep each other in check, if someone is lying to you there''s a high probablity they will get called on it. The only way I can see overt dishonesty consistantly happening is if there was one company running and censoring this forum, in which case it probably wouldn''t last long.

 

[Kaili]

Gary said it before, but I do believe that Leonid can look at IP addresses if he has any doubt about a poster. True, this is not foolproof, but it is a small check.

Also, I have a question. Out of curiosity, In what way is Brad involved w/ DT. Does he own the site. I believe I read a post referring to it as his site.

Is Brad banned from PS? I understand that he might not want to post here as it might feel like a major attack, but it would be nice to have the response in this thread rather than selective pieces of the converstation taken out of context being posted over there- Also, considering that it doesn''t seem like people can participate in his thread.

Just a thought...

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

The benefits of good moderation stop vendors aggressively offering their wares and using a fourm as a blatant advertising website
http://www.diamondtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59288

And this is what can happen when competitors gang up on another vendor
http://www.diamondtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59156

And here is an example of an "informed discussion" that happens after you boot off most of your experts
http://www.diamondtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58935

It would be easy to go on because there are many examples of DT moderation which shows that it has become a club of back rubbing vendors. But who cares.

I would rally like to find a shill on Pricescope though.

Reward - a free ideal-scope for every identified shill other than consumers who have posted pics or posted stories etc after buying from a vendor 9I think that is reasonable human behaviour - even though I have heard of there being inducements from vendors to do so.)

 

[Rank Amateur]

Too bad they banned me, Brad would have more fun if there were someone to argue with.

With all his pride and bravado I''m surprised Brad doesn''t name some names of the shills. We''d all love to know!

We need a Pricescope Shill smiley icon similar to the old DT Jabronee icon.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I don''t get your point Dave?

 

[onedrop]

I just went over to DT for the heck of it and found that I was quoted by Brad. Wow! I feel honored? I guess as soon as you disagree with the way he rants then you are on his blacklist. Seeing my screen name there was a bit disconcerting considering I am new to PS and have never given advice on a stone''s specs. But I do know this...I''ll never ever do business with Brad.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 1/19/2005 3:11:55 PM
Author: widget

I think that relying on ''regulars'' to detect and expose forum abusers is a bit dicey...

Guess so... but there might be more active moderation here than you think.

For example, here''s how my PS posting started: after my first dozen posts or so I got a very polite PM from Leonid asking why I mention a certain shop that often. A quick explanation was enough to keep me in. However, the shop that got free promotion judged fit to send a couple of (obvious) shills to take charge of the new advertising opportunity: two guys subscribed in the same time and started exchanging enthusiastic messages about the same seller... After some other posters asked them what''s the point they were never heard from ever since. And I wouldn''t mention the seller again, sure that - it feels plain emabarasing.

Perhaps is more work to moderate case by case rather than pile up rules, but it seems to work better, IMO. It is way too hard to predict side effects of regulation - be it online of off. And tat''s ok, ''cause otherwise I''d be out of work

 

[ElizabethTheEquestrian]

"I didn`t sell my soul to Pricescope so I could swim with the deceivers to gain sales. A forum that promotes deception does not interest me." -- Brad

OUCH!!!

I have to say that I value everyone who has been kind enough to answer any questions i have with a reply to my post filled with great advice. Although I am a newbie who needs some guidance with ''the right stone'' I feel a lot more comfortable now having narrowed my search down to 3 brilliant round AGS 000 stones based on a plethora of different factors, thanks -- in part -- to knowledgable people clueing me in to what exactly to look for.

So, thanks to everyone for being so nice, and "self-lessly" assisting others like me. I am so glad i found pricescope. Now if only i could decide between the 3 stones...

'');" alt="Insert smilie

" src="http://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/39.gif" align="absMiddle border=0">

'');" alt="Insert smilie

" src="http://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/33.gif" align="absMiddle border=0">

 

[widget]

Thanks, Valeria

...interesting and enlightening story! My comment, by the way, was in response to Leonid''s previous post, referring to regulars detecting and exposing forum abuse.

Sounds to me as if the debate is around the AMOUNT AND STYLE of moderation, not use of it at all....

All of this leads me to ask a question I''ve wondered forever....who actually OWNS these talk forums (PS and DT)? How do they work as businesses? I presume their income comes from advertisers and "member vendors"...is that all? Are there other sources of income? Are there financial disclosure statements available that list owners, partners, shareholders, income statistics, etc.?

I''ve always wondered about this....

widget

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Leonid and his wife founded Pricescope as a part ime pursuit while he was working in an IBM spin of company as a business and software developer.
The revenue he gets from advertising now provides his family with a comfortable income. He no longer works for any other organisation.

I guess I know him better than most anyone here - in fact he is one of my best friends, and that is pretty amazing given we live on opposite sides of the world and have only met face to face a few times (we love to ski).

I think he has a wonderfully creative mind and an amazing perspective on social interactions. He also understands human motivations on internet communications as well as the best experts.

He is an avid

reader of really heavy mind altering type novels. Having had a Russian upbringing and first class education (I made a joke about getting someone else to whitewash a wall once, and then stopped to explain Mark twain; of course he had read it at school! He has read every book we ever read at school, plus the mind bending Russian authors).

Leonid is as far away from evil and as kind and considerate a person as you are ever likely to meet.
But then Brad''s friends probably say the same of him

Maybe someone can explain the DT story?

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/20/2005 9:50:12 AM
Author: fire&ice
To elevate PS to some religious form of the ''devil'' is weird if, at the very least....

It reminded me of President Bush, actually.

Deborah

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/20/2005 12:48:35 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Maybe someone can explain the DT story?

Does it have to be non-fiction? If you waive that requirement, I will tell it!

Deborah

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 1/20/2005 10:40:37 AM
Author: AGBF

Date: 1/20/2005 9:50:12 AM
Author: fire&ice
To elevate PS to some religious form of the ''devil'' is weird if, at the very least....

It reminded me of President Bush, actually.

Deborah

I must have missed something. Did Pres. Bush have a comment about PS?

 

[pricescope]

Steve, please... your post is just an example of guild solidarity with a fellow jeweler. You know pretty well that this vendetta or crusade against everything associated with Pricescope (including vendors, appraisers and wholesalers) started long before the local jeweler project.


I don''t know whether the reason is mostly personal or financial because of the lost business but the fact is that they use any reason to badmouth everything that associated with Pricescope on the closed trade forums and now publicly.


RE: Nice people. All people are genially nice until it comes to own ego and admitting mistakes or protecting own livelihood. Then some genuinely nice people become aggressive, bitter and blame everybody else but themselves.

 

[pricescope]

I didn't mean to offend you Steve and I'm sorry if I did.

I'm just really confused with the logic (or the lack of one) of your post above knowing that you're aware about the history of this negativity.

 

[aljdewey]

Steve, you''ve provided an excellent summary of what you understand the underlying issues to be......but I fear you''ve missed the point.

I''m sure you''re correct that Brad isn''t the only one who feels the way he does.
The issue isn''t how LOUD he is, but how venomous he is in his approach. Instead of constructively trying to present his arguments and focusing on the ISSUES he has at hand, he instead takes personal swipes. That''s not the way to successfully resolve conflict.

I respect that he feels passionate about his viewpoint, but I have absolutely no respect for the MANNER in which he chooses to champion that viewpoint.

Playing devil''s advocate for a moment.....he''s supposed to be an "expert" right? So if well-meaning but ill-informed forum participants offer information that Brad deems is wrong or misleading, wouldn''t the most effective approach be to present countering information that clearly corrects the flaws? Wouldn''t that be an adult and professional way to persuade folks?

You yourself have said you joined here because you saw advice being dispensed that you disagreed with and wanted to have a voice to correct it. To me, THAT is a constructive approach. You have chosen to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem. When I read your dissention, I don''t feel that you are on the RABID ATTACK.....rather, I feel that you present ideas/thoughts
/information that you feel are germaine.

Instead, Brad''s solution is to accuse those participants of being vendors in disguise, or on the vendor payroll. Exactly how does that help address the problem of erroneous advice? That''s right....it doesn''t.

The point isn''t whether Brad is justified to feel as he based on the issues. It''s how he chooses to present his dissention.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/20/2005 10:59:14 AM
Author: fire&ice

Date: 1/20/2005 10:40:37 AM

Author: AGBF

Date: 1/20/2005 9:50:12 AM

Author: fire&ice

To elevate PS to some religious form of the ''devil'' is weird if, at the very least....

It reminded me of President Bush, actually.


Deborah

I must have missed something. Did Pres. Bush have a comment about PS?

Gee...I don''t know. But if he *has* comented on Pricescope I am *SURE* that the words, "axis of evil", "the evil doers", etcetera are somewhere in his comment. I do not know if he would be directing them at DBOF or at Pricescope, but I am sure the words are in there applied to SOMEONE.

Deb

 

[fire&ice]

And, his latest posts seem to completely discredit "consumer" advice. To take his analogy of the car repair place. NO - I wouldn't trust the person who will financially benefit from fixing all my car problems. I would trust the people waiting in the lobby who have "word of mouth" recommendations & may have had something similar happen to them.

I don't think anyone who has a financial stake in a decision making process to be completely impartial to part wisdom. I do trust consumers to give their perpective on the buying process & their preferences.

Also, he is calling into question why we are here still insinuating that 1. we don't have a life or 2. we must be here for financial gain. He hasn't thought about because we enjoy diamonds and sparkly things - and in my case, the sweet proposal stories & care in ring selection - this warms my heart. I ask him *why* he spends soooooo much time on his rant? Doesn't he have a business to run?

Legitimate beef in his rant - perhaps - but this has gone personal. As Al says, he isn't addressing the issues. To me, he focuses all energies to something he preceives has changed due course of business. And, PS is the only thing to blame.

 

[AGBF]

Steve,

I have found your postings on this topic very thoughtful. You are taking a broader view of some of the issues involved in this microcosm.

I understand why others are concerned with the less-global issues. (Aljdewey has been particulary lucid in her coverage of the issues.) Nonetheless I am impressed at how you have been able to see broader issues in the industry at work here.

And, yes, it scares me to agree with you (as I am sure it scares you to hear praise from me).

Deborah

 

[Hest88]

Steve, I agree with your analysis and think it would make for a nice global thread along the lines of the recent thread we had on the future of the jewelry industry.

I guess those of us who know the backstory or, as I was, involved in the creation of the backstory, sometimes hard to separate the cogent points of Brad''s arguments with what we know is his real motivation.

 

[Mara]

Date: 1/20/2005 12

6:47 PM
Author: fire&ice

Also, he is calling into question why we are here still insinuating that 1. we don't have a life or 2. we must be here for financial gain. He hasn't thought about because we enjoy diamonds and sparkly things - and in my case, the sweet proposal stories & care in ring selection - this warms my heart. I ask him *why* he spends soooooo much time on his rant? Doesn't he have a business to run?

If one wants to call in why people are on a diamond forum, then it can easily be turned back onto DT as well. So it's not right for PS'ers to hang out here for a few years buying sparklies, talking to others, posting images? But it's okay for DT'ers to do it? Because there are 'regulars' over there too. But yet somehow because WE on PScope are here a few years, we have an agenda, are evil-doers, sharks, crows, etc etc...the list is long. Obviously I don't think anyone who hangs out on a forum for a number of time doesn't have a life or has an agenda...there are dog forums I belong to as well because I have a dog and like to know where I can go if I have a Q about the important stuff...sometimes it's more effective (and cheaper!) than calling the vet.

I have never been one to blindly trust an 'expert'...preferring to do my own research and determine for myself what is right and wrong for me.

In terms of people dispensing incorrect information, PS is actually a great place to have yourself corrected, people are not shy about doing that around here. If there are differing opinions on what is beautiful, that is to be expected, different strokes for different folks..but apparently WRONG information is usually easily and quickly corrected (aka my asscher comment to a previous thread where Strm noted that the stone I thought looked great by numbers was really probably a dog...I realized that I needed to learn more about asschers before giving further advice on those stones) and everyone is the better for the additional info.

I have no beef with people having differing opinons or entirely disagreeing with one another, we do it often here--but somehow we manage to stay pretty civil without name-calling or venomous ranting and raving...so I would expect AT LEAST that same courtesy from someone who is in business for themselves. Passion is one thing, but hysterics are quite another.

 

[hoorray]

Date: 1/20/2005 12

6:47 PM
Author: Feydakin
The issue is that massive change is coming, but it''s coming from sources outside of the traditional jewlery market.. And this bothers people.. They have lost control of their business to people outside.. And this is scarey.. We fel it every day here.. I have just today, been officially pulled off of the jewlery bench andplaced in charge of our inline presence and technology for our store.. It''s been coming, but today was the official announcement, and guess what, even our own bench jewlers are scared of the change and how it will affect them..

Now, put yourself in the position of someone that doens''t even own a computer being told that their entire lively hood is being affected by something don''t even know about.. I feel bad for them, but change happens.. And you either keep up or get left behind.. Remeber, Fear is the mind killer..

Steve, I agree with you completely here. Change scares people, especially when they have no control over it. They can choose to be angry about it, try to fight it or join in and take advantage of the new opportunities it brings. In the case of massive change, fighting it is usually futile.

I have a jeweler in a small town, who is clearly very angry about the change the Internet is bringing to his business. But, he hasn''t adapted his business to it at all, and it is getting harder and harder for him to compete, which simply makes him angrier.

I personally think that PS is introducing change that in most cases are good for the consumer. Not everything works, but I give Leonid credit for thinking out of the box, and trying new things. If he didn''t do it, someone else would. An industry can''t fight the inevitible, but they can join in and try to influence the outcome in a way that is favorable to them.

 

[pricescope]

More food for thoughts: Publications in JCK Magazine:
Internet sites may be undercutting retailers
Pricescope: friend or foe?
Quotes:

“Roshto is upset about pricescope.com, a site that compares diamond prices for consumers on sites like dirtcheapdiamonds.com and jewelryzone.com. Roshto says that most of the companies selling on pricescope.com simply use listings from Polygon’s CertNet and RapNet – which retailers use as well.”
….
“Sometimes you try and sell a stone to a customer and the customer comes in two weeks later with the exact same stone for 2% over cost,” he says. “There is no way a retailer can survive on that kind of margin. A lot of business is flying out the door because of it.”

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/20/2005 12:55:44 PM
Author: leonid
More food for thoughts: Publications in JCK Magazine:

Pricescope: friend or foe?

Leonid,

I can only read the very beginning of this unless I want to pay for a subscription to the journal. Can you (or someone else who has access to the entire article) summarize it somewhere (in another thread, perhaps)?

Deb

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 1/20/2005 12

6:47 PM
Author: Feydakin
See, I agree completely that Brad is out of control on this issue and he is making it difficult for those of us that are more tolerant of change to make an effect on how these changes come about.. But, my summary wasn''t meant to be only Brad.. It''s a distillation of everything I hear at trade shows, training seminars, and just eating dinner.. And it''s not all aimed at Pricescope, in fact, a great many jewlers have no clue what PS is..

The issue is that massive change is coming, but it''s coming from sources outside of the traditional jewlery market.. And this bothers people.. They have lost control of their business to people outside.. And this is scarey..

And, we completely understand the sentiment. Honestly though, PS didn''t start this fire. All industries are affected. The way we shop is/has changing/changed. Costco even enters into this picture. It''s not just the internet.