Fully bonded diamond:

[mthom]

A lot to respond to today

First off, my apology on the "trash talking" comment. Lorelei, it certainly wasn''t meant to your posts. But a more general comment from my searches on Fred and DCI here (and at another forum). I actually really like this forum and am glad I stumbled across it. I guess the most "trash" was from Garry and Dancing Fire ... and I actually like Garry

... at least, Garry, your willing to give me a good honest wager (and tap into my betting instincts).

Believe it or not, I actually asked my wife, but there''s no way she''s parting with it more my betting pleasure.

Perry - you over estimate my intelligence on diamonds

. I''m by no means an expert, but just a very curious customer that actually finds this stuff interesting. I probably overestimate my perceptive ability too ... and I think you are right, I notice most of the difference in sparkle with rings on the finger. In the store, especially the good ones, it''s harder to tell unless you hold it in other lighting.

Bill - I did read the book back in 2001 and again in 2003 (but I actually met with Fred on a recommendation before I read the book the first time) ... and you guys caused me to get it back out last night (what can I say, I was bored while ripping CD''s to create my digital music library). But, Perry, as far as fish-eye (I had no idea what it was when Garry posted his comment), but I looked it up here and found some good information, and could see what I think Garry was seeing ... the table reflection made it look like you could see a fish eye effect from the picture. That''s just my guess though ... maybe Garry can tell me if that is what he sees.

Call me a geek, but I really did just stumble upon all of this the other day. We just got our rings back (a new setting for the diamond that I mentioned in my first post) ... and my wife had a few questions which prompted me to google search. I then stumbled upon a different forum and did a search for Fred. And being a customer, after reading some of the things said, I searched more. I posted here, because versus the other forum (diamondtalk) because, frankly, I felt like this forum was a little more civil and knowledgeable.

Neil - that''s good to know that others offer similar deals, and I too wonder why more dealers don''t offer them. My only guess is that there is still a risk to the dealers (especially the online dealer) who could get scammed by the customer (switching a stone and saying they never received what they paid for). I admire all of you dealers for taking that risk on an expensive item that harder for the consumer to easily differentiate. As far as I can tell on the appreciation part of the warranty, Fred will give you your original purchase price from him plus a percentage appreciation (still some question as to what index for appreciation is used, but my guess is that it would be a non-controversial choice). By the way, I don''t doubt that Fred created the "bonded diamond" term, or at least proliferated it, so I don''t know if others who offer similar warraties call it "bonded". That''s where I think he''s done a good job marketing his warranty (and puts pressure on others to offer the same as more consumers read his book).

Bill - I do have the ring insured as well ... FC''s policy doesn''t protect me from loss or theft. I haven''t tried the search engine on pricescope ... but now I will

So, does anyone disagree that this bonding policy is a good policy for the consumer. It was a big selling point for me. And I think that''s a big part of Fred''s marketing ... make people aware of the pitfalls, then make them feel safe with a warranty.

Now ... if I dare try ... if the bonding issue is comfortable with everyone ... should I say it ... warping

I have no idea about warping (other than the crown and pavillion angles being slightly different at each facet), which I have to think exist in every cut. But I have no idea on how to spot one other than a full analysis at several points on the diamond. Garry - I''d seen a comment on this from you ... does Fred have some funky math on how to spot it otherwise?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 1/31/2006 1:44:31 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 1/31/2006 4:43:59 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 1/31/2006 3:57:02 AM
Author: mthom
You''d also think that if Fred or DCI were shady, someone ... at least one person ... would have filed a Better Business Bureau complaint in the last 3 YEARS. No complaints filed. Check it for yourself.

Bottom line is, it''s hard to swallow the trash talking here, when it''s got nothing to back it up.

Thank you for posting the document but wait a minute.... no one is talking trash here, I asked a simple question with no hidden meaning as I wanted to learn about this cash refund offer - if it is true then it is indeed a good deal as no other vendors I know of offer this. Please don''t accuse me or my fellow posters, many of whom are experts and professionals in the diamond industry of '' talking trash'' when you have only been here for a couple of days, opinions here should be expressed respectfully please.

hey Lorelei

i always wanted to ask you...do you talk trash with a British accent?

i love girls that talk with a British accent

so cute.

Yes I do talk trash with a British accent DF and a whole lot else besides

No worries mythom

Garry and DF are actually great guys who are very knowledgeable and Garry as you know is a professional who is indeed a cut quality crusader, people like them help to make this such a good place to learn and research.

 

[mthom]

OK - Dancing Fire ... I''ll throw you into my "like" category too for doubling down on the bet .... man, I wish my wife would let me do it.

A couple of other things that I forgot ... as far as the one bust per customer ... Fred claims that there really isn''t a risk for a bust at all unless the rock has been baked ... but that''s a good question ... how would you even identify the diamond after a bust ... maybe it''s a way to protect himself to offer it only once if someone keeps bringing him pieces, saying "this was my diamond".

Perry - on Fred already having the cert ... he''s a wholesaler / cutter so he''d have to do the providing ... that''s my guess. I''m sure he does a bit of sourcing on both ends of the cutting. But honestly, you guys would know more about the front end supply ... I''m interested though.

 

[mthom]

So has anyone done an analysis on anyone''s stones from Fred? And if so, how''d they come out? And if bad, how was their customer experience after that point.

I''m just trying to figure out, is the issue with quality, or business practices, or just plain popularity.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 1/31/2006 2:23:06 PM
Author: mthom
OK - Dancing Fire ... I''ll throw you into my ''like'' category too for doubling down on the bet .... man, I wish my wife would let me do it.

A couple of other things that I forgot ... as far as the one bust per customer ... Fred claims that there really isn''t a risk for a bust at all unless the rock has been baked ... but that''s a good question ... how would you even identify the diamond after a bust ... maybe it''s a way to protect himself to offer it only once if someone keeps bringing him pieces, saying ''this was my diamond''.

Perry - on Fred already having the cert ... he''s a wholesaler / cutter so he''d have to do the providing ... that''s my guess. I''m sure he does a bit of sourcing on both ends of the cutting. But honestly, you guys would know more about the front end supply ... I''m interested though.

mythom, that was what I was curious about. I have heard Fred say that it is only "baked'' diamonds that will chip or break but there are plenty of stories here with heartbroken owners of chipped or broken diamonds which weren''t treated

Therefore I was wondering as an example if a person has a bonded diamond which was obviously chipped along the girdle, brought it back to DCI and asked for a replacement as it states you can have, and chipped or damaged the replacement, would the breakage guarantee apply to the new diamond or would that be it - no more replacements? I know it is unlikely to happen twice but it could if you were really unlucky. I wonder too if the same thing happened with jewellery insurance, I suppose the premiums would skyrocket.

 

[mthom]

Lorilei ... my bonding document doesn''t have the once per customer limitation, but in his book he describes the nicks / chips to be more than once, but a complete bust of a diamond is only once per customer.

And actually, my mistake that he doesn''t say the only way it would bust is from treatment, but that treatment caused brittleness and increases the chances of busting ...

I think if mine busted, I''d ask for something in writing to be covered for another bust (because I''d also be suspicious otherwise). I wonder if he''s ever had someone make a claim for a bust ... maybe that''s a question for his site ...

You''re probably right on the insurance premiums too.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Mthom,

A warped diamond is a term, introduced by FC, in order to discredit any diamond, graded by GIA, AGS, and I think also IGI and EGL.

His assessment is that ''crown height + pavilion depth + girdle thickness = total depth''

This, at first sight, makes total sense. However, there are two ways to report the girdle thickness. One is by reporting the thickness on the thickest point (like HRD does), the other is by reporting the thickness at the thinnes point (the valleys), like GIA does and AGS used to do. I should add that AGS is now reporting both the thickest and the thinnest point.

However, in the way that GIA reports the girdle thickness, the above maths do not match. While nothing is wrong with this diamond, it is warped according to the definition of FC. With most of the diamonds sold in the US, carrying grading reports from American labs, the result is that most of these are warped according to FC.

Live long,

 

[denverappraiser]

I’m not sure what he means by a ‘baked’ diamond but I agree that it’s extremely unusual for a stone to break into multiple pieces. I can’t recall EVER seeing this happen with anything above an I-3 clarity. Guaranteeing against that doesn’t really impress me very much but I suppose it''s a nice gesture. The real issue is nicks and chips along the girdle caused by ordinary, or even extraordinary wear. A guarantee against that has some value, especially if it results in a refund at his current retail prices. Is this program available for princess cuts?

For a legal contract that document is remarkably imprecise. I keep coming back to the market value concept. Cost plus inflation per some index doesn’t make any sense as a definition for market value because it’s not associated with any market. It’s hard for me to imagine that he hasn’t bothered to define a term that''s so important to his whole program, which leaves me with the impression that he must have done this and simply prefers to keep it a secret. This doesn’t strike me as a good sign but perhaps there’s another explanation.

Tracking individual stones isn’t all that difficult. www.gemprint.com has been doing it for years and a plotting diagram coupled with a Sarin report can come darn close.

It would be a terrible breach of client confidentiality for me, or any other of the appraisers, to discuss stones that we’ve examined on behalf of our other clients and most of the competitive dealers won’t have had the opportunity to see one for obvious reasons. Unfortunately, this doesn’t leave many opportunities to discuss a specific stone here. If you would care to send yours and give me permission to discuss it in the forum….

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[mthom]

I see. You''re right, the math should make sense, but it seems like girdle screws it up. Maybe a better definition would be the crown height + pavillion depth should equal total depth within the girdle range (if that makes any sense). Otherwise you don''t know what''s making inequality (girdle or angles). From FC''s book the angles being off are what make it warped, not girdle variance. His definition of adding all three would make any stone fail (except the abosolute perfect one).

He should clarify his definition and build in some tolerances to the warping definition, that way it would be more valuable to the consumer.

You''d really have to do analysis are multiple spots to get an idea of how warped a diamond is ... but I guess it''s still true if it is "too" warped, the brilliance will suffer.

OK, at the HUGE risk of exposing my real geekness ... I used a little trig on my diamond angles ... if my girdle is 1.5 - 2.0% (is that a normal range), then my total depth would be 59 - 59.5%. So, I guess I''d have to have a very think girdle to overshoot the 61% depth target max (according to FC''s max). And before you say anything Garry

that''s assuming the stated angles are correct (and no severe warping).

I could make this into a nice hobby

 

[mthom]

Neil - by baked I think he meant heat treated (to improve color).

Your right about the document not being extremely sophisticated in the legal sense ... my guess is that he always planned on honoring it so it wouldn''t matter much. But I bet with his new company (fullybondeddiamonds), it''s probably a more sophisticated program.

Isn''t there any general gem indexes out there (like they have for precious metals). I know appreciation varies depending on the quality of the specific stone. My guess is that he uses an average or a general index if there is one ... which if his stones are great quality, would benefit him on the transaction anyway.

I think if I ever suspected a bad stone though, I''d trade-up and during the selection of a stone, require more lab reports. But now it''s mostly because I''m just plain curious on this stuff. It''s the continual pursuit of perfection in the cut

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 1/31/2006 2:26:33 PM
Author: mthom
So has anyone done an analysis on anyone''s stones from Fred? And if so, how''d they come out? And if bad, how was their customer experience after that point.

I''m just trying to figure out, is the issue with quality, or business practices, or just plain popularity.

In the rare instances when consumers were given any hard data and we have seen it here, the stones have been shocking. That is why I can take the bet.

Also Paul Fred''s warping only works with US labs because they list the girdle at the thinnest place (valley = about -1.7% thinner than at the mains). But European labs always listed the mains thickness. GIA now list the girdle thickness at the thickest part of the mains on the trade summary card - So poor old Fred will loose his main selling tool.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 1/31/2006 2:22:57 PM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 1/31/2006 1:44:31 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 1/31/2006 4:43:59 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 1/31/2006 3:57:02 AM
Author: mthom
You''d also think that if Fred or DCI were shady, someone ... at least one person ... would have filed a Better Business Bureau complaint in the last 3 YEARS. No complaints filed. Check it for yourself.

Bottom line is, it''s hard to swallow the trash talking here, when it''s got nothing to back it up.

Thank you for posting the document but wait a minute.... no one is talking trash here, I asked a simple question with no hidden meaning as I wanted to learn about this cash refund offer - if it is true then it is indeed a good deal as no other vendors I know of offer this. Please don''t accuse me or my fellow posters, many of whom are experts and professionals in the diamond industry of '' talking trash'' when you have only been here for a couple of days, opinions here should be expressed respectfully please.

hey Lorelei

i always wanted to ask you...do you talk trash with a British accent?

i love girls that talk with a British accent

so cute.

Yes I do talk trash with a British accent DF and a whole lot else besides

Lorelei will you marry me?

 

[denverappraiser]

Baked means HPHT?

Geez. I suppose I agree that unbaked a good thing but since HPHT is a treatment that requires specific disclosure for all stones sold in the United States and every other major market since the invention of the technique, guaranteeing that the stones aren''t baked puts him right in with everyone else who is selling diamonds in compliance with the law. That''s nice, but I’m not impressed.

Sorry to keep dogging this but the appreciation thing still sounds like the most interesting part of the program. I’m curious how the document and the text on the websites don’t seem to support your description. Basically, your expectation for the trade up program is that if you buy a new stone, he will establish a ‘market value’ for your old stone and that you’ll get a credit towards your new purchase of this amount. The market value will presumably be his selling price to the next customer who buys it and, if your new stone costs less than the old one is going to be sold for, you’ll get a cash refund for 100% of the difference. If the stone has had any damage while in your possession, he will credit you for the amount that he would have sold the stone for in undamaged condition. Is this all correct?

No, there isn’t an index for diamonds the way there is for gold, oil or similar commodities. There are a few industry price guides and you can do some statistical analysis from databases like the Pricescope offering list at the top of the page but, unless he thinks all VS1-F’s of a particular size are the same, the lists aren’t really applicable to the task at hand. He could also, I suppose, do some data analysis from his own records about what he has sold particular stones for over time.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 1/31/2006 7:17:09 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Sorry to keep dogging this but the appreciation thing still sounds like the most interesting part of the program. I’m curious how the document and the text on the websites don’t seem to support your description. Basically, your expectation for the trade up program is that if you buy a new stone, he will establish a ‘market value’ for your old stone and that you’ll get a credit towards your new purchase of this amount. The market value will presumably be his selling price to the next customer who buys it and, if your new stone costs less than the old one is going to be sold for, you’ll get a cash refund for 100% of the difference. If the stone has had any damage while in your possession, he will credit you for the amount that he would have sold the stone for in undamaged condition. Is this all correct?

No, there isn’t an index for diamonds the way there is for gold, oil or similar commodities. There are a few industry price guides and you can do some statistical analysis from databases like the Pricescope offering list at the top of the page but, unless he thinks all VS1-F’s of a particular size are the same, the lists aren’t really applicable to the task at hand. He could also, I suppose, do some data analysis from his own records about what he has sold particular stones for over time.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

There are indexes - www.idexonline.com - go to diamond prices - and Rapaport does an annual review each January - with data going back till late 1970''s.
Here is a snap of the 1/2 ct size that shows the impact of diamond lanning scanner technology and yeild improvements in creating an abundance of diamonds.
The other factor that would make Fred''s promise dodgy is that the retail prices have fallen further and faster because of gains in all levels of the idnustry - less intermediataries, lower margins and fewer hands - Etrade b2 B and the pressure from sites like this on retailers etc etc.

If anyone has seen the 100% Aussie movie The Castle - "tell him he''s dreamin".

BTW I speak decent Aussie and some ladies like that. Sadly I am happily married, but i am a dreadful flirt

 

[mthom]

Garry - I agree on the girdle variance throwing the whole calculation off. You''d basically be cutting out stones that may have the right angles and a great cut, unless you give some room for tolerance. His new calc must be recent, in my version of the book he only talks about knowing which angles are presented in the report for crown and pavillion (best, worst or avg) and trying to get multiple measurements.

Neil - I agree that the bust warranty shouldn''t be that special. He even mentions that "baked" diamonds are supposed to be disclosed ... but I''m sure some uneducated buyers could buy something like that if they don''t go to a reputable dealer. I guess it''s his way of saying, don''t worry about breakage ... I''m not selling you a a treated diamond to you.

The whole appreciation question is great - someone should post it on his site. I bet he uses the same appreciation calcs he uses in his updates to the book. That''s at least where I would go to make sure I at least got that amount appreciation. I read the trade down scenario like you ... you get 100% of the difference between the market value of the stones. I wonder if the new site has any more information on that. I can''t imagine many people trading down though.

Garry - so have customers of FC posted stats here that were shocking? Did they communicate their follow-up experience. The only instance I read was on another forum (and I saw two slightly different versions). Of course, both versions ended with "So I went to this other place and got a great deal ... Thanks!" It turns out that the place is associated with the forum. So I didn''t buy that one.

 

[mthom]

Thanks Garry ... I guess if the market doesn''t appreciate, you can only fall back on the 100% of original price. Which is basically the other part of the warranty, which is the "Crash" part of the warranty. So ultimately the most valuable parts of the warranty are lifetime cash back and lifetime chips and nicks. The others may just be fluff or restatements, at least in a flat or declining market.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 1/31/2006 7:47:01 PM
Author: mthom
Garry - so have customers of FC posted stats here that were shocking? Did they communicate their follow-up experience. The only instance I read was on another forum (and I saw two slightly different versions). Of course, both versions ended with ''So I went to this other place and got a great deal ... Thanks!'' It turns out that the place is associated with the forum. So I didn''t buy that one.

Mthom you would need to search all the old topics to find the actual stone data.
Never ever heard of anyone actually getting a refund - but if you do thenn please let us know how you go.
(maybe we could bet on that too? How about a bottle of relatively cheap Aussie Shiraz?)

 

[Capitol Bill]

mthom,
Thanks for all of your posts. To write a thorough analysis that explores FC''s sales strategy would almost take an entire book. But, regardless, the end result is that he convinced you to trust him. The question is: are you now willing to discover how good FC''s word is?

Garry and Dancing Fire have placed a compelling offer on the table and I''m willing to lay down my $100 alongside their money (so that''s already $300 total to you if your diamond is as FC represented it).

By the way, you mentioned in an earlier post that FC won his appeal on his felony conviction. Would you mind posting the source of this information? From what I''ve read, it appears he''s still on probation (through 200. If you click on the links to articles posted by glitterata earlier in this thread you''ll find the following from a March 20, 2003 article in the Houston Press:

He was convicted of felony theft in 1998 for a million-dollar investment scheme involving a large diamond. Harry Lawrence, the Harris County prosecutor who handled the case, says Cuellar unsuccessfully appealed his conviction all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court and is still serving a ten-year probation. (He also got 30 days in jail and was ordered to make restitution, Lawrence says.)
Dan Parsons, president of the local Better Business Bureau, says Cuellar is listed as "satisfactory" on the BBB''s Reliability List but has been the subject of complaints before and was, for a time, listed as "unsatisfactory."

I appreciate your candor and ongoing participation here.

Kind regards,
Bill

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 1/31/2006 9:07:39 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 1/31/2006 7:47:01 PM
Author: mthom
Garry - so have customers of FC posted stats here that were shocking? Did they communicate their follow-up experience. The only instance I read was on another forum (and I saw two slightly different versions). Of course, both versions ended with ''So I went to this other place and got a great deal ... Thanks!'' It turns out that the place is associated with the forum. So I didn''t buy that one.

Mthom you would need to search all the old topics to find the actual stone data.
Never ever heard of anyone actually getting a refund - but if you do thenn please let us know how you go.
(maybe we could bet on that too? How about a bottle of relatively cheap Aussie Shiraz?)

Garry
what is that?

is that stuff legal in the U.S.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 1/31/2006 10:03:01 PM
Author: Capitol Bill

mthom,
Thanks for all of your posts. To write a thorough analysis that explores FC''s sales strategy would almost take an entire book. But, regardless, the end result is that he convinced you to trust him. The question is: are you now willing to discover how good FC''s word is?

Garry and Dancing Fire have placed a compelling offer on the table and I''m willing to lay down my $100 alongside their money (so that''s already $300 total to you if your diamond is as FC represented it).

Bill

Bill
this pot might go up to $10k in a hurry.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 1/31/2006 11:47:13 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 1/31/2006 9:07:39 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

(maybe we could bet on that too? How about a bottle of relatively cheap Aussie Shiraz?)

Garry
what is that?

is that stuff legal in the U.S.

http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-20,GGLG:en&q=Australian+Shiraz
http://www.sallys-place.com/beverages/wine/vintnerschoice/australian_shiraz.htm

yum yum

 

[mthom]

Bill,

I checked out the link with the 2003 article ... I hadn''t seen it before. The one thing that confuses me ... what the heck does the case have in it that would be considered a Constitutional Law challenge that it could go to the Supreme Court? That sounds wierd.

Anyway, my info came from a post ... I''m still trying to find it again ... although my google search came up empty (except for an article where Billy Bob Thornton was buying his $1.26 M blue diamond from Fred)

Guys, I really wish my wife would let me send her rock in for an analysis, but she just got it back. And there''s no way she''ll let me send it off for my bet

I was also trying to do a search on posted situations where stats were confirmed on a DCI stone that weren''t up to par ... haven''t found one, except for three stories from the same guy, helped out by the same jeweler, that just also happened to post behind the story.

So, let me just recap ... what are the specific reasons for not liking FC ... 1) conviction for not returning a deposit on an investment deal he was brokered to do; 2) warping discussion; 3) steering people to him by scaring them from other dealers

There''s got to be some specific customer experiences to back this up, or (to me) it''s more "political" competition.

It''s not that I don''t agree with the 3 statements above. But it''s not clear to me that just because he''s steering his business to him, he''ll screw them over when they come in the door. And when I searched the BBB last night, it said he had 0 complaints for the last 12 and 36 months.

A warping questions (actually let''s call it angle variance) - is the contention that it simply doesn''t exist, that''s it''s not a big deal, or that FC''s way to spot it is not correct? My opinion is the third ... I''d have to see the angle''s themselves to be sure of it.

 

[mthom]

Here''s the quote I saw ... it was from another poster ... but it was from mid 2004, so who knows:

"I also noticed that there was a lot of critique levelled due to the fact that Fred Cuellar was jailed a few years back but at the same time there was no mentions that he was actually admonished on an appeal."

In reading other posts, it still just seems like most dealers don''t like that FC steers customers to a narrow range in regards to the cut. If seen issues with depth and pavillion angles mostly that Fred would say to stay away from that others say are OK.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Mthom I am an Aussie and have no competitors axe to grind.
But I do not like unethical behaviour in our industry, and so far every story I heard did not support FC''s behaviour.
He has also never bothered to come here and defend himself - even though he comes up #3 on a Google search - although there have been shill''s here from time to time (many people are discussing the possability that you are one).

I can not think of a reason to trust him.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

If you do a search here with WARPED DIAMOND you get pages of stuff.
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/not-warped-or-is-it-just-hidden.13318/= this is the best one - a stone with the proportions you listed (maybe this is your stone?)
The angles are averages - and the stone probabaly varies from 28 to 40 degree crown angle - note the wobbly green line - it is a girdle profile and should be about the same thickness and a flat line.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 1/31/2006 7:12:47 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 1/31/2006 2:22:57 PM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 1/31/2006 1:44:31 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 1/31/2006 4:43:59 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 1/31/2006 3:57:02 AM
Author: mthom
You''d also think that if Fred or DCI were shady, someone ... at least one person ... would have filed a Better Business Bureau complaint in the last 3 YEARS. No complaints filed. Check it for yourself.

Bottom line is, it''s hard to swallow the trash talking here, when it''s got nothing to back it up.

Thank you for posting the document but wait a minute.... no one is talking trash here, I asked a simple question with no hidden meaning as I wanted to learn about this cash refund offer - if it is true then it is indeed a good deal as no other vendors I know of offer this. Please don''t accuse me or my fellow posters, many of whom are experts and professionals in the diamond industry of '' talking trash'' when you have only been here for a couple of days, opinions here should be expressed respectfully please.

hey Lorelei

i always wanted to ask you...do you talk trash with a British accent?

i love girls that talk with a British accent

so cute.

Yes I do talk trash with a British accent DF and a whole lot else besides

Lorelei will you marry me?

Love to, then I would get that lovely 3.34 puppy on my finger too!!

 

[perry]

I couldn''t sleep so I logged in and saw the question concerning Fred Cuellar and your search for information on his conviction.

As Capital Bill pointed out - you state that FC won his appeal of his conviction.

From the October 2000 Supreme Court Journal (Page 80; which is page 88 of 1028 page pdf file).

No. 00–105. Hector A. Cuellar, aka Fred Cuellar, Petitioner v. Texas.
Petition for writ of certiorari to the Court of Appeals of Texas, First
District, denied.

Here is the link to the pdf document.

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20020745/www.supremecourtus.gov/orders/journal/jnl00.pdf


How do you win if the US Supreme Court turns you down.

Who told you he won on appeal?

So back to the issue with Fred Cuellar and "Bonded Diamonds." Business people get my business and my recomendations on the basis of trust. Everyone starts with an assumed degree of trust and their actions then determine if I continue to trust them, or don''t trust them.

Every time I seem to hear the name Fred Cuellar and do some digging I seem to find actions that do not seem to support my trusting him. I do not believe the information in his book is fair - and I see it as not teaching a person to ask the right questions to protect themselves but instead to ask a series of "loaded" questions that can lead people astray. I do not believe in "warped" diamonds. I believe claiming that his diamonds are "bonded" is a lie. The term bonded has a specific legal meaning in most states (although I will admit that I have not checked out Texas State Law - but I have known contractors who work in Texas and have to get bonds - real ones - within the meaning they have elsewhere).

Concerning his conviction - was this just an investment that went bad - or was there more to it than that. I doubt that he would have been convicted if it was only an investment gone bad based soley on the fact that the lab he used disagreed by one grade in color and clarity with the lab the client used. In fac, if I remember correctly GIA recently won in court when the difference was, I believe, several grades in color.

Bottom line: I don''t trust Fred Cuellar.

That''s the deal.

Now of course this is my personal opinion based on my personal standards and my research.

You are free to have another opinoin and other standards.

Perry

 

[mthom]

I guess I just haven''t heard anything to not trust him ... but I do hear the fact that many think his sales tactics are not friendly to fellow dealers. But I still see it as him having more strict guidelines. Now, if I find any examples where he''s preaching one thing and selling another, I''d understand ... and I think that''s everyone''s contention so far ... they are skeptical that he lives up to his own rules. I can buy that criticism, if I can find some examples.

I do have a warping question Garry. I read the description on this site, and your post about if girdle is always measured at it''s thickest point, then no one will complain about warping anymore. On the example on this site they said that if girdle has measured this way FC''s calculation would work. Is this because the measurements would all be taken from the same spot? Otherwise it seems like the avg girdle would be better.

Personally, now that I know too much ... I''d want to see a full diagram of all the angles now and the full range for the girdle.

Let''s say a diamond is warped - different crown / pavillion angles ... in your experience, how much of an effect could this have as far as brilliance/leakage?

By the way ... do you think if I stick around long enough FC will put me on the payroll?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

its home time - this is the first fast image I could find.

Did you read my other post - many posted at the same time

all the explanations are in several other threads - so not going to repeat them- and plenty of examples of people who had found very fine diamonds being told they were warped.

No one else but Fred uses that term.

It is a false and misleading statement - it is a deliberate missleading invention (can you read lips?)

View attachment Girdle cheatingSkind.jpg

 

[mthom]

Thanks Perry for the link ... "Hector" ... that''s a good reason to have another first name or nickname (so you can use the real ones in lawsuits)

And Garry - thanks for the posting on warping ... I''ll check it too ... didn''t see it before I posted last.

Perry - as I read the Texas case (and I couldn''t tell who was buying and who was selling), but it seemed to be a dispute over a 5% "non-refundable" deposit for a $13.4 M set of two diamonds. The sale fell through, the back-ups, his Saudi Royal family connections didn''t bail him out by taking the diamonds and Fred didn''t refund the deposit ... the way I read it was that it came down to investment vs. purchase and whether you could really have a non-refundable deposit. I''m going to read your link to see if it has more detail.

So besides the 3 items I listed earlier ... any other reasons to not trust him come up in your digging? If only there were official complaints, confirmed bad stones, something tangible.

I admit that I''m coming from a different perspective ... he made a very good first impression when I met with him in Houston (and he didn''t even get a purchase out of me until over 2 years later), but he spent quite a bit of time with me just on diamonds in general, relationships, etc ... never any pressure to buy anything. I was actually surprised once when he tried to convince me to go down in size on a stone I was looking for. I guess I just never felt like he was trying to push anything on me or squeeze me out of more money. So that''s where I''m coming from, and now would have to be convinced not to trust him.