Follow-up to "Combining Assets"

[missy]

Alli,
It is impossible for people to tell you that your marriage is or is not right for you. On the outside looking in it is very easy to judge and give advice however it is only you and your husband who know if your marriage is worth working for and saving and making a healthy relationship for the two of you.

I do want to share something though that while not the same as what you are dealing with at all is an example of how you can teach your dh what you need in your relationship.

When my dh and I first started dating he was used to very independent women -not saying I am not independent just saying I was different from the other women he had been dating in that I needed more chivalrous behavior from my boyfriends. I lived in Park Slope Brooklyn and my dh (boyfriend at the time) lived in Manhattan and for one date early in our relationship he picked me up after work and we went to the Javitz Auto Show.

After the show he was planning on heading to the Jersey shore that night as I had to work the next day (Saturday) and then he was going to pick me up from work Saturday afternoon and we were going to spend the rest of the weekend together. So he put me in a cab and gave me money for the ride. I was upset and surprised that he wasn't going to drive me home and then head to the shore. Now I am sure many of you will wholeheartedly disagree with my expectation that a man should see his date home first. That's fine but that is not the issue up for debate now. We all expect different things from our mates and it is neither right or wrong as it is specific to the couple. Anyway, as it was early in our relationship he did not yet understand how strongly I felt about this issue and didn't realize how upset I was until the next afternoon when he picked me up from work and during that weekend I explained how I felt and how important it was to me that he see me home even if he was not going to stay the night and even though we did not live close to each other. While he did not share that same feeling he stepped up to the plate since it was important to me and from then on he took me home after every date. Even if it was not convenient for him.

My point is that we are all different with different expectations and perspectives. And it is not so much that they are right or wrong but that if something is important for you it should be important for your dh. When my dh and I disagree about issues we always look at who is this issue most important to and that is how we decide what to do. There is no way you can compromise on everything in a relationship. On some issues you are going to have to get your way and on other issues your dh is going to have to get his way. The question comes down to who feels more strongly regarding that particular issue. Not everything is so simple of course but just remember that you have to show (as well as tell) your dh what is so important to you that you just cannot compromise on.

For me, the most important thing is that my dh puts me first above all else and I do the same for him. I think that one must want to do that in their relationship for it to be a happy and successful relationship. You must love your spouse so much that he or she comes first and vice versa. There really is no compromise on that. If one partner does it but the other does not it will be a recipe for failure. And you have to sometimes teach your partner what you need in your relationship. It takes time but it is worth it.

Big hugs and I wish all the happiness and love in the world for you because you deserve nothing less.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Alli I wrote a lot of stuff in your other thread and I still think the comment apply.

Here I just want to offer you hugs, and add a couple comments.

The Gottman books and videos are great, I show them in my classes on close relationships (I teach psych of close relationships at university) and I highly recommend them. He is a well respected social/clinical psychologist with sound methods behind his research. Most books on relationships are NOT based on sound research and so tread lightly in putting much stock in them.

Also, your comment that you hope if you love him enough then he will change and allow you inside for true interdependence (paraphrase here), well that is a red flag and worrisome to me for a couple of reasons. First, it makes me wonder if notion of codependence might ring true for you (google will pop up lots about the notion, which comes from addiction circles but can explain a lot of processes within relationships). You sound like you pay a lot of attention to his needs and emotions and feelings in your thoughts and actions. Does he pay the same care and attention to you? Are YOUR needs being met?

And second, you cannot change another person, you can only draw them towards change. It is true that being with a warm and loving and responsive partner can increase one's self-esteem over time, indeed it is one of the only ways that self-esteem can truly improve. But, and this is a big but, it only works when the warm and loving and responsive partner has higher self-esteem themself! A confident and open and trusting person can help draw an insecure person up into a state of greater security through their confident, open, warm, and honest behaviour. But an insecure person cannot push and hope and urge another insecure person up into security and trust. Why not? Because someone who is feeling insecure will not respond to their partner with the type of behaviours that, over time, will draw that person up into greater security. A person who is feeling insecure will be too sensitive to rejection, to worried about the love they receive to truly create an environment where someone who is generally insecure and mistrustful -- as your husband is -- can truly grow.

Just as an example, a secure person would *never* tolerate the types of behaviours you are tolerating from your husband. Never in a million years. Why? Because a secure person would know she is worth more care, worth more attention, and would demand and expect the correct treatment from her partner. You see? By demanding and expecting the man she is with to treat her with the respect she deserves, the secure woman motivates him to be a better man and through such upright behaviour, to gain respect and self-efficacy, and to learn to trust and respect his woman because she is honest enough with him to demand what she deserves. And a man who truly wants a close relationship with his woman will grow and change to meet her expectations of respectful and proper treatment. And then he will become more secure, because a woman he respects and adores -- first and foremost is always respect and adoration -- well SHE loves him! And if she loves him, then he must be a pretty good catch. You see? It all starts with respecting yourself and demanding a certain standard of behaviour from your relationship partner. From there, all good things in relationships flow.

But that same man will NOT grow in confidence and self-respect and, ultimately, trust when he is with a woman who tolerates, and indeed caters to his bad and negligent behaviour. Why not? Because at his core, if he is a man of any feeling at all, he known what he is doing is shameful in a relationship. And because if he is insecure, he will not respect someone who caters and panders to him. And if he feels these two things, how can he ever change? The environment simply does not demand it.

 

[decodelighted]

I can't bear reading this whole thread. (After the ones that have come before.) But from a quick breeze through my first thought is .... folks who are in similar situations & are deciding to stick it out will tell YOU to do the same. Folks who would never put up with such treatment will tell YOU not to either. Its human nature to want to believe that what we, ourselves are doing, is what's best for everyone else too.

Which is why an objective voice would be so valuable. A trained professional social worker/therapist type comes to mind. Even if your DH refused to go ... it would help YOU immensely. (And, YES, I've been there -- done that ... which is why I think its best for everyone else too. IRONY!)

 

[iheartscience]

Alli I wrote a lot of stuff in your other thread and I still think the comment apply.

Here I just want to offer you hugs, and add a couple comments.

The Gottman books and videos are great, I show them in my classes on close relationships (I teach psych of close relationships at university) and I highly recommend them. He is a well respected social/clinical psychologist with sound methods behind his research. Most books on relationships are NOT based on sound research and so tread lightly in putting much stock in them.

Also, your comment that you hope if you love him enough then he will change and allow you inside for true interdependence (paraphrase here), well that is a red flag and worrisome to me for a couple of reasons. First, it makes me wonder if notion of codependence might ring true for you (google will pop up lots about the notion, which comes from addiction circles but can explain a lot of processes within relationships). You sound like you pay a lot of attention to his needs and emotions and feelings in your thoughts and actions. Does he pay the same care and attention to you? Are YOUR needs being met?

And second, you cannot change another person, you can only draw them towards change. It is true that being with a warm and loving and responsive partner can increase one's self-esteem over time, indeed it is one of the only ways that self-esteem can truly improve. But, and this is a big but, it only works when the warm and loving and responsive partner has higher self-esteem themself! A confident and open and trusting person can help draw an insecure person up into a state of greater security through their confident, open, warm, and honest behaviour. But an insecure person cannot push and hope and urge another insecure person up into security and trust. Why not? Because someone who is feeling insecure will not respond to their partner with the type of behaviours that, over time, will draw that person up into greater security. A person who is feeling insecure will be too sensitive to rejection, to worried about the love they receive to truly create an environment where someone who is generally insecure and mistrustful -- as your husband is -- can truly grow.

Just as an example, a secure person would *never* tolerate the types of behaviours you are tolerating from your husband. Never in a million years. Why? Because a secure person would know she is worth more care, worth more attention, and would demand and expect the correct treatment from her partner. You see? By demanding and expecting the man she is with to treat her with the respect she deserves, the secure woman motivates him to be a better man and through such upright behaviour, to gain respect and self-efficacy, and to learn to trust and respect his woman because she is honest enough with him to demand what she deserves. And a man who truly wants a close relationship with his woman will grow and change to meet her expectations of respectful and proper treatment. And then he will become more secure, because a woman he respects and adores -- first and foremost is always respect and adoration -- well SHE loves him! And if she loves him, then he must be a pretty good catch. You see? It all starts with respecting yourself and demanding a certain standard of behaviour from your relationship partner. From there, all good things in relationships flow.

But that same man will NOT grow in confidence and self-respect and, ultimately, trust when he is with a woman who tolerates, and indeed caters to his bad and negligent behaviour. Why not? Because at his core, if he is a man of any feeling at all, he known what he is doing is shameful in a relationship. And because if he is insecure, he will not respect someone who caters and panders to him. And if he feels these two things, how can he ever change? The environment simply does not demand it.

Fantastic post, dreamer. It's so counter to what most people believe but it's so true.

Alli-the story about your husband's pathetic offer to help you when you were unemployed and struggling blows my mind. I know there's more to your relationship than what you've posted here, but that alone paints a pretty rough picture of your husband. Add in the fact that he refuses to go to therapy, and I just don't see how this situation is going to change. You just have to decide if you'll accept his behavior. I wouldn't, but I'm not you. I do hope you'll get therapy for yourself if he won't go. Good luck to you-I hope you find happiness no matter what happens.

 

[Indylady]

Alli, I just want to offer my hugs! You have a lot of courage to post your "problems" (I hope you don't mind that I used that word) on PS, and have had a lot of grace as you receive responses. In all honesty, I cringe to think of the responses I might receive if I asked advice for my biggest problems on PS. Sending you lots of happy dust as you think this all over.

 

[yssie]

Dreamer - fantastic post! Your words ring true, though they might make your readers wince.
Thank you for sharing those insights - what seems so obvious when written out like that - well, isn't!

 

[missy]

That is a perceptive post Dreamer. Every bit of it true.

By demanding and expecting the man she is with to treat her with the respect she deserves, the secure woman motivates him to be a better man and through such upright behaviour, to gain respect and self-efficacy, and to learn to trust and respect his woman because she is honest enough with him to demand what she deserves
It all starts with respecting yourself and demanding a certain standard of behaviour from your relationship partner. From there, all good things in relationships flow.

 

[rosetta]

Great post dreamer.

Alli, I was in a relationship once, which in retrospect, was not respectful to me. There was no verbal or physical abuse, but he put his emotional needs before mine and considered mine less and less. To this day, I think he still doesn't get why I left him. He was a good guy. It was hard to leave, but I have no regrets I did. I am treated much better by my FI and that's partly because I believe I'm worth loving well.

Whatever you decide, we are here.

 

[kama_s]

It all starts with respecting yourself and demanding a certain standard of behaviour from your relationship partner. From there, all good things in relationships flow.

Fantastic post, dreamer. It's so counter to what most people believe but it's so true.

Alli-the story about your husband's pathetic offer to help you when you were unemployed and struggling blows my mind. I know there's more to your relationship than what you've posted here, but that alone paints a pretty rough picture of your husband. Add in the fact that he refuses to go to therapy, and I just don't see how this situation is going to change. You just have to decide if you'll accept his behavior. I wouldn't, but I'm not you. I do hope you'll get therapy for yourself if he won't go. Good luck to you-I hope you find happiness no matter what happens.

Dreamer, as usual, you're spot-on. I highlighted the sentence in your post that I found to be most relevant, and very powerful.

Thing2, I agree. I don't even know what to say about his bahviour when she was unemployed. I could not be with a man who doesn't care enough about me to support me through the rough times. What's going to happen, Alli, if you're older and you're sick. Is he going to pick up and leave because he'd rather not take on YOUR medical bills? Can you live with that uncertainity?

I am strongly urging you to seek a therapist - just for yourself - so you can understand why you're willing to accept this behaviour. I know money is tight right now, but sometimes self-preservation takes a priority.

 

[perry]

Alli:

Just wanted to post - that I hoping you are having a great day. I know the situation is bugging you - and its hard to read all of this. A while ago I posted a couple threads that included a lot of discussion (and some sharp words). When I reread them months later they made more sense (and It has changed how I approach some things).

You can't solve issues quickly - it will take some time. Key is that you are trying to solve them.

Another lesson I've learned is that at times you need a small break. So I encourage you to take a day (or so) off. Go visit the park, a museum, read a recreational book, etc. Find something fun to do - and do it.

We are all pulling for you.

Have a great day,

Perry

 

[movie zombie]

Alli: Just wanted to post - that I hoping you are having a great day. I know the situation is bugging you - and its hard to read all of this. A while ago I posted a couple threads that included a lot of discussion (and some sharp words). When I reread them months later they made more sense (and It has changed how I approach some things). You can't solve issues quickly - it will take some time. Key is that you are trying to solve them. Another lesson I've learned is that at times you need a small break. So I encourage you to take a day (or so) off. Go visit the park, a museum, read a recreational book, etc. Find something fun to do - and do it. We are all pulling for you. Have a great day, Perry

ditto!

MoZo

ps regardless which side of the fence any of us falls on regarding all this, i think Perry has hit the nail on the head with this post.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Just wanted to clarify something: To be firm that you will not accept poor treatment from your partner does *not* mean you are a cold or aloof partner as well. Someone who is secure will be responsive and loving and empathetic when their partner needs support, or love, or care. They will also reflect back to their partner a positive image of self, and will see the best in their partner. But they will not tolerate and cater to bad behaviour, selfish or destructive behaviour, or uncaring behaviour. This latter characteristic was the point I was trying to highlight.

I also want to point out that although some people are generally more secure than others, we all feel insecure sometimes and secure at other times, and the relationship partner we are with can really determine how we are feeling, by how they treat us. I think a big red flag in a relationship is when you are with a partner who makes you doubt yourself or feel inferiour or insecure, which usually happens because they do not treat you like a worthy and desirable partner. I suspect that the way the OPs husband treats her undermines her own worth. It would undermine mine. And that is not a good thing. People who are themselves insecure will sometimes try to undermine their partners as a means of "bringing them down to their level" and increasing their feelings of power. All of this is to point out, once again, how destructive it can be to be in a relationship where you tolerate your partner's bad behaviour.

My thoughts on this issue are based in part on my research, but also on my own relationship experiences. I had a long-term live-in relationship that, looking back, I know was a case of me feeling inferiour and feeling like if I love him enough, he will change. And I catered to his needs and accepted a LOT of bad behaviour -- not abuse, but more subtle forms of emotional control and lack of regard and respect, like the OP describes. I only gained clarity about that relationship and myself when I was out of it. With my husband, I have witnessed the opposite -- I feel secure with him and I know I have helped him to grow, and he has helped me to grow too. The contrast between those relationships is astounding. But it is hard to see how bad an unsupportive and potentially undermining relationship really is when you are in it. When you are in it, all you can think is "Why doesn't he love me like I love him?" If you find you are asking yourself that question, something is off.

 

[Vix]

Alli, I know some other posters have talked about trust issues that appear to exist on both sides, and I think it's really important to consider that -- both individually and, hopefully, together.

I do think the comments about having at least one very secure partner -- and ideally two, of course -- are helpful. One thing that seems to be mentioned in a rather throwaway manner but seems SUPER-important is the fact that you were in a very corrosive work environment, then unemployed for 6+ months. IME both of these are incredibly destabilizing experiences, tailor-made to undermine strength. So maybe you weren't calling out certain things that needed to be addressed in your marriage and now is the time to remedy that. As you're exploring.

Meanwhile, while you had that going on, your husband was carrying the full financial load during a period when the news couldn't (and can't!) shut up about the dire economic climate. As if that weren't plenty for most, you were both worrying to varying degrees about your significant educational debt (I believe you said 100K+?). A scary number even when times are good....

Now: perhaps he was secure in his job, but perhaps he was obsessing about a layoff taking you all to a 0-earner family and thus unable to give you what you needed to feel loved and secure. Does that mean he'll never be able to give you that? I don't know. But yes, it's sad that you felt alone while you were trying hard to get work both for your own self-esteem and to help share the financial burden.

Maybe it's just me and my dysfunctional always-planned-to-be-2-earner-couple friends/family, but those of us who have lived through any to all of the above don't seem to do a great job being "team-oriented" 100% of the time. The support and optimism waxes and wanes significantly depending on how much panic, depression, anger, crushed hope, and stagnation is present at any given time.

Now that things are calmer, of course take a look at your dynamics. Maybe you'll find (apart or together) things are hopeless or take more effort than you (singular/plural) want to give. Or maybe, if couples counseling is on the table after all, you'll find ways to really communicate and turn towards each other when high-stress times occur. Again, best of luck.

 

[zhuzhu]

Alli,

Following up on Vix's insightful comment, I can't help but wonder if on some level, your husband's un-supportive behavior is a result of his unexpressed resentment over your choice of career path? Maybe he is deeply stressed about your student debt, and secretly hoping that you will make a compromise on your ideology and consider taking a better pay job? Maybe he is just not able to directly express what EXACTLY he prefers you do, and the resentment builds and builds, resulting his poor treatment of you?

I am not making excuses for him, but I do think it is worth the effort to understand where his "absent mindedness" about you comes from. It is partly a result of his past experience, but his CURRENT experience in your career choice and financial strategies may also be a factor that makes him act so inappropriately. If that is the case, are you willing to consider his preference?

These are just examples of the complex factors that contribute to all sorts of relationship problems. I really think consulting will do you and your marriage a lot of good.

Hang in there.

Hugs,
Zhu

 

[MAC-W]

He is, in fact, INCREDIBLY responsible at work--no doubt about it. He is totally capable and successful and I am always impressed with how efficient he is...at work. Now, the fact that I know how good he is at work...well...that makes the fact that he is always (ALWAYS)..."absent-minded" when it comes to what little (truly, little) I ask him to do seems even more insulting and personal. He is capable of doing better--he just doesn't think what I ask him to do is important enough in general to make it a priority.

Hi Alli,
I’ve been reading this thread with interest but haven’t responded because basically you’ve been getting such great advice, I would just end up saying “ditto”, “what she said” etc

However when I read what I’ve quoted above, I just had to jump in cos you are describing me EXACTLY and it sometimes drives hubby nuts. I think I might be the female version of your hubby and you’re the female version of my hubby.

When we first got together I moved into his apartment and for the next 2 years it was all “my apartment” this, “my apartment” that, “My car” this. “My whatever” that. It wasn’t so much 50-50 in his mind as this is 100% mine and that’s yours.

I am extremely detail focused at work and can put my hands on any info or document instantly, and always meet all deadlines (in fact I pretty much bring everything in ahead of time). The one phrase that I always get on my performance assessments is “efficient”, along with “focussed”, “exceeds expectations” and “very committed”.

Hubby and I worked for the same company 10 years ago and he was shocked by how organised I am at work, cos at home I am (or was) a complete mess.

At home I forget to do things, I let things that I know are important to hubby slip for a few days (sometimes weeks) and I certainly don’t always do things in what he considers to be a timely manner. If anyone were to see me at home there’s no way they would use words like “efficient”, about me.

If hubby asks me where such and such document is, I’m like “I don’t know, maybe in one of the drawers in the hallway or it could be in xxxx or maybe yyyy”. It frustrates the hell out of him cos he knows if it was a work document I would be like “It’s the 5th document down on the 2nd left pile on the third shelf of the right hand cupboard”.

Part of the reason I’m the way I am at home, is becasue I do have to be SOOOOOO focused at work that when I get home I just totally switch off and relax. Also hubby is quite anal about stuff and generally jumps in after like about 10 mins and does whatever it was he was asking me to do..........then gives me a hard time cos I didn’t do it!!!!

We’ve had quite a few ‘discussions’ about this, cos it frustrates me when he has a go at me. I would have done it ........................... (eventually) ........................... (probably) ........................... (if I remembered) ........................... LOL, so why does he need to “nag”?

It’s not that I think that what he’s asking is unimportant to me, far from it, I know if he is asking, it must be important to him, its just that I’ve been working 10-11 hours a day (at the beginning of our relationship that would have been 14-16 hours a day, so I’ve definitely improved), and I’m on my downtime and am relaxing. I truly do mean to do what hubby is asking but before you know it, it’s the next day and I'm back at work with all the problems that that involves and then it's the next day and the next day ........ and oops, I still haven’t done it. But I will ........................... (eventually) ........................... (probably) ........................... (if I remember ........................... cos so many other things have been asked in the meantime).

Also my job pays over 3x what hubby’s job pays, so I do feel I need to focus on my job to keep us in the lifestyle we have become accustomed to.

I have gotten much much better over the years and especially since he started working away from home more. (I cant rely on hubby remembering for me or doing it for me anymore cos he's not here for more than half the time, so I’ve had to get even better at home).

LOL we’ve even gotten to the stage now, where there’s been a couple of times I’ve been ‘nagging’ him for things he hasn’t done

Anyway long ramble, but just wanted to give you a female ‘work focussed’/‘home not focussed’ perspective, and say there is hope that your hubby can improve his focus at home (if I can, anyone can) and I do understand his perspective. Home should be the one place that you can relax and de-focus (just maybe not as much as I used to do and he currently is doing)

Hugs


PS, the fact I used to be like this and still am to some extent, doesn’t mean I don’t love my husband. I do. I love him desperately. Which is why I made the effort to change because I know it was important to him that I was as focussed at home as I am at work (as I should, after all hubby is so much more important than work) But its been a slow process (11 years and counting), I keep getting sucked back into the work focus attitude and have to consciously redirect.

PPS, Have you ever seen the urgent vs important box diagram? We use it at work a lot and hubby finally got through to me by likening my work to the ringing telephone and our relationship to the really crucial report that is due in 2 weeks time. Maybe something similar would work for your hubby?

 

[MAC-W]

you cannot change another person, you can only draw them towards change.

That is so true

Just as an example, a secure person would *never* tolerate the types of behaviours you are tolerating from your husband. Never in a million years. Why? Because a secure person would know she is worth more care, worth more attention, and would demand and expect the correct treatment from her partner. You see? By demanding and expecting the man she is with to treat her with the respect she deserves, the secure woman motivates him to be a better man and through such upright behaviour, to gain respect and self-efficacy, and to learn to trust and respect his woman because she is honest enough with him to demand what she deserves. And a man who truly wants a close relationship with his woman will grow and change to meet her expectations of respectful and proper treatment. And then he will become more secure, because a woman he respects and adores -- first and foremost is always respect and adoration -- well SHE loves him! And if she loves him, then he must be a pretty good catch. You see? It all starts with respecting yourself and demanding a certain standard of behaviour from your relationship partner. From there, all good things in relationships flow.

But that same man will NOT grow in confidence and self-respect and, ultimately, trust when he is with a woman who tolerates, and indeed caters to his bad and negligent behaviour. Why not? Because at his core, if he is a man of any feeling at all, he known what he is doing is shameful in a relationship. And because if he is insecure, he will not respect someone who caters and panders to him. And if he feels these two things, how can he ever change? The environment simply does not demand it.

Not quite true. My hubby is probably the most secure person I've ever met and he has put up a lot from me over the years, but he has never 'demanded' anything from me. Asked? yes definately, but 'demanded', never.


He is wise enough to know that praise and gentle encouragement will have much better results with me than demands, threats and ultimatums.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Not quite true. My hubby is probably the most secure person I've ever met and he has put up a lot from me over the years, but he has never 'demanded' anything from me. Asked? yes definately, but 'demanded', never.


He is wise enough to know that praise and gentle encouragement will have much better results with me than demands, threats and ultimatums.

Then we agree . You are thinking of the term "demand" in a negative way, but it can have a more broad definition. I am using the term "demand" to mean having standards for how others must treat you and expecting them to be followed, and if they are not then conveying your unwillingness to tolerate said behaviour in a clear and forthright manner. Your husband is making demands of you with his gentle encouragement -- he is letting you know what he expects from you as a relationship partner, and what is ok and what is not ok for you to do in your relationship with him. He is just doing is tactfully. So by "demand" I do not mean using threats and ultimatums, I mean conveying standards of behaviour to ones partner. Whether we like it or not, we all make demands on our partners of some sort, and they make demands on us, sometimes spoken and sometimes implicit, and some people are just better at conveying them than others.