Fully bonded diamond:

[mthom]

I agree with the independent appraisal, and on the my next pruchase or upgrade I''ll do that. If I had done it, this discussion would be easier to close (no matter how it turned out). But as I said ... I''m just not going to bring my wife into this picture when she''s absolutely happy with her ring.

What I was hoping to find (since everyone is so convinced of it) is an example where someone has done what you have recommended, and what the outcomes were. No ones come forth with any good examples.

For the record, my friend that recommended me to FC, before I had met him or read the book, did get his stone appraised and it was as stated. His stone was less than a carat but just a grade below flawless in clarity and color. So he did want to get it checked out, and he was very happy.

So, after getting the ring already set, and having good recommendations, I didn''t have it appraised.

Which brings up a good question ... what % of customers being from a vendor here get their stone independently appraised. Don''t you think most get their stone set and just rely on the lab reports provided. That''s my bet. So, most customers but a certain amount of trust in the dealer, and everyone who touches their stone. And apparently some of those that have gone to an appraiser have had issues with at least some of the vendors here (given the BBB complaints related to product quality).

You''d think that I consumer that had been slighted by FC in a purchase would do a few things ... do more research and find and post on these forums, file a complaint with the BBB, and publicize their concerns.

That''s why when reading these forums, I say to myself "These guys must have some proof of this ... I''ll ask ... after all I''m a customer and would be interested"

But what I''ve gotten is talk ... admittedly that''s all I can offer on my side too ...

Does PS advertise the GIA Scandal in a consumer advisory anywhere? I only saw it through a search in the forum. When I just checked on DCI''s site, they put the article in their list. Does anyone think that keeping consumers from knowing about the problems at GIA is protecting them.

And I agree that other evaluating labs are out there, but I have yet to see anyone on these forums say "I''d rather go with AGS or IGI becuase GIA has issues right now ..." when a consumer asks. It''s a little too late when someone brings up the scandal first.

 

[mthom]

And this is how GIA defends itself in the lawsuits:

The motion also stated that each grading report contains limitations on both use and GIA liability. Finally, it notes that, "statements regarding such subjective criteria [the color and clarity of the diamonds] can only constitute non-actionable statements of opinion."

Buyer Beware!

Take the advice given here ... independent appraisal. I will next time.

The more I read the more deception I find ... so do you think that FC''s book really tried to overly scare consumers, when this kind of stuff comes out? These articles and the shoddy defense makes my more worried than Fred''s book did.

 

[mrssalvo]

The GIA scandel was stuck on the top page of Rocky Talky for quite a while. It''s been discussed and disected. People do care and it is another reason to have your stones checked out. I don''t know how many people do nor do a care. I do and that''s what matters to me. You keep stating the vendors BBB records but as I said earlier the ones with the complaints are not ones that get recommended here often, if at all. The trusted vendors are trusted because they are earned in by countless examples of people having their purchases verfied independantly. Their track record means something as does FC''s lack of complaints means a huge deal to you. We won''t know the answer until someone with a FC stone offers to send it to and indepentant appraiser. hopefully someone will step up to the challenge and we can put this long drawn out thread to rest

 

[sylvesterii]

you won't find people who purchased from FC talking about the stats of their diamonds, because they have no idea what they are, they were never given them. Most people in the world do not ask for them. That is not necessarily the end of the world, but you can't make statements regarding how "great" somebody is because information about their stones is completely absent. ignorant bliss would never lead most people to question it.

Now, i don't have any experience with fred, or DCI personally, though I almost got suckered in. What he does know may not be the same as stealing the $1M that he did in the past, and may be legal (who knows), but scare tactics and making things up isn't right in my book.



Theives and con artits thrive off of charisma and making people beleive them, and then following the criminal into the fire. If you asked most people who have been swindled, they will tell you that they beleived the swindler until after the ship was already sinking.

The GIA scandal has been talked about WAY more than Fred has ever been talked about.

and to a point you made above...The Supreme Court of the United States does not only decide issues as they pertain to the constitution. They are the highest federal court in the nation, and will deal with any federal case on appeal regardless of if it is constitutionally challenged or not. I don't know the details of the appeal in this situation, but I am guessing that his lawyers though of some way to bring it, who knows. Looks like it didn't concern the court enough, since writ was denied.

 

[dhog]

Date: 2/2/2006 2:54:12 PM
Author: mthom
What I was hoping to find (since everyone is so convinced of it) is an example where someone has done what you have recommended, and what the outcomes were. No ones come forth with any good examples.


For the record, my friend that recommended me to FC, before I had met him or read the book, did get his stone appraised and it was as stated. His stone was less than a carat but just a grade below flawless in clarity and color. So he did want to get it checked out, and he was very happy.


So, after getting the ring already set, and having good recommendations, I didn''t have it appraised.


Which brings up a good question ... what % of customers being from a vendor here get their stone independently appraised. Don''t you think most get their stone set and just rely on the lab reports provided. That''s my bet. So, most customers but a certain amount of trust in the dealer, and everyone who touches their stone. And apparently some of those that have gone to an appraiser have had issues with at least some of the vendors here (given the BBB complaints related to product quality).

You''d think that I consumer that had been slighted by FC in a purchase would do a few things ... do more research and find and post on these forums, file a complaint with the BBB, and publicize their concerns.


That''s why when reading these forums, I say to myself ''These guys must have some proof of this ... I''ll ask ... after all I''m a customer and would be interested''


But what I''ve gotten is talk ... admittedly that''s all I can offer on my side too ...


Does PS advertise the GIA Scandal in a consumer advisory anywhere? I only saw it through a search in the forum. When I just checked on DCI''s site, they put the article in their list. Does anyone think that keeping consumers from knowing about the problems at GIA is protecting them.


And I agree that other evaluating labs are out there, but I have yet to see anyone on these forums say ''I''d rather go with AGS or IGI becuase GIA has issues right now ...'' when a consumer asks. It''s a little too late when someone brings up the scandal first.

For a 14,000.00 internet purchase I must have trusted the dealer enough to ship me the stone.

After I received the stone I took it to a GG friend of mine and asked him for a full sarin report without him looking at any other documentation that I had for help in determining
if it was indeed the stone that I purchased.

I now have 1 AGS DQD,1 PARTIAL SARIN REPORT,and 2 full SARIN reports from 4 different sources to back up the stone.Would I buy from this dealer again,yes in a heartbeat.

would I retest the next stones that I buy,the rules shouldn''t change after the first time.

BY using other sources to validate your purchases you not only protect yourself but you also eliminate room for some people to sneak one by you.

trust in the industry is something that is earned and somthing for dealers to charish.

sour apples is something a dealer/and or lab has to live with forever and GIA is no different.

 

[icefisher]

Date: 2/2/2006 2:54:12 PM
Author: mthom

So, after getting the ring already set, and having good recommendations, I didn''t have it appraised.

Which brings up a good question ... what % of customers being from a vendor here get their stone independently appraised. Don''t you think most get their stone set and just rely on the lab reports provided. That''s my bet. So, most customers but a certain amount of trust in the dealer, and everyone who touches their stone. And apparently some of those that have gone to an appraiser have had issues with at least some of the vendors here (given the BBB complaints related to product quality).

Purely a guess but judging from the number and length of threads on the topic, I''d bet quite a few people get the independent appraisal.

I know I did for my wife''s ring, even as helpful and friendly as WF was. I''ve never gotten out of my head what an old Chicago journalism prof drummed in years ago, "If your mother says she loves you, check it out."

 

[mthom]

Well said mrssalvo ... that sums it up. Sorry I missed the GIA discussion ... I made it here after the hoopla died down I guess. You are right that there are certainly trusted vendors here, and I''m sure some of the appraisers here have verified them. As one of the appraisers mentioned, I know they can''t reveal who''s diamonds they appraise for clients, and I respect that.

I hope someone can bring up a good example ... the only things I''ve seen are new potential customers come on the forum, ask a question about DCI and then 4 or five posts about the lawsuit to drive them away from DCI and to the vendors here. And I hadn''t seen new customer posts and any warnings about GIA (although I do agree the suggestion of independent appraisal is given) as Fred gives too ... most, like me, don''t do it. That''s our mistake.

Sylvesterii - you''re right on the Supreme Court ... I could have sworn I heard someone make that claim on a news show lately ... but they can hear any case for law interpretation ... but not decide the cases on their merits ... just the rules of law.

So ... so far I''ve only seen one potentially confirmed FC diamond (I guess the appraiser in this case didn''t mind sharing it) ... can ANYONE evaluate it. Check out the second report of the stone that''s posted ... is there something wrong with it?

Date: 2/1/2006 2:44:41 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
If you do a search here with WARPED DIAMOND you get pages of stuff.
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/not-warped-or-is-it-just-hidden.13318/= this is the best one - a stone with the proportions you listed (maybe this is your stone?)
The angles are averages - and the stone probabaly varies from 28 to 40 degree crown angle - note the wobbly green line - it is a girdle profile and should be about the same thickness and a flat line.

 

[mthom]

Date: 2/2/2006 3:51:09 PM
Author: icefisher

I know I did for my wife''s ring, even as helpful and friendly as WF was. I''ve never gotten out of my head what an old Chicago journalism prof drummed in years ago, ''If your mother says she loves you, check it out.''

I LOVE IT! Nice quote. As I said ... I agree and will do that in the future.

dhog - good job too ... I know that''s what I should have done at the time, but as I said I trusted what I got, especially with the appearance of it compared to others ... and I also had my friend, who did do the appraisal with an FC stone and got it confirmed.

I promise that when I upgrade to a larger stone one of these days ... I''ll make sure and post the results here ... that will tell us both how the bonding went and the analysis of the new stone. Until then, I''ll just have to rely on my wife''s happiness (as flimsy as it is for proof ... but I guess her happiness is what I was going for anyway).

 

[dhog]

I promise that when I upgrade to a larger stone one of these days ... I''ll make sure and post the results here ... that will tell us both how the bonding went and the analysis of the new stone. Until then, I''ll just have to rely on my wife''s happiness (as flimsy as it is for proof ... but I guess her happiness is what I was going for anyway).[/quote]

It really is all about what makes you and your wife happy that counts
the most.My wife went 15 years with no diamond ring and now she wont even let me see it long enough to try and take more photo''s.before you upgrade you should really take these folks up on their offer to get it appraised as you might be surprised and take the money including my 300
heres a photo of my wifes ring for ya.although it may suffer from warpage she could care less.

 

[mthom]

dhog - that''s my dilema too ... she''s not letting me have that thing for more than two seconds. It was all I could do to get pictures of it the other night.

Your''s, my friend, is a BEAUTIFUL ring!!! My wife wanted a wider band setting for her wedding band, but I always preferred to smaller ones ... but I love the way yours looks. Simple and elegant.

What sizes are the stones in the band?

I''ll definitely take everyone up on the offer when I upgrade. Even then, she doesn''t want to give up her original stone ... so maybe it will just be another purchase (but I''ll at least get a quote on what trade-in value would be, since that''s been a question here.

I dug this thread up after 3 years ... I guess I''ll do it again one of these days.

 

[mthom]

I was looking back at threads around konamonroe''s stone from DCI (a precursor to the one thread that Garry linked to) ... and I was LMAO when I say the comments from everyone on GIA being so stellar, double blind grading, no way they grade soft, etc.

All in response to konamonroe''s legit question of "if the labs get paid by the dealers, they inherently have an incentive to grade soft in order to get more business"

Here''s the thread ... A few short months later and the truth about GIA operations are exposed.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/diamond-cutter-international-dci.12998/page-2

Very entertaining.

 

[mthom]

OK, since no one responded to what''s wrong with the stone Garry posted the link about ... I finally figured it out seeing his post in the other thread. The crown angle and height do not match. Not good.

I wonder why konamonroe didn''t post the end result, either the docs were forged at some point, either by FC or someone trying to make it appear that FC did this.

Two things stood out ... why didn''t KM follow-up ... why the Todd say that KM wasn''t the one who sent the doc to them (the dates on the doc matched with KM''s postings ... if the full Mega Scope was done the day before KM made his first post) ... Hmmm that sounds odd too ... I guess they could have set it and gotten it to him in a day.

Now, I''m very curious ... this is the kind of example I was looking for.

What''s the pot up to now?

 

[princessv]

Now this, I can''t help you with mthom. The only way to figure out the discrepancy would be to get your stone appraised loose. Hope things work out!

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 2/2/2006 2:54:12 PM
Author: mthom
I agree with the independent appraisal, and on the my next pruchase or upgrade I''ll do that. If I had done it, this discussion would be easier to close (no matter how it turned out). But as I said ...I''m just not going to bring my wife into this picture when she''s absolutely happy with her ring.

Well, that''s quite convenient to your position, so I expect that. If you check around here, many folks make an appointment with their appraiser and have it appraised while they wait. Many get quite an education from their appraisers while there! Your wife wouldn''t have to part with the ring. In fact, if she didn''t want to sit through the appraisal, you could even take her to lunch considering how sure you are that you''d win the bet (and still have money left over.) But....of course....there''s always the risk/fear that the ring won''t appraise as well as you hoped, isn''t there....and maybe then she wouldn''t be so happy.

I can see where it''s more appealing to put one''s head in the sand.....what you don''t know can''t hurt you.

What I was hoping to find (since everyone is so convinced of it) is an example where someone has done what you have recommended, and what the outcomes were. No ones come forth with any good examples.

For the record, my friend that recommended me to FC, before I had met him or read the book, did get his stone appraised and it was as stated. His stone was less than a carat but just a grade below flawless in clarity and color. So he did want to get it checked out, and he was very happy.

So, after getting the ring already set, and having good recommendations, I didn''t have it appraised.

I see. Hey, by chance, did your friend happen to ask that appraiser to verify that his diamond was indeed *unwarped*? I''m guessing no, because any independent appraiser worth his loupe would have to then point out that there is no such thing as a warped diamond. Did the appraiser simply verify the stone''s color/clarity, or did he give cut grade information? Again, I''m leaning toward thinking "no cut grade". Just a wild hunch.

Which brings up a good question ... what % of customers being from a vendor here get their stone independently appraised. Don''t you think most get their stone set and just rely on the lab reports provided. That''s my bet.

Well, sorry.......if you''re talking about PSers, you''d be wrong with that bet. Most of the folks here do get independent appraisals....even WITH documentation from a trustworthy lab......and nearly ALWAYS if even remotely considering an stone with no independent grading report. Doubt it? Just do a little search on the word "appraisal", and you''ll see that nearly everyone here gets independent appraisals at LEAST on their e-ring stones.

We bought my e-ring stone from a very trusted vendor here with tons of satisfied customers.....but of course I still had it appraised! I''m not relying on some other yo-yo to decide who I should consider trustworthy - I''ll decide that for myself. Trust, but verify. Once I had a good experience with them, I bought earrings and a pendant. All came with grading reports from stringent labs, so I didn''t have those appraised. But if I were to trade my e-ring stone today and buy another from the same vendor I''ve bought from five times now....I''d STILL independently appraise. Not becuase I don''t trust them...not at all....but because with a stone of that importance and value, I''d be FOOLISH not to.

I''d point out that you''d have lost that bet, and I really hope your bet that your stone was fine based on someone else''s experience would turn out a bit better.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 2/2/2006 3:51:09 PM
Author: icefisher

Date: 2/2/2006 2:54:12 PM
Author: mthom

So, after getting the ring already set, and having good recommendations, I didn''t have it appraised.

Which brings up a good question ... what % of customers being from a vendor here get their stone independently appraised. Don''t you think most get their stone set and just rely on the lab reports provided. That''s my bet. So, most customers but a certain amount of trust in the dealer, and everyone who touches their stone. And apparently some of those that have gone to an appraiser have had issues with at least some of the vendors here (given the BBB complaints related to product quality).

Purely a guess but judging from the number and length of threads on the topic, I''d bet quite a few people get the independent appraisal.

I know I did for my wife''s ring, even as helpful and friendly as WF was. I''ve never gotten out of my head what an old Chicago journalism prof drummed in years ago, ''If your mother says she loves you, check it out.''

AMEN.

 

[plg_cp]

Date: 2/2/2006 4:03:29 PM
Author: mthom
I hope someone can bring up a good example ... the only things I''ve seen are new potential customers come on the forum, ask a question about DCI and then 4 or five posts about the lawsuit to drive them away from DCI and to the vendors here...

So ... so far I''ve only seen one potentially confirmed FC diamond ...

mthom,
IMO, the reason no one can provide you with examples of FC diamonds (other than KM) is because his customers typically aren''t interested enough in diamonds to ever find PS.

For my part, the first thing I did when starting my quest for an e-ring diamond was go to the public library. I borrowed FC''s book and initially took his warnings to heart. Being the type of person to spent a lot of effort researching, I then turned to the internet, quickly set aside FC''s advice and certainly never considered purchasing from him.

Now, the average Joe buying an engagement ring may perhaps have seen FC on TV or in print and maybe seen his heavily marketed book. But Joe Average probably does not go to the effort of in-depth research, otherwise he would quickly have read many negative things about FC that would make him say "why should I bother taking a chance on someone who''s clearly very shady?"

In other words, the lack of PS members to point to with experience with FC may be due to the fact that those two things are often mutually exclusive.

Mark

 

[Dancing Fire]

Alj

i hate to say it, but in this case i agree with you 110%.

 

[dhog]

Date: 2/2/2006 3:00:57 PM
Author: mthom
Buyer Beware!


Take the advice given here ... independent appraisal. I will next time.


The more I read the more deception I find ... so do you think that FC''s book really tried to overly scare consumers, when this kind of stuff comes out? These articles and the shoddy defense makes my more worried than Fred''s book did.

so how does FC know if the stone in your ring is the one
that he sold you that is covered for a lifetime tradeup??

what proof do you have that he didn''t use some of his great deception tactics on you.

what happens if he accuses you of trying to pull a quick
one on him,after all he''s already been convicted of shady conduct
this proof is public record.

does FC laser inscribe the stones so that he can indentify
them for replacement???

now your probably wondering if he will honor the tradeup
or make up some excuse.

I don''t know him but stumbled across his web site awhile
back and it was obvious that he has a agenda and is trying
to use his book and his website to push his agenda,all one has to do is read his website for 5 minutes

while I honestly don''t no anything about diamonds like
you do its obvious that FC taught you very well.

I''m working hard to learn about diamonds and hope that
these folks here will help when i''m in over my head,but for now
im still swimming.

maybe if FC was really a cool and honest dude he would come
clean with his past and post all of his court procedings on his
websight instead of just GIA scandal.????

I don''t come here to make negetive posts about people
I just say it like I see it and remember it''s only one
persons opinion and its a big world out there.

 

[mthom]

All points well taken.

I am quite sure that the average poster here is more knowledgable about diamonds than the average Joe, but I also think the average DCI customer is more knowledgeable than the average Joe. Otherwise, the department store jewelry counters just wouldn''t exist. It would be interesting to see how many people buy from those jewelry stores.

A quick appraiser question ... does the stone have to be loose to be appraised and do most appraisers remove and re-set the stones?

I asked my wife again ... and she doesn''t want me to take it to an appraiser, because she (like me) is happy with it and comfortable with FC''s return policy.

All the deceptive tactics can certainly me used by FC, any dealer, appraiser, or anyone that you let have your diamond out of your site. I guess the only way to identify it is by being able to identify any inclusions (or as you said, laser inscribe). So, I guess the moral is to "know your stone"

FC does require annual inspections of your stone for the bonding agreement to stay in place, but I have to think that if anyone has ever tried to trade up or return a stone, if they weren''t happy with the results, their would be some complaints on BBB (which is really the only other piece of info I could go on). Even the stories here don''t talk about that piece of the process ... and you''d think they would want to post that ... I certainly would let the you and the BBB know if I got screwed like that.

So that still puts questions in my head about what''s really going on. Are these mega scope docs legit (and who doctored them, FC or someone trying to prove FC is no good).

I''m sure if you went to an appraiser, got a bad result, and tried to return, FC could always make the argument that the appraiser scammed you ... how do the other dealers or appraisers guard against that ... customers claiming you scammed them by switching stones?

I know FC will send your stone to an appraiser of your choice ... maybe I''ll do that on my next annual check-up, and see what happens.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 2/3/2006 2:22:14 AM
Author: Dancing Fire
Alj

i hate to say it, but in this case i agree with you 110%.

*GASP*......I must be doing something wrong then!

Just kidding, DF......

Glad to see we agree on this one.

 

[pricescope]

Just FYI - recent article in National Jeweler: Gemologists urged to double-check grading reports

"Speaking to attendees of the Accredited Gemologists Association conference, C.R. “Cap” Beesley, president of the American Gemological Laboratories in New York, said it is crucial that gem grading reports be verified by a gemologist, and if need be, challenged."

 

[dhog]

Date: 2/3/2006 4:12:56 PM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 2/3/2006 2:22:14 AM

Author: Dancing Fire

Alj

i hate to say it, but in this case i agree with you 110%.

*GASP*......I must be doing something wrong then!

Just kidding, DF......

Glad to see we agree on this one.

I Think its time for me to get out of this muddy water,trolling is not one of my better fishing technique''s,and its starting to smell real fishy as I expected from the start.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 2/3/2006 5:40:02 PM
Author: dhog

Date: 2/3/2006 4:12:56 PM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 2/3/2006 2:22:14 AM

Author: Dancing Fire

Alj

i hate to say it, but in this case i agree with you 110%.

*GASP*......I must be doing something wrong then!

Just kidding, DF......

Glad to see we agree on this one.

I Think its time for me to get out of this muddy water,trolling is not one of my better fishing technique''s,and its starting to smell real fishy as I expected from the start.

Heh - back story might help on this, Dhog.

In the 3 years I''ve been here, DF and I seldom agree, so it''s like the proverbial "once in a blue moon" when we do.....that''s all.

And the point we agreed on: It''s an enormous risk to forgo an independent appraisal on a stone with no grading report. It *might* not end badly, but it has huge potential to, and it just doesn''t seem worth the risk when it''s so easy to mitigate that risk with a simple appraisal.

 

[Dancing Fire]

dhog

yep....me and Alj been in the boxing ring quite a few times

and my record vs Alj?...0-10

let me tell ya, Alj is one of the greatest debater of our time, her only loss was to "david DBL" when she finally cry "UNCLE"

i was in shock!!!. i guess

once in a while even the GREATEST has a bad day. LOL...