Follow-up to "Combining Assets"

[neatfreak]

neatfreak: I don't know what to say, other than I agree with you. In the interest of full disclosure (hell, I have disclosed this much so far) I did not get laid off from my other job--I had a major fight with my old boss and got fired (it was a long time in the making). Although DH was emotionally supportive of my leaving what was an incredibly abusive work environment, he felt that in some way I let us both down by allowing my temper to get the better of me at my job and not putting our financial stability first. I felt guilty for getting canned (I still do) and it was me who insisted that I continue to pay for 50% of everything and for 100% of my individual expenses (educational loans, health insurance tax). I never thought I would be out of work as long as I was (again, I did work part-time for several months in there, but it was a financially difficult time), but I wanted to prove to DH (and to myself) that I am capable of supporting myself and taking responsibility for my actions leading up to my termination. I thought that holding up my literal "half" would have gained me some credit in his eyes on this front, but it appears not to have gotten me very far. If anything, I seemed to have train DH to believe that I think it is fair to split everything 50-50...that was a big mistake on my part.

Thank you for the hugs and support.

I'm glad that you are taking these words the way they are intentioned which speaks to your exceptional emotional maturity, ironically probably making life more difficult for you at the moment!!!

Your emotional health should be a concern of his too. He needs to be supportive of you emotionally AND financially. I remember your old job and you were miserable. Your old boss treated you horribly, so don't for one second think that it was your fault. Your old boss was just nuts and the fight was just the straw that broke the camel's back. Your DH either supported you and your need to get out of that situation, or he didn't. He needs to be behind you 100% regardless of any misgivings he had at the back of your mind. Turn the tables, you KNOW that if he were in that same situation you would work three jobs if you had to in order to allow him to leave his job. Why doesn't your DH ever do that for you when you're down? You DESERVE the same compassion and support you would show him if the tables were turned. Doesn't matter if you got "fired" or left because of the way your old boss treated you. He needs to be on the lookout for you BOTH not just himself.

We all know your DH has many money issues, and while all this STEMS from money issues, he really needs to get over his past. YOU have never betrayed him. YOU have never screwed him over. He needs to understand that and work through his issues or he will just not be able to support you in the way you need to be supported. I fear that he is going to lose the best thing he's ever had because of his inability to just get over his issues...he needs to be in counseling if he can't work through them on his own.

You shouldn't need to gain "credit" with him. A partnership is about mutual support and sometimes you take more than you give and sometimes you give more than you take. That's the way it works and he needs to understand that.

I have no doubt that you will come out of this stronger, whether as a couple or not. But please remember in all of this that you deserve to be treated with the same kindness and respect that you show your husband. I don't doubt that he loves you, but sometimes it just seems like he loves himself more.

Please don't try to find any-which-way to place the blame on yourself here, which is what you are doing by justifying his actions (but I should have waited until later, I should have checked on it, I should have not quit my job, etc.). It is NOT your fault that he's acting in a disrespectful manner towards you, but it WILL be your fault if you continue to let him. Stand up for yourself and make him realize that he needs to take some responsibility for his actions and put his money where his mouth is. If he loves you, he needs to make you feel loved. If he respects you, he needs to make sure you feel respected. Period.

We're here for you!

 

[Haven]

BIG HUGS to you, Alli.

Others have already said it, but I'm really impressed with the way you're handling this thread, and your situation with your DH.

I want to say a few things, and they're probably going to seem like random thoughts, but here goes:

- It is NOT your fault that you are facing such difficulties right now. Yes, you could have discussed this before marriage and that probably would have been a good idea. However, just because you didn't do that, it doesn't mean that it's your fault that you're having such a rough time of it now.

- Also, I'm pretty sure that most relationships have some hot-button issue that really makes their relationship look less than ideal to outsiders. What I'm trying to say is: I hope you aren't feeling even more awful about your relationship because there are so many people on this thread saying that their relationships are free of money issues so they can't relate. While that is true, I imagine that we all have some *thing* that is just off in our relationship that could be the topic of a thread like this one. For us, it's affection. I like to say that my husband has no emotions, which is of course, hyperbole. However, sometimes it feels like that, and if I created a thread during one of those rare yet very painful moments when his lack of emotion (and thus, affection toward me) is really getting me down, I'm sure people would post comments questioning whether he truly cares for me. I'm SURE of it. So please don't feel alone. While I may not be able to relate to THIS issue, I can relate to you in my own way as someone who faces a particular difficulty in my relationship.

- As for the way you approached it, I really didn't mean for you to be hard on yourself about it. I liked reading what NEL wrote about that because it reminded me that sometimes my SO acts uncharacteristically when I approach him at a really inopportune time, and I was thinking that perhaps you were facing the same thing.

- We really only see a very tiny sliver of your relationship here on PS, so I truly hope that the harshness of some of our responses doesn't make your confidence in your marriage waiver in any way. I firmly believe that we never really know what goes on behind other couples' closed doors, and even when given a glimpse like what you've shared in your threads, we have NO IDEA. If you love your husband, and if you feel that he loves you, that's enough for me to say I trust that, and I'll be here to support whatever decision you need to make for yourself, and for your marriage. (Not that my support really matters, but I hope you know what I mean.)

- I'm not a believer in the adage that marriage is hard, but I do believe that it can be very hard *at times*, and I believe you are going through one of those times. I've only been with my husband for a little over six years, and only married for two, but there have been moments where I have seriously questioned whether we were going to be okay. Yet here I am, madly and deeply in love with that man, and the thought that anything could ever come between us seems ridiculously absurd to me right now as I type this out. Yet, we've met what seemed to be an impasse or two in our short history together, and I've felt the despair that I think you're feeling right now. It was ugly and it hurt and I cried a lot, but my belief in us prevailed and today I count my marriage as the greatest thing in my life.

- Moving forward, you just have a lot of work to do, sweetie. I have no idea what form that work will take, but you are in this marriage and if you want to make it work, you've got to work it out. As my PS friend, my hope for you is that your husband will somehow realize how his attitudes toward money and trust are hurting you, and how his ideas about personal finance are driving a wedge between the two of you. I hope that he stops hurting you, and that you can both feel the love and trust that you should (and probably do) have for each other. I hope that this becomes a distant memory of a time that was really hard, and when you look back on it you can shake your head and wonder how you ever, EVER, questioned your husband's love for you, and your marriage to him. That's what I hope for you, that is, if that is what you want for yourself. And I really believe that you will get there. You are so determined and so strong, that you can make it happen. Your husband just has to become open to the process, as well, and I really do have confidence that you two can be just fine if you'd like to be.

Big hugs and dust and support, Alli. I've felt that despair, and I hope yours disappears very soon.

 

[Vix]

Alli --

I have read through the entire thread and echo others' comments about your ability to absorb so many different -- and difficult -- comments about a frustrating situation. Lots of good stuff that I hope will help you decide how to move forward and/or let go.

Though I could write a novel about this subject, I'll say a few things.

1) If the genders in your story were reversed (or same-sex), I do wonder if the responses would be identical. IME, the tune is quite different; cultural beliefs about the man being the economic provider/be-gifter are unbelievably strong (a reason why so many men are emotionally devastated by layoffs).

2) Every individual has deeply-held beliefs that they won't change for another. I have several things I would never, ever change for Mr Vix (and irritatingly, he has several he will never change for me!). As you're finding out, it can be painful to be at the extremes...and though you all have made great strides in finding common ground, sometimes it does come down to gritting your teeth and saying, "I have to accept this -- or move on."

I have had more than a few people say they could "never" accept some recurring things in my relationship that yes, I find difficult (I'm sure the same holds true for Mr Vix) -- but guess what? They don't have to accept them.

[Note that I'm not saying you/me/anyone should passively accept the status quo or let ourselves be made "less than."]

Quite frankly, every relationship I see I think, "Oh, I could NEVER accept that." Luckily, *I* don't have to. As you've said, there are many healthy reasons you chose your husband. If you are both committed to finding ways to love and support each other that feel authentic to you, that's what matters. [And yes, I think counseling can be a great way to fast-track that process.]

3. on a lighter note...

-- Growing up family finances were often tight, but my father never bugged my mother about the money she spent (she worked F/T). All accounts were joint, each had visibility into the finances, etc.

-- With Wife #2, all accounts were separate and they wrote each other checks to reimburse the other for joint expenses (she worked F/T).

-- With Wife #3, he pays for everything (she doesn't work) and he lavishes her with gifts.

We're waiting to see what financial method he adopts with #4.

[Moral: Someone can be "right" on paper about an issue but so very wrong in other ways!]

Best of luck to you during this stressful time.

 

[princesss]

Glad to hear I misinterpreted that line - it really worried me, and sounded far worse to me than it seems like you meant it. Lots of hugs and support from this corner. I really hope this issue (and whatever the underlying issue is) gets ironed out.

 

[movie zombie]

alli, your post was well thought out and well constructed. i have total faith now that you are looking out for yourself.

i was particularly glad to see "It doesn't make it in any way okay, of course, but it changes the character of his inaction from one of dishonesty to neglect. Neither is okay with me. I accept who he is and this does not make me love him less--but it does hurt and I will not have a child with someone as neglectful or as incapable of making even the tiniest bit of effort to do something that would help me."

in this statement you are acknowledging that at this point in time he is not parent material because he does not have your back. perhaps this will help him to make the changes needed.

good luck....if anyone can find a way to make this work, its you!

MoZo

 

[kama_s]

kama: It was your comment, more than all the others, that made me cry yesterday...I don't mean that to say it's not true or you shouldn't have said it...it just really hurt to read it. I don't know how true it is that he doesn't care about me, but it is absolutely the way this set of events has made me feel. I do see exactly what all of you are saying--I wouldn't have posted if I didn't. There are a lot of good things in my relationship, but this fundamental disagreement is very very very troubling to me. I know there is something wrong here. I don't know if it can be resolved. I hope that it can. If anything, I have a hard time believing that someone who is as hurt as DH is (even after all these years and even though it wasn't my fault) can't eventually get over that hurt enough to be a generous, loving person in a relationship. He's obviously not there yet, but I don't know that he won't ever get there.

Alli, I am so sorry that my comment hurt you. I hope, truly, that it didnt come out too harsh. You are a strong and remarkable woman with such inpsiring poise and insight, your posts are filled with so much wisdom....perhaps too much wisdom for your young shoulders. I would not be handling this situation as well as you are.

I fully understand and respect that not all couples function the same way. My husband and I have been pretty much joint in finances even before we were married, yet we both have our own distinct accounts (bank and credit card). We know we're saving for our mutual goal, even though the money isn't lying in a joint account. I'm sure people find that strange, but it works for us. So my issue with your situation is not the way the finances are being handled (even though that is also one of your concerns).

My issue always has been with the way he treats you. I may have the strongest beliefs, but they do not, and should not, be placed above my husband. And that is what is bothering me in your relationship. My role in a marriage is to enrich my husband's life, make his life better, make him stronger and fulfilled. But when *I* am the one hurting him, then something is just not right in the picture. I should be the one that makes him the happiest, the hurts and pains should come from the rest of the world. So I am just finding it hard to swallow that he would put his beliefs over your happiness. And that, I do not agree or respect. If you have told him ONCE how these actions make you feel, there is no excuse for a repeat. None whatsoever. There should not be a second time. You just don't consciously hurt your partner, when you know what it is that hurts them.

I am truly sorry you're going through this, and I really hope you two find a resolution to this. I can see it's wearing you down and I am worried it may lead to resentment later down the road. I also agree with you that this is too big an impasse to brush off, so holding off on having kids is a very wise decision.

Lots of big bear hugs to you.

 

[argylemarionette]

I'll just say this and leave it at that. I sure wish he had half the maturity that you have dear. You sound like a wonderful partner in every way. Here's a virtual hug

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Alli, I just want to say "bravo" to you--I really feel like you took a lashing on this thread and you've been very open and respectful about it.

I would also like to "ditto" everything Haven said. The fact that we see a small sliver of your relationship, that there is always a "hot button" issue in relationships, that relaionships become are so deeply personal and evolving that it's nearly impossible to understand them as an outsider, etc.

Also, I know a lot of sentiment here has been along the lines of "if you don't combine every asset and/or if you're ever disrespectful to each other, your marriage is OVER!". Which is hogwash. Combining everything does not work for every couple. It doesn't mean that you aren't committed or that you don't trust your spouse, it just works better for some couples. That's it. Also, I'd wager that every single person on this earth has pissed off his/her spouse. We've ALL said something stupid, done something stupid. Gotten cranky because we're hungry or tired or feeling guilty. If it happens regularly, that's one issue. If it happens every so often, that's life.

So I hope you're feeling a little better today and just want to say "congrats" on all the progress you've made with your DH and for keeping your chin up in this situation.

 

[kama_s]

Alli, I just want to say "bravo" to you--I really feel like you took a lashing on this thread and you've been very open and respectful about it.

I would also like to "ditto" everything Haven said. The fact that we see a small sliver of your relationship, that there is always a "hot button" issue in relationships, that relaionships become are so deeply personal and evolving that it's nearly impossible to understand them as an outsider, etc.

Also, I know a lot of sentiment here has been along the lines of "if you don't combine every asset and/or if you're ever disrespectful to each other, your marriage is OVER!". Which is hogwash. Combining everything does not work for every couple. It doesn't mean that you aren't committed or that you don't trust your spouse, it just works better for some couples. That's it. Also, I'd wager that every single person on this earth has pissed off his/her spouse. We've ALL said something stupid, done something stupid. Gotten cranky because we're hungry or tired or feeling guilty. If it happens regularly, that's one issue. If it happens every so often, that's life.

So I hope you're feeling a little better today and just want to say "congrats" on all the progress you've made with your DH and for keeping your chin up in this situation.

I just wanted to quickly respond to this as the 'other side'. I don't think posters are suggesting combining assets as an all-or-none or that one little tiff and the marriage is doomed. Most are reacting to Alli's feeling of being hurt/not cared for. It's one thing to have a one-off fight every now and then and say something hurtful in the heat of the moment(every relationship has it's moments), but it's another when there is one hot button issue that is constantly causing hurt feelings. And to add to that, the party causing the hurt feelings is unwilling to compromise and find a middle ground (including possible couples therapy).

 

[TooPatient]

Alli --

I just noticed something as I was reading your response to everyone's comments --- You were the one originally who wanted to split 50/50. When you got fired, it was you who insisted that it continue 50/50. Even though you wouldn't accept it, you are upset that he didn't offer you a check for the money he cost you by making a mistake.

You mentioned that you like everything in your finances to be neat and organized. (nothing wrong with that!)


It sounds like you may be struggling a little too as you are both working at becoming a team. (I'm NOT saying this is your fault, this is just an observation about what you've said here). I think I suggested this in your original thread, but these books are wonderful so I'll suggest them again (Gottman). We have several of these at home as well as the relationship map cards. I've enjoyed each book (so has FI) and they really have helped. Please take a look at them - you might find a couple of books that would fit your relationship and they are an interesting read so your DH may be interested in reading them too.


PS:
Every couple has something that gets them upset. In your relationship that thing is finances. The biggest thing is to decide if this is something you can "fix" or if this is just going to be there (again, everyone has them) and something you both need to learn to live with. (The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work (see link above) has GREAT advice on this)

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Kama_s, I just wanted to say that Alli's DH HAS compromised. He came into the marriage thinking that joint expenses would be split 50/50, which I believe is completely reasonable because that was the precedent that Alli had set. When Alli presented a new financial plan for the marriage, he was on board and now contributes more than 50% to the joint account and agreed to have a joint savings account, which are two pretty big steps.

I'm not saying that his "you wouldn't have insurance if it weren't for me" comment is acceptable, but if Alli approached him in a confrontational way because she was understandably upset, he may have said it as a defense mechanism. I don't know if that is the case because I wasn't there, I just know that in my own marriage I can be (and DH can be) defensive if one of us confronts the other in an agitated, angry state.

 

[Haven]

I read and enjoyed the Gottman books as well. They're reader friendly and practical. That was a great suggestion!

 

[Laila619]

Alli, I really feel for you. What an awful situation.

My question is, have you thought about what you will do if you become a stay at home mom someday? When does this whole his/hers money thing end? I can guarantee you he will feel resentful if you stay at home with your child, and he will feel like you aren't 'earning your keep.' Did you always go dutch when dating, or did he ever pay for you? When you go out to dinner now as a married couple, do you each pay 50% of the bill?

I think the bigger picture here is not really about money per se, it's that he is selfish and stingy. He looks out for himself first. I don't believe he sees you as a team, but as roommates who should pay exactly half their share with everything.

 

[rosetta]

Oh Alli

There are so many hard things to read on this thread, even with the best of intentions.

All relationships have issues, you are not alone.

Just wanted to give you another hug.

 

[kama_s]

NEL: I see what you're saying. I'm glad Alli posted this here on PS, because having different perspectives is definitely a valuable resource. I guess we all respond based on our own baggage/experience.

 

[missy]

I read and enjoyed the Gottman books as well. They're reader friendly and practical. That was a great suggestion!

I loved The Seven Principles of Making Marriage Work and my dh and I read it in the first few months of our marriage and it was a huge help in understanding how to communicate and disagree and resolve issues. It is an amazing book and we still use it as a resource. The key to using this book and its principles successfully though is having your husband read it with you. This is a definitely it takes two book.

Sending good wishes your way!

 

[Haven]

I read and enjoyed the Gottman books as well. They're reader friendly and practical. That was a great suggestion!

I loved The Seven Principles of Making Marriage Work and my dh and I read it in the first few months of our marriage and it was a huge help in understanding how to communicate and disagree and resolve issues. It is an amazing book and we still use it as a resource. The key to using this book and its principles successfully though is having your husband read it with you. This is a definitely it takes two book.

Sending good wishes your way!

Yes, I definitely agree with you, Missy. That's a great point. DH and I read the Seven Principles together, well, I read it to him, and it was a great experience.

 

[perry]

Alli:

I have extracted more of the story from your long response on the previous page - and added my comments as I now see more of the story. It may sound harsh - but I think it will help (and maybe its just an idiot guys reaction):

I also recommend the book "The 5 Love Languages" by Gary Chapman

I have been working though this response throughout the day in the hopes that I will be able to respond to everyone individually, because I honestly want you all to know how grateful I am for each of your thoughtful replies. I apologize for the redundancy of what I am saying below, but it was hard to respond to everyone who has been responding to me throughout the last 24 hours without repeating some stuff...

thanks to all of you who replied again--I appreciate it so much, even if it hurts.

-------------------

Perry has extracted and reordered bits and pieces:

I sent him an email during the day while we were both at work about the details of what had happened when I found out about it. Right off the bat, he told me how terrible he felt and what an idiot he felt like for doing this, what a waste it was, etc. I told him that what was done was done and that I just wanted to move on...that we should learn from this experience so that we should both be more conscious going forward.

This shows that he acknowledged his errors and took responsibility for his actions; and that you told him "OK - It's over and lets move on."

What bothers my is that as I have read the thread that it seems that you portrayed to me that he didn't and isn't taking responsibility. Guess what - we all make mistakes. If we have a healthy relationship we can acknowledge them and say we are sorry - and move on.

But then, where I lost him was about an hour later, was when I sent him an email I asked him if he thought it was fair that I should have to pay 100% of the taxes for the next two months (since even if/when he changes me to "spouse" for this coming year, it won't take effect until January 2011 and I would still owe for November and December 2010)...he asked what I was getting at...and I just said I wanted him to tell me what he thought was fair.

Say What?.... You have already told him that you accepted his apology - and to just move on... Now after further thought you want him to "pay" for his mistake.... Expecting people to "compensate" for every mistake is not going to produce a healthy relationship.

He got angry at me at that point because he thought I was being unnecessarily cryptic and he was stressed out and at work--that is when he lashed out and came back at me with the whole "you wouldn't even have health insurance without me," bit.

He's now defensive - and I suspect that he sees you as having changed your word on accepting his apology and just moving on. Defensive response - and I think many people could react this way.

He didn't lie to me, per se--he is totally irresponsible, but he's not dishonest. He is far from detail-oriented, and although I thought I made it clear to him that he needed to BOTH change his marital status for his W-2 as WELL as change my designation to "spouse" on his health insurance, he misunderstood and thought he did change both. He works in a very high-paced, very stressful work environment and he is generally forgetful in pretty much every aspect of his life, so I do believe him that he just neglected to change both or maybe at the time believed that changing one would automatically change the other--he doesn't remember and he said if he had realized it, he would have done what needed to get done...but it doesn't really surprise either of us that he didn't.

He is not totally irresponsible - if he was he would not be able to hold any job. The fact that he holds a reasonable paying job with full insurance means he can actually be fairly responsible. The fact that he is absent minded is not being irresponsible.

It doesn't make it in any way okay, of course, but it changes the character of his inaction from one of dishonesty to neglect. Neither is okay with me. I accept who he is and this does not make me love him less--but it does hurt and I will not have a child with someone as neglectful or as incapable of making even the tiniest bit of effort to do something that would help me.

Being absent minded is not neglect.

I don't see that I have invested more into this relationship than he has. Maybe people here would say that I'm crazy for feeling that way, but I do. I have gotten a lot from my husband over the years--I get a lot from him pretty much every day, really. Having him in my life has improved the quality of my life significantly. It has also made things a lot more complicated, but that is a tradeoff I am happy to make. I like solving problems, I like keeping very tight track of my finances--so those things are not a burden to me. I don't know that I'm trying to change him, per se...I want him simply to open his mind to a new way of thinking about our partnership, to something that will benefit us both in the long run.

You are trying to change him - and doing it in ways that not only don't work - but create further problems in the relationship. Probably the two of you are opposites - and you actually need what the other can provide (and working together you can do things that neither can do by themselves). He may need your detail problem solving skill. I am sure that he needs something from you (beyond sex) that you can provide him which is why he married you. The key here is to accept who he is and support him the best you can - without fear. Do that and he will start to respond to you and should naturally start looking for better ways to support you.

I don't CARE about the money--I just wanted him to make the EFFORT to make it right.

Lets see... he immediately acknowledged he made and error and apologized, he will correct the error by changing his status. But, you also want him to pay $$$$ too... and after you told him you accepted his apology and just wanted to move on. You don't CARE about the money.... You sure have me thinking otherwise.

Let me ask you a very simple question. If there was zero money implications of this mistake - would you have posted this thread and would it be an issue. Seems to my that you really do care about the money - and you are basing parts of your relationship on it.

I have eaten the money, that part is fine...it worries me, however, because I ask him to do so very, very little in our relationship and, without fail, he never does what I ask him without my having to badger him repeatedly. This is not an isolated incident...that is why I am fearful to reproduce with him--not because he made one little mistake, but because I cannot count on him to do anything that needs to be done. Thanks for your comment--I was truthfully a bit relieved to see someone who understands where I know DH is coming from.

when I see "he doesn't care about her," obviously that really hits a nerve. That is my greatest fear. Like I said to kama, I don't know if it's true or not, but he's certainly making me feel that it is the case. No matter how I explain it to him, he doesn't see how this set of circumstances demonstrates to me that he doesn't care about me. He insists that isn't true, but I keep telling him--his ACTIONS (or inactions) speak for themselves.

You really do need to read "The 5 love languages" ASAP. I am betting that he does care - deeply. You just don't see it because your methods of communication are different. Leaders take charge - and while it would be nice if your husband would figure it out - he probably is not getting the same kind of advice you are getting here; so its up to you to learn his love language and learn to communicate with him. When you do that - he will probably respond likewise.

My other thought - is what are your Actions (or inactions) telling him....


I wish you the best,

Perry

 

[TooPatient]

Alli:

I have extracted more of the story from your long response on the previous page - and added my comments as I now see more of the story. It may sound harsh - but I think it will help (and maybe its just an idiot guys reaction):

I also recommend the book "The 5 Love Languages" by Gary Chapman

I have been working though this response throughout the day in the hopes that I will be able to respond to everyone individually, because I honestly want you all to know how grateful I am for each of your thoughtful replies. I apologize for the redundancy of what I am saying below, but it was hard to respond to everyone who has been responding to me throughout the last 24 hours without repeating some stuff...

thanks to all of you who replied again--I appreciate it so much, even if it hurts.

-------------------

Perry has extracted and reordered bits and pieces:

I sent him an email during the day while we were both at work about the details of what had happened when I found out about it. Right off the bat, he told me how terrible he felt and what an idiot he felt like for doing this, what a waste it was, etc. I told him that what was done was done and that I just wanted to move on...that we should learn from this experience so that we should both be more conscious going forward.

This shows that he acknowledged his errors and took responsibility for his actions; and that you told him "OK - It's over and lets move on."

What bothers my is that as I have read the thread that it seems that you portrayed to me that he didn't and isn't taking responsibility. Guess what - we all make mistakes. If we have a healthy relationship we can acknowledge them and say we are sorry - and move on.

But then, where I lost him was about an hour later, was when I sent him an email I asked him if he thought it was fair that I should have to pay 100% of the taxes for the next two months (since even if/when he changes me to "spouse" for this coming year, it won't take effect until January 2011 and I would still owe for November and December 2010)...he asked what I was getting at...and I just said I wanted him to tell me what he thought was fair.

Say What?.... You have already told him that you accepted his apology - and to just move on... Now after further thought you want him to "pay" for his mistake.... Expecting people to "compensate" for every mistake is not going to produce a healthy relationship.

He got angry at me at that point because he thought I was being unnecessarily cryptic and he was stressed out and at work--that is when he lashed out and came back at me with the whole "you wouldn't even have health insurance without me," bit.

He's now defensive - and I suspect that he sees you as having changed your word on accepting his apology and just moving on. Defensive response - and I think many people could react this way.

He didn't lie to me, per se--he is totally irresponsible, but he's not dishonest. He is far from detail-oriented, and although I thought I made it clear to him that he needed to BOTH change his marital status for his W-2 as WELL as change my designation to "spouse" on his health insurance, he misunderstood and thought he did change both. He works in a very high-paced, very stressful work environment and he is generally forgetful in pretty much every aspect of his life, so I do believe him that he just neglected to change both or maybe at the time believed that changing one would automatically change the other--he doesn't remember and he said if he had realized it, he would have done what needed to get done...but it doesn't really surprise either of us that he didn't.

He is not totally irresponsible - if he was he would not be able to hold any job. The fact that he holds a reasonable paying job with full insurance means he can actually be fairly responsible. The fact that he is absent minded is not being irresponsible.

It doesn't make it in any way okay, of course, but it changes the character of his inaction from one of dishonesty to neglect. Neither is okay with me. I accept who he is and this does not make me love him less--but it does hurt and I will not have a child with someone as neglectful or as incapable of making even the tiniest bit of effort to do something that would help me.

Being absent minded is not neglect.

I don't see that I have invested more into this relationship than he has. Maybe people here would say that I'm crazy for feeling that way, but I do. I have gotten a lot from my husband over the years--I get a lot from him pretty much every day, really. Having him in my life has improved the quality of my life significantly. It has also made things a lot more complicated, but that is a tradeoff I am happy to make. I like solving problems, I like keeping very tight track of my finances--so those things are not a burden to me. I don't know that I'm trying to change him, per se...I want him simply to open his mind to a new way of thinking about our partnership, to something that will benefit us both in the long run.

You are trying to change him - and doing it in ways that not only don't work - but create further problems in the relationship. Probably the two of you are opposites - and you actually need what the other can provide (and working together you can do things that neither can do by themselves). He may need your detail problem solving skill. I am sure that he needs something from you (beyond sex) that you can provide him which is why he married you. The key here is to accept who he is and support him the best you can - without fear. Do that and he will start to respond to you and should naturally start looking for better ways to support you.

I don't CARE about the money--I just wanted him to make the EFFORT to make it right.

Lets see... he immediately acknowledged he made and error and apologized, he will correct the error by changing his status. But, you also want him to pay $$$$ too... and after you told him you accepted his apology and just wanted to move on. You don't CARE about the money.... You sure have me thinking otherwise.

Let me ask you a very simple question. If there was zero money implications of this mistake - would you have posted this thread and would it be an issue. Seems to my that you really do care about the money - and you are basing parts of your relationship on it.

I have eaten the money, that part is fine...it worries me, however, because I ask him to do so very, very little in our relationship and, without fail, he never does what I ask him without my having to badger him repeatedly. This is not an isolated incident...that is why I am fearful to reproduce with him--not because he made one little mistake, but because I cannot count on him to do anything that needs to be done. Thanks for your comment--I was truthfully a bit relieved to see someone who understands where I know DH is coming from.

when I see "he doesn't care about her," obviously that really hits a nerve. That is my greatest fear. Like I said to kama, I don't know if it's true or not, but he's certainly making me feel that it is the case. No matter how I explain it to him, he doesn't see how this set of circumstances demonstrates to me that he doesn't care about me. He insists that isn't true, but I keep telling him--his ACTIONS (or inactions) speak for themselves.

You really do need to read "The 5 love languages" ASAP. I am betting that he does care - deeply. You just don't see it because your methods of communication are different. Leaders take charge - and while it would be nice if your husband would figure it out - he probably is not getting the same kind of advice you are getting here; so its up to you to learn his love language and learn to communicate with him. When you do that - he will probably respond likewise.

My other thought - is what are your Actions (or inactions) telling him....


I wish you the best,

Perry

Perry --- VERY well written & wonderful insight.

Alli -- I really hope you read Perry's response and give it some thought. It is so easy for us to see flaws/defects/quirks in other people and so hard to see them in ourselves. There is NOTHING wrong with you. You're just like all of us regular people - you have stuff you need to work on too. Perry did great quoting different bits of what you said and laying them out. Please read (and re-read) his post.

Good luck and I do hope you'll really read and reflect on the responses you got here. You and your husband can be a wonderful marriage TEAM if you both work together and are open to the possibility that it isn't all the other person's fault.

 

[Haven]

I disagree. I think Perry's post offers wonderful insight about how Alli's DH might be interpreting the situation, but the issues here extend beyond semantics (he is or isn't irresponsible, for example) and a change of heart (first you said "no problem" and now you're upset.) And I certainly don't think this is simply a communication issue, and that reading about love languages and then adjusting to her husband's is the solution.

I also don't think this is occuring because Alli lacks self awareness, as TooPatient suggests.

I see a recurring issue that stems from Alli and her DH's trust of one another, and their ability or inability to trust is affecting their relationship, and their financial choices, specifically.

Yes, it is important to be clear; it is confusing when one partner changes her mind about she feels about a situation; it is vital to understand the way our partners show love; and a little self awareness goes a long way. However, when there is a specific, damaging, recurring issue in a relationship, that issue needs to be addressed head on, in my opinion. Alli seems to be aware of this, and she has taken huge steps to try and work out their financial issues. These financial issues seem to be symptomatic of a latent inability to trust that Mr. Alli seems to have, and all of the clarity, reliability, understanding, and self awareness in the world isn't going to make that go away. They will help them have successful conversations about this issue, but they aren't the answer. In my very humble opinion.

 

[missy]

I disagree. I think Perry's post offers wonderful insight about how Alli's DH might be interpreting the situation, but the issues here extend beyond semantics (he is or isn't irresponsible, for example) and a change of heart (first you said "no problem" and now you're upset.) And I certainly don't think this is simply a communication issue, and that reading about love languages and then adjusting to her husband's is the solution.

I also don't think this is occuring because Alli lacks self awareness, as TooPatient suggests.

I see a recurring issue that stems from Alli and her DH's trust of one another, and their ability or inability to trust is affecting their relationship, and their financial choices, specifically.

Yes, it is important to be clear; it is confusing when one partner changes her mind about she feels about a situation; it is vital to understand the way our partners show love; and a little self awareness goes a long way. However, when there is a specific, damaging, recurring issue in a relationship, that issue needs to be addressed head on, in my opinion. Alli seems to be aware of this, and she has taken huge steps to try and work out their financial issues. These financial issues seem to be symptomatic of a latent inability to trust that Mr. Alli seems to have, and all of the clarity, reliability, understanding, and self awareness in the world isn't going to make that go away. They will help them have successful conversations about this issue, but they aren't the answer. In my very humble opinion.

I agree completely with Haven's assessment.
It comes down to trust.
Trust is a vital part of every successful relationship and there is no compromising on that.

 

[TooPatient]

I disagree. I think Perry's post offers wonderful insight about how Alli's DH might be interpreting the situation, but the issues here extend beyond semantics (he is or isn't irresponsible, for example) and a change of heart (first you said "no problem" and now you're upset.) And I certainly don't think this is simply a communication issue, and that reading about love languages and then adjusting to her husband's is the solution.

I also don't think this is occuring because Alli lacks self awareness, as TooPatient suggests.

I see a recurring issue that stems from Alli and her DH's trust of one another, and their ability or inability to trust is affecting their relationship, and their financial choices, specifically.
Yes, it is important to be clear; it is confusing when one partner changes her mind about she feels about a situation; it is vital to understand the way our partners show love; and a little self awareness goes a long way. However, when there is a specific, damaging, recurring issue in a relationship, that issue needs to be addressed head on, in my opinion. Alli seems to be aware of this, and she has taken huge steps to try and work out their financial issues. These financial issues seem to be symptomatic of a latent inability to trust that Mr. Alli seems to have, and all of the clarity, reliability, understanding, and self awareness in the world isn't going to make that go away. They will help them have successful conversations about this issue, but they aren't the answer. In my very humble opinion.

I agree with the highlighted statement above. Trust seems to be a huge issue in their relationship -- for both of them.
I don't think this is an issue that can be separated from good communication. They both need to be able to say what they think/feel/need in a way that can be understood by the other. They need to know how to clarify things if one or the other thinks something has been misunderstood. They need to be consistent (I know thoughts/feelings/needs change over time but saying "let's move on" and then an hour later saying "you owe me" would leave anyone defensive/confused).

I don't think a relationship can really have trust unless there is some level of positive communication (fights are okay, disagreeing is okay) so they can build that trust. They aren't mind readers. They need to be able to communicate what they want/need with each other or they will continue to have problems because "he didn't do what I asked" or "she said okay and then not okay".

I'm not suggesting that reading any book is The solution -- just that reading a good book (or several) about relationships (communication, trust building, etc) would be a step in the right direction since counseling isn't really an option for them right now. They both need to work together on this or it won't be effective. Part of working together is considering what you can do to improve the situation instead of pointing a finger and saying that "You have to do this because You have issues".

An example of what I mean by what she can do ----- My FI has a financial background very similar to Alli's DH -- I was shocked at how much more relaxed he was (and in turn happier, more affectionate, better able to remember stuff that needed done, etc) with just a few small things that I was able to do (make sure there is a full canister of flour, an extra bottle of olive oil, some frozen veggies). It didn't seem like anything to me but in listening to him talk I realized that it made him tense/worried/stressed if we didn't have a bit extra of some basics in the kitchen --------
---- Each little thing that either of them can learn from the other (even if they don't know it themselves) can reduce the overall stress and help build that trust & sense of security that they need.

 

[alli_esq]

Wow, I am so amazed and grateful that you are all reading my crazy-long posts and still giving me such great feedback. Thank you so much! It is wonderful to get all of your opinions, coming from all different kinds of backgrounds. I would like to think that I'm capable of taking everyone's words from where they come, in the sense that none of us knows one another...and certainly when I wrote that emotional post a few days ago I hadn't processed everything yet...but thank you for sticking with me, guys.

I am sorry it has taken me a while to get back to all of you, but that's just because I've been busy and tired--not because I haven't been keeping up with your comments or ignoring any of you!

charbie: It is true that I am putting in a lot of effort into my marriage, but I am fine with that. I don't know anyone who has a happy marriage who doesn't have to work at it (at least at times)...I don't even mind spending the time it takes to work out the financial minutia (I have low-level, self-diagnosed OCD...so lists and spreadsheets are somewhat comforting to me, hehe). I am just disappointed in DH that he didn't hold up his end (which is a lot lighter than mine--again, self-created, but still). It is very nice that you have an arrangement with your husband that works so well for you and I wish you continued success with one another.

autumnovember: Oh, gosh, you don't suck at ALL! Thank you so much for responding and I am sorry if I seemed to be critical of you. thanks for saying I'm an amazing wife, haha--sometimes I am, but I certainly have my flaws too. I can only post things from my perspective, after all, and my husband is pretty great himself...we are just having this particular problem at this moment, which hopefully will be resolved eventually. I hope I don't exhaust myself, of course, but you may well be right, if things don't change. Thanks again.

junebug: Thank you!

neatfreak: You are so sweet. I am not sure I am that emotionally mature (and I have to say, DH definitely wouldn't agree with you most days, haha!)...I am a very sensitive person, though I try my best to be understanding and self-aware enough not to go off the deep end, I often do. I cry a LOT.

Unfortunately, I don't know that DH thinks I've never betrayed him (though I don't believe I ever have). We have had some pretty awful fights over the years and said some pretty damaging things to one another. Things between us ever since we moved in together (about 3 1/2 years ago) have been considerably better, but we are both very sensitive and react easily (...we're both getting better about that, but it is something on which we both have to actively work ...) DH in particular tends to take things extremely personally and has difficulty letting go of past arguments. We have learned to fight better than we used to, but we still have a LONG way to go (DH, for instance, has the problem that when he is mad at me for ONE thing, he is mad at me for EVERYthing I have ever done...NOT a good fighting technique. obviously.)

Anyway, my point is, I guess, that I'm far from perfect in this scenario (or in any fight we've had, for that matter). I don't blame DH for all this. I do take some responsibility, though DH did disappoint me here. Thank you for looking out for me--you have a really lovely way of communicating and I appreciate it.

Haven: Thank you for your very kind words. I am trying to be as honest and as open as I can be with everyone's comments. Sometimes I need to give myself a bit of time to respond to really get my thoughts together, but I try to remember that people are trying to help me, not work against me, so that staves off some of the defensiveness I might feel when I initially read some of the responses.

I agree with virtually everything you said. I know everyone has problems in their relationships and honestly, I feel exactly the same way you do about not knowing what goes on behind closed doors. I don't tend to idealize others' relationships because I know even the best couples I know have at it once in a while (I believe that is part of life).

Vix: I especially think your gender-role comment is so true...but really, your whole post really spoke to me and I agree wholeheartedly. I am very much of the mind that everyone is entitled to their own list of criterion for a partner and I never ever ever have to agree with anyone else about theirs, just as they never have to agree with mine. I don't feel the need to prove to anyone that my relationship is one that brings me joy because the truth of it is--who cares besides me? If people want to talk about me, let them. I am the one who has to live my life, no one else. You put it excellently. I posted here to get different perspectives that might make me understand how to approach this particular issue at this particular moment--and that is precisely what I have gotten. I so appreciate it.

princesss: Thank you so much

mz: I appreciate your candor and your perspective--thank you!

kama: No need to apologize, of course. You were giving me your opinion, and that is precisely how I took it--it just was difficult to read, as I'm sure you understand.

I get where you're saying. However, I don't know that people learn as easily or as quickly as you and your husband have learned about each other. Sometimes, in fights, I think most people do have the propensity to say hurtful things in order to lash out at the other, whether it be because they are defensive or hurt or for whatever reason (hopefully those occasions do not happen frequently). In this situation, however, I don't know that my husband verbalized his feelings to me with the actual purpose of hurting me. Instead, he is simply trying to be honest with me, and honesty is something that I hold much dearer than attempts to walk on eggshells. I don't think it's as easy as him saying "oh, I get it--it hurts you to know that I am irresponsible--I won't be that anymore!" or "I see that it hurts you for me to think you should pay for the health insurance tax on your own because you are the one getting the benefit, even if it was my fault that the tax had to be paid--I'll change my mind so I don't hurt you!" These are beliefs he has, these are fundamental ideals. I don't think he can change them with the snap of the fingers. If he could, I'd question how important his beliefs were--but that isn't the case...he's a pretty firmly-cemented dude. Not that he can't change for the better, but he is really rather rooted in certain ideas and it takes time (and yeah, sometimes he won't change, just like I won't change certain things about myself).

Maybe he doesn't put me before himself, but in his experience, he has found that self-preservation does come above all...and I honestly don't blame him for feeling that way or expect that particular feeling to change. While I do make certain concessions for my relationship (so does he, to an extent), I also think it's important that we both continue to look out for ourselves TOO, because if we don't, there is a really great risk of unrealized resentment...and I'm the type of person who would rather have that resentment OUT THERE than cooped up inside, festering. I'd rather have a knock-down, drag-out than always be wondering if he is just "okay"ing me to death. He's a strong-willed guy, I'm a strong-willed gal, and that is how I like us...though it can and does cause problems when we reach disagreements like this one.

Thank you for your bear hugs! I love those.

As far as whether or not people are suggesting that if I don't combine all finances with DH, my marriage will be over...well...I do think there have been some folks who have said almost exactly that...but that's okay. I'm here for the varying opinions, and that's thankfully what I've gotten. I would like to believe I am capable of wading through some of the judgment I have received to get to the core of people's advice and positions...even if it takes me a couple of times reading the response to get there

argylemarionette: Well, like I said, I don't know if you should give me too much credit. DH is pretty mature about a lot of things--much moreso than I am in many cases...but I will take your compliment nonetheless

NEL: You are so right about my not approaching DH in the most productive way possible...I realize that you are right, I did approach him in a confrontational way, and it's not fair for me to assess his behavior based on that. I intend on having further conversations with him after this week is over (due to the nature of DH's job, election weeks are BRUTAL...and he is working this coming weekend too, so although I thought it would be a good time to talk tonight, unfortunately I am going to have to wait until next week to get his complete attention). Thank you so much for your advice and your support.

TooPatient: It is true that I was the one who said I would continue to go 50-50 when I lost my job. I thought that was a relevant fact--probably should have said that at the start...but I guess I should explain it all now (sorry for the spotty info--I hope you understand that it would be almost impossible for me to post every relevant conversation we've ever had in the course of my responses, hehe).

DH and I never really talked about me NOT being 50-50 until about 5-6 months into my unemployment, when things started to get really really tight and difficult for me financially. (I had been doing okay until I started having to pay more interest on my loans around January/February 2010). At that point, I mentioned to DH that I would like to suggest a different way for us to begin paying for our bills, etc., so that things might be a bit easier on me financially. I lost my job in July 2009, we got married in November 2009, and this was several months after we were married, to me it didn't seem like SUCH a crazy idea that we might change things at that point. However, he became absolutely defensive, saying that although he would help me out a bit more, he would ONLY do what HE felt comfortable doing. His offer was that he would put my half of our $80/month that we had been chipping in to our joint "travel" fund (in other words, an extra $40/month) and that he would take me out to dinner more.

That really upset me at that point. It had taken a lot for me to even admit to him that I was having a hard time making ends meet, and it felt like a slap in the face that he was only willing to put aside $40/month for me, basically "treat" me at his own discretion, and continue saving in his own savings account. Instead of that, I told him to forget it, and that was pretty much the last we spoke about it until the summer, when I began working on a more full-time basis again. (He did pay for dinner--maybe somewhere between 10-20 times, I didn't keep track--during January through June 2010.)

So, while it was my idea to keep it at 50-50 because I felt so guilty, when push came to shove and I was finding it difficult to contribute that much, DH was really not up for it when I was earning considerably less than I am now (now, I make only about $10k/year less than he does). I think one of the main reasons he is up for our current arrangement now is because we are more on parity than we've ever been before.

Anyway, that's some background, if that helps at all.

Okay, back to what you were saying--as far as it being difficult for me to be a team also...you are absolutely correct. This is the first time in my life I have had to look out for more than myself in this way and it is a bit stressful...and please keep in mind, I am only 2 months into this process I did not mean to say that it was only difficult for my husband--this is definitely a mutual issue! the only difference is that for me, my end goal is to be a team (even though I might not be 100% there yet!) and I am not really sure that DH is totally ready for that. If I were to lose my job tomorrow again (OMG I AM AFRAID TO EVEN SAY THAT!!! AAAA!) I do not think he would want to continue doing what we're doing now, though I haven't discussed it with him (though I guess I should??? ugh that is just NOT a conversation I want to have right now.)

I don't recall hearing of the Gottman material before (it is possible that I just forgot!), and I am certainly up for it...but that is SO not the sort of thing that DH would be interested in reading. Not only is he not much for reading (at all) or self-help, even when I tried to get him to sit down with me and read some of the financial planning book I purchased this summer, he scoffed. I'm much more into the touchy-feely self-improvement stuff than he is. I don't know that he would get involved in that...but I will look into it more and try to present it to him in a positive way if I think it would help us. I appreciate that you've suggested it!

Laila: Well, that is a perfectly reasonable question, but I can tell you: I won't be a stay-at-home mom. That's for pretty much certain. We live in an area of the country that is extremely expensive and we have careers that do not generate enough income to live on one of them (we find it difficult even with two). So, financially, SAHmotherhood is not in my future. Plus, it is my own preference to work, regardless--I actually really love it. But, as far as the going "Dutch" thing...I mean, sorta, yeah. Once in a while, he'd take me out when we were dating (it was rare that I would take him out, though, except for birthdays, because I was a poor student and then just poor throughout our relationship), but yeah, we did the 50-50 thing up until September 1, 2010. I like to think we are more than roommates, but I can see how someone else might see it that way.

rosetta: Thank you again, dear!

missy: I will definitely look into it--thank you for the recommendation!

perry: Thank you so very much for your post--I will send a separate message in a short while to respond to you in the same manner in which you wrote to me, if that's okay! I have some issues with the whole "quoting" thing, and I want to be able to make my reply clear.

I will try and respond to everyone else in a bit as well. Thank you all again.

 

[alli_esq]

perry: First of all, thank you for SUCH a thoughtful response. So great that I could get your input.

Alli:

I also recommend the book "The 5 Love Languages" by Gary Chapman

-------------------

I will certainly look into it, thank you for the recommendation.

I sent him an email during the day while we were both at work about the details of what had happened when I found out about it. Right off the bat, he told me how terrible he felt and what an idiot he felt like for doing this, what a waste it was, etc. I told him that what was done was done and that I just wanted to move on...that we should learn from this experience so that we should both be more conscious going forward.

This shows that he acknowledged his errors and took responsibility for his actions; and that you told him "OK - It's over and lets move on."

What bothers my is that as I have read the thread that it seems that you portrayed to me that he didn't and isn't taking responsibility. Guess what - we all make mistakes. If we have a healthy relationship we can acknowledge them and say we are sorry - and move on.

But then, where I lost him was about an hour later, was when I sent him an email I asked him if he thought it was fair that I should have to pay 100% of the taxes for the next two months (since even if/when he changes me to "spouse" for this coming year, it won't take effect until January 2011 and I would still owe for November and December 2010)...he asked what I was getting at...and I just said I wanted him to tell me what he thought was fair.

Say What?.... You have already told him that you accepted his apology - and to just move on... Now after further thought you want him to "pay" for his mistake.... Expecting people to "compensate" for every mistake is not going to produce a healthy relationship.
-------------------

He got angry at me at that point because he thought I was being unnecessarily cryptic and he was stressed out and at work--that is when he lashed out and came back at me with the whole "you wouldn't even have health insurance without me," bit.

He's now defensive - and I suspect that he sees you as having changed your word on accepting his apology and just moving on. Defensive response - and I think many people could react this way.
-------------------

I can't say that I disagree with you. The way that I handled that situation was wrong, absolutely. DH is entitled to make a mistake--we all are (at least I hope, since I make mistakes just like everyone else).

However, two things I'd like to mention:

(1) Notwithstanding the fact that I was wrong in the way I handled it, if this were a one-off mistake, I can assure you that I would not have been as upset as I was/am (and for sure, you wouldn't have been reading about it on PS!)...this is just one example of the long, long, long list of inaction DH has taken, particularly in the past few months.

When we decided this summer to finally begin combining our finances, we each made a list of what we would each be responsible for doing in order to begin the process. I had already taken steps by ordering new cards for both of our accounts, adding him as a joint cardholder on my credit card to better his credit, changing all of our expenses to which I had access to connect with our new joint accounts, etc. Suffice it to say, my list was considerably longer than his was--and we (collectively) chose a deadline of September 1 for him to make whatever changes he had to make. He had about 7 things to do on that list in early August. Despite my daily reminders to him (emails that made it impossibly clear what he had to do and by when), he still hadn't done 4 of them by September 1. As of today, 2 of those things have still not been done.

He just doesn't do what he commits to do. He knows it's important to me because I tell him all the time. He just simply doesn't care enough to do them. I can see that the health insurance tax thing was mistake, but does that mean that these tiny account changes (not one of which would take more than 5 minutes to complete) have also been mistakes? It's just frustrating that this is a constant issue with him, especially when I really do try to make his responsibilities as discrete and simple as I possibly can and I do as much myself as I can.

(2) Not that it makes my behavior acceptable, but just by way of explaining what I was thinking...
In my world, if I do something wrong, I feel guilt and an immediate sense of wanting to make the thing I did right. If the roles had been reversed, I would have felt just awful and would have immediately done absolutely anything to try and reverse the error--I'd make the phone calls, I'd give him back the money he lost, I'd just feel a tremendous sense of guilt.

The way I see it, there are so many situations when a person (him, me, anyone) makes a mistake that cannot be reversed or cannot be solved by the person making the mistake. This, to me, was an easy one:
A didn't do something he committed to do
that mistake made B lose X
A has X
A can reimburse B for the lost X

Anyway, obviously he nor you see it that way (and you are both entitled, most definitely!), but to me it just seemed so simple that to not even offer to try and make me whole (or what I would have considered to be whole) just made no sense to me and that is why I reacted that way.

Again, I shouldn't have dealt with it the way that I did, but I still do see the situation that way.

He didn't lie to me, per se--he is totally irresponsible, but he's not dishonest. He is far from detail-oriented, and although I thought I made it clear to him that he needed to BOTH change his marital status for his W-2 as WELL as change my designation to "spouse" on his health insurance, he misunderstood and thought he did change both. He works in a very high-paced, very stressful work environment and he is generally forgetful in pretty much every aspect of his life, so I do believe him that he just neglected to change both or maybe at the time believed that changing one would automatically change the other--he doesn't remember and he said if he had realized it, he would have done what needed to get done...but it doesn't really surprise either of us that he didn't.

He is not totally irresponsible - if he was he would not be able to hold any job. The fact that he holds a reasonable paying job with full insurance means he can actually be fairly responsible. The fact that he is absent minded is not being irresponsible.

It doesn't make it in any way okay, of course, but it changes the character of his inaction from one of dishonesty to neglect. Neither is okay with me. I accept who he is and this does not make me love him less--but it does hurt and I will not have a child with someone as neglectful or as incapable of making even the tiniest bit of effort to do something that would help me.

Being absent minded is not neglect.
-------------------

Yes, yes, I hyperbolized--ya caught me

Of course he is not *totally* irresponsible! He is, in fact, INCREDIBLY responsible at work--no doubt about it. He is totally capable and successful and I am always impressed with how efficient he is...at work. Now, the fact that I know how good he is at work...well...that makes the fact that he is always (ALWAYS)..."absent-minded" when it comes to what little (truly, little) I ask him to do seems even more insulting and personal. He is capable of doing better--he just doesn't think what I ask him to do is important enough in general to make it a priority.

Again, if this were a one-off, you would never hear me complain. It would have been annoying, I would have been pissed, but I would never have found it earth-shattering enough to post about it on PS, for sure. Trust me, it is a very, very, very common occurrence, for him to promise to do something and not to do it. It's just that usually, I don't ask things of him that would save me money (or anything of value), since I almost always take care of the most important issues myself. This, however, was 100% out of my control, and he was the only person who could make this change.

I don't see that I have invested more into this relationship than he has. Maybe people here would say that I'm crazy for feeling that way, but I do. I have gotten a lot from my husband over the years--I get a lot from him pretty much every day, really. Having him in my life has improved the quality of my life significantly. It has also made things a lot more complicated, but that is a tradeoff I am happy to make. I like solving problems, I like keeping very tight track of my finances--so those things are not a burden to me. I don't know that I'm trying to change him, per se...I want him simply to open his mind to a new way of thinking about our partnership, to something that will benefit us both in the long run.

You are trying to change him - and doing it in ways that not only don't work - but create further problems in the relationship. Probably the two of you are opposites - and you actually need what the other can provide (and working together you can do things that neither can do by themselves). He may need your detail problem solving skill. I am sure that he needs something from you (beyond sex) that you can provide him which is why he married you. The key here is to accept who he is and support him the best you can - without fear. Do that and he will start to respond to you and should naturally start looking for better ways to support you.

I don't CARE about the money--I just wanted him to make the EFFORT to make it right.

Lets see... he immediately acknowledged he made and error and apologized, he will correct the error by changing his status. But, you also want him to pay $$$$ too... and after you told him you accepted his apology and just wanted to move on. You don't CARE about the money.... You sure have me thinking otherwise.

Let me ask you a very simple question. If there was zero money implications of this mistake - would you have posted this thread and would it be an issue. Seems to my that you really do care about the money - and you are basing parts of your relationship on it.
-------------------

I guess it depends on what the circumstances were--if he had cost me something else that was dear to me, then yes, I would. If he had cost me...I don't know...my hair. Yeah, I'd post about it. If he had cost me a relationship with someone I love...yes, I would. But y'know, if he had cost me a turkey sandwich...no, I wouldn't. It's that he cost me something of significance [whether or not $2,000 will mean a lot to me in 20 years, it did mean a lot to me when I was bringing in under $1,300 per month]--and something that is fungible and capable of being recouped that I would have expected him to want to make me whole.

When I say I don't care about the money, I mean I don't really want him to give me the money. I see him GIVING me the money as a different issue than him WANTING to give me the money, if that makes sense.

I have eaten the money, that part is fine...it worries me, however, because I ask him to do so very, very little in our relationship and, without fail, he never does what I ask him without my having to badger him repeatedly. This is not an isolated incident...that is why I am fearful to reproduce with him--not because he made one little mistake, but because I cannot count on him to do anything that needs to be done. Thanks for your comment--I was truthfully a bit relieved to see someone who understands where I know DH is coming from.

when I see "he doesn't care about her," obviously that really hits a nerve. That is my greatest fear. Like I said to kama, I don't know if it's true or not, but he's certainly making me feel that it is the case. No matter how I explain it to him, he doesn't see how this set of circumstances demonstrates to me that he doesn't care about me. He insists that isn't true, but I keep telling him--his ACTIONS (or inactions) speak for themselves.

You really do need to read "The 5 love languages" ASAP. I am betting that he does care - deeply. You just don't see it because your methods of communication are different. Leaders take charge - and while it would be nice if your husband would figure it out - he probably is not getting the same kind of advice you are getting here; so its up to you to learn his love language and learn to communicate with him. When you do that - he will probably respond likewise.

Thank you for the suggestion--I will most definitely look into it.

You are right that I do believe my DH does care about me...I just don't know if it's the way I need him to in order to feel comfortable about the future of our relatinoship.

My other thought - is what are your Actions (or inactions) telling him....


I wish you the best,

Perry

You and me both, Perry! Thank you so much for your post--definitely a lot of food for thought.

 

[TooPatient]

alli -- You might get your DH to go along with the self help thing if it is.... fun.
The Gottman's have cards (like decks of cards) in addition to the books. One deck is the "Love Map" -- pretty much questions you can ask each other (what is your favorite food, what is currently stressing you at work, etc) or play as a game and have fun while showing how much you know about each other (and learning what you might not know -- like current friends at work)

The other I'm sure he'd be up for -- The Salsa Deck.
There is mild, medium, and hot included in the deck and you go with the level that is comfortable for both.
Mild is mostly romantic/sweet stuff that I find really helps us to re-connect and stay out of rutts. (go to dinner at a place you've never been, watch a funny movie together, go for a walk & hold hands, surprise each other with a small gift, etc)
Medium is a bit more . (spend time just kissing, give a full body massage, try a new position, etc)
Hot is well... . (see how many rooms you can in, food items, and more)

May seem a bit off topic, but your DH may be willing to play with these cards. Deciding how to use the cards (go through each one, toss out a level, pull a card/discuss/pull another if needed, toss out the "no way" cards and shuffle the rest) and actually doing some of the activities might be a good way to work at teaming. (I like that the mild section really brings you together.)

 

[monarch64]

Dear Alli:

I have also followed your threads, including this one, and am dismayed and sad for you. I truly feel that you and your husband might just be mis-matched as a couple, I'm sorry to say. (I don't mean to come off as cavalier or arrogant, please forgive me if I do.)

It is my opinion that you cannot "fix" someone else who has deep-rooted issues. They have to (much like addicts) find it within themselves to make the decision to really, REALLY change. Maybe your husband will figure things out someday by himself or with the help of an outsider, but I just don't see, from what I've read from you here, that he will actually do any changing anytime soon.

I am typically an optimist and a positive thinker. In this case, I have to say I don't feel much hope for your marriage. I get a huge sense of discontent and sorrow from your posts, and the way you describe his dealings with you just leaves me feeling despair!

Bottom line: relationships and marriage take tons of work, yes. But, they shouldn't take so much work that all you're doing is working and having almost no fun or good times (even though you say that there are lots of positive things about your marriage). A great relationship, to me, just doesn't take THAT. MUCH. WORK. Nothing about your marriage (from what you've described) seems joyful. I wholeheartedly agree with Bliss that you are a prize and your husband hasn't recognized that fact at all. I hope that things either turn around quickly this time, or that you re-evaluate your situation and get the heck out of there. Again, it is not your job in life to fix this man. Be honest with yourself, please, and make decisions that involve YOUR happiness and survival in life, and stop dwelling on his issues and letting him have that hold over you. Lots of hugs to you, and best of luck.

 

[Vix]

Gottman also has a series of audiobooks and DVDs -- MUCH more user-friendly for the types who aren't into self-help *books.* I believe you can test drive some excerpts of the audiobooks via one of the big sites.

IME the "5 Languages" is very useful for stubborn people who can't understand why their partner doesn't show they care by doing things "the right way"!

[Which is how I ended up spending Mr Vix's birthday painting a basement ("Service") vs taking him to a nice dinner/hiking/on an overnight trip etc ("Quality Time"/"Gifts") and why I now get notes ("Affirmation") instead of car tune-ups ("Service"/"Gifts") for my special occasions, ha.]

 

[Laila619]

Alli, thanks for answering my questions--you certainly didn't have to do that, but I appreciate you being so open with us.

Having said that, it's sad to me that when you were dating your DH, you almost always went 50/50. You deserve someone who will wine and dine you, court you, pick up the check, and spoil you a little! Every woman deserves to have that experience IMO. It's not really about money, it's about generosity and chivalry--I've had boyfriends before DH who were pretty much broke and they still wanted to pay for me on all our dates. Bliss is right, you are the prize.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Also, I know a lot of sentiment here has been along the lines of "if you don't combine every asset and/or if you're ever disrespectful to each other, your marriage is OVER!". Which is hogwash. Combining everything does not work for every couple. It doesn't mean that you aren't committed or that you don't trust your spouse, it just works better for some couples. That's it. Also, I'd wager that every single person on this earth has pissed off his/her spouse. We've ALL said something stupid, done something stupid. Gotten cranky because we're hungry or tired or feeling guilty. If it happens regularly, that's one issue. If it happens every so often, that's life.

So I hope you're feeling a little better today and just want to say "congrats" on all the progress you've made with your DH and for keeping your chin up in this situation.

very true!!!... wife and i both agreed to never talk about money...

 

[zhuzhu]

Hi Alli,

I am sorry that you are going through a rough time. While I can imagine how frustrated you must feel, I don't think your marriage is really as bad as what some friends here have suggested. The bottom line is that he is too stressed out at work to deal with your anxiety about money, and you are too worried about money issue to be more understanding of his temperament.

Even though you had already worked out a new "finance plan", I am just not so sure he is as "into it" as you. He might just be agreeing to it so you will leave him alone. Sometimes we let our anxiety get to us so much that we become chronic naggers - and that is not effective in getting what we want.

If I were you, I will drop the topic all together for 3 months. Come back to the money issue later, give it a break. Talk about common interest you 2 have, re-learn to love each other again for what you like each other for to begin with. $2K may be a lot of money, but isn't your sanity and happiness worth a lot more than that? Even though you have debt, aren't you not well-fed and having a roof over your head? Think more about what you HAVE instead of what you don't have. When you have the abilities to be happy regardless of how others treat you, you will be surprised to find how your positive attitude changes the way others treat you.

Best of luck in your marriage. All marriages have problems here and there, the key is to communicate effectively, and lower your expectation of your spouse on things that you have differing opinions on.

Z