FI threw the cost of my ring in my face

[Mrs Mitchell]

DiamondSmitten,
Sorry to hear that you feel bad about the argument / the ring. I can''t tell you what to do, or what is best for you. Only thing I can suggest (someone suggested this to me, and it was a big help) is to take independent financial advice. I guess they only told me what I already knew, but it helped, coming from a third party and backed up with a realistic plan. This thread had given you some different perspectives, so maybe you could talk them over with a financial advisor, with your FI. "No, you can''t afford a TV" might come better from an independent third party? If that''s what you want him to hear. Uh, did any of that make sense??

Whatever you do, its your choice and I wish you all the best.

Jen

 

[DiamondSmitten]

I went exclusively to state schools for both undergrad and grad school AND took some classes at county schools to finished early.... I still have 63800 and thats after a couple payments.... for 5 years, one major, one minor and a masters degree. I didn''t do it in a dumb way.... I got into Georgetown, Northeastern, American and Brandeis but went to states schools to do in inexpensively..... any of those schools would have put me in the same amount of debt in 2-3 yrs.

 

[Gypsy]

DS... I''ve avoided this thread... and I probably still should. But here''s the bottom line.

Excuses are like elbows... everyone''s got a couple. I could tell you my story... or a hundred other peoples stories about unsupportive parents, hard lives... and debt.

Fact is both you and FI seem to have entitlement complexes and problems with financial responsibility. You posted your story... we gave input. You''re troubled by what other''s have said? You reap what you sow....

Personally your justifications and continued defenses just rienforce what''s already been said. You come across as young, and frankly immature, entitled with a chip on your shoulder and in trouble fiscally.

That doesn''t mean that we don''t like you, or enjoy your contributions to the board... it means that we, too, are entitled to our opinions.

This thread is not going anywhere positive, please, at this point, just let it die.

 

[bee*]

Date: 2/26/2007 4:34:14 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 2/26/2007 4:23:39 PM

Author: DiamondSmitten


I have been thinking about this thread all day. I am very troubled by your statement about what your parents have not done for you. That statement was simply replying to the people who stated that we should be kicked out or that they would tell us to leave. You should read the many many other replies where I state how thankful I am to have supportive parents emotionally despite not being able to financially ''be there'' for me. The fact that they can''t do financially and haven''t been able to for most of my life is why they GIVE in the manner of letting us stay and save money in addition to helping them out.


The obligations that parents have to their children are to clothe them, feed them, and support them emotionally in order to put them out into the world as solid, productive individuals. To live in America where a higher education is ESSENTIAL to being a productive individual to think that feeding and clothing a child is all you need to do as a parent is dow right IRRESPONSIBLE. I would NEVER have more childern than I can afford to raise and in this world that INCLUDES a higher education. To do so is to set them up for life behind the ball having to either choose to go on without education or to get the education and start an adult life 30,000-100,000 dollars in debt. My parents didn''t take all this into account when having 3 kids, so I chose the latter and I am plenty strong for it, but it SUCKS, it has nothing to do with being ungrateful for all that they have given me with love, but everything to do with starting life BEHIND, and in debt.


The federal government even dictates that parents should provide for their childrens education because I got less in fact hardly any financial aid in college because they ALWAYS took my parents income (no their debt) into account when calcuating the aid I would receive. In fact the ONLY way parent''s income is NOT included is if I waited till I was 24 to START college, got married or had a baby.


I realize that things cost more these days, (cost MORE?, the houses we are looking at for 220,000-250000 were 100-130,000 8-10 years ago, thats not ''more'' thats damn near double, to pay THAT house off in 15 years it would have been about 1300 a month (tax and ins included sooo Do-able. That same house is is over 2400 a month to pay off in 15 years... not NEARLY as do-able.) but the salaries used to be a fraction of what they are now. I suppose we are talking about different industries because the job I am going into at ~40,000 to start was ~34000 8 years ago. that HARDLY compares to the difference in real estate and hence mortgage prices.

DS, it comes across that you think you are owed - whether or not you mean to. You are responsible for making yourself into a productive individual. Not your parents. Yes, it would be nice, but it''s not their responsibility.


Getting a degree does not have to cost 30K-100K. JCs are reasonably priced for your general ed classes. State schools cost less and admissions may not be as stringent.


A higher education is not essential to being a productive individual (TGuy does not have a degree, but he does very well). To be productive means you are outputting more than the resources you are taking in...perhaps a lesson for young people to learn these days when they are looking at buying 6K TVs and large diamond rings.

I have to agree with you TG! DS, a parent does not have to pay for their child''s education to support them. I am 25, have already gotten one degree behind me, paid off all my loans after working two years and have now gone back to college again for another 5 year course and have already gotten my first year paid off by working to support myself. My parents have been immensely supportive, but that doesnt mean that I expect them to hand me money. I am an adult and its not up to my parents to bend over backwards to pay for me do buy things.
It just seems that you''re bitter about your parents not giving you money growing up. Your friends might have been bought cars, but the best feeling in the world, is buying your own car, out of you own cash that you have saved for ages.
And dont get me started on the housing market!

. I live in Dublin, where a starter home costs minimum 450,000 euro, which is roughly 560,000 dollars. D and I have saved up and have our deposit ready when we see a property that we like. We have saved up 10,000 euro towards our ring which we are purchasing in July and it feels great to be buying things with cash.
I think that you really should read the previous posts and take heed of them. No one is writing on this to try and attack you, or to say that you shouldnt have gotten engaged etc, they are writing to try and tell you their views on it and after reading all of the posts, they have given great information. Its no fun being in debt. Instead of wanting everything straight away, try and clear some of your debt. The nice things will come in the future and they''ll feel even better when you have paid for them in cash and dont owe anything on it.

 

[Kismet]

One thing you might want to bring up with your fiance is the actual size of a 62inch tv. Will you be able to afford a house where you can fit in a tv that size? Not only do you have to consider wall space but also viewing distance. I''m sure my perceptions are colored by the fact that starter homes in the Boston area tend to have small rooms and your area may be different but it''s something to consider before purchasing.

I won''t beat you over the head with more financial advice except, because I can''t seem to help myself, pointing out this mortgage calculator which can show how much you can save in interest by paying off your debt early. It is a mortgage calculator but it should work just fine for student loans.

 

[DiamondSmitten]

Just wondering where everyone got the idea that we planned on charging any of these purchases or not paying cash for them? That is the intention, don't charge anything and aren't moving with the idea of not paying cash for anything... except for mortgaging the house. This "pay cash it feels better" keeps being brought up over and over, but we never said we weren't. The ring is paid for, and the money being saved for the house is more like "save ererythnig we can while we are with the parents" which should add up to about 25000 by end of the summer 2007, after the down payment and closing costs are paid we will see whats left and buy what we need. Like I said we have furniture, dishes, etc etc etc all the things to run a household so the only stuff left is the living room and incedentals. Obviously if we move and choose a house such that we need the 25000 for repairs or what have you the entertainment center goes by the wayside. We won't charge a thing. YES the debt from a mortgage and student loans adds up, but thats the only debt there will be and I hardly consider THAT frivolous.

ETA: I know I said we weren't making larger payments for the Student loans and mortgage NOW, but that doesn't preclude us from doing it "later" even with "later" only being 12-24 months from now. Neither the student loans or the FHA loans penalize for early payment so OF COURSE as our incomes increase we will increase payments. The minimums are just to GET INTO the house and GET THROUGH the wedding A year, even a yer and a hlaf of minimum payments on my student loans at 3% won't set me back THAT far and starting t pay big chunks in 12-24 months when I am 24 or 25 still allows to me to pay it off in my early 30's (just in time to have kids and start all over (JK!)

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 2/26/2007 4:23:39 PM
Author: DiamondSmitten
To live in America where a higher education is ESSENTIAL to being a productive individual

You''ve got to be KIDDING me? Higher education "essential" to being a "productive individual"?? Wonder what that waste of space, unproductive BILL GATES would say to that?

Honestly you''re lucky the GOVERMENT offers ANY help ... too too bad it''s not as much as you think they owe you because that spiteful Uncle Sam is trying to get back at your slacker parents for not saving enough & *gasp* having three children. Which of your siblings would you trade for less debt BTW?

And your "I''d NEVER have kids if I couldn''t afford them" talk is PARTICULARLY RICH given the discussion at hand.

Woe is you. Poor poor thing. Time to close up shop here?

 

[larussel03]

Date: 2/26/2007 4:54:32 PM
Author: Gypsy

DS... I've avoided this thread... and I probably still should. But here's the bottom line.

Excuses are like elbows... everyone's got a couple. I could tell you my story... or a hundred other peoples stories about unsupportive parents, hard lives... and debt.

Fact is both you and FI seem to have entitlement complexes and problems with financial responsibility. You posted your story... we gave input. You're troubled by what other's have said? You reap what you sow....

Personally your justifications and continued defenses just rienforce what's already been said. You come across as young, and frankly immature, entitled with a chip on your shoulder and in trouble fiscally.

That doesn't mean that we don't like you, or enjoy your contributions to the board... it means that we, too, are entitled to our opinions.

This thread is not going anywhere positive, please, at this point, just let it die.

I agree, and I can identify. When I first got out of college, I had entitlement issues, mainly b/c my parents had said they'd pay for my college (and grad school, I have my masters) and had a "plan" even though we were taking out student loans, but they never paid them, and don't look like they will (and I no longer feel that they should or even help contribute to them since it's not really their responsibility, they've got enough on their plates), and I've got 40K in debt.

At first I was soooo upset (and scared, I didn't know ANYONE who had any school debt at all, all my friends' parents paid for thier school), and felt that I should be able to not have debt and spend my money how I wanted, but then I realized that it was not my parents' responsibility to pay for MY education, because that is something I wanted. Yes, it means I can't have everything I want, and that stinks b/c I like getting what I want, but that's life

Now I realize that while my student loan payments are under control (10 year track! although sometimes even THAT feels like forever), and FI and I live on our own and are paying for about 1/4 of the wedding, but I understand my boundaries and what we need for the future. We WANT all this extra furniture, an entertainment system, etc and can, *technically*, afford it, but then that takes away from our savings (outside of wedding savings, which is separate) and we really feel that we cannot buy anything frivelous without having a really good amount saved in our non-wedding savings account. Like 6 months of bills/rent etc, AFTER buying the luxury item.

It's all about what you guys decide your priorities are. You can live life either way. FI and I have decided to try to save a set amount every month, on top of reducing our debt, then whatever is left over we can do what we want with--that could be funds to put towards a tv...or my jeans....

 

[TravelingGal]

DS, I was the same age as you when I got my first job. 23. It paid $26,000/yr.

Now I am 34, and let me tell you...10 years goes by fast. REALLY fast. And you never ever get it back. What you do for the next 10 years can easily define a solid frame (or shaky foundation for the following 30). I know this sounds cliche, but truly truly truly the BEST advice you will ever get is to start taking financial control of your life now.

Have you ever heard that lesson that if you start saving at 25 and stop at 35, you will have more money at 65 than someone who started at 35 and saved continuously to 65? I remember seeing it on dateline when I was 24 and took the advice to heart. On the day of my 25th birthday, I started putting in money in my company's 401K...which seemed SO hard since I had consumer debt and not much money to begin with. I started with 6% and it amounted to a measly 2100 that first year. Not very impressive sounding for retirement.

This year, I turn 35. I will have 100K in various retirement accounts. If you told me 10 years ago I would have saved 100 grand in 10 years, I would have told you you were nuts. Every raise I got, I put the difference in the 401K account. I never missed the money. Now I'm maxed out at 17%, so I live off only 83% of my salary. In addition, we are saving for a house in a city where 500,000 won't get you much. TGuy and I put over 2K a month away in savings for the house. We don't feel like we have to keep up with the joneses, so maybe we won't buy that house for years to come until we really need it. But the savings will keep growing. We've trained ourselves to pay a mortgage.

We still have money left for pleasures and luxuries...after all, I do agree we do have to LIVE a bit. But we have to be selective.

I sleep well at night. 10 years ago, I had collection agencies calling me all the time and I had nightmares. Even if you chip away at it a teeny bit at a time, it DOES help. As your salary grows, the chips get bigger and the burden gets smaller. Ask yourself this...do you want to be in the same place you are 10 years from now?

Everything you do today impacts tomorrow. It really does.


ETA, just saw your latest post. That's great you pay cash for rings, TVs, etc. But that could be spent on wiser things at this point IMHO. Not saying you shouldn't have rings and TVs...but maybe more cost effective ones!

 

[larussel03]

Date: 2/26/2007 5:21:56 PM
Author: TravelingGal
DS, I was the same age as you when I got my first job. 23. It paid $26,000/yr.

Now I am 34, and let me tell you...10 years goes by fast. REALLY fast. And you never ever get it back. What you do for the next 10 years can easily define a solid frame (or shaky foundation for the following 30). I know this sounds cliche, but truly truly truly the BEST advice you will ever get is to start taking financial control of your life now.

Have you ever heard that lesson that if you start saving at 25 and stop at 35, you will have more money at 65 than someone who started at 35 and saved continuously to 65? I remember seeing it on dateline when I was 24 and took the advice to heart. On the day of my 25th birthday, I started putting in money in my company''s 401K...which seemed SO hard since I had consumer debt and not much money to begin with. I started with 6% and it amounted to a measly 2100 that first year. Not very impressive sounding for retirement.

This year, I turn 35. I will have 100K in various retirement accounts. If you told me 10 years ago I would have saved 100 grand in 10 years, I would have told you you were nuts. Every raise I got, I put the difference in the 401K account. I never missed the money. Now I''m maxed out at 17%, so I live off only 83% of my salary. In addition, we are saving for a house in a city where 500,000 won''t get you much. TGuy and I put over 2K a month away in savings for the house. We don''t feel like we have to keep up with the joneses, so maybe we won''t buy that house for years to come until we really need it. But the savings will keep growing. We''ve trained ourselves to pay a mortgage.

We still have money left for pleasures and luxuries...after all, I do agree we do have to LIVE a bit. But we have to be selective.

I sleep well at night. 10 years ago, I had collection agencies calling me all the time and I had nightmares. Even if you chip away at it a teeny bit at a time, it DOES help. As your salary grows, the chips get bigger and the burden gets smaller. Ask yourself this...do you want to be in the same place you are 10 years from now?

Everything you do today impacts tomorrow. It really does.


ETA, just saw your latest post. That''s great you pay cash for rings, TVs, etc. But that could be spent on wiser things at this point IMHO. Not saying you shouldn''t have rings and TVs...but maybe more cost effective ones!

TG--I hope I''m where you''re at 10 years from now! I''ve just started savings accounts, paying off debts and 401k''s! Your story is inspirational to me! (And that sounded cheesy, but it''s true!)

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/26/2007 5:26:43 PM
Author: *~Sweetpea~*

TG--I hope I'm where you're at 10 years from now! I've just started savings accounts, paying off debts and 401k's! Your story is inspirational to me! (And that sounded cheesy, but it's true!)

I'm sure you'll be even better off Sweetpea! You and your man can work together to achieve things twice as fast.

BTW Diamondsmitten, I hope you don't think we are being hard on you. I think it's good that you are living at home to save money (regardless of what you want to spend it on). There are plenty of other young couples who would rather plunge more deeply into debt and live away than living with their folks. I'm sure there are many that say you're a grownup and shouldn't be living with your parents, but I think if it helps get younger couples saving and starting off life on more solid footing, it's fine.

My parents lived with me until 3.5 years ago actually! I supported them but couldn't afford to save AND have places for myself and them. Then I came back from Europe in May 2003, and my mom informed me she and my dad were moving out to a senior residence. I protested, as I really felt it was my responsibility to take care of them, but they moved out before I could blink!

Apparently, my mother realized that a 30 year old woman living with her parents (regardless of who was supporting whom) was bad for her daughter's dating life!

 

[DiamondSmitten]

I just want to thank Tgal for giving, each time, solid, PRODUCTIVE advice. TO each their own indeed, which we may want the entertainment system, we WON"T have a fancy wedding or a big honeymoon or fancy cars etc etc. Like I said once we get IN the house and are both about a year into our new jobs we will pay off debt quicker and try save for the future (Esp since I will have a state job, half the reason to take a state job is the pension savings oppurtunites). While its possible to be successful with the education, its harder, especially when there are certain things you want to do. The area I come from we are raised (by the schools, town etc not just parents) that you finished HS and go to college, no questions asked. I can think of nearly no career I would be happy in that I could have achieved without a degree, which may partially be from the upbringing (school, town etc not just parents) There are exceptions to that rule, but not many where I come from.

 

[psaddict]

I try to follow the example my parents set, as far as money is concerned. They were saving money for my sister & I to go to college before we were even born. When they were getting started financially, and buying their first home, they didn''t buy anything extravagant. My mom didn''t get an engagement ring, my dad didn''t get any fancy cars or electronics. They waited until they were completely debt-free (other than the mortgage) and waited until they had significant chunks of money in their retirement account and in accounts for my college fund & my sisters fund. At that point, they rewarded themselves here and there with little splurges-- a nice TV, vacations, a diamond ring, etc. I think expensive luxury items should be used as rewards for yourself when you''ve reached a major financial goal, and saving for children & retirement should always come first. Buying all the rewards right off the bat and THEN thinking about trying to save is not such a good idea. You have no idea what kinds of raises you''ll get on the job, or what kind of unexpected bills or expenses may come up. Any extra cash could go to creating a safety net for yourselves, and money for kids college so that they won''t resent you when you tell them you can''t contribute.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 2/26/2007 4:23:39 PM
Author: DiamondSmitten

The obligations that parents have to their children are to clothe them, feed them, and support them emotionally in order to put them out into the world as solid, productive individuals. To live in America where a higher education is ESSENTIAL to being a productive individual to think that feeding and clothing a child is all you need to do as a parent is dow right IRRESPONSIBLE. I would NEVER have more childern than I can afford to raise and in this world that INCLUDES a higher education. To do so is to set them up for life behind the ball having to either choose to go on without education or to get the education and start an adult life 30,000-100,000 dollars in debt. My parents didn''t take all this into account when having 3 kids, so I chose the latter and I am plenty strong for it, but it SUCKS, it has nothing to do with being ungrateful for all that they have given me with love, but everything to do with starting life BEHIND, and in debt.

WOW.
My husband came from poor parents from another country who had 4 kids and couldn''t afford to put any of them through school. My husband has worked for *everything* he has. We got married young and with plain gold bands. He put himself through school and is almost done with his masters WHILE he worked full time and raised a family - a single income household. Because of the choices we made we have two houses, no car payments and I just plopped the same amount you are looking to spend on your e-ring and e-center on a diamond in cash. And you know what? No student loans! Imagine that! And without the help of those darn irresponsible parents of his and everything!!! You don''t have to be *entitled* to be successful.

IMO more than clothes even, what you need to give your children is LOVE and ENCOURAGEMENT.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 2/26/2007 4:44:13 PM
Author: DiamondSmitten
I went exclusively to state schools for both undergrad and grad school AND took some classes at county schools to finished early.... I still have 63800 and thats after a couple payments.... for 5 years, one major, one minor and a masters degree. I didn''t do it in a dumb way.... I got into Georgetown, Northeastern, American and Brandeis but went to states schools to do in inexpensively..... any of those schools would have put me in the same amount of debt in 2-3 yrs.

my best friend went through her phd in psychology at an ivy league school and she *worked* for the school to have tuition reduction and after 7 years at that school had less than 20k in student debt AND never held a job outside of those for the university. She got grants as well.

It''s all about choices. It''s alllllll about choices. Every decision is a new opportunity to change things. It takes very little movement now to create an entirely new trajectory for long term.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 2/26/2007 4:54:32 PM
Author: Gypsy

That doesn''t mean that we don''t like you, or enjoy your contributions to the board...

Thanks gypsy! This deserved a hearty repeat!!

 

[ladykemma]

Date: 2/26/2007 6:05:29 PM
Author: psaddict
I try to follow the example my parents set, as far as money is concerned. They were saving money for my sister & I to go to college before we were even born. When they were getting started financially, and buying their first home, they didn't buy anything extravagant. My mom didn't get an engagement ring, my dad didn't get any fancy cars or electronics. They waited until they were completely debt-free (other than the mortgage) and waited until they had significant chunks of money in their retirement account and in accounts for my college fund & my sisters fund. At that point, they rewarded themselves here and there with little splurges-- a nice TV, vacations, a diamond ring, etc. I think expensive luxury items should be used as rewards for yourself when you've reached a major financial goal, and saving for children & retirement should always come first. Buying all the rewards right off the bat and THEN thinking about trying to save is not such a good idea. You have no idea what kinds of raises you'll get on the job, or what kind of unexpected bills or expenses may come up. Any extra cash could go to creating a safety net for yourselves, and money for kids college so that they won't resent you when you tell them you can't contribute.

yeah... and remember that luxury items are 40 year old goodies, not 23 year old goodies....

23 is about baked potatoes and government cheese, bricks and boards, and milkcrates for furniture. i didn't get my 1.25 carat until i was 40 and i bought it for myself .

now the question becomes, have you two considered getting a financial advisor (NOT your parents) to be your guide?

While i realize your dad was hit by a car, and i understand that when accidents happen, families should pull toegther. for a reasonable time. [edited - sounds like you dad is ok now] nevertheless consider -- at what point do you let the sinking economic ship called your parents sink, and get your own life preserver on. sounds like chronic financial problems are your parents' burden. not yours. your mom needs to step up to the plate, not you. mom needs to job retrain. dad needs to get a living wage. all NOT your problem. it's all very noble that your dad treeats poor clients, but he can't support his family.

i applaud that you got the credit card paid off (yay!), and that you have 8k saved for a home (yay!). you sound very capable. go get 'em tiger.

 

[Cheekyprincess]

DS, please just take this as a piece of advice (well meant).

Your parents learned a lesson when circumstances changed and they were unable to work etc and ended up in debt. Does this not tell you something?

You are really young, and about to begin your career, but I think you really need to not take it for granted that you will end up with a $15K raise and that you will be able to afford your school and mortgage repayments for the next 35 years- or whatever. You and your guy have budgeted, thats fair enough, you think you have a pretty good idea of where you''ll be in the future, I say you wait and make absolutely sure that''s where you are before spending the money. You are spendind money (or want to spend money) NOW as if you have money NOW! truth is you may have savings, but you have far more debt than you have cash... in reality that means you have NOTHING- NEGATIVE. Luckily for you the option is to pay in installments, so it looks like you have money- but you DON''T!

I think you should wait to think about buying the TV. In a years time you hopefully will have more money (maybe more debt too) but at least more solid foundations. In a years time the technology for your guy''s TV will be a little outdated and hopefully cheaper as most electrical stuff is. Why not wait?

Just the one thing I want you to realise- DO NOT ASSUME that you will have cash coming in, and x income for the next 35 years.

 

[winternight]

Date: 2/26/2007 6:05:29 PM
Author: psaddict
I try to follow the example my parents set, as far as money is concerned. They were saving money for my sister & I to go to college before we were even born. When they were getting started financially, and buying their first home, they didn''t buy anything extravagant. My mom didn''t get an engagement ring, my dad didn''t get any fancy cars or electronics. They waited until they were completely debt-free (other than the mortgage) and waited until they had significant chunks of money in their retirement account and in accounts for my college fund & my sisters fund. At that point, they rewarded themselves here and there with little splurges-- a nice TV, vacations, a diamond ring, etc. I think expensive luxury items should be used as rewards for yourself when you''ve reached a major financial goal, and saving for children & retirement should always come first. Buying all the rewards right off the bat and THEN thinking about trying to save is not such a good idea. You have no idea what kinds of raises you''ll get on the job, or what kind of unexpected bills or expenses may come up. Any extra cash could go to creating a safety net for yourselves, and money for kids college so that they won''t resent you when you tell them you can''t contribute.

Great points. Its not just about paying cash - its about having other money and paying off other debt first. My ring budget was 10k and we went under budget because I found the ring I wanted at signedpieces. It wasn''t just that he had the cash saved up - he has other savings, because there are other expenses in life - retirement savings, house downpayment, wedding costs, 6 months emergency funds, investments...

A 10k ring is a huge luxury! I look at the older women at my work and they all have smaller rings, they''re attorneys who clearly spent less than they could have when they were starting out. I know now lots of girls want bigger rings, but we spent less than 10k on mine and my fiance and I are both attorneys who earn over six figures. How much of your net worth do you want in a ring or an entertainment set?

I''m just starting out from school myself and I still enacted a 10% rule (now at 5%) that is I wouldn''t spend more than 10% of my savings on anything. Believe me this wasn''t easy because I have a good income but I also am just starting out. For me the luxury goods are more fun to purchase when I think about the minor dent they''ll cause in my savings - rather then how much I have to work to get them.

People here have make excellent points about how what you do now will affect your life in 5, 10, 20 years.

 

[Siamese Kitty]

Wow-tough crowd! I''m sure I''ll be flamed for this, but...

Although I know everyone here is giving sound financial advice, I''m a bit taken aback and hurt by some of the things said in this thread, and I''m not even the original poster. I don''t want to make this about me, but let me say-I am in the last year of my PhD program and live at home (and I pay rent). I have student loans and I buy jewelry from time to time. Granted I have a small stash of money in the bank (ie enough to fix my car or undergo major dental work), but it''s much less than my financial planner brother would like to see!

And while I don''t feel someone should foot the bill for my expensive education, I do think I am as "entitled" as the next person with a college fund to go anywhere I want. I take serious offense to the comment that "you could have gone to a state school". What if you''re a straight-A student who has a dream to go to a particular school? Should you give it up because your parents can''t pay for it and you have to take a student loan? And those of you that did have college funds, did you say "no thanks", I''m not "entitled"-I''m going it alone? I don''t think so. I simply don''t think education can be compared to a *luxury* purchase. And I can''t believe someone is comparing DS to that crazy girl who wanted to file bankruptcy to escape her credit card debt and student loans (which you can''t BTW) so that she could buy more jewely!!!

Give me a break. This is mob mentality at its worst.

DS posted here because she is really upset by her fiance''s actions. True, she spilled the whole financial angle, but I have to imagine she feels worse tonight than before originally posting. I really look up to the ladies (and gents) of this forum as people I admire because of the sound advice that is posted on here time and again. But even if a "wake-up call" is needed here, I think it could be presented a little less harshly. Just my 2 cents! ~SK

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 2/27/2007 3:08:28 AM
Author: Siamese Kitty
Wow-tough crowd! I''m sure I''ll be flamed for this, but...

Although I know everyone here is giving sound financial advice, I''m a bit taken aback and hurt by some of the things said in this thread, and I''m not even the original poster. I don''t want to make this about me, but let me say-I am in the last year of my PhD program and live at home (and I pay rent). I have student loans and I buy jewelry from time to time. Granted I have a small stash of money in the bank (ie enough to fix my car or undergo major dental work), but it''s much less than my financial planner brother would like to see!

And while I don''t feel someone should foot the bill for my expensive education, I do think I am as ''entitled'' as the next person with a college fund to go anywhere I want. I take serious offense to the comment that ''you could have gone to a state school''. What if you''re a straight-A student who has a dream to go to a particular school? Should you give it up because your parents can''t pay for it and you have to take a student loan? And those of you that did have college funds, did you say ''no thanks'', I''m not ''entitled''-I''m going it alone? I don''t think so. I simply don''t think education can be compared to a *luxury* purchase. And I can''t believe someone is comparing DS to that crazy girl who wanted to file bankruptcy to escape her credit card debt and student loans (which you can''t BTW) so that she could buy more jewely!!!

Give me a break. This is mob mentality at its worst.

DS posted here because she is really upset by her fiance''s actions. True, she spilled the whole financial angle, but I have to imagine she feels worse tonight than before originally posting. I really look up to the ladies (and gents) of this forum as people I admire because of the sound advice that is posted on here time and again. But even if a ''wake-up call'' is needed here, I think it could be presented a little less harshly. Just my 2 cents! ~SK

Give ME a break. Who compared higher education to a luxury purchase? DS said that she believes one needs higher education to be a productive individual, and that this education would put someone in debt 30-100K. Quote: I would NEVER have more childern than I can afford to raise and in this world that INCLUDES a higher education. To do so is to set them up for life behind the ball having to either choose to go on without education or to get the education and start an adult life 30,000-100,000 dollars in debt" I merely said, no it does not *HAVE* to put someone in debt that much if they want a degree. I said - quote: Getting a degree does not have to cost 30K-100K. JCs are reasonably priced for your general ed classes. State schools cost less and admissions may not be as stringent.

I do not think that anyone should give up their dream of going to a pricey private school if they desire, but that is their choice. I was merely stating that there is also a choice for those who want a degree to become "productive individuals" without spending that much money.

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 2/27/2007 3:08:28 AM
Author: Siamese Kitty
Wow-tough crowd! I''m sure I''ll be flamed for this, but...

Although I know everyone here is giving sound financial advice, I''m a bit taken aback and hurt by some of the things said in this thread, and I''m not even the original poster. I don''t want to make this about me, but let me say-I am in the last year of my PhD program and live at home (and I pay rent). I have student loans and I buy jewelry from time to time. Granted I have a small stash of money in the bank (ie enough to fix my car or undergo major dental work), but it''s much less than my financial planner brother would like to see!

And while I don''t feel someone should foot the bill for my expensive education, I do think I am as ''entitled'' as the next person with a college fund to go anywhere I want. I take serious offense to the comment that ''you could have gone to a state school''. What if you''re a straight-A student who has a dream to go to a particular school? Should you give it up because your parents can''t pay for it and you have to take a student loan? And those of you that did have college funds, did you say ''no thanks'', I''m not ''entitled''-I''m going it alone? I don''t think so. I simply don''t think education can be compared to a *luxury* purchase. And I can''t believe someone is comparing DS to that crazy girl who wanted to file bankruptcy to escape her credit card debt and student loans (which you can''t BTW) so that she could buy more jewely!!!

Give me a break. This is mob mentality at its worst.

DS posted here because she is really upset by her fiance''s actions. True, she spilled the whole financial angle, but I have to imagine she feels worse tonight than before originally posting. I really look up to the ladies (and gents) of this forum as people I admire because of the sound advice that is posted on here time and again. But even if a ''wake-up call'' is needed here, I think it could be presented a little less harshly. Just my 2 cents! ~SK

DS chose to share a lot of personal financial information and then state that her parents were irresponsible for having three kids when they couldn''t afford to pay for them to go to college. The sense of entitlement she exhibited both in regards to her schooling and her e-ring, while while stating her student loan debt is 3.6 times more than the average graduating senior, is frightening. And then to go so far as to claim that it is impossible to survive in America without earning a college degree, well it''s an inflamatory statement made to serve her need to defend some of the poor choices she''s made and will likely continue to make. And no, I don''t think she should have had to go to a state school, although she did, nor should she have had to skip college completely, but it is possible to graduate from college, without recieving college funds from parents and not accruing $70,000 worth of debt. The numerous grant and scholorship programs available in this country could make a person''s head spin, and that just scratches the surface.

Her defensiveness has evoked some heated responses, because so many people here have been where she is and made different choices that have led them down a path of financial security, and those responding are hoping to help her avoid major financial problems (which her parents have been unable to do, and jost so happen to be who she learned from and will continue to model her behavior after, just as most of us do to some extent) as well as marital issues that stem from stressful financial situations. But those who responded are just as entitled to be what you call "harsh" as she is to defend what seems so clearly indefensible to most people.

 

[Jas12]

mob mentality? I think that is a little extreme....lets look at it this way, we live in a VERY privleged society, and I would actually go as far to say that education is a luxury for the majority of the world--very sad, but true. That said, i do think it is worth going into debt for, esp if it is to do something you really want to do--hopefully it ends up paying for it''s self in more ways than one by way of a good job and a sound mind.... now,rings, T.V''s cars etc. are the BIG problem in this country, it''s when we start thinking we are entitled to THEM that we start to realize just how spoiled we ALL are...

(myself, of course, included

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 2/27/2007 10:57:54 AM
Author: KimberlyH

Her defensiveness has evoked some heated responses, because so many people here have been where she is and made different choices that have led them down a path of financial security, and those responding are hoping to help her avoid major financial problems (which her parents have been unable to do, and jost so happen to be who she learned from and will continue to model her behavior after, just as most of us do to some extent) as well as marital issues that stem from stressful financial situations. But those who responded are just as entitled to be what you call ''harsh'' as she is to defend what seems so clearly indefensible to most people.

I just wanted to add DIFFICULT choices. It isn''t easy to sacrifice for "later" and it''s very easy to say, ''well tomorrow may never come, I should just live now''. And after training yourself to be prudent, it can be difficult to splurge as well. But you get over that

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 2/27/2007 11:06:47 AM
Author: Jas12
mob mentality? I think that is a little extreme....lets look at it this way, we live in a VERY privleged society, and I would actually go as far to say that education is a luxury for the majority of the world--very sad, but true. That said, i do think it is worth going into debt for, esp if it is to do something you really want to do--hopefully it ends up paying for it''s self in more ways than one by way of a good job and a sound mind.... now,rings, T.V''s cars etc. are the BIG problem in this country, it''s when we start thinking we are entitled to THEM that we start to realize just how spoiled we ALL are...

(myself, of course, included

brava!

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 2/26/2007 5:21:56 PM
Author: TravelingGal
DS, I was the same age as you when I got my first job. 23. It paid $26,000/yr.

Now I am 34, and let me tell you...10 years goes by fast. REALLY fast. And you never ever get it back. What you do for the next 10 years can easily define a solid frame (or shaky foundation for the following 30). I know this sounds cliche, but truly truly truly the BEST advice you will ever get is to start taking financial control of your life now.

Have you ever heard that lesson that if you start saving at 25 and stop at 35, you will have more money at 65 than someone who started at 35 and saved continuously to 65? I remember seeing it on dateline when I was 24 and took the advice to heart. On the day of my 25th birthday, I started putting in money in my company''s 401K...which seemed SO hard since I had consumer debt and not much money to begin with. I started with 6% and it amounted to a measly 2100 that first year. Not very impressive sounding for retirement.

This year, I turn 35. I will have 100K in various retirement accounts. If you told me 10 years ago I would have saved 100 grand in 10 years, I would have told you you were nuts. Every raise I got, I put the difference in the 401K account. I never missed the money. Now I''m maxed out at 17%, so I live off only 83% of my salary. In addition, we are saving for a house in a city where 500,000 won''t get you much. TGuy and I put over 2K a month away in savings for the house. We don''t feel like we have to keep up with the joneses, so maybe we won''t buy that house for years to come until we really need it. But the savings will keep growing. We''ve trained ourselves to pay a mortgage.

We still have money left for pleasures and luxuries...after all, I do agree we do have to LIVE a bit. But we have to be selective.

I sleep well at night. 10 years ago, I had collection agencies calling me all the time and I had nightmares. Even if you chip away at it a teeny bit at a time, it DOES help. As your salary grows, the chips get bigger and the burden gets smaller. Ask yourself this...do you want to be in the same place you are 10 years from now?

Everything you do today impacts tomorrow. It really does.


ETA, just saw your latest post. That''s great you pay cash for rings, TVs, etc. But that could be spent on wiser things at this point IMHO. Not saying you shouldn''t have rings and TVs...but maybe more cost effective ones!

If everyone takes *anything* away from this thread let this be it. Especially - "EVERYTHING YOU DO TODAY IMPACTS TOMORROW."

Honestly, one accumulates wealth. One doesn''t just become wealthy. Delayed gratification, compromise on wants & watching everything one spends early on seriously aids in accumulating wealth. Eliminating and managing debt is the first step.

Marriage is tough enough without future financial woes. I''m not going to bore you with personal stories. But, life is a journey. 23 is certainly the first phase. Why put all your eggs in this luxury basket?

If you just want an answer to your original question w/o wanting to address some potential problems - then here goes - I''m in agreement with others. My nose about the ring comment would be out of joint. But, guys just look at things differently. It''s a justification/guy rationalization. I think he thought it would work. The perfect plan to a guy.

 

[firebirdgold]

I don't agree she should just pass it off as a guy thing. I told my Fi about it and his reaction was 'that guy is a moron'. Ok, so maybe being a moron about that stuff is a common trait of a guy, or maybe a lack of relationship survival skills is a guy trait. That doesn't mean she shouldn't stomp on the tendancy right away. Honestly, you can't fix them after marriage so you might as well try to polish 'em up beforehand!

The OP should tell her guy that he hurt her feelings by equating the symbol of their love and commitment to get married with a tv.

 

[San Diego Bride]

wow, what a heated thread.

i agree with what so many others have said here about responsible finances and yet, in the end, i think life is about balance and prioritizing. so many marital arguments seem to be about money, so it's important to address this early (and often, if need be). i'm a saver by nature. my husband is a spender. we both make 6 figures and both have 6 figures worth of educational debt (yes, each of us). we have a joint account which i primarily manage. we discuss all luxury/high-price purchases and have arbitrarily defined this as $500. we are in complete agreement that our only debt should be our mortgage and our educational debt. we save for our big purchases and pay for them in cash. due to some of the reasons that winternight mentioned (low interest on educational debt, higher interest in money market accounts) and the fact that we only anticipate living in our current house for a couple of years, paying off these debts at a faster rate isn't a high priority for us. we also like to travel and try to do that often. BUT, we max out our retirement contributions and are working on saving enough money to live comfortably for 6 months on no income in case we were to both quit our jobs someday. once we've done this maybe we'll start hammering away more aggressively at our debt. we also help our family that is in a less fortunate place than we are. we would never dream of stopping this support, but do insist that those we help also exhibit some fiscal responsibility. others may criticize, but this works for us. we also pay for excellent disability coverage and life insurance. we certainly believe that we'll be OK in the long run. actually, we'll be quite comfortable. (we're not having children, so we don't need to plan for this).

so the bottom line is that everyone has to set their financial priorities. would i have gotten a $10K ring? no. mine was less than half that and we each make 6 figures. but that doesn't mean that your decision was wrong. it was simply that, YOUR decision. and i applaud you for not going into debt over it. i would suggest having a financial planner meet with your family (FI and parents included) so that you can map out what is best for you. only someone with all of the data can help you figure that out.

as to the original post, i believe what so many others have said. men are just different. they are not as attached to engagment rings as we are. my husband certainly wasn't. (his wedding ring was $55). i actually bought my diamond because i was the one that actually cared about it. the ring was not important to him (as is isn't to most men), the important thing is that the MARRIAGE is important to him. (he put this on the table early).

so take your argument with him for what it's worth... you got a luxury item and he wants a luxury item. i completely understand why your feelings were hurt, but i don't think it's any more than that. i would insist that he not advertise the cost of your ring and then i'd let it go. take this time to map out your financial goals. it will only make you stronger as a couple.

HTH

 

[DiamondSmitten]

Ok, I wasn''t going to re-post anymore.... but I was playing around on the internet and this little news buletin type box popped up and it states:


The U.S. Census Bureau has released data proving the substantial value of a degree in the United States. Workers 18 and over sporting bachelors degrees earn an average of $51,206 a year, while those with a high school diploma earn $27,915. But wait, there''s more. Workers with an advanced degree make an average of $74,602, and those without a high school diploma average $18,734.

HMMMM $27915 versus $74602.... somehow I think I made the right decision........ loans~400 a month, increase in monthly income almost 4000......

 

[monarch64]

funny, both DH and I have 4 yr. degrees, but are close friends with a couple in which neither he nor she possess any higher education...yet they live in the same neighborhood we do, drive similar cars, have very similar possessions, etc. Either they are drowning in debt or they somehow managed to work hard and find great jobs where they could make a very similar income to ours without college degrees.

Funny, neither of my parents had degrees (although my father had almost 7 years of college education, my mother 1), however, they were able to have two children, put them both through school, and my father has been self-employed for the last 40 years and successful enough that my mother never "had" to work, although she did anyway.

Statistics lie, that''s for sure.

Ds, whatever you choose to do with your money is your decision, but I really hope that you don''t think a degree of any type, or lack thereof, guarantees one''s financial success. I really wish you the best and I hope that you attain everything you want in life.